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Thread: What has Damntoni Done?

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    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Yikes. I stopped reading after this sentence, because whatever credibility you had died with the end of it. If this is really what you believe then I think you need to take a step back and reconsider your life. Isiah was the worst thing to happen to NY basketball since ever. Say what you want about D'Antoni, he isn't feuding with his best player, when he did feud with Marbury D'Antoni never went public (like Isiah), Isiah caused this team total and utter embarassment, he traded away picks like it was going out of style, had a sexual harassment suit.

    D'Antoni could run over my dog, he would still be better than Isiah.
    It doesn't matter if Isiah is worse than D'antoni,D'antoni still should get fired.

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    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    It doesn't matter if Isiah is worse than D'antoni,D'antoni still should get fired.
    I agree that it doesn't matter if Isiah is worse (he is) - D'Antoni should be judged on his own wholly separate from any other coach, but I didn't bring Isiah up in this discussion. Someone else brought in the comparison...

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    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Responses from other people I have showed this quote to:

    Originally Posted by knicksin60
    (Mike D'Antoni) makes Isiah Thomas look like Red Holzman
    "That is such an absurd comment it's mind boggling"

    "That's beyond ridiculous...beyond it"

    "That's insanity"

    "Well, that's the silliest thing I've ever read."

    "You know my feelings about Mike D'Antoni, I think he can't coach defense...but saying he is that much worse than Isiah? Hilarious."

  4. #34
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    I made these points in other threads but they are worth mentioning again:

    Felton is having a career year due to the system and the coaching D'ant is known for when it comes to PG's. Our record closely reflects Felton's production, in the beginning of the year Felton struggled being new to the system and the record reflected that. Once he settled down and produced, we were one of the hottest teams in the league. Now that Felton had an injury and is in a slump we are struggling once again. Had Felton been putting up his historical numbers the entire year I doubt we would be the 6th seed and I doubt we would have a winning record.

    So my first answer to the thread title is that D'antoni has turned Felton from a mediocre PG to an all-star caliber PG. In a league dominated by teams with multiple stars having 1.5 stars (Amare and Felton) is the bare minimum in order to compete. This is the first year Felton is in this system and it is already paying dividends. As Felton matures and fully acclimates to NYC, the system and the players you can expect his numbers to go up even more. Felton has all the talent and athletic gifts to be a consistent all-star and top tier PG and now has the system to allow him to do so.

    D'antoni is also getting career years out of Chandler, Amare and Williams another important factor to consider when thinking where this team could have been under another coach.

    He recognized early, instilled confidence and started Feilds, a 2nd round pick who is easily now a top 3 rookie as a result.

    This is the 1st year D'ant had a roster capable of competing and we are still max money away form a complete roster so to damn D'antoni and make any conclusions now is premature, irrational and shows a lack of understanding about the game of basketball. Again, as this is such an important point, our roster is incomplete and we are looking to add another max contract caliber player along with filling role player needs through trades and exemptions. D'ant has us exactly where we should be, the 6th seed. Every single team ahead of us has a factually better and deeper roster with more than one star. To think that bringing in another coach would magically catapult us past these better teams is moronic.

    My last points are so obvious but evidently need to be stated...bringing in a defensive coach will not make this team play anywhere near elite defense! Our roster is built for SSOL and up tempo ball and D'ant is the best coach possible for the current roster. We have gotten our wins buy playing our style of ball and exploiting our speed, spreading the floor and knocking down shots. When we lose it's because other teams are able to slow the game down and exploit our lack of size and depth. If you think our lack of size or depth is a problem now, try bringing in a half court set coach to try and bang down low in a slowed down conventional offense! Getting rid of D'ant without drastically changing our roster only 1/2 year into phase one of our rebuilding plan would be idiotic and short sided.

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    is the Bo$$ Toons's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I made these points in other threads but they are worth mentioning again:

    Felton is having a career year due to the system and the coaching D'ant is known for when it comes to PG's. Our record closely reflects Felton's production, in the beginning of the year Felton struggled being new to the system and the record reflected that. Once he settled down and produced, we were one of the hottest teams in the league. Now that Felton had an injury and is in a slump we are struggling once again. Had Felton been putting up his historical numbers the entire year I doubt we would be the 6th seed and I doubt we would have a winning record.

    So my first answer to the thread title is that D'antoni has turned Felton from a mediocre PG to an all-star caliber PG. In a league dominated by teams with multiple stars having 1.5 stars (Amare and Felton) is the bare minimum in order to compete. This is the first year Felton is in this system and it is already paying dividends. As Felton matures and fully acclimates to NYC, the system and the players you can expect his numbers to go up even more. Felton has all the talent and athletic gifts to be a consistent all-star and top tier PG and now has the system to allow him to do so.

    D'antoni is also getting career years out of Chandler, Amare and Williams another important factor to consider when thinking where this team could have been under another coach.

    He recognized early, instilled confidence and started Feilds, a 2nd round pick who is easily now a top 3 rookie as a result.

    This is the 1st year D'ant had a roster capable of competing and we are still max money away form a complete roster so to damn D'antoni and make any conclusions now is premature, irrational and shows a lack of understanding about the game of basketball. Again, as this is such an important point, our roster is incomplete and we are looking to add another max contract caliber player along with filling role player needs through trades and exemptions. D'ant has us exactly where we should be, the 6th seed. Every single team ahead of us has a factually better and deeper roster with more than one star. To think that bringing in another coach would magically catapult us past these better teams is moronic.

    My last points are so obvious but evidently need to be stated...bringing in a defensive coach will not make this team play anywhere near elite defense! Our roster is built for SSOL and up tempo ball and D'ant is the best coach possible for the current roster. We have gotten our wins buy playing our style of ball and exploiting our speed, spreading the floor and knocking down shots. When we lose it's because other teams are able to slow the game down and exploit our lack of size and depth. If you think our lack of size or depth is a problem now, try bringing in a half court set coach to try and bang down low in a slowed down conventional offense! Getting rid of D'ant without drastically changing our roster only 1/2 year into phase one of our rebuilding plan would be idiotic and short sided.
    good points.
    a new coach isnt gonna make guys play defense, these are nba players, they know the concept of defense. Our team is young, and by the 3rd quarter their legs get tired and they stop playing the full court defense that they do in the first quarter.

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    Originally Posted by Toons
    good points.
    a new coach isnt gonna make guys play defense, these are nba players, they know the concept of defense. Our team is young, and by the 3rd quarter their legs get tired and they stop playing the full court defense that they do in the first quarter.
    Thanks, I think it's less about effort and more about the roster as currently constructed. We have a 14 million dollar hole in our roster from a useless Curry gobbling burgers on the bench and no elite defenders. The people blaming D'ant for our defense while ignoring our roster are just silly.

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Default I only read the last part.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    bringing in a defensive coach will not make this team play anywhere near elite defense! Our roster is built for SSOL and up tempo ball and D'ant is the best coach possible for the current roster. We have gotten our wins by playing our style of ball and exploiting our speed, spreading the floor and knocking down shots.

    When we lose it's because other teams are able to slow the game down and exploit our lack of size and depth. If you think our lack of size or depth is a problem now, try bringing in a half court set coach to try and bang down low in a slowed down conventional offense! Getting rid of D'ant without drastically changing our roster only 1/2 year into phase one of our rebuilding plan would be idiotic and short sided.
    I don't necessarily agree that the roster is built for the SSOL. Often, in fact, we run a motion offence 3/2 with a high 4 as we all know. In that situation, without effective ball movement, it's STAT or Felton who take a lot of the shots. This also subtracts from Gallo's playmaking game, which as far as I see it, is stupid.


    bringing in a half court set coach to try and bang down low in a slowed down conventional offense! Getting rid of D'ant without drastically changing our roster only 1/2 year into phase one of our rebuilding plan would be idiotic and short sided.
    Often, and I'm sure you'll agree, our offence has floundered under the weight of its own flaws. We wouldn't need to convert to a slowed down, bang down low, conventional offence with another coach, but it's not something we couldn't add to our offence. The absence of a back to the basket, power drop/power v set in MD's offence has always been beyond me. One of the top 3 paint scorers in recent history on our squad, and we constantly play a high elbow face up set for STAT? How predictable are we?

    And a post game is easily incorporated in to transition. That goes without saying! Incorporating spacing, dummy cuts and screens for Amar'e in transition to get his opponent closed out is something I've never seen and always wondered about. Alvin Gentry used it very effectively in the playoffs last year. I didn't watch any Suns regular season games so I can't comment on them.

    We have gotten our wins by playing our style of ball and exploiting our speed, spreading the floor and knocking down shots.
    But we've gotten our losses from it as well. IMO, it's a predictable offence that suffers against high level defence, UNLESS we hit more than 12 3 pointers in a game. If we do, our record is 11-1: almost half of our total wins. But again, that's evidence of our offence being easily anticipated.

    I'd like to see what we're capable of with a new head coach next year, while still incorporating facets of the current offence. Why? Basically, I think the D'Antoni philosophy is reliant on its components, and MD is completely reliant on the philosophy and unwilling to adjust if the components aren't perfectly compatible, thus making him incompatible for his own roster.

    And then there's defence..........

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    Originally Posted by Toons
    good points.
    a new coach isnt gonna make guys play defense, these are nba players, they know the concept of defense. Our team is young, and by the 3rd quarter their legs get tired and they stop playing the full court defense that they do in the first quarter.
    Our second unit plays more full court D than our starters. One of the biggest non-factors about our defensive abilities is our communication as well. Defensive cohesion needs as much practice as offensive.

    Would you say that we just have bad defensive players?

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    Often, and I'm sure you'll agree, our offence has floundered under the weight of its own flaws. We wouldn't need to convert to a slowed down, bang down I don't necessarily agree that the roster is built for the SSOL. Often, in fact, we run a motion offence 3/2 with a high 4 as we all know. In that situation, without effective ball movement, it's STAT or Felton who take a lot of the shots. This also subtracts from Gallo's playmaking game, which as far as I see it, is stupid.low, conventional offence with another coach, but it's not something we couldn't add to our offence. The absence of a back to the basket, power drop/power v set in MD's offence has always been beyond me. One of the top 3 paint scorers in recent history on our squad, and we constantly play a high elbow face up set for STAT? How predictable are we?
    Well, I think we can agree that we are not built for a half court offense considering our size and depth issues. For the most part we move the ball quite effectively and when we were hot we were one of the league leaders in assists.

    See, I look at it the other way around...it's our offense and system that allows us to win games and overachieve above the lack of size, second star and depth of our roster. Yes, I agree when our 3 point shot is not falling or our ball movement is stagnant our offense is ineffective. When that happens it magnifies and highlights the deficiencies of our roster. No coach is going to make us better defenders or rebounder's without drastically changing the roster. These problems are a constant until the roster is improved therefore we need to have the type of high tempo, high scoring offense to compensate for our structural weaknesses.

    BTW, Amare is not a back to the basket player so why would we run an offense like that through him? It would be akin to playing Shaq on the perimeter.

    But we've gotten our losses from it as well. IMO, it's a predictable offence that suffers against high level defence, UNLESS we hit more than 12 3 pointers in a game. If we do, our record is 11-1: almost half of our total wins. But again, that's evidence of our offence being easily anticipated.
    See answer above.

    I'd like to see what we're capable of with a new head coach next year, while still incorporating facets of the current offence. Why? Basically, I think the D'Antoni philosophy is reliant on its components, and MD is completely reliant on the philosophy and unwilling to adjust if the components aren't perfectly compatible, thus making him incompatible for his own roster.

    And then there's defence..........
    You are entitled to want to see anything and that is fine but lets lay the blame where the blame is due. 90% roster/10% coach IMHO. I for one am excited to see a complete roster competing nightly in this system. Lets remember my other points about calls for change 1/2 a year into PHASE ONE of a TWO phase rebuild. Our roster and rebuild is incomplete so maybe it's not Melo but we have help coming.


    Obviously during losses nothing looks good and since we only are one game above .500 there is a lot to critique. That said, I think we are overarching from where most people including the "expert's" thought at the beginning of the season. We are the 6th seed and I can't name a single team ahead of us that does not have a better or deeper roster. D'ant has multiple guys playing the best ball of their careers so I fail to see how he or another coach could do more.

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    I kinda agree with you Trillion. We don't have a true SSOL roster. Hell Amare doesn't really have the help he needs for us to be more than a 6th seed.

    At the same time, i don't believe offense ever wins in the playoffs or in any sport for that matter. For an up tempo coach, D'Antoni also sure is stubborn. Putting players in permanent doghouses (because of their lack of offensive ability or athletic ability) and using such a short rotation. These are pretty big red flags. Blind loyalty is not necessarily the best quality in a leader.

    I would put D'Antoni on the hotseat if we barely make the playoffs. If we are a solid 6th seed i'll give him another year to see what happens.

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    Veteran knicksin60's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Yikes. I stopped reading after this sentence, because whatever credibility you had died with the end of it. If this is really what you believe then I think you need to take a step back and reconsider your life. Isiah was the worst thing to happen to NY basketball since ever. Say what you want about D'Antoni, he isn't feuding with his best player, when he did feud with Marbury D'Antoni never went public (like Isiah), Isiah caused this team total and utter embarassment, he traded away picks like it was going out of style, had a sexual harassment suit.

    D'Antoni could run over my dog, he would still be better than Isiah.

    I never said that Isiah Thomas was a great coach nor do I think that he was a good general manager and a good human being.I just feel that his coaching career has been ignored and misjudged due to all the negative circumstances that surrounded him while he was with the Knicks.If you look at his coaching record with the Pacers and his first year coaching the Knicks, you'll notice that he did a decent job.His last year with the Knicks was a disaster but could you really put the complete blame on him when headcases like Stephon Marbury, Quentin Richardson and Eddy Curry decided to quit on him? I don't think that even Phil Jackson could have kept those players' egos in check while motivating them to play with a winning attitude.

    Mike D'antoni is like Joe Torre, he never had a winning resume but happened to stumble upon the right team by given the right group of players to coach.After watching Alvin Gentry win 54 games with the Suns last year, it was evident that even Justin Bieber would have been successful with 2 hall of fame players running a team.Had the Suns not had the success that they did a few years ago, I don't think Knick fans would be defending this guy right now and he would just be another Tim Floyd.

    The only things that D'antoni has proven in his tenure with the Knicks is that he overplays players, throws his least favorite players under the bus, doesn't make defense a priority, and exempts himself from the poor play of his team.He's had two and a half seasons to prove himself and hasn't really improved this team in any shape or form.The Knicks have a top 5 superstar/MVP candidate as their centerpiece and they're in jeopardy of losing a playoff spot to teams that have less talent than them.How does something like that happen to a team? It happens, when less talented teams have coaches that emphasize defense while your team has a coach that doesn't care weather his team holds their opponent below a hundred points as long as 3 point shots are falling through the basket.

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    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksin60
    I never said that Isiah Thomas was a great coach nor do I think that he was a good general manager and a good human being.I just feel that his coaching career has been ignored and misjudged due to all the negative circumstances that surrounded him while he was with the Knicks.If you look at his coaching record with the Pacers and his first year coaching the Knicks, you'll notice that he did a decent job.His last year with the Knicks was a disaster but could you really put the complete blame on him when headcases like Stephon Marbury, Quentin Richardson and Eddy Curry decided to quit on him? I don't think that even Phil Jackson could have kept those players' egos in check while motivating them to play with a winning attitude.

    Mike D'antoni is like Joe Torre, he never had a winning resume but happened to stumble upon the right team by given the right group of players to coach.After watching Alvin Gentry win 54 games with the Suns last year, it was evident that even Justin Bieber would have been successful with 2 hall of fame players running a team.Had the Suns not had the success that they did a few years ago, I don't think Knick fans would be defending this guy right now and he would just be another Tim Floyd.

    The only things that D'antoni has proven in his tenure with the Knicks is that he overplays players, throws his least favorite players under the bus, doesn't make defense a priority, and exempts himself from the poor play of his team.He's had two and a half seasons to prove himself and hasn't really improved this team in any shape or form.The Knicks have a top 5 superstar/MVP candidate as their centerpiece and they're in jeopardy of losing a playoff spot to teams that have less talent than them.How does something like that happen to a team? It happens, when less talented teams have coaches that emphasize defense while your team has a coach that doesn't care weather his team holds their opponent below a hundred points as long as 3 point shots are falling through the basket.
    Any defense of Isiah's tenure in NY = Automatic fail.

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Any defense of Isiah's tenure in NY = Automatic fail.
    Tis truth. Nobody has been more toxic to any team and to make it worse he continues to whisper in Dolan's ear.

    Like I said before and furthering Trill's arguments, firing Dantoni isn't suddenly gonna make all our players dramatically improve on defense. Think any coach will suddenly make Amare into a rebounding defensive stopper who magically develops a low post game? Will Turiaf suddenly not be injured anymore and Mosgov turn into a seasoned Vet? We don't have any great rebounders. Will changing a coach change that?

    The system might be changed or tweaked, but with the absolute lack of any great coaches out there, it would be idiotic to just hire anybody who wouldn't have the players' respect. Once the players turn on Dantoni, then we have a problem, but for now its the best we've got, so shut up and cheer on your flawed team.

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    Let's just keep it real...I'd say this applies to 90% of the pringle gallery...They had their welcome worn out (again) in the anti-Gallo campaign. So a new straw man and target was needed to chew on daily, like a rabied canine to a dinosaur bone.

    It's great to actually discuss MDA/SSOL (a la crazy8s), but this **** is just pathetic and really doesn't even deserve a dignified response. About three things get said daily by the pringle gallery that would make a politician blush with shame...An impartial observer wouldn't need to look very far to take a (very) educated guess as to which side is ultimately most correct.

    The grand irony is the same flamers who try to flick sparks at MDA and the Knicks, are by and large the same people who said our team (ya know, the one D'antoni is being judged upon) was like a pee-wee basketball team that had estrogen-infused water in the game coolers.

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    Originally Posted by iSaYughh
    Let's just keep it real...I'd say this applies to 90% of the pringle gallery...They had their welcome worn out (again) in the anti-Gallo campaign. So a new straw man and target was needed to chew on daily, like a rabied canine to a dinosaur bone.

    It's great to actually discuss MDA/SSOL (a la crazy8s), but this **** is just pathetic and really doesn't even deserve a dignified response. About three things get said daily by the pringle gallery that would make a politician blush with shame...An impartial observer wouldn't need to look very far to take a (very) educated guess as to which side is ultimately most correct.

    The grand irony is the same flamers who try to flick sparks at MDA and the Knicks, are by and large the same people who said our team (ya know, the one D'antoni is being judged upon) was like a pee-wee basketball team that had estrogen-infused water in the game coolers.
    This comment is funny because it really is beyond me how anyone could support MDA's coaching style.

    Do you really believe with him as a coach, and an utter lack of defense, we can win a championship?

    If so, I just say, "wow..."

    This isn't a witch hunt against MDA, it's just truth. The Lakers and Celts have been the teams that they are because of defense... To believe that all of a sudden MDA is going to preach defense, and accept some defensive minded players into the rotation is wishful thinking in my opinion.

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