What has Damntoni Done?

KBlack25

Starter
What was Miami's so called "problem"? I'll tell you, getting talent to mesh together. Now if Boston has done it and Miami has done it so far, Why can't we? and they have bigger stars and Egos than we do.
I'm just saying if we were competing night in night out on a high level with real defensive and offensive schemes we wouldn't be 26-26:barf:. SHIT we have lost to all of the bottom feeders at least once.:barf:
You guys are happy because we are 6th seed in a weak EC,Mike D has caught various breaks with other teams Stars being out and a easy schedule. NOW it's starting to catch up on him and he is Scapegoating his way out:alert::alert::alert:. MELO is affecting us, the Trade Rumors. I didn't hear him bitching while he coached two seasons of less than 35 wins. :barf::barf::barf:

Your icons and bolding and changing the font are immature ploys used just to hide the point that you got caught...

We have a roster comparable to Atlanta, but they have more experience playing together, about 6 times as much.

Both Big 3s have rosters with an assload more talent than we have. Plus, Miami's Big 3 are all friends who agreed some years ago (if you believe the conspiracy, and I do) to play together.

If we had Miami's Big 3 and were at 27-26 I would agree with you. But you can't say that "Oh we have as much talent as Atlanta" and when met with the response that Atlanta has been together 3 years, change the question to "Oh well Miami was able to mesh."

I bring you answers, you change the question, a sure sign that you know your argument isn't holding much water (and I personally see it as weak and horribly put together).

Miami and Boston have more talent...do you not agree? That is why it is easier to mesh together, there is simply more talent there.

Atlanta has a comparable amount of talent, and they have been together three years to be as good as they are.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Stating something as true and proving your case are two different things. You are guilty of the first and have yet to try the second...

Seriously? I actually point to evidence and facts to support my point of view... you do neither, and just lay back on pure speculation and your love of MDA, and I'm not proving my case...

Wow. Just wow.

Thanks, btw, for actually addressing my points. Again, just because you think you're right doesn't actually make you right. Try point to relevant facts to support your opinion.

I would like one simple question answered. Do you think D'Antoni can actually bring NY a championship w/o defense?
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Your icons and bolding and changing the font are immature ploys used just to hide the point that you got caught...

We have a roster comparable to Atlanta, but they have more experience playing together, about 6 times as much.

Both Big 3s have rosters with an assload more talent than we have. Plus, Miami's Big 3 are all friends who agreed some years ago (if you believe the conspiracy, and I do) to play together.

If we had Miami's Big 3 and were at 27-26 I would agree with you. But you can't say that "Oh we have as much talent as Atlanta" and when met with the response that Atlanta has been together 3 years, change the question to "Oh well Miami was able to mesh."

I bring you answers, you change the question, a sure sign that you know your argument isn't holding much water (and I personally see it as weak and horribly put together).

Miami and Boston have more talent...do you not agree? That is why it is easier to mesh together, there is simply more talent there.

Atlanta has a comparable amount of talent, and they have been together three years to be as good as they are.

And, Atlanta actually plays defense.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Seriously? I actually point to evidence and facts to support my point of view... you do neither, and just lay back on pure speculation and your love of MDA, and I'm not proving my case...

Wow. Just wow.

Thanks, btw, for actually addressing my points. Again, just because you think you're right doesn't actually make you right. Try point to relevant facts to support your opinion.

I would like one simple question answered. Do you think D'Antoni can actually bring NY a championship w/o defense?

And the top three teams in the East and West are all great defensive teams. Hmmm.
 

KBlack25

Starter
And, Atlanta actually plays defense.

I mean they have one guy who I personally think is a top 3 rebounder in the league (Al Horford)...and in terms of points allowed per 100 possessions (which I personally think is a better stat to measure defense) we give up only 3 points more than Atlanta.
 
Your icons and bolding and changing the font are immature ploys used just to hide the point that you got caught...

We have a roster comparable to Atlanta, but they have more experience playing together, about 6 times as much.

Both Big 3s have rosters with an assload more talent than we have. Plus, Miami's Big 3 are all friends who agreed some years ago (if you believe the conspiracy, and I do) to play together.

If we had Miami's Big 3 and were at 27-26 I would agree with you. But you can't say that "Oh we have as much talent as Atlanta" and when met with the response that Atlanta has been together 3 years, change the question to "Oh well Miami was able to mesh."

I bring you answers, you change the question, a sure sign that you know your argument isn't holding much water (and I personally see it as weak and horribly put together).

Miami and Boston have more talent...do you not agree? That is why it is easier to mesh together, there is simply more talent there.

Atlanta has a comparable amount of talent, and they have been together three years to be as good as they are.

I didn't change the question but I was comparing other teams to show how talent can mess together quickly.
How can more talented players mesh together faster?By being assigned roles from the COACH. They learn their roles on the team and now what they are capable of and should be doing.
If our coach was doing this we wouldn't have bad 3 point shooters firing away,:barf::barf: legit 7 foot big men shooting 20footers or being benched when we need boards:alert::alert:, Our Pg taking more shots than passing :alert:and only assisting over 40% to Amare:alert:. These are things the COACH is responsible for, this way "TALENT" is able to mesh. Do you agree?
 

KBlack25

Starter
I didn't change the question but I was comparing other teams to show how talent can mess together quickly.
How can more talented players mesh together faster?By being assigned roles from the COACH. They learn their roles on the team and now what they are capable of and should be doing.
If our coach was doing this we wouldn't have bad 3 point shooters firing away,:barf::barf: legit 7 foot big men shooting 20footers or being benched when we need boards:alert::alert:, Our Pg taking more shots than passing :alert:and only assisting over 40% to Amare:alert:. These are things the COACH is responsible for, this way "TALENT" is able to mesh. Do you agree?

No I don't agree. I actually think it is on the players to control a large portion of what goes on on the floor (revolutionary idea on this board). I think that the players, not D'Antoni, take bad shots, miss layups, don't even step in front of their man on the drive (see: Felton, Raymond). I actually think the players making an effort to like each other, and spend time with each other and learn each other's games affects our chemistry more than a coach forcing guys to play together. Wade-Bosh-James played together in USA Hoops and were best boys when they showed up in Miami. Boston had 3 players come together, all some level of a leader, and guys who had predefined roles that all meshed well and simply had the talent to mask early growing pains, and landed a solid PG steal in the draft.

And yes you did change the question...this is how it went down, literally:

You: We have better talent than Atlanta, we should be better than them.

Me: Atlanta has been together for three years.

You: Well how long did it take the Big Three to mesh?

Me: The Big Threes both have more talent.

You: That's no excuse (icons like a 2004 MySpace Page).
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
MDA's intentions? No. MDA's carefully worded rhetoric when asked questions about some of the mind boggling shit he's perpetrating? No. MDA's results...or lack thereof? Yes.

LOL, mind-boggling shit he is perpetrating? Like what? Not playing a Russian rookie project when he was not ready? Not play AR who has yet to crack an NBA rotation? Come on now!

If we're getting out rebounded in virtually every game we play...and you have confidence in the abilities of our 7' center...play him. Let him make mistakes, learn from them, and grow...that is the absolute worst case scenario for playing a young, 20 year old, foreign center...mistakes, learning experiences on the court, growth.

Totally different subject to what you quoted. That said, Moz was given the starting center job and LOST IT DUE TO EARLY STUPID FOULS AND MOVING BEFORE HE HAD CONTROL OF THE BALL. One can be confident that a player has skill and will eventually be a good player while not thinking they are CURRENTLY ready to get major minutes on a team fighting to stay above .500. So yes, it took injuries in order to give Moz a second chance and so far he has played well. Lets remember that he played well for a long stretch during the pre-season before looking absolutely lost on the court. I say the jury is still out on whether he is ready to grind at center for major minutes nightly.

It is an absolutely terrible idea to gamble winnable games for the sake of experience and growth. We are competing for our first playoff birth in years and need every win this INCOMPLETE roster can muster. You act as if a player cannot gain valuable skill or growth from practices and scrimmages against other NBA teammates.

And if you're really stressing defense, then there should be some tangible results along with intangible things that you would only know about from watching the game. We don't play the passing lanes well, we switch too much, we double too much, we let bigs get superior position down low, we don't give enough effort for 4 quarters on that side of the ball. Effort can most definitely be altered thru coaching. We may never have an all defensive team out there, but anyone can play good team defense if coached up. You can say MDA and his staff does it...but unless our players are retarded...I don't see it.

TD plays the passing lane quite well which would highlight the ultimate truth that it is the player and not coach MOSTLY responsible. As my quote from JJ states, you cannot expect players who are weak at defense to be great defenders through coaching anymore than you can make someone who is not offensively gifted into a top tier scorer. (paraphrasing)

We let bigs get superior position because Amare and Chandler for the majority of the season have played out of position. Amare has never been a good defender and certainly can't contain elite scorers while playing out of position. Neither can Chandler, so again, more to do with roster than coaching. If you disagree please tell me why you think a defensive coach can outweigh poor defensive players playing out of position. Again, Larry Brown, a HOF coach known for his defense had the Knicks 27th in the league in defense. Larry Brown...27th in the league!

I don't want to hear what MDA has to say in front of a mic/camera, I want to see the results on the court. Don't confuse that with wins and losses, but the results of the "coaching" that the players are receiving.

You are seeing the results, we are the 6th seed. 6th seed and winning record in a league dominated by teams with multiple stars. 6th seed with max money wasted on Curry. 6th seed with our best potential defender (Azbuikie) yet to play a game. 6th seed with our second best defender (Turiaf) injured for most of the season.

Again, are you asserting we should be 5th, 4th or even 3rd seed? I see us right where we are supposed to be and ahead of where many predicted at the start.

I guess you can kinda call me a big picture type of person. While I'm happy that we're in the playoff hunt, I'm not happy that we beat the Nets by really less than 10 points if you take out the free throws to stop the clock, with 16 of 34 three pointers...what the **** is that? When I was sitting in the Garden during the Clippers game, why did I look up at the scoreboard and see us shooting 8% from 3 not even half way thru the second Q? That's 1/12 in less than 20 mins.

I missed the game but wasn't Amare injured?

And don't talk to me about the roster, because back in the day he had a 2-time MVP Steve Nash and Amar'e and he also had other players around them that "fit" his "system" (really Euroball with more 3's...but ok...I guess he's a "creative genius") and all that led to was getting handled in the playoffs. Not one-off games during the regular season, but a 7 game series where the other organization is focused on you and only you....the system didn't hold up.

And Pat Riley and JVG never won titles with the Knicks yet I'm confident you would have either back as coach. The Suns ran up against a superior team in the Spurs and the one year they were up 2-1 (i believe) Amare and Barbosa each got suspended for leaving the bench. The Spurs ended winning the series and sweeping the Cavs.

I will stay talking about the roster since it the most important facet of defense...period. Again, we have players playing out of position, 1.5 stars in a league dominated by teams with 2+, poor defensive players and max money sitting on the sideline.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Seriously? I actually point to evidence and facts to support my point of view... you do neither, and just lay back on pure speculation and your love of MDA, and I'm not proving my case...

Wow. Just wow.

Thanks, btw, for actually addressing my points. Again, just because you think you're right doesn't actually make you right. Try point to relevant facts to support your opinion.

I would like one simple question answered. Do you think D'Antoni can actually bring NY a championship w/o defense?


If you could read you would not be saying this. I have composed more logic, brought more fact and made more irrefutable points in this thread alone then your short tenure on this site. First you list a whole bunch of things as fact and now you are in essence stating "I know you are but what am I" :teeth:
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
No I don't agree. I actually think it is on the players to control a large portion of what goes on on the floor. I actually think the players making an effort to like each other, and spend time with each other and learn each other's games. Wade-Bosh-James played together in USA Hoops and were best boys when they showed up in Miami. Boston had 3 players come together, a leader, and guys who had predefined roles that all meshed well and simply had the talent to mask early growing pains, and landed a solid PG steal in the draft.

And yes you did change the question...this is how it went down, literally:

You: We have better talent than Atlanta, we should be better than them.

Me: Atlanta has been together for three years.

You: Well how long did it take the Big Three to mesh?

Me: The Big Threes both have more talent.

You: That's no excuse (icons like a 2004 MySpace Page).
I said we have equal talent to Atlanta,Also Atlanta didn't have Jamal Crawford when they only won 37 games as soon as he came they boosted up to 50+ under Mike Woodson. 37-50+ in one season that's at least 13+ wins. So if we have a talent similar to theirs we should be on our way to at least 42 wins. Under Mike D we might not get that.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
If you could read you would not be saying this. I have composed more logic, brought more fact and made more irrefutable points in this thread alone then your short tenure on this site. First you list a whole bunch of things as fact and now you are in essence stating "I know you are but what am I" :teeth:

AGain, thanks for the Ad Hominem attack instead of actually addressing my point. Thanks for refuting yourself for me.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Unless I'm reading this wrong, we give up 11ppg more than Atlanta.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable1.html

That's a pretty huge margin of difference.

That's not what I said (read what I wrote).

There's a difference between PPG and points per 100 possessions. If you force more possessions there is more scoring (e.g. if you run the floor and score quick buckets there are simply more chances for each team to score). I personally believe points per 100 possessions is a better indicator, it shows how well, per possession you play ball. Per 100 possession we give up 3 points more than Atlanta.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Kblack...don't even except the premise. Atlanta has a better and deeper roster than the Knicks evidenced by their ability to actually play the players at their natural position. Add in their experience together, playoff runs and deep roster full of veterans(we are the 2nd youngest team) and it's not a mystery to most why Atlanta is ahead of us.

People would have us believe this is all coaching and not that our roster and rebuild is incomplete, not that our two best defenders (Azbuikie and Turiaf) have been injured and not that we are a young squad, newly formed with only one star.
 

KBlack25

Starter
I said we have equal talent to Atlanta,Also Atlanta didn't have Jamal Crawford when they only won 37 games as soon as he came they boosted up to 50+ under Mike Woodson. 37-50+ in one season that's at least 13+ wins. So if we have a talent similar to theirs we should be on our way to at least 42 wins. Under Mike D we might not get that.

We are 1 game over .500, so we are on pace for that #.
 
No I don't agree. I actually think it is on the players to control a large portion of what goes on on the floor (revolutionary idea on this board). I think that the players, not D'Antoni, take bad shots, miss layups, don't even step in front of their man on the drive (see: Felton, Raymond). I actually think the players making an effort to like each other, and spend time with each other and learn each other's games affects our chemistry more than a coach forcing guys to play together. Wade-Bosh-James played together in USA Hoops and were best boys when they showed up in Miami. Boston had 3 players come together, all some level of a leader, and guys who had predefined roles that all meshed well and simply had the talent to mask early growing pains, and landed a solid PG steal in the draft.

And yes you did change the question...this is how it went down, literally:

You: We have better talent than Atlanta, we should be better than them.

Me: Atlanta has been together for three years.

You: Well how long did it take the Big Three to mesh?

Me: The Big Threes both have more talent.

You: That's no excuse (icons like a 2004 MySpace Page).
Then whats the excuse for Portland having a better record than us?What's the excuse for Phoenix almost having the same record than us?Why?Because they play DEFENSE.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Kblack...don't even except the premise. Atlanta has a better and deeper roster than the Knicks evidenced by their ability to actually play the players at their natural position. Add in their experience together, playoff runs and deep roster full of veterans(we are the 2nd youngest team) and it's not a mystery to most why Atlanta is ahead of us.

People would have us believe this is all coaching and not that our roster and rebuild is incomplete, not that our two best defenders (Azbuikie and Turiaf) have been injured and not that we are a young squad, newly formed with only one star.

No I agree.

Atlanta, even with similar talent (I think Atlanta is more talented, personally, but even if we roll with that idea), they have had 3 years to put it together. Then the guy says we should be on pace for 42 wins (which is what we are on pace for right now) but with MDA we might not get there...well an anvil might fall on my head when I walk outside, I don't play in MIGHTS. I see over halfway through the season, this team, based on talent level right where they should be. Apparently so does Mike D'Antoni's detractor (knicksfansince92).

No coach would have us in the top 4, we simply aren't as deep as even Orlando or Chicago, nevermind Miami and Boston. If you want to say we might compete with Atlanta, I disagree (I think their front court is absolutely LETHAL), but that still doesn't have us much further up than where we should be.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Then whats the excuse for Portland having a better record than us?What's the excuse for Phoenix almost having the same record than us?Why?Because they play DEFENSE.

Phoenix gives up more points per 100 possessions than we do, and we give up less than 2.5 more points per 100 possessions than Portland. It's not a huge difference.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
AGain, thanks for the Ad Hominem attack instead of actually addressing my point. Thanks for refuting yourself for me.

Thats funny because I have about 5 page long posts in this thread that you have yet to even start to address. If it offends you that I pointed out that you responded with a list of assertions masquerading as fact and accused me(falsely) of doing what I pointed out you doing then change your behavior.

All your "facts" have been directly addressed before you even made them. That tells me you rather ignore my points and restate your own assertions then quote me and have an actual debate...hence my initial post in your direction.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
I think the most telling factor is point differential. However, Atlanta is a more consistent team than the Knicks on the defensive end, and it is why they are where they are now. Experience, you're right, does play a factor, but they have better individual and team defenders. There is a reason why they are 7 games ahead of us and that goes to defense.

If the Knicks played defense that they are capable of, we would be right around where Atlanta is.
 
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