What has Damntoni Done?

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Thats funny because I have about 5 page long posts in this thread that you have yet to even start to address. If it offends you that I pointed out that you responded with a list of assertions masquerading as fact and accused me(falsely) of doing what I pointed out you doing then change your behavior.

All your "facts" have been directly addressed before you even made them. That tells me you rather ignore my points and restate your own assertions then quote me and have an actual debate...hence my initial post in your direction.

I have seen your points and successfully addressed and successfully refuted them in this thread and others. I asked you once question, which you have refused to answer...

With the way D'Antoni "preaches" defense, could you really see us winning a championship?
 

KBlack25

Starter
I think the most telling factor is point differential. However, Atlanta is a more consistent team than the Knicks on the defensive end, and it is why they are where they are now. Experience, you're right, does play a factor, but they have better individual and team defenders. There is a reason why they are 7 games ahead of us and that goes to defense.

If the Knicks played defense that they are capable of, we would be right around where Atlanta is.

We DO play similar defense to Atlanta on the whole. Are we better? No. But we aren't being blown away on the # of points per possession we give up, it's relatively close between a large chunk of teams in the middle...there are 7 teams sort of bunched at the top, a bunch of teams in the middle, and a number of teams bunched at the bottom. We are in the middle with ATL. It's 3 points per 100 possessions, we play similar defense per possession to ATL. The real problem is rebounding, we aren't even doing the BASICS when it comes to rebounding, which I see as a problem in personnel.
 
LOL, mind-boggling shit he is perpetrating? Like what? Not playing a Russian rookie project when he was not ready? Not play AR who has yet to crack an NBA rotation? Come on now!



Totally different subject to what you quoted. That said, Moz was given the starting center job and LOST IT DUE TO EARLY STUPID FOULS AND MOVING BEFORE HE HAD CONTROL OF THE BALL. One can be confident that a player has skill and will eventually be a good player while not thinking they are CURRENTLY ready to get major minutes on a team fighting to stay above .500. So yes, it took injuries in order to give Moz a second chance and so far he has played well. Lets remember that he played well for a long stretch during the pre-season before looking absolutely lost on the court. I say the jury is still out on whether he is ready to grind at center for major minutes nightly.

It is an absolutely terrible idea to gamble winnable games for the sake of experience and growth. We are competing for our first playoff birth in years and need every win this INCOMPLETE roster can muster. You act as if a player cannot gain valuable skill or growth from practices and scrimmages against other NBA teammates.



TD plays the passing lane quite well which would highlight the ultimate truth that it is the player and not coach MOSTLY responsible. As my quote from JJ states, you cannot expect players who are weak at defense to be great defenders through coaching anymore than you can make someone who is not offensively gifted into a top tier scorer. (paraphrasing)

We let bigs get superior position because Amare and Chandler for the majority of the season have played out of position. Amare has never been a good defender and certainly can't contain elite scorers while playing out of position. Neither can Chandler, so again, more to do with roster than coaching. If you disagree please tell me why you think a defensive coach can outweigh poor defensive players playing out of position. Again, Larry Brown, a HOF coach known for his defense had the Knicks 27th in the league in defense. Larry Brown...27th in the league!



You are seeing the results, we are the 6th seed. 6th seed and winning record in a league dominated by teams with multiple stars. 6th seed with max money wasted on Curry. 6th seed with our best potential defender (Azbuikie) yet to play a game. 6th seed with our second best defender (Turiaf) injured for most of the season.

Again, are you asserting we should be 5th, 4th or even 3rd seed? I see us right where we are supposed to be and ahead of where many predicted at the start.



I missed the game but wasn't Amare injured?



And Pat Riley and JVG never won titles with the Knicks yet I'm confident you would have either back as coach. The Suns ran up against a superior team in the Spurs and the one year they were up 2-1 (i believe) Amare and Barbosa each got suspended for leaving the bench. The Spurs ended winning the series and sweeping the Cavs.

I will stay talking about the roster since it the most important facet of defense...period. Again, we have players playing out of position, 1.5 stars in a league dominated by teams with 2+, poor defensive players and max money sitting on the sideline.
I love how you always find a way to defend MDA.The bulls have only a little bit more talent than we do (and don't even say they have Noah because he was injured since early december).Why do they have better record than us?because when they don't just rely on offense they have defense so when there shots are knocking down they can still win.Please stop defending MDA and his flawed system.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
I think the most telling factor is point differential. However, Atlanta is a more consistent team than the Knicks on the defensive end, and it is why they are where they are now. Experience, you're right, does play a factor, but they have better individual and team defenders. There is a reason why they are 7 games ahead of us and that goes to defense.

If the Knicks played defense that they are capable of, we would be right around where Atlanta is.


How are the two bolded statements consistent? On one hand you acknowledge that they have better defenders and then default back to "if only coach could squeeze defensive blood from a stone we would be right with Atlanta". (paraphrasing)
 

KBlack25

Starter
I love how you always find a way to defend MDA.The bulls have only a little bit more talent than we do (and don't even say they have Noah because he was injured since early december).Why do they have better record than us?because when they don't just rely on offense they have defense so when there shots are knocking down they can still win.Please stop defending MDA and his flawed system.

I disagree. I think top to bottom the Bulls are one of the best, most complementary rosters in the league.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
I love how you always find a way to defend MDA.The bulls have only a little bit more talent than we do (and don't even say they have Noah because he was injured since early december).Why do they have better record than us?because when they don't just rely on offense they have defense so when there shots are knocking down they can still win.Please stop defending MDA and his flawed system.

Riiight. The Bulls have a little more talent. I love how you pose a question like "why do they have a better record than us" and then state your opinion as the absolute truth and answer without detailing why.

I have gone into great detail to back up my assertions and until someone can actually make a cogent argument against any of my points I will stand by my points.

Are you referring to superior coaching like not playing Rose and Boozer for almost entire 4th against us? BTW, didn't we beat the Bulls twice this year so far?
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
How are the two bolded statements consistent? On one hand you acknowledge that they have better defenders and then default back to "if only coach could squeeze defensive blood from a stone we would be right with Atlanta". (paraphrasing)

Not saying we would be as good, but we would be right around where the are. Again, thanks for answering my question.

We DO play similar defense to Atlanta on the whole. Are we better? No. But we aren't being blown away on the # of points per possession we give up, it's relatively close between a large chunk of teams in the middle...there are 7 teams sort of bunched at the top, a bunch of teams in the middle, and a number of teams bunched at the bottom. We are in the middle with ATL. It's 3 points per 100 possessions, we play similar defense per possession to ATL. The real problem is rebounding, we aren't even doing the BASICS when it comes to rebounding, which I see as a problem in personnel.

KBlack -- rebounding is a problem (which has been helped with D'Antoni playing Mozgov more often), but defense is where we are seeing are greatest downfalls. When our offense stutters, you get this sinking feeling that we won't be able to close out games because we rarely get consistent stops (especially against the better teams).

The Knicks can play better defense then they are now, but its not emphasized.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Riiight. The Bulls have a little more talent. I love how you pose a question like "why do they have a better record than us" and then state your opinion as the absolute truth and answer without detailing why.

I have gone into great detail to back up my assertions and until someone can actually make a cogent argument against any of my points I will stand by my points.

Are you referring to superior coaching like not playing Rose and Boozer for almost entire 4th against us? BTW, didn't we beat the Bulls twice this year so far?

Bulls have better all-around players... The Knicks have mostly offensive minded players.

The Bulls are a great defensive team. The Knicks are not.

Those two points right there are both made because of D'Antoni's flawed philosophy.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
I have seen your points and successfully addressed and successfully refuted them in this thread and others. I asked you once question, which you have refused to answer...

With the way D'Antoni "preaches" defense, could you really see us winning a championship?

No you have not addressed my points. In fact I think the first time we have ever engaged is in this thread when I started what has now become this lame off-topic volley. I am on record and have presented my points multiple times including the reasoning behind it and went so far as to support my points with an article and quotes from Jared Jefferies. If you wish to dispute any of those points, quote them, post your reasons (no, stating the contrary is not good enough) and I will be glad to have a debate. You are entitled to state your assertions as fact without backing them up but know I am also entitled to point that out in the hopes of elevating the discussion.
 
Riiight. The Bulls have a little more talent. I love how you pose a question like "why do they have a better record than us" and then state your opinion as the absolute truth and answer without detailing why.

I have gone into great detail to back up my assertions and until someone can actually make a cogent argument against any of my points I will stand by my points.

Are you referring to superior coaching like not playing Rose and Boozer for almost entire 4th against us? BTW, didn't we beat the Bulls twice this year so far?
Why are you trying your heart out to sound intelligent?"BTW, didn't we beat the Bulls twice this year so far"?BTW don't the bulls have a better record than us?
 

KBlack25

Starter
KBlack -- rebounding is a problem (which has been helped with D'Antoni playing Mozgov more often), but defense is where we are seeing are greatest downfalls. When our offense stutters, you get this sinking feeling that we won't be able to close out games because we rarely get consistent stops (especially against the better teams).

The Knicks can play better defense then they are now, but its not emphasized.

I am a stickler for rebounding...I have a whole long theory on it but it's too long and complicated to post here on a whim, but to me rebounding and free throw shooting are the two most important things in a hoops game. If I had time and the need I could prob. do a decent statistical study on it.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Not saying we would be as good, but we would be right around where the are. Again, thanks for answering my question.



KBlack -- rebounding is a problem (which has been helped with D'Antoni playing Mozgov more often), but defense is where we are seeing are greatest downfalls. When our offense stutters, you get this sinking feeling that we won't be able to close out games because we rarely get consistent stops (especially against the better teams).

The Knicks can play better defense then they are now, but its not emphasized.

It has less to do with emphasis and more to do with installation and application. Do something, anything, even Dallas went to the 2-3 matchup zone based on their belief that they don't have the right players for man-to-man defensive schemes. Sure they could sit Chandler, slide Dirk over to the 5, and throw Marion into the starting lineup as a 4 and play a more uptempo style, and try to score 150ppg...but they didn't...they found a way to get some defensive stops and build their offense around what they had.

They tailored the gameplan to the roster, not the other way around.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
I am a stickler for rebounding...I have a whole long theory on it but it's too long and complicated to post here on a whim, but to me rebounding and free throw shooting are the two most important things in a hoops game. If I had time and the need I could prob. do a decent statistical study on it.

I would be interested in it, should you do the study. I believe boarding is a key element to winning games, too.
 

KBlack25

Starter
I would be interested in it, should you do the study. I believe boarding is a key element to winning games, too.

Basically it has to do with the fact that good shooters and bad shooters miss close to the same amount of attempts per game, so that whether you are a good shooting team or a bad one, almost always the number of rebounds going up for grabs stays somewhat similar. Getting a high percentage of rebounds (and retaining or regaining possession in the process) is much more important than finding "good" shooters, in the long run.

As for Free Throws...well, they can be one of two things: Free Throws, or Foul Shots. A team that takes Free Throws gets free points. A team that takes Foul Shots gets points wiped off the board that they should be getting. The year Dallas was really good they brought in a free throw coach, the only team in the league to do it. Coincidence that they finished top team in the league that year? Maybe, but probably not.

I would bet that if I took the W-L record of teams that outrebounded and shot a better free throw percentage than their opponents, it would be insanely high. That is what a lengthy study would do...just use it to show that rebounding + free throw percentage are up there as the most important factors in determining win/loss.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
It has less to do with emphasis and more to do with installation and application. Do something, anything, even Dallas went to the 2-3 matchup zone based on their belief that they don't have the right players for man-to-man defensive schemes. Sure they could sit Chandler, slide Dirk over to the 5, and throw Marion into the starting lineup as a 4 and play a more uptempo style, and try to score 150ppg...but they didn't...they found a way to get some defensive stops and build their offense around what they had.

They tailored the gameplan to the roster, not the other way around.

Good point. Wrong word choice. D'Antoni will say defense, but they never actually practically implement it. I have seen games where their rotations are spot on and they anticipate where the ball is going. They help out on the weak side and really look like a great team.

Then I see (most) games where its like they forgot how to play defense all together. Guys get into the lane way too easily, one guy rotates (late), and then no one else rotates to cover his man. Just sadness defined.

I grew up with the mid-90's Knicks. I grew up on a fundamental basketball. I grew up with a back-to-the-basket post presence. I know that is not what we have, but we need to at least defend. We need to play tough on both sides of he floor, but because of our style of play, I think our players are just too tired to play defense many games. That's why we don't see it as often (an especially as of late).

The All-Star Break is well needed at this point.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
I am a stickler for rebounding...I have a whole long theory on it but it's too long and complicated to post here on a whim, but to me rebounding and free throw shooting are the two most important things in a hoops game. If I had time and the need I could prob. do a decent statistical study on it.

Yea I agree too. Rebounding and free throws directly leads to extra possessions and getting other teams out of what they want to accomplish against you.

But we do the exact opposite. It's not only about how many FTs you take per game (those numbers could get misleading with a guy like STAT on the team) but you should probably try to use more of the shot clock and keep the possibility of getting to the line open...early shots kills both of those tactics. Offense should be inside out, and defense should be outside in. But instead we look for the early outside shot, and we let everyone penetrate from the outside to make attempts around the basket, and every once in a while our guys will but their athleticism on display and block a shot. But the opposition is getting to the spot they want, when they want to, and they're allowed to do what they want to.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Bulls have better all-around players... The Knicks have mostly offensive minded players.

The Bulls are a great defensive team. The Knicks are not.

Those two points right there are both made because of D'Antoni's flawed philosophy.

Thanks for proving my point that it is the roster that hurts our defense and not the system. It also proves my other major point that changing coaches won't make up for that and it would take dramtically altering our roster 1/2 year into phase one of a two phase rebuild.

Those two points do not portend to anything having to do with Mikes philosophy. Are you saying we should not have picked up Amare or Felton? Were those pickups a result of obtaining the best players available or some attempt to placate D'ants system?

Further, we traded David Lee for 3 DEFENSIVE players in an attempt to sure up our D.

Azbuikie - potential all-star wing and elite perimeter defender. (when healthy)
Turiaf- Heart, hustle, defense and rebounding. (when healthy)
AR- potential is that of a two way player that can guard any position, alter shots and grab boards.

But how could this be!? D'ant only wants offensive players on his team as you assert yet we picked up 3 defenders...

Just to reiterate another one of my many points that you seem hellbent on ignoring evidenced by this latest post:

Jeffries, in fact, presents a strong counter-argument to those who contend that D?Antoni cares only about offense. Jeffries was easily the Knicks? least skilled offensive player. Yet he started 37 of 52 games this season and was sixth in minutes per game (28.1). He led the Knicks in charges drawn.

?I think that Mike?s a realist,?? Jeffries said. ?Defending, like anything else in the NBA, is a talent level. And you can?t have people that are not great defenders and expect them to be great defenders. Just like you can?t have people that aren?t great scorers and expect them to be great scorers. He put me out there to be a defender and he puts guys out there to be scorers. He does focus on defense, but if you don?t have defensive players, then you?re not going to be a great defensive team.??

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.c...nicks-defense/

Just the facts folks!
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Why are you trying your heart out to sound intelligent?"BTW, didn't we beat the Bulls twice this year so far"?BTW don't the bulls have a better record than us?

I don't have to try buddy but evidently you do...and have so far failed. Yes, they have a better record and a better roster. Oh and yea, we did beat them twice and Thibedaue was such an excellent coach that he left Rose and Boozer on the bench and let the Knicks steal a game in Chi-town
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Basically it has to do with the fact that good shooters and bad shooters miss close to the same amount of attempts per game, so that whether you are a good shooting team or a bad one, almost always the number of rebounds going up for grabs stays somewhat similar. Getting a high percentage of rebounds (and retaining or regaining possession in the process) is much more important than finding "good" shooters, in the long run.

As for Free Throws...well, they can be one of two things: Free Throws, or Foul Shots. A team that takes Free Throws gets free points. A team that takes Foul Shots gets points wiped off the board that they should be getting. The year Dallas was really good they brought in a free throw coach, the only team in the league to do it. Coincidence that they finished top team in the league that year? Maybe, but probably not.

I would bet that if I took the W-L record of teams that outrebounded and shot a better free throw percentage than their opponents, it would be insanely high. That is what a lengthy study would do...just use it to show that rebounding + free throw percentage are up there as the most important factors in determining win/loss.

Makes sense. So, if I'm reading this correctly, larger guys who can board and shoot high free throw percentages (Andrew Bynum/Pau Gasol) are some of the best players to have on your team.
 
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