if d antoni leaves ny i will:
Well, that makes sense doesn't it? We talk about Felton's best statistical season: a result of an inflated offence. This is speculative, but not unreasonable - if inflated possessions are a result of inflated offensive numbers, Anthony Randolph's defensive numbers should inflate also, as an example. This doesn't correlate in the win column.Well, I think we can agree that we are not built for a half court offense considering our size and depth issues. For the most part we move the ball quite effectively and when we were hot we were one of the league leaders in assists.
Our lack of size has been our bane all year. Competent offensive size at least. It's been solely about offensive woes and, in The Gov's case, fouling. Randolph's arrested development is about his weak point: offence, while the rest of the league drools over his strong point: defence. Needless to say, the import of one outweighs the other in NY. As I mentioned above.See, I look at it the other way around...it's our offense and system that allows us to win games and overachieve above the lack of size, second star and depth of our roster.
Don't you think you're selling out our players for the sake of point making? I think you should elaborate on their deficiencies, because all I'm seeing is a lack of defensive cohesion. Especially in the paint. Why can't we reciprocate defensively? What is that due to?Yes, I agree when our 3 point shot is not falling or our ball movement is stagnant our offense is ineffective. When that happens it magnifies and highlights the deficiencies of our roster. No coach is going to make us better defenders or rebounder's without drastically changing the roster.
Too often we see Chandler defending a bigger, heavier opponent in the block, that's related to focusing on/sacrificing for offence. Are you saying that is solely the fault of the players? It's a very circumstantial approach to the game.
There's no necessity for adjusting the structural weakness of our team offensively, as you said the team was built for racking up points and I agree. There's a dire need for restructuring within our coaching defensively. It's an issue amplified by the amount of points we give up in the paint. Mozgov's back in and opponents at spots 1-2-3 score against us in the paint because our rotation and communication defensively are a debacle. Blaming individuals is bogus. On the arc, Felton and Douglas play the defensive P&R and passing lanes well enough, but our rotation is heinous once there's a breakdown. 53 games in and there's been minimal improvement. Is that the players' fault?These problems are a constant until the roster is improved therefore we need to have the type of high tempo, high scoring offense to compensate for our structural weaknesses.
That is a gross over-statement. You seem to literally have 10% faith in our roster. There's taking sides, and there's being reasonable.You are entitled to want to see anything and that is fine but lets lay the blame where the blame is due. 90% roster/10% coach IMHO.
A complete roster or a complete D'Antoni/SSOL roster with automatic defence? Phase 1 failed in FA. There's still been a lack of adjustment. A veritable drought!I for one am excited to see a complete roster competing nightly in this system. Lets remember my other points about calls for change 1/2 a year into PHASE ONE of a TWO phase rebuild. Our roster and rebuild is incomplete so maybe it's not Melo but we have help coming.
Nobody could have predicted that Milwaukee and Charlotte would have underachieved so much this year, but you're right. 6th seed is above expectation. The way things are going though, the way we seem to constantly run through the motions, it's under serious threat.Obviously during losses nothing looks good and since we only are one game above .500 there is a lot to critique. That said, I think we are overarching from where most people including the "expert's" thought at the beginning of the season. We are the 6th seed and I can't name a single team ahead of us that does not have a better or deeper roster. D'ant has multiple guys playing the best ball of their careers so I fail to see how he or another coach could do more.
Basically, I think MD has done a decent job throughout stages of this year. But the fact remains that the system and coach are reliant on pieces specific to themselves. A lack (inability?) of necessary adjustments on either end are why I don't see MD as a good coach, but a decent one. It is a coach's core responsibility, of course, to field an inspired team that's prepared to adjust and stop the ball when necessary.
This isn't last year or the year before. Our boys are better than the basketball they've played across the last 15 games, a period that included home losses to three teams - the Clippers, Sacramento and Phoenix - that aren't among the Western Conference's top eight.
This team should NOT be a monument to mediocrity as they've become.
You say 90% players, 10% coach.
I say 35/65 in favour of the players.
I could go on, but this has been a half an hour type! One must take time to relieve oneself of tadpoles.
I have been reading some crazy posts lately and it's mind boggling the opinions stated in this forum!
It's amazing that under D'Antoni Chandler, Felton and AMARE are having career years. We have a rookie in Fields that is the surprise of the draft and a center in Mozgov that was a BACKUP in Russia that is looking more and more like a solid starting NBA center.... We are poised to make the playoffs for the first time in YEARS and maybe even as high as a 5th seed.... We tanked multiple seasons just so we could get under the cap and start signing talent... All of this and you guys want to get rid of him?!?!?!?!?!?!
To top it off, you guys SCREAM that we do not play D (blaming D'Antoni for this) and yet you want to get Melo WHO DOES NOT PLAY D!!!! And to take the absurdity to higher levels, you want to bury our newly found cap space on 2 guys (STAT and MELO) that are the SAME EXACT player and possibly leaving us capped out under the new CBA with two 1 dimensional players and no money to get complimentary players to surround them with.
I just don't get it!!! Had anyone really looked at the structure of Boston and Miami?????
Get a new owner!!!
Red herring, false positive, fools gold, goes deeper, paradox
Take your pick.
Inflated INDIVIDUAL stats don't justify poor team defense I.e. 29th overall in points surrendered and in fact...
Poor defensive performance, inconsistent defensive performance is attributable to the downsides of what's needed to inflate stats. How hard is that? Are these players any better skill wise? No. Are they in a SYSTEM that promotes offensive stats? Yes.
So we can conclude being in a system that promotes defense will lead to inflated defensive stats. Also, that would mean the offense will decrease but as the stats show we have reached a point of dimenishing return. Our offense is tops but our defense is one of the worse. We can't make up for that with more offense as that leads to even worse defense. That's why I said (to me) the verdict is in, I've seen enough.
Let me stop you now as I anticipate your (probably long) rebutle.
1. There's a deifference between "Preaching" defense & "Teaching" it
2. Phx or this system as never won, as successful and innovative as you argue, the fact remains there were better systems, teams, and coaches
3. Our roster is in flux and this is the perfect opportunity to build it more conventionally, not in the mode of a limited, failing approach ssol
4. If you combat Size (Bos, Mia, Orl, Chi) combined with defense with Speed (Nyk & ssol) you achieve on some fronts but lose at the ultimate goal. Winning a championship.
No disputing that, no over analyzing... better coaches beat this system since its inception. Yes mda has had victores but couldn't and didn't when it counted.
A team has never won a chip in Jan. Leading throughout in offense.... never.
I accept your stance, I just know MDA can't win like this. If they do ever I mean forever I will concede. But the odds are next to impossible.
Quote me if you like, MDA using SSOL Will NEVER win a chip.
Of course one could speculate that Felton was going to have a breakout year under any coach or system but when you look at Nash and the similarities moving to SSOL one can draw a parallel. Add that to a David Lee who had all-star numbers last year and a dramatic drop this year and one can safley conclude that the system has definitely helped Felton elevate from mediocrity to all-star caliber. That elevation of his game is a direct reason we are currently in the 6th seed and one can look at the pattern of his play verse our record for further proof.Well, that makes sense doesn't it? We talk about Felton's best statistical season: a result of an inflated offence. This is speculative, but not unreasonable - if inflated possessions are a result of inflated offensive numbers, Anthony Randolph's defensive numbers should inflate also, as an example. This doesn't correlate in the win column.
AR? I don't see your point and we were not talking about AR. If anything that is pure speculation...we have no idea what sacrificing wins in the beginning in order to put a player "not ready for prime time" on the court in meaningful minutes would have done for our season. Sure, we def need what AR is SUPPOSED to bring but we also needed to rack up as many wins when the schedule was easy. I distinctly remember commentators talking about D'ants shortened rotation prior to that rough stretch designed to pad the win column. Had D'ant not done that one could SPECULATE that we would be several games under .500. Now you could argue that it may have resulted in AR getting minutes and that those minutes would have resulted in him becoming capable of contributing nightly on the defensive end. Further you could argue that those early extra losses would have been outweighed buy a now deeper more defensive roster because of the addition of a now capable AR but again that would all be SPECULATION.
The only teams that are drooling over his talents are teams rebuilding. They can afford to play him, taking the time to develop him with meaningful minutes because they are rebuilding and not going to the playoffs either way. The Knicks cannot afford to develop AR on court evidenced by our .500 + 1 record. We don't have the luxury of letting AR find his way during a game when it could result in a winnable game becoming a loss.Our lack of size has been our bane all year. Competent offensive size at least. It's been solely about offensive woes and, in The Gov's case, fouling. Randolph's arrested development is about his weak point: offence, while the rest of the league drools over his strong point: defence. Needless to say, the import of one outweighs the other in NY. As I mentioned above.
I'm not selling out our players, I am recognizing reality. Amare has never been a good defensive player and certainly cant be effective playing out of position at center because we lacked(may still lack since jury is still out on Moz) a starting center. This ends up putting Chandler at PF when he should be playing SF(possibly as 6th man) and our size issues are further compounded.Don't you think you're selling out our players for the sake of point making? I think you should elaborate on their deficiencies, because all I'm seeing is a lack of defensive cohesion. Especially in the paint. Why can't we reciprocate defensively? What is that due to?
Rebounding is crucial to a teams defense since a lack of rebounding will give the opposing team more possessions which equal more chances to score. That has ripple effects through out the game and lineup, tiring out our players on the defensive end. If we can add size for rebounding and a defensive presence it will do wonders on the offensive end and take unneeded pressure off of Amare.
See, I don't agree. In the beginning of the year Chandler was coming off the bench and Amare was starting at PF. It was only when Moz was pulled form the lineup that we went to a "small ball" lineup.Too often we see Chandler defending a bigger, heavier opponent in the block, that's related to focusing on/sacrificing for offence. Are you saying that is solely the fault of the players? It's a very circumstantial approach to the game.
Let's be real...we have two centers on this team, Moz and Turiaf. (I would argue Turiaf really is a PF) Turiaf has battled knee injuries all year and Moz was simply not ready in spite of his tremendous play in pre-season. This left D'ant with no choice but to play Chandler at the PF. Compound that with the fact we don't have any other viable PF other than AR (see above) and one can see how Chandler has been relegated to that role even when coming off the bench.
So you are saying that with another coach our size and defensive issues would just go away? How do you make that conclusion? When Larry Brown, a defensive HOF coach was our coach we were giving up almost the same amount of points and our defensive ranking was 27th in the league. Yes, our roster was completely different but this highlights the importance of the roster verse system when it comes to rebounding and defense.There's no necessity for adjusting the structural weakness of our team offensively, as you said the team was built for racking up points and I agree. There's a dire need for restructuring within our coaching defensively. It's an issue amplified by the amount of points we give up in the paint. Mozgov's back in and opponents at spots 1-2-3 score against us in the paint because our rotation and communication defensively are a debacle. Blaming individuals is bogus.
Well, if you don't have a defensive presence down low or you have a player like Amare who is afraid to pick up a foul resulting in an easy shot how can you blame the coach? Add to it, the extra possessions our lack of rebounding creates and additional scoring opportunities as a result and one can see why we struggle on the defensive end.On the arc, Felton and Douglas play the defensive P&R and passing lanes well enough, but our rotation is heinous once there's a breakdown. 53 games in and there's been minimal improvement. Is that the players' fault?
I don't agree. This is not 2k11 and D'ant does not have a wireless controller able to make minute by minute decisions on what each player does. The players hold in my opinion 90% of the culpability. The coach can make an impact with substitutions, play calls, defensive switches and during practice but cannot control what players do on the court from play to play.That is a gross over-statement. You seem to literally have 10% faith in our roster. There's taking sides, and there's being reasonable.
Phase 1 did not fail. We acquired an MVP caliber talent who is 2nd in the league in scoring. We also acquired Felton on a very reasonable 3 year deal and elevated his game to near all-star level. We did this while retaining our cap flexibility in order to add to this young athletic core.A complete roster or a complete D'Antoni/SSOL roster with automatic defence? Phase 1 failed in FA. There's still been a lack of adjustment. A veritable drought!
Lack of adjustment? Wasn't starting Chandler over Moz several games in an adjustment? Wasn't cultivating Williams and giving him minutes after 20+ games an adjustment? Isn't going back to giving Moz meaningful minutes now an adjustment? Of course they are but you expect the rearranging of deck chairs on the Titanic to result in the ship not sinking. (even though this ship is poised to make the playoffs)
Yes, its under threat but we our OVERACHIEVING while you admit no one expected us to do so. I argue that the overachieving is due to several players having career years and I would argue that our system has a direct role in that. (see Lee and Nash) Again, the high octane offense combined with several players having career years has helped us overcome the structural deficiencies in our roster. (size and defensive players)Nobody could have predicted that Milwaukee and Charlotte would have underachieved so much this year, but you're right. 6th seed is above expectation. The way things are going though, the way we seem to constantly run through the motions, it's under serious threat.
They are better than that but lets remember that our roster has a $14 million+ hole in it. Compound that with the extra possessions they give up due to a lack of size and the lack of depth because of injury and you can see why we are struggling.This isn't last year or the year before. Our boys are better than the basketball they've played across the last 15 games, a period that included home losses to three teams - the Clippers, Sacramento and Phoenix - that aren't among the Western Conference's top eight.
In conclusion, you admit we are overachieving as the 6th seed something that has to be attributed to D'ants system. (see above) No one can argue that several of our players are having career yearsomething that has to be attributed to D'ants system. (see above) Further no one can argue that having Curry's contract taking a roster spot from a potential max player does not effect the win column. I don't see what another coach could do to somehow win more games or makes us good defenders/rebounders with the roster as currently constructed.
The West Coast offense never won a Super Bowl...until it did.
The 3-4 Defense never won a Super Bowl...until it did.
Peyton Manning was a choke artist who would never win the Super Bowl...until he did.
Kevin Garnett consistently got his team to the playoffs in good position, but was never good enough to be a major contributor on a championship team...until he was.
A #8 seed had never made the NBA Finals...until it did.
The fast-paced up and down system had never won ANY professional basketball finals...until it did (look up the Guru of Go).
Just because something HAS never happened before does not mean it WILL never happen. There are three active coaches in this league with NBA championships, period. It's not like everyone who has ever been deserving has gotten a title, was Pat Riley's run in NY bad b/c we made one finals and didn't win it all? What about JVG? Is Don Nelson a bad coach? What about Sloan? And the SSOL is relatively new in terms of its use in the NBA.
Does D'Antoni have his limitations as coach? Of course he does. Every coach does. But just because in the past his teams have been successful and not won it all does not mean he will never win it all, it does not mean that these teams can't be beat using fresh legs to run them to death IF we can force them to play our game.
This is not an easy league to win it all in because of the nature of the game. Again, THREE active coaches have rings, out of 30. Which means, according to you, that 27 other systems will never win. I just find that hard to believe.
Originally Posted by Knicksin60
I will however address one of your points about inflated stats being fools gold. Really? So Felton's play is somehow artificial and in no way impacts our win/loss column? Going from 13.8 PPG to 17.2 while INCREASING his FG% is fools gold? Really? Going from 6.7 assists to 9+ assists while only increasing your TO's buy less than 1 per game is fools gold? Really? How about Felton's FT% up 8% and his attempts up slightly? Do I even need to mention what Felton's production means to Amare and what Amare means to our team? Add the play of Chandler and Williams and how anyone can conclude it's fools goal is beyond me...
Look at the team who won using the WC offense... which was a different innovative approach to offense that DIDN'T have a negative impact or corolation to the defense
Then look at their defensive rank...
And finally, look at the team(s) that finally beat it. That was defense (and segways to a point you actually made for me... thanks)
You mentioned the 3-4 which is a varyation of a defensive approach, and guess what, its still being used today, but was a DEFENSE that worked. Thank you.
Just because someting doesn't work doesn't mean it never will. But when it does, either a tweeking was necessary, or the stars miraculously aligned.
As per Einstein: the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. Are you insane? No just refuse to acknowledge. Everything you say is based on faith. Mda system not winning is fact.
Incorporate a defensive coach / system and it has a chance....
Of course that would mean sacrificing some of the offensive approach, MDA being less stubborn and willing to learn and accept help, and a realization offense can onlt take you so far. Next to impossible.
Just as likely you can realize this system isn't better than those that are likely to be in the way once the playoffs are reached.
Yes three coaches have won, one is going for his 3rd threepeat. Two are known for defense and discipline.
Complimenting both sides of the ball.
Are we disciplined, does our approach encompass all phases (then our defensive #'s would be just as inflated)? No. Can we be consistent? No. Can this system be beat? Yes.
So no, losing doesn't mean you will always lose, but it does mean something different has to be done to win and I have no faith that whatever mda can do will make the difference needed.
I said when this offense clicks we can beat anyone (which is true for most offenses), but to be honest, we can just as easily lose to ANYONE.
Look if you'd rather sacrifice defense for offense then that's your choice. If you want to over analyze and come up with excuses for what's good and bad about this approach, that's cool. But everything you argue is speculative until MDA wins.
Having a formidable defense is proven, and I support that. Use this system all you want idk... but if you can't win using basic fundamental approaches proven, how am I supposed to have faith in a new look? How do you?
Were you sold on losing? Why such faith and hope (i know
U like the knicks) but seriously, what do you expect?
Do you think we will land great two way players needed to off set the limitations of this approach? Do you feel we can get by with offense only and mediocre D?
All that is next to impossible, no matter how you slice it.
I see, according to you I over analyze..is that jargon for "I don't have a response to your various points so I won't begin to debate them"?
Was I sold on losing? We are the 6th seed and OVERACHIEVING from where everyone including you thought at the beginning of the year. According to you the season was over the "verdict was in" 10 games into the season. Now that we are the 6th seed and your verdict was proven laughable why have you not evolved your thinking? To an objective viewer it looks like you formed an opinion on our coach and are holding on to it regardless of what happens.
Further, in other threads i have already pointed out that it is absurd to think D'ant does not care, coach or teach defense. Further, no one has ever articulated how an offensive system means one cannot play effective defense. Lets blame the coach while ignoring the players and the lack of size!
Last edited by TR1LL10N; Feb 15, 2011 at 10:00.
ARE you on drugs? 6th seed in the East means NOTHING!!!!!!!
BEHIND Bos, Mia, Chi, and Orl...
Mind as well say we made strides by having an allstar get voted on. In the grand scheme means nothing. Dont get it twisted.
2nd in ppg, 29th in opg. You think that's a coincidence? Really? One has nothing to do with the other? You, of all peple who can supposedly analyze objectively, haven't figured that out. Wow.
How much evidence do you need... on top of the fact it hasn't won given plenty of ample opportunity?
Wow, you know what, out of all the arguing and insults and whatever, you have yet to prove you can analyze objectively. You have yet to show you understand the limits and what needs changing.
That's insane, according to Einstein. All the evidence suggests
MDA is nothing more than an offensive coordinator. That's it. Again preaching and teaching are 2 different things. There is nothing with mda's defense to teach. Rotations.... seriously? Putting Jared Jeffries or Chandler on the opponents best player.... really?
If Mda was 1/2 the defensive coach he is offensive then maybe he has a shot at a chip.
And I am more than aware of MDA's (and the media, msg) increased usage of Defensive vernacular when being interviewed or on the sidelines. Its so obvious to me, he chooses spots to over emphasize defense to the viewing public, for his rep.
But I'll look at it like this, I don't think eveyone has the ability to see if defense is taught or spoken. I do, and when I see it I'll let you know.
There is so much here it is hard to parse out, but I do want to address that if we had a different coach it wouldn't solve our size problem. D'Antoni is the reason for that problem. He wants smaller teams for his offense. How many times have we seen him. Go small (First Lakers Game This Year) and get burned by it. This is how D'Antoni like his system, and he either has to change his mind or we are going to need a different coach to accept us more all-around plyers into the line-up.