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Thread: What has Damntoni Done?

  1. #106
    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    I disagree. I think top to bottom the Bulls are one of the best, most complementary rosters in the league.
    Well how is our team supposed to be complementary if MDA sits alot of the guys on the bench

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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    I love how you always find a way to defend MDA.The bulls have only a little bit more talent than we do (and don't even say they have Noah because he was injured since early december).Why do they have better record than us?because when they don't just rely on offense they have defense so when there shots are knocking down they can still win.Please stop defending MDA and his flawed system.
    Riiight. The Bulls have a little more talent. I love how you pose a question like "why do they have a better record than us" and then state your opinion as the absolute truth and answer without detailing why.

    I have gone into great detail to back up my assertions and until someone can actually make a cogent argument against any of my points I will stand by my points.

    Are you referring to superior coaching like not playing Rose and Boozer for almost entire 4th against us? BTW, didn't we beat the Bulls twice this year so far?

  3. #108
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    How are the two bolded statements consistent? On one hand you acknowledge that they have better defenders and then default back to "if only coach could squeeze defensive blood from a stone we would be right with Atlanta". (paraphrasing)
    Not saying we would be as good, but we would be right around where the are. Again, thanks for answering my question.

    We DO play similar defense to Atlanta on the whole. Are we better? No. But we aren't being blown away on the # of points per possession we give up, it's relatively close between a large chunk of teams in the middle...there are 7 teams sort of bunched at the top, a bunch of teams in the middle, and a number of teams bunched at the bottom. We are in the middle with ATL. It's 3 points per 100 possessions, we play similar defense per possession to ATL. The real problem is rebounding, we aren't even doing the BASICS when it comes to rebounding, which I see as a problem in personnel.
    KBlack -- rebounding is a problem (which has been helped with D'Antoni playing Mozgov more often), but defense is where we are seeing are greatest downfalls. When our offense stutters, you get this sinking feeling that we won't be able to close out games because we rarely get consistent stops (especially against the better teams).

    The Knicks can play better defense then they are now, but its not emphasized.

  4. #109
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Riiight. The Bulls have a little more talent. I love how you pose a question like "why do they have a better record than us" and then state your opinion as the absolute truth and answer without detailing why.

    I have gone into great detail to back up my assertions and until someone can actually make a cogent argument against any of my points I will stand by my points.

    Are you referring to superior coaching like not playing Rose and Boozer for almost entire 4th against us? BTW, didn't we beat the Bulls twice this year so far?
    Bulls have better all-around players... The Knicks have mostly offensive minded players.

    The Bulls are a great defensive team. The Knicks are not.

    Those two points right there are both made because of D'Antoni's flawed philosophy.

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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    I have seen your points and successfully addressed and successfully refuted them in this thread and others. I asked you once question, which you have refused to answer...

    With the way D'Antoni "preaches" defense, could you really see us winning a championship?
    No you have not addressed my points. In fact I think the first time we have ever engaged is in this thread when I started what has now become this lame off-topic volley. I am on record and have presented my points multiple times including the reasoning behind it and went so far as to support my points with an article and quotes from Jared Jefferies. If you wish to dispute any of those points, quote them, post your reasons (no, stating the contrary is not good enough) and I will be glad to have a debate. You are entitled to state your assertions as fact without backing them up but know I am also entitled to point that out in the hopes of elevating the discussion.

  6. #111
    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Riiight. The Bulls have a little more talent. I love how you pose a question like "why do they have a better record than us" and then state your opinion as the absolute truth and answer without detailing why.

    I have gone into great detail to back up my assertions and until someone can actually make a cogent argument against any of my points I will stand by my points.

    Are you referring to superior coaching like not playing Rose and Boozer for almost entire 4th against us? BTW, didn't we beat the Bulls twice this year so far?
    Why are you trying your heart out to sound intelligent?"BTW, didn't we beat the Bulls twice this year so far"?BTW don't the bulls have a better record than us?

  7. #112
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX

    KBlack -- rebounding is a problem (which has been helped with D'Antoni playing Mozgov more often), but defense is where we are seeing are greatest downfalls. When our offense stutters, you get this sinking feeling that we won't be able to close out games because we rarely get consistent stops (especially against the better teams).

    The Knicks can play better defense then they are now, but its not emphasized.
    I am a stickler for rebounding...I have a whole long theory on it but it's too long and complicated to post here on a whim, but to me rebounding and free throw shooting are the two most important things in a hoops game. If I had time and the need I could prob. do a decent statistical study on it.

  8. #113
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    Not saying we would be as good, but we would be right around where the are. Again, thanks for answering my question.



    KBlack -- rebounding is a problem (which has been helped with D'Antoni playing Mozgov more often), but defense is where we are seeing are greatest downfalls. When our offense stutters, you get this sinking feeling that we won't be able to close out games because we rarely get consistent stops (especially against the better teams).

    The Knicks can play better defense then they are now, but its not emphasized.
    It has less to do with emphasis and more to do with installation and application. Do something, anything, even Dallas went to the 2-3 matchup zone based on their belief that they don't have the right players for man-to-man defensive schemes. Sure they could sit Chandler, slide Dirk over to the 5, and throw Marion into the starting lineup as a 4 and play a more uptempo style, and try to score 150ppg...but they didn't...they found a way to get some defensive stops and build their offense around what they had.

    They tailored the gameplan to the roster, not the other way around.

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    I am a stickler for rebounding...I have a whole long theory on it but it's too long and complicated to post here on a whim, but to me rebounding and free throw shooting are the two most important things in a hoops game. If I had time and the need I could prob. do a decent statistical study on it.
    I would be interested in it, should you do the study. I believe boarding is a key element to winning games, too.

  10. #115
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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    I would be interested in it, should you do the study. I believe boarding is a key element to winning games, too.
    Basically it has to do with the fact that good shooters and bad shooters miss close to the same amount of attempts per game, so that whether you are a good shooting team or a bad one, almost always the number of rebounds going up for grabs stays somewhat similar. Getting a high percentage of rebounds (and retaining or regaining possession in the process) is much more important than finding "good" shooters, in the long run.

    As for Free Throws...well, they can be one of two things: Free Throws, or Foul Shots. A team that takes Free Throws gets free points. A team that takes Foul Shots gets points wiped off the board that they should be getting. The year Dallas was really good they brought in a free throw coach, the only team in the league to do it. Coincidence that they finished top team in the league that year? Maybe, but probably not.

    I would bet that if I took the W-L record of teams that outrebounded and shot a better free throw percentage than their opponents, it would be insanely high. That is what a lengthy study would do...just use it to show that rebounding + free throw percentage are up there as the most important factors in determining win/loss.

  11. #116
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    It has less to do with emphasis and more to do with installation and application. Do something, anything, even Dallas went to the 2-3 matchup zone based on their belief that they don't have the right players for man-to-man defensive schemes. Sure they could sit Chandler, slide Dirk over to the 5, and throw Marion into the starting lineup as a 4 and play a more uptempo style, and try to score 150ppg...but they didn't...they found a way to get some defensive stops and build their offense around what they had.

    They tailored the gameplan to the roster, not the other way around.
    Good point. Wrong word choice. D'Antoni will say defense, but they never actually practically implement it. I have seen games where their rotations are spot on and they anticipate where the ball is going. They help out on the weak side and really look like a great team.

    Then I see (most) games where its like they forgot how to play defense all together. Guys get into the lane way too easily, one guy rotates (late), and then no one else rotates to cover his man. Just sadness defined.

    I grew up with the mid-90's Knicks. I grew up on a fundamental basketball. I grew up with a back-to-the-basket post presence. I know that is not what we have, but we need to at least defend. We need to play tough on both sides of he floor, but because of our style of play, I think our players are just too tired to play defense many games. That's why we don't see it as often (an especially as of late).

    The All-Star Break is well needed at this point.

  12. #117
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    I am a stickler for rebounding...I have a whole long theory on it but it's too long and complicated to post here on a whim, but to me rebounding and free throw shooting are the two most important things in a hoops game. If I had time and the need I could prob. do a decent statistical study on it.
    Yea I agree too. Rebounding and free throws directly leads to extra possessions and getting other teams out of what they want to accomplish against you.

    But we do the exact opposite. It's not only about how many FTs you take per game (those numbers could get misleading with a guy like STAT on the team) but you should probably try to use more of the shot clock and keep the possibility of getting to the line open...early shots kills both of those tactics. Offense should be inside out, and defense should be outside in. But instead we look for the early outside shot, and we let everyone penetrate from the outside to make attempts around the basket, and every once in a while our guys will but their athleticism on display and block a shot. But the opposition is getting to the spot they want, when they want to, and they're allowed to do what they want to.

  13. #118
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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    Bulls have better all-around players... The Knicks have mostly offensive minded players.

    The Bulls are a great defensive team. The Knicks are not.

    Those two points right there are both made because of D'Antoni's flawed philosophy.
    Thanks for proving my point that it is the roster that hurts our defense and not the system. It also proves my other major point that changing coaches won't make up for that and it would take dramtically altering our roster 1/2 year into phase one of a two phase rebuild.

    Those two points do not portend to anything having to do with Mikes philosophy. Are you saying we should not have picked up Amare or Felton? Were those pickups a result of obtaining the best players available or some attempt to placate D'ants system?

    Further, we traded David Lee for 3 DEFENSIVE players in an attempt to sure up our D.

    Azbuikie - potential all-star wing and elite perimeter defender. (when healthy)
    Turiaf- Heart, hustle, defense and rebounding. (when healthy)
    AR- potential is that of a two way player that can guard any position, alter shots and grab boards.

    But how could this be!? D'ant only wants offensive players on his team as you assert yet we picked up 3 defenders...

    Just to reiterate another one of my many points that you seem hellbent on ignoring evidenced by this latest post:

    Jeffries, in fact, presents a strong counter-argument to those who contend that D’Antoni cares only about offense. Jeffries was easily the Knicks’ least skilled offensive player. Yet he started 37 of 52 games this season and was sixth in minutes per game (28.1). He led the Knicks in charges drawn.
    “I think that Mike’s a realist,’’ Jeffries said. “Defending, like anything else in the NBA, is a talent level. And you can’t have people that are not great defenders and expect them to be great defenders. Just like you can’t have people that aren’t great scorers and expect them to be great scorers. He put me out there to be a defender and he puts guys out there to be scorers. He does focus on defense, but if you don’t have defensive players, then you’re not going to be a great defensive team.’’
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Just the facts folks!

  14. #119
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    Why are you trying your heart out to sound intelligent?"BTW, didn't we beat the Bulls twice this year so far"?BTW don't the bulls have a better record than us?
    I don't have to try buddy but evidently you do...and have so far failed. Yes, they have a better record and a better roster. Oh and yea, we did beat them twice and Thibedaue was such an excellent coach that he left Rose and Boozer on the bench and let the Knicks steal a game in Chi-town

  15. #120
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Basically it has to do with the fact that good shooters and bad shooters miss close to the same amount of attempts per game, so that whether you are a good shooting team or a bad one, almost always the number of rebounds going up for grabs stays somewhat similar. Getting a high percentage of rebounds (and retaining or regaining possession in the process) is much more important than finding "good" shooters, in the long run.

    As for Free Throws...well, they can be one of two things: Free Throws, or Foul Shots. A team that takes Free Throws gets free points. A team that takes Foul Shots gets points wiped off the board that they should be getting. The year Dallas was really good they brought in a free throw coach, the only team in the league to do it. Coincidence that they finished top team in the league that year? Maybe, but probably not.

    I would bet that if I took the W-L record of teams that outrebounded and shot a better free throw percentage than their opponents, it would be insanely high. That is what a lengthy study would do...just use it to show that rebounding + free throw percentage are up there as the most important factors in determining win/loss.
    Makes sense. So, if I'm reading this correctly, larger guys who can board and shoot high free throw percentages (Andrew Bynum/Pau Gasol) are some of the best players to have on your team.

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