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Thread: OFFICIAL: ANTI-D'Antoni Thread

  1. #151
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    So if one your kids grew up to be a fine young adult, and had a girlfriend, but he didn't brush his teeth because you never taught him to...she has been with him for a couple of months after two decades of not doing it. Him not brushing his teeth would be her fault, not yours.




    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    He was clearly being tongue-in-cheek.

    And what I was referring to was you saying he played over 11 minutes once. I showed that factually untrue. I also showed that you claim to "never massage the facts." Then I caught you doing it. Care to comment?
    OK. I've come to the conclusion you're an idiot. MDA was joking. Thats your only defense?

  2. #152
    Veteran STAT1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    That you didn't even read through the thread carefully says everything. As someone who's been here for a bit let me just pass this on: Start w reading the thread dude so you can understand where the debate has gone. Then comment.

    Oh, and I'm a passionate Knicks fan. You better get used to that around here.
    It's all good bro, we're all passionate Knick fans otherwise we wouldn't be posting on a fan forum in the first place. Just laying out my opinion to be heard, that's all. I'm no newbie to posting on forums I've been doing it for years, just decided to move on to this one after growing disenchanted with the last place I was posting on, way too many homers who were intolerant of an alternative point of view. So far this place seems like you got a good group of knowledgeable guys, I'm happy to be here.

  3. #153
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    According to ESPN you are.. What about the rest of what i posted re: Mike D's great seasons w the Suns?? There was evidently some defensive focus right?

  4. #154
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Clydeandthepearl,

    Any response to the evidence I posted? Or can we just say that you've been officially KO'd..

    I posted hard stats dude.. What do you have to say?
    Dude you lost this argument the minute you entered the thread. MDA's quotes officially saw to that.

    NEXT TOPIC PLEASE!!!

  5. #155
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    Originally Posted by StatVP
    I actually think Ray Felton is a big part of the reason in the improvement in defense you've seen this year, he brings that kind of mentality with him, he was coached up by Larry Brown in Charlotte he's always been known as a bulldog & competitor & he knows the importance of defense because he's learned this from other coaches he's played under. He wasn't born into the game of basketball as a defensive player, he was taught how to become one.

    Let me just be clear, when I see individual players slacking on man-defense I blame the player first & foremost. But, when I see bad defensive rotations, guys looking at one another expecting the other to pick up their man on help defense & a general lack of intensity throughout the game on the defensive end, & then I watch D'Antoni with his arms folded on the sidelines with a pouty face and nothing changing after timeouts & empty quotes about having to pick up the intensity on the defensive side of the ball after games we've lost, then I blame the coaching for not drilling the importance of it into these players. Playing defense is a mindset, not a physical gift where some players have it & some players don't. As a coach it's your job to instill that kind of mindset into your players. If your team isn't stepping up their effort on the defense & looking clueless on defensive rotations, then I think the coach should be held accountable.
    Very well put. +1...

  6. #156
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StatVP
    I actually think Ray Felton is a big part of the reason in the improvement in defense you've seen this year, he brings that kind of mentality with him, he was coached up by Larry Brown in Charlotte he's always been known as a bulldog & competitor & he knows the importance of defense because he's learned this from other coaches he's played under. He wasn't born into the game of basketball as a defensive player, he was taught how to become one.

    Let me just be clear, when I see individual players slacking on man-defense I blame the player first & foremost. But, when I see bad defensive rotations, guys looking at one another expecting the other to pick up their man on help defense & a general lack of intensity throughout the game on the defensive end, & then I watch D'Antoni with his arms folded on the sidelines with a pouty face and nothing changing after timeouts & empty quotes about having to pick up the intensity on the defensive side of the ball after games we've lost, then I blame the coaching for not drilling the importance of it into these players. Playing defense is a mindset, not a physical gift where some players have it & some players don't. As a coach it's your job to instill that kind of mindset into your players. If your team isn't stepping up their effort on the defense & looking clueless on defensive rotations, then I think the coach should be held accountable.
    On the contrary, I think defense IS a natural skillset that some players have and some players don't. Dwight Howard, Bruce Bowen, Artest, all those guys are just naturally good at defense and probably had it beaten into them at an early age. I mean when I see guys not collapsing, not helping on defense, I can't help but blame the players. When I played, and even now when I play pickup, guys who are not very good and do not do this for a living are able to switch, are able to play help defense...there is no coach, no "philosophy" in pick up games, no mindset. These are basic tenets of the game that players SHOULD understand. There are some that don't, those guys seem to be populating our team.

    I only used Ray as an example b/c I watched him get burned by Bledsoe and Davis at the last game I went to, not to single him out. I do think he is rather good, I think he is better in an uptempo system though, like last year when he played against us, and we tried to run against Ray/G-Wall and Felton was throwing oops all day. He is just not a guy I think that is good in a Larry Brown system, but he is very fast in our system.

    And unlike Clyde and the Pearl will have you believe, I got no hate for you if you come in and debate intelligently and logically, and you own up to facts. I just don't think he does, and I'm not alone in that opinion.

  7. #157
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    OK. I've come to the conclusion you're an idiot. MDA was joking. Thats your only defense?
    Fine, I will take your statements seriously, even though I have seen him mess around with reporters before and speak tongue-in-cheek. But if I take his quotes seriously, then I take all of them seriously, and I go back to what I've seen when he is mic'd up, in the lockerroom, and in a few practice videos I have seen of him preaching and teaching defense. If I take everything you posted completely seriously, how then can you, on the other end, not take the other stuff he says equally seriously.

    And still, no comment about massaging the AR facts? Pathetic.

  8. #158
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Dude you lost this argument the minute you entered the thread. MDA's quotes officially saw to that.

    NEXT TOPIC PLEASE!!!
    Again,

    Run forest Run lol...

    I can't believe your going to just disregard relevant statistical evidence and then declare victory.. The true definition of a fraud.

    But then again, I've seen you do it repeatedly w Kblack so I shouldn't be surprised.

  9. #159
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Again,

    Run forest Run lol...

    I can't believe your going to just disregard relevant statistical evidence and then declare victory.. The true definition of a fraud.

    But then again, I've seen you do it repeatedly w Kblack so I shouldn't be surprised.
    Am I missing something? Are MDA's quotes fraudlent? I just figure if you and Black are idiots enough to argue for MDA and any sort of defensive philosophy, but against what he says he stands for himself you probably wont mind debating yourself. Because basically thats what you're doing. There really is nothing there.

    I'll let you two go at it if you insist on continuing this charade.

  10. #160
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    On the contrary, I think defense IS a natural skillset that some players have and some players don't. Dwight Howard, Bruce Bowen, Artest, all those guys are just naturally good at defense and probably had it beaten into them at an early age. I mean when I see guys not collapsing, not helping on defense, I can't help but blame the players. When I played, and even now when I play pickup, guys who are not very good and do not do this for a living are able to switch, are able to play help defense...there is no coach, no "philosophy" in pick up games, no mindset. These are basic tenets of the game that players SHOULD understand. There are some that don't, those guys seem to be populating our team. [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Kevin/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/Kevin/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.png[/IMG]

    I only used Ray as an example b/c I watched him get burned by Bledsoe and Davis at the last game I went to, not to single him out. I do think he is rather good, I think he is better in an uptempo system though, like last year when he played against us, and we tried to run against Ray/G-Wall and Felton was throwing oops all day. He is just not a guy I think that is good in a Larry Brown system, but he is very fast in our system.
    Chances are the players that are good defensively that you play with on the playground were all at some point taught to play with that type of mindset by the people teaching them the game. Yes, there maybe some cases where a player has grown up trying to pattern themselves to emulate a great defensive NBA player they have idolized, but no one's born into the basketball world with some special gift of knowing how to play great defense. It is a learned skill, just like any other basketball skill other than just being athletically gifted. In the end the buck always stops with the players to apply these learned skills, but you can't fault a player if he's not being taught these skills to begin with. When you have a player like STAT come out publically saying that he was never taught how to play defense until Alvin Gentry became the head coach in Phoenix, it's a pretty damning statement on D'Antoni's coaching philosophy, no?

    In regards to Ray, I agree with you I've always felt he was much better suited for an uptempo style game. He used to run the break a lot in NC that's more his style of game. He had issues getting along with Larry Brown in Charlotte because of all the demands he sets on his PG's, which is nothing new for guys that run the point playing for him, but 1 thing is he definitely benefitted from having coach Brown drill the importance of playing D into his skull. If I recall correctly Chauncey Billups was never a really great defensive player until he got to Detroit & got to play for Larry Brown. I could be wrong on this if I am feel free to correct me.

  11. #161
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Plain and simple, @ the NBA level it comes down to the players be willing to give the effort @ the defensive end. All of them know how to stay in front of somebody, or take a charge, or get a steal by the time they get to the league. It's just nonsense to say otherwise. It's also important to understand that by the time these players come to the league they have certain tendencies. Some guys like Nash and STAT can only get so much better on defense.

    To me the single most important thing that will determine how much effort our guys are ABLE to give is the length of the rotation. I believe the system tires guys more due to what we do at the offense end. The best way to mitigate the "offensive minded effect" if you will, is to spread minutes around more liberally so guys have the energy to give effort defensively the team needs.

    It would also be nice if the second unit in our 10 man rotation were guys that can play D. I want that second unit to be more of defensive unit that can go out and cause turnovers, get stops and give effort.

    Coach can implement this type of rotation and tell them to go out and be focused defensively - that's his part- those players he brings into the game need to have the desire and the ability to execute what he is deploying tho or it just won't work.

  12. #162
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    Originally Posted by StatVP
    Chances are the players that are good defensively that you play with on the playground were all at some point taught to play with that type of mindset by the people teaching them the game. Yes, there maybe some cases where a player has grown up trying to pattern themselves to emulate a great defensive NBA player they have idolized, but no one's born into the basketball world with some special gift of knowing how to play great defense. It is a learned skill, just like any other basketball skill other than just being athletically gifted. In the end the buck always stops with the players to apply these learned skills, but you can't fault a player if he's not being taught these skills to begin with. When you have a player like STAT come out publically saying that he was never taught how to play defense until Alvin Gentry became the head coach in Phoenix, it's a pretty damning statement on D'Antoni's coaching philosophy, no?

    In regards to Ray, I agree with you I've always felt he was much better suited for an uptempo style game. He used to run the break a lot in NC that's more his style of game. He had issues getting along with Larry Brown in Charlotte because of all the demands he sets on his PG's, which is nothing new for guys that run the point playing for him, but 1 thing is he definitely benefitted from having coach Brown drill the importance of playing D into his skull. If I recall correctly Chauncey Billups was never a really great defensive player until he got to Detroit & got to play for Larry Brown. I could be wrong on this if I am feel free to correct me.
    I haven't seen the quote you are referring to...but it's not like Gentry came in and STAT all of a sudden started playing incredible defense. He still was limited defensively, even in the Gentry years. So even if Gentry came in preaching defense, it did not really cause STAT to all of a sudden be a stellar defensive stud, he was basically the same player. Which builds on my theory that it is the player, not the coach, that REALLY determines defense. Coaching might help, but it definitely is going to take more than 40 games to correct what has happened over the last 26 years for some of these guys, and even then there is a lot of natural intuition and early-age conditioning that factors.

    I am not sure about Chauncey before Brown, I was too young to remember, but Chauncey benefited in Detroit from playing with a GREAT defensive starting lineup, including The Wall Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun Prince. We don't have anyone even LIKE those 3.

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Plain and simple, @ the NBA level it comes down to the players be willing to give the effort @ the defensive end. All of them know how to stay in front of somebody, or take a charge, or get a steal by the time they get to the league. It's just nonsense to say otherwise.
    I don't know who taught STAT how to play basketball, he's obviously never been to college being drafted straight out of HS, but when he comes out in the media & says no one taught him how to play defense until Gentry took over the reigns at Phoenix, I don't see how you can consider it nonsense to consider the fact that D'Antoni failed in that specific capacity as his head coach.

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    Friday, November 26th, 2010 at 11:30 am
    Amar’e Stoudemire: ‘I Was Never Taught Defense’


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] tells the NY press corps that he wasn’t properly coached on how to play defense ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]), but that he’s made it a [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].



    From the NY Daily News:



    “Stoudemire says defense is more of a priority than at any point in his career as he proved on Wednesday with six blocked shots against the Bobcats.


    He’s still not a great one-on-one defender but Stoudemire produced the defensive play of the game by rejecting Stephen Jackson’s potential go-ahead dunk with 35 seconds left after Jackson had driven past Danilo Gallinari on the perimeter.


    ‘When trying to win ball games, defense is what does it,’ Stoudemire said. ‘Getting stops, getting rebounds … it’s imperative for me to bring that defensive intensity.’


    The falling out D’Antoni and Stoudemire had in Phoenix centered on D’Antoni feeling that Stoudemire lacked focus on defense. The irony of course is that D’Antoni has a reputation for not stressing defense (although he’ll gladly debate anyone who says just that.)


    Stoudemire doesn’t argue that his reputation as a poor defensive player was well deserved and seemed to suggest that D’Antoni was indirectly responsible.


    ‘It was fair,’ he said. ‘I was never taught defense. I just never was taught it in high school and also in the NBA.’ Stoudemire added that prior to his final season with the Suns ‘I took it upon myself to get better defensively’ and that Phoenix head coach Alvin Gentry was responsible for that new outlook. ‘I’ve got to give it to Alvin Gentry,’ Stoudemire added. ‘He really implemented some strategies that were helpful to me. I took what I learned last year and carried it over to this year.’”

  14. #164
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    That is a problem if he was never taught D in the NBA. I have a hard time believing that though. How could he have never been taught to any fundamentals in the NBA?

    I think the onus is on him to put in the effort. I mean what does it really take to stay in front of somebody-- effort, willingness. Phoenix has schemes i'm sure he would have had to learn. That is a retarded comment on the part of STAT that I have a hard time believing as fact. Some of it, i think, comes from the disagreements between he and coach when they were together on Phoenix.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Feb 20, 2011 at 19:11.

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    Originally Posted by StatVP
    I don't know who taught STAT how to play basketball, he's obviously never been to college being drafted straight out of HS, but when he comes out in the media & says no one taught him how to play defense until Gentry took over the reigns at Phoenix, I don't see how you can consider it nonsense to consider the fact that D'Antoni failed in that specific capacity as his head coach.

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    STATVP these guys wont get it. They'll continue to claim they dont understand, or MDA was playing or STAT has to be first team all defense. Anything to circumvent your CORRECT argument.

    You've won the war but this battle is lost. They'll never admit to defeat.Even though their general (MDA) sent them out guns empty and with no ammunition. Hell those quotes are akin to him telling the enemy they were coming.

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