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Thread: OFFICIAL: ANTI-D'Antoni Thread

  1. #166
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    That is a problem if he was never taught D in the NBA. I have a hard time believing that though.
    Yep. STAT said it himself and you have a hard time beliving it. How'd I know this would be your reply? Makes my analogy mcuh clearer to you doesnt it. Dont worry I know you wont admit your argument is toast. Its just funney as hell watching you try to squirm your way out of each and every fact presented to you.

  2. #167
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    I haven't seen the quote you are referring to...but it's not like Gentry came in and STAT all of a sudden started playing incredible defense. He still was limited defensively, even in the Gentry years. So even if Gentry came in preaching defense, it did not really cause STAT to all of a sudden be a stellar defensive stud, he was basically the same player. Which builds on my theory that it is the player, not the coach, that REALLY determines defense. Coaching might help, but it definitely is going to take more than 40 games to correct what has happened over the last 26 years for some of these guys, and even then there is a lot of natural intuition and early-age conditioning that factors.

    I am not sure about Chauncey before Brown, I was too young to remember, but Chauncey benefited in Detroit from playing with a GREAT defensive starting lineup, including The Wall Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun Prince. We don't have anyone even LIKE those 3.
    I provided the quote above, you are free to interpret STAT's comments any way you wish.

    I agree that having other elite defensive players helps you play better defense yourself. When you don't have to focus on covering for other players' lapses you can focus more on your own man, that's just logic. Having more defensive minded players on the roster would certainly help guys like STAT who've never been known to be strong defensively, no doubt about it.

    But the problem lies in the coach's philosophical approach to the game, because of his high emphasis on playing uptempo and high octane scoring, the types of players that Donnie Walsh targets is sorta limited. His rotations are also often determined by the players that can hit open jumpers and bring something offensively to the table. Yes, it's true he's playing Ronny Turiaf and has played guys like Jared Jeffries in the past, but that was out of absolute necessity. No coach is going to only play offensive minded players, but in general their rotations are directly influenced by the type of system they want to run. Ben Wallace became a defensive star player in Detroit playing for Larry Brown because he had a defensive approach, a defensive philosophy to the system he was trying to run. Wallace would never have had that same opportunity if he'd stayed in Orlando because the system they were running was more offensively oriented.

  3. #168
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    That is a problem if he was never taught D in the NBA. I have a hard time believing that though. How could he have never been taught to any fundamentals in the NBA?

    I think the onus is on him to put in the effort. I mean what does it really take to stay in front of somebody-- effort, willingness. Phoenix has schemes i'm sure he would have had to learn. That is a retarded comment on the part of STAT that I have a hard time believing as fact. Some of it, i think, comes from the disagreements between he and coach when they were together on Phoenix.

    Obviously the onus is on every player to apply the skills that they are taught, but if you're not being taught these skills how does one learn is the issue I'm arguing here. STAT said himself ‘I took it upon myself to get better defensively’ but he also added that Coach Gentry played a big role in taking on that new mindset ‘He really implemented some strategies that were helpful to me. I took what I learned last year and carried it over to this year.'

    Like you said yourself it is a problem if STAT was never taught D in the NBA. I think it points to a general lack of importance that D'Antoni places on that aspect of the game. Not to say that he tells his guys NOT to play defense obviously & not even to say that he never coaches defense at all, but in general he needs to drill a much bigger emphasis on that aspect of the game if he expects his players to up their effort.

  4. #169
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    I found this piece interesting and I think you mean Terry Porter Statmvp:

    AMARE STOUDEMIRE: THE BAD DEFENSE ISN’T MY FAULT
    BY AUSTIN BURTON

    Amare Stoudemire, Dime #14
    In an interview with a Phoenix Suns TV program, Amare Stoudemire praises new coach Terry Porter while taking a backhanded swipe at Mike D’Antoni:

    “I love Terry Porter, his method,” Stoudemire says in the interview. “His way of coaching is going to be great for us. You know, he’s extremely focused on the defensive end, something that we haven’t practiced at all in the previous three years, and now we’re definitely practicing and improving on the defensive end.”

    Now from a team standpoint, I can almost believe STAT’s claim that D’Antoni didn’t practice defense. I’ve talked to Team USA players like D-Wade and Carlos Boozer about the way D’Antoni would perk up in practice when it came time to work on offense, but was almost invisible during defensive time. But never one defensive drill in three years? He didn’t have an assistant whose job was to focus on defense?

    And if Amare is looking to blame D’Antoni for his own personal defensive deficiencies, he’s in the wrong. At the pro level, every player has to take it upon himself to improve individual parts of his game, including defense. I’m sure D’Antoni’s lessons didn’t include, “Stand straight up while Mehmet Okur blows by you for a dunk.”


    I'm in agreement w the above..

  5. #170
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Yep. STAT said it himself and you have a hard time beliving it. How'd I know this would be your reply? Makes my analogy mcuh clearer to you doesnt it. Dont worry I know you wont admit your argument is toast. Its just funney as hell watching you try to squirm your way out of each and every fact presented to you.
    I suppose you don't put any stock in the fact that it's no secret Mike D and STAT had a falling out. Don't you think Amare feeding the negative perception that Mike D doesn't coach defense at all might have something to do w that?? You gotta admit it's pretty thin to say you were never taught any defense since you were in the league. That sh*t just doesn't sound right.

  6. #171
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    rono, STAT directly referenced Coach Gentry's name in the quote I referenced

    ‘I’ve got to give it to Alvin Gentry,’ Stoudemire added. ‘He really implemented some strategies that were helpful to me. I took what I learned last year and carried it over to this year.’”
    I don't know what Terry Porter taught him but the article you referenced is just further proof that MDA placed so little importance on drilling the defensive aspect of the game in STAT's eyes. That to me is a major problem.

  7. #172
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    Originally Posted by StatVP
    rono, STAT directly referenced Coach Gentry's name in the quote I referenced

    I don't know what Terry Porter taught him but the article you referenced is just further proof that MDA placed so little importance on drilling the defensive aspect of the game in STAT's eyes. That to me is a major problem.
    Yea you did. That I will admit.

    But i will not admit that Mike D isn't effective on the defensive end when his old Phoenix teams were consistently ranked middle of the pack in defense per 100 possessions. These are results and statistical facts the both of you seem to conveniently ignore while continuing to post, and believe unwaveringly, nonsensical quotes from a player who by all accounts disliked our coach up until this summer. Lame.

    STATS quote and my stats don't jibe guys. What say you??

  8. #173
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Yea you did. That I will admit.

    But i will not admit that Mike D isn't effective on the defensive end when his old Phoenix teams were consistently ranked middle of the pack in defense per 100 possessions. These are results and statistical facts the both of you seem to conveniently ignore while continuing to post, and believe unwaveringly, nonsensical quotes from a player who by all accounts disliked our coach up until this summer. Lame.

    STATS quote and my stats don't jibe guys. What say you??


    LMAO. Did you say middle of the pack? As in AVERAGE? LMAO. WOW. Average isnt accomplishing much...

  9. #174
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl


    LMAO. Did you say middle of the pack? As in AVERAGE? LMAO. WOW. Average isnt accomplishing much...
    Yes but according to you Mike D doesn't place any emphasis on defense. Don't scale it back now CATP. I clearly proved that he has gotten results on the defensive end, which along w his incredible offenses has produced great reg seasons and deep playoff runs. You can't run from that. It's there for all to see, if they have an open mind.

    With good enough players, similar focus and results w D-rating and the uber productive scoring star players will bring, that could be enough to win a chip.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Feb 20, 2011 at 19:29.

  10. #175
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    This is what you asked Kblack a few pages back: "What exactly do you see with this team defensively?"

    I posted clear statistical evidence that support Mike D can get results defensively.

    Now you push the goal post farther(ty Isayyugh) by calling said results "average".

    I even showed how our team has improved from last year to this year and all you can continue to do is cling to those thin, at best, remarks from STAT, who we all kno sux @defense.

    I'm sorry to say it, but you really are an awful poster Clydeandthepearl..
    Last edited by ronoranina; Feb 20, 2011 at 19:15.

  11. #176
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Yea you did. That I will admit.

    But i will not admit that Mike D isn't effective on the defensive end when his old Phoenix teams were consistently ranked middle of the pack in defense per 100 possessions. These are results and statistical facts the both of you seem to conveniently ignore while continuing to post, and believe unwaveringly, nonsensical quotes from a player who by all accounts disliked our coach up until this summer. Lame.

    STATS quote and my stats don't jibe guys. What say you??
    As far as the stats you posted I apologize I haven't seen which ones you are referring to. There are all kinds of stats you can reference in determining what kind of defense a team is playing. Right now the Knicks are ranked #1 in blocked shots per game, but #15 in point per game differential. To me that says we're doing a great job of contesting shots but only doing an average job of getting defensive stops. We're also -1.3 in Field Goals Made differential which means we're allowing more shots than we're making during games, which sorta points to the fact we're not playing good defense. We're also -.953 in Field Goal Percentage differential which means we allow our opponents a slightly higher shooting percentage than we're able to muster on average, more proof that our defense needs improvement if we ever want to be a top contender. Things like pace have no real bearing on differential averages. I'm not ignoring facts in formulating my opinions. I formulate my opinions on empirical evidence all the time, & that always includes checking the numbers. It also includes taking into account what D'Antoni's past players have said and on what I observe while watching games. I can't simply ignore the defensive lapses and consistent lack of intensity in that aspect of the game because you tell me that D'Antoni coaches defense or because of some clips shown on the Mike D'Antoni Show.

  12. #177
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    Originally Posted by StatVP
    As far as the stats you posted I apologize I haven't seen which ones you are referring to. There are all kinds of stats you can reference in determining what kind of defense a team is playing. Right now the Knicks are ranked #1 in blocked shots per game, but #15 in point per game differential. To me that says we're doing a great job of contesting shots but only doing an average job of getting defensive stops. We're also -1.3 in Field Goals Made differential which means we're allowing more shots than we're making during games, which sorta points to the fact we're not playing good defense. We're also -.953 in Field Goal Percentage differential which means we allow our opponents a slightly higher shooting percentage than we're able to muster on average, more proof that our defense needs improvement if we ever want to be a top contender. Things like pace have no real bearing on differential averages. I'm not ignoring facts in formulating my opinions. I formulate my opinions on empirical evidence all the time, & that always includes checking the numbers. It also includes taking into account what D'Antoni's past players have said and on what I observe while watching games. I can't simply ignore the defensive lapses and consistent lack of intensity in that aspect of the game because you tell me that D'Antoni coaches defense or because of some clips shown on the Mike D'Antoni Show.
    STAT I wish I could bump you again. LOL. Great post dude.

  13. #178
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    @ Statmvp,

    Dude, they're in this f*cking thread. Clyde prolly didn't read my post either.. Here, read and learn:

    Originally Posted by ronoranina

    No, actually we're 20th (109.4) currently.

    This is the beginning and good progress from where we were last season (111.6).

    We'll make strides as Mike D gets better players, they become more accustomed to his schemes, and he employs a longer rotation IME.

    Food for thought-- in the seasons where Mike D took Phoenix to the playoffs his Drating (def per 100 possessions) was pretty good, and I think where we'll ultimately end up.

    During the 2007-08 season his Suns had a drating of 108.1, good for 16th in the league; 06-07 - 106.4, good for 13th in the league; 05-06 - 105.8, good for 16th in the league; 04-05 - 107.1, good for 17th in the league. So it's safe to say based on evidence that w his unconventional high scoring system his teams were in the middle of the pack according to the most useful and accurate defensive stat. That would mean there's an emphasis on defense. Don't believe Orating and Drating are the best ways to judge teams offensively and defensively?? Then ya'll need to wake up..

    Check this:

    Points per Possession Rating
    Definition
    Points divided by possessions times 100. Also called simply "Rating", "Offensive Rating" for points scored per 100 possessions, or "Defensive Rating" for points allowed per 100 possessions. A related term is Adjusted Points per Game

    Applicability
    This method applies in a straightforward manner to teams. It can also be applied to individuals, but the method is more complex.

    Discussion
    Points per possession is the best way available to measure the quality of offenses and defenses. The method takes into account points scored, field goal percentage, turnovers, offensive rebounds, and free throw percentage - everything (except for assists and, maybe, fouls) that can justifiably be looked at in measuring offensive or defensive quality. Possessions, as they were defined previously, make such a complete measurement possible. Repeating what is so important: When a team has the ball, its whole purpose is to score as many points as possible before it becomes the defense. If it were easily accomplished, teams would try to get fouled every time, miss the last free throw, get the offensive rebound, try to get fouled, miss the last free throw, etc., never having to play defense. Score lots of points in a possession and you are not giving the opposition a chance to catch up. The most common way to do that now is to score two points every time down the court. Points per possession shows which offenses do it best and which defenses stop it best.
    Wake up people! Last year were actually ranked 30th in d-rating, this year 20th or 21st, depending on where you look lol.. Regardless this is progress. Were getting better and there's still more basketball to be played this season. We're never going to be the in the top ten or five in the league defensively in d-rating, but combined w our unconventional offensive style we don't have to be. This is what you guys don't get.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Feb 20, 2011 at 19:42.

  14. #179
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    Thank you Clyde.

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    This is what you asked Kblack a few pages back: "What exactly do you see with this team defensively?"

    I posted clear statistical evidence that support Mike D can get results defensively.

    Now you push the goal post farther(ty Isayyugh) by calling said results "average".

    I even showed how our team has improved from last year to this year and all you can continue to do is cling to those thin, at best, remarks from STAT, who we all kno sux @defense.

    I'm sorry to say it, but you really are an awful poster Clydeandthepearl..
    Ron, I didnt call the stats average, you did. Unless the meaning of middle of the pack changed in the last hour.

    I know you think I'm awful. Hey what can I say. Your spinning, whirling and circumventing doesn't work with me. I cant help if your argument is lost and you're yet to realize it. I'll let STAT continue to own you from this point forward. He's doing an excellent job of it. I'm actually tired of beating up on you and Black.

    Enjoy tonight's All star game...

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