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Thread: OFFICIAL: ANTI-D'Antoni Thread

  1. #181
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    You said:

    "LMAO. Did you say middle of the pack? As in AVERAGE? LMAO. WOW. Average isnt accomplishing much..."


    The spin master @ work.. Nice..
    Last edited by ronoranina; Feb 20, 2011 at 20:53.

  2. #182
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Ron, I didnt call the stats average, you did. Unless the meaning of middle of the pack changed in the last hour.

    I know you think I'm awful. Hey what can I say. Your spinning, whirling and circumventing doesn't work with me. I cant help if your argument is lost and you're yet to realize it. I'll let STAT continue to own you from this point forward. He's doing an excellent job of it. I'm actually tired of beating up on you and Black.

    Enjoy tonight's All star game...
    Who have you been beating up on?? You've looked like a fool since you started posting here.. You've had zero impact on the forum only since all along.

    I know you'd be an ignoramoid after your first couple of posts when I said to you that, "You're off to a bad start on the forum".

    Well you've done nothing but confirm my early suspicions.

    You're one of the most biased, unknowledgeable, arrogant posters on here and you've failed horribly as you continue to try and indict Mike D.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Feb 20, 2011 at 22:03.

  3. #183
    Veteran STAT1's Avatar
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    rono, let's keep this civil.

    During the 2007-08 season his Suns had a drating of 108.1, good for 16th in the league; 06-07 - 106.4, good for 13th in the league; 05-06 - 105.8, good for 16th in the league; 04-05 - 107.1, good for 17th in the league. So it's safe to say based on evidence that w his unconventional high scoring system his teams were in the middle of the pack according to the most useful and accurate defensive stat. That would mean there's an emphasis on defense.
    As I stated in my last post there's all kinds of stats you can reference to determine what kind of defense your team is playing. I'm not sure how you equate a Points Per Possession ranking that falls in the middle of the pack to MDA's teams putting an emphasis on defense. Teams that consistently place a heavy emphasis on playing defense consistently rank at the top of the NBA in those rankings. My argument is that I don't feel MDA places nearly enough emphasis on that aspect of the game as he needs to in order for this team to be a true championship contender. My sights are set on winning championships, not on watching fun and exciting basketball. I've lived through the Rick Pitino years I know all about high flash uptempo style basketball in NYC. My concern isn't whether or not this type of system will win a lot of regular season games, but whether it will take us to a championship someday.

  4. #184
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StatVP
    rono, let's keep this civil.

    As I stated in my last post there's all kinds of stats you can reference to determine what kind of defense your team is playing. I'm not sure how you equate a Points Per Possession ranking that falls in the middle of the pack to MDA's teams putting an emphasis on defense. Teams that consistently place a heavy emphasis on playing defense consistently rank at the top of the NBA in those rankings. My argument is that I don't feel MDA places nearly enough emphasis on that aspect of the game as he needs to in order for this team to be a true championship contender. My sights are set on winning championships, not on watching fun and exciting basketball. I've lived through the Rick Pitino years I know all about high flash uptempo style basketball in NYC. My concern isn't whether or not this type of system will win a lot of regular season games, but whether it will take us to a championship someday.
    Why don't you take some time and think about it a little bit. My post was comprehensive. You quoted a small slice of it and didn't really ponder what it all meant obviously. I stated where we ranked in d-rating, then posted why this stat is so important in determining how effective a team is defensively. If you and clyde can't get it then i can't help you. There's a big difference between 30th and 13th. Middle of the pack for us, means more because of the way we play offensively. Real heads get this. Mike D knows this. That's why he laughs in the faces of those who try to tell him he needs to better/ elite defensively while quoting stats that are irrelevant to our unconventional team. I utilized the single most meaningful defensive statistic to our team to make my point. I'm sorry, but you guys can't see the forest for the trees.

  5. #185
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    No offense but it doesn't seem like you are fully understanding the purpose of the Points Per Possession Rating stat (D Rating) to begin with. The way we play offensively has zero to do with where we rank in defensive rating. Points per possession rating measures how much scoring you allow per possession, regardless if you're playing high pace or not it is an aggregate of multiple statistical categories, and averages them out over 100 possessions to reach a final number that attempts to demonstrate defensive ranking. In short, what this means is that whether you're playing slow pace or not, the number of possessions you allow over the course of the game has no bearing. Basically it adjusts for the pace at which you play & attempts to demonstrate which teams are actually playing the best defense in the NBA per possession. If you'd like an explanation of this in real world terms you can reference the following example which outlines how OFFENSIVE points per possession rating adjusts for pace:

    As an example, the best offense of the '73-74 season was Milwaukee's with an offensive rating of 99.3, meaning that the Bucks and Kareem Abdul-Jabaar scored 99.3 points per 100 possessions. A normal NBA game in '73-74 had each of the opposing teams using 110.0 possessions to score their points. In such a normal game, the Bucks would score about 109 points (109.2 to be more exact) against an average defense. The Bucks actually employed a very slow pace that season, averaging only 107.9 possessions per game, meaning that they normally didn't score 109.2 points in a game. There were so many teams that had faster paces than the Bucks that seven teams scored more total points. But the Bucks did it better. Milwaukee led the league in field goal percentage and assists and did well in offensive rebounds. The Bucks' 99.3 rating, though it led the league would now be among the worst in the NBA. New Jersey had an offensive rating of 99.9, which was second to last in '87-88. Because the pace of the game is so much slower now, the Nets adjusted points per game rating was 101.7, much lower than the Bucks' 109.2.
    Back to my point, as I pointed out earlier, when you're allowing more field goals than you're making it means you're not Ding up consistently, plain & simple. Before you accuse others of not seeing the forest through the trees it might help to have an intelligent discussion if you wouldn't just ignore all of the points, facts, statistics and evidence being presented to you in this thread. I'm not interested in getting into a mudslinging battle with anyone that's not what I'm here for, I'm here to talk basketball.

  6. #186
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Why don't you take some time and think about it a little bit. My post was comprehensive. You quoted a small slice of it and didn't really ponder what it all meant obviously. I stated where we ranked in d-rating, then posted why this stat is so important in determining how effective a team is defensively. If you and clyde can't get it then i can't help you. There's a big difference between 30th and 13th. Middle of the pack for us, means more because of the way we play offensively. Real heads get this. Mike D knows this. That's why he laughs in the faces of those who try to tell him he needs to better/ elite defensively while quoting stats that are irrelevant to our unconventional team. I utilized the single most meaningful defensive statistic to our team to make my point. I'm sorry, but you guys can't see the forest for the trees.
    You leave out one very important fact. With the KNICKS HIS TEAMS HAVE BEEN IN THE BOTTOM 3rd in defensive rating since he got here. Thats not average but BELOW AVERAGE.

    How you guys can continue to fight this unwinnable fight really speaks for your persistence, but not much about your intelligence.

    The STATS throughout his coaching career bear out MDA's lack of focus on defense. MDA said himself that "the team that scores the most points play the best defense'. Insinuating that he couldnt care less about defense. MDA also said when asked to commit more to defense he wont. Yet you continue to fight this?

    I know I've said this to you often, but seriously. YOU"RE AN F ING IDIOT.

  7. #187
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Who have you been beating up on?? You've looked like a fool since you started posting here.. You've had zero impact on the forum only since all along.

    I know you'd be an ignoramoid after your first couple of posts when I said to you that, "You're off to a bad start on the forum".

    Well you've done nothing but confirm my early suspicions.

    You're one of the most biased, unknowledgeable, arrogant posters on here and you've failed horribly as you continue to try and indict Mike D.
    I'm biased? How exactly? I gave MDA much props for his offensive coaching ability. In this thread as a matter of fact.

  8. #188
    Superstar WrongIslander's Avatar
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    So our stats in D are improving, we've showed against Miami that our D can be the difference to win a game when pushed and MDA can take no credit for this whatsoever?

    Does it occur that the reason we arn't higher in the defensive scale isn't just down to the fact MDA can't teach D (rubbish) but that we don't have players as good as those we are trying to stop? i

    For me MDA's account in NY started THIS season, anything before was just pissing in the wind. He had a group of mercenaries who had no intention of giving their best and even less of forming any meaningful team. Now he has players that are fighting for their place, working as a team and playing meaningful basketball.

    We're doing about as well as could be expected realistically with what we have and yet there are calls for MDA's head before the end of a season when he could lead us back to the playoffs? Serious people have a word with yourselves!

    There may well be a time to sack MDA but this is certainly NOT it.

    As for Stat's comments if he believed it why would he go back to MDA? Memory loss? Or maybe he went back a better player, a better man and a leader who could own up to his own faults and better himself by learning from them?

  9. #189
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StatVP
    No offense but it doesn't seem like you are fully understanding the purpose of the Points Per Possession Rating stat (D Rating) to begin with. The way we play offensively has zero to do with where we rank in defensive rating. Points per possession rating measures how much scoring you allow per possession, regardless if you're playing high pace or not it is an aggregate of multiple statistical categories, and averages them out over 100 possessions to reach a final number that attempts to demonstrate defensive ranking. In short, what this means is that whether you're playing slow pace or not, the number of possessions you allow over the course of the game has no bearing. Basically it adjusts for the pace at which you play & attempts to demonstrate which teams are actually playing the best defense in the NBA per possession. If you'd like an explanation of this in real world terms you can reference the following example which outlines how OFFENSIVE points per possession rating adjusts for pace:



    Back to my point, as I pointed out earlier, when you're allowing more field goals than you're making it means you're not Ding up consistently, plain & simple. Before you accuse others of not seeing the forest through the trees it might help to have an intelligent discussion if you wouldn't just ignore all of the points, facts, statistics and evidence being presented to you in this thread. I'm not interested in getting into a mudslinging battle with anyone that's not what I'm here for, I'm here to talk basketball.
    So your here to talk basketball w out getting all of the info you need to make a relevant point? Okay..

    No, dude I understand points per 100 possessions perfectly. That fact the stat adjusts for pace is the exact reason its relevant to our team due to how we play.

    The application is solid dude. No need for the explanations. I've been up on the statistic for a while. Glad to have facilitated some learning on your part.

  10. #190
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    Originally Posted by WrongIslander
    Does it occur that the reason we arn't higher in the defensive scale isn't just down to the fact MDA can't teach D (rubbish) but that we don't have players as good as those we are trying to stop?
    Coach D had a couple of All-NBA Defensive team players in Phoenix in Marion & Raja Bell along with other defensive minded players like Leandro Barbosa, Stephen Hunter, Kurt Thomas & Boris Diaw, not to mention he had the MVP of the league in Nash, another superstar in STAT & another up & coming young star in Joe Johnson, but his teams were never ranked among the top teams in defensive rating.

  11. #191
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    That fact the stat adjusts for pace is the exact reason its relevant to our team due to how we play.
    You're not making sense. The stat itself is pre-adjusted for pace, which means it takes into account how a team plays. The fact that D'Antoni's teams have never ranked among the top teams in the NBA in Defensive rating means that his teams aren't playing great defense, plain & simple. I'm not sure why you continue to contest this fact if you claim you have a good understanding of what that stat means.

  12. #192
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    You leave out one very important fact. With the KNICKS HIS TEAMS HAVE BEEN IN THE BOTTOM 3rd in defensive rating since he got here. Thats not average but BELOW AVERAGE.

    How you guys can continue to fight this unwinnable fight really speaks for your persistence, but not much about your intelligence.

    The STATS throughout his coaching career bear out MDA's lack of focus on defense. MDA said himself that "the team that scores the most points play the best defense'. Insinuating that he couldnt care less about defense. MDA also said when asked to commit more to defense he wont. Yet you continue to fight this?

    I know I've said this to you often, but seriously. YOU"RE AN F ING IDIOT.
    That is a tongue and cheek comment you obtuse moron..

    The team is in early stages of developing. Why do you continue to over look that?? We start two rookies. What the hell do you want?

    Come next season you watch he'll have us around 13- 17 in the league in defensive points per 100 possessions. Any higher would be icing.

    And we've made progress which has helped us to be winning team this year. But you can't acknowledge that.. I just have accept that you can't acknowledge things that are outside your line of thinking.

  13. #193
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StatVP
    You're not making sense. The stat itself is pre-adjusted for pace, which means it takes into account how a team plays. The fact that D'Antoni's teams have never ranked among the top teams in the NBA in Defensive rating means that his teams aren't playing great defense, plain & simple. I'm not sure why you continue to contest this fact if you claim you have a good understanding of what that stat means.

    You're not understanding what I'm arguing. I'm not saying the way we play offense has anything to do w our d-rating. The way we play offense, ie our fg%, ft% 3pt% etc is relative to our O-rating. But if you combine how we end up d-rating wise w how we play offensively - high scoring high pace- you have an extremely venerable style of play. Thas what I mean my dude. Clear yet?
    Last edited by ronoranina; Feb 20, 2011 at 23:23.

  14. #194
    Superstar WrongIslander's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StatVP
    Coach D had a couple of All-NBA Defensive team players in Phoenix in Marion & Raja Bell along with other defensive minded players like Leandro Barbosa, Stephen Hunter, Kurt Thomas & Boris Diaw, not to mention he had the MVP of the league in Nash, another superstar in STAT & another up & coming young star in Joe Johnson, but his teams were never ranked among the top teams in defensive rating.
    Where were they ranked in D and O?

    Defense wins championships sure, but usually offensive minded teams throughout the year that then can play D when they need to in the playoffs, not just the best defensive team all year.

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    You're not understanding what I'm arguing. I'm not saying the way we play offense has anything to do w our d-rating. The way we play offense, ie our fg%, ft% 3pt% etc is relative to our O-rating. But if you combine how we end up d-rating wise w how we play offensively - high scoring high pace- you have an extremely venerable style of play. Thas what I mean my dude. Clear yet?
    I referenced pace which takes into account everything that you're talking about, offensively & defensively. The way we play offense dictates more possessions for our opponents as a natural byproduct, & defensive rating stat takes this into account as well. I understand what you're trying to argue here but my point is that the stat you are referencing already accounts for pace so the fact that MDA likes to play an uptempo has no bearing on this discussion.

    Look I'm not arguing that MDA doesn't know how to coach the game of basketball don't misunderstand my arguments here, I happen to think he's an excellent coach. What I'd like to see is this team getting into the habit of showing more of an emphasis on playing defense because we won't be able to play the same style of basketball we play in the regular season once the postseason rolls around for 48 minutes. The game changes & the pace slows exponentially in crunchtime of playoff games. This team needs to get into the habit of playing defense on every single possession until it becomes second nature. The onus lies on every single player on the roster ALONG with the head coach to practice what they preach. They can't keep talking about stepping up their effort defensively, talk is cheap. Like my sig says dude, Git 'Er Dun!

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