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Thread: OFFICIAL: ANTI-D'Antoni Thread

  1. #91
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    I stopped reading after this sentence,the knicks had a worse team than what we have now and we were stuck with players with huge egos.not to mention larry brown sits any player that he doesn't like.
    I'm not sure what you're responding to. If you think I was being serious, you should read this:

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    Oh, so Larry Brown suffered b/c we had a low talent level ("worse team" - AmareForPrez) and a bunch of ****ty personalities ("huge ego" - AmareForPrez)? So you are saying at least on some level LB suffered here because of PLAYERS? So PLAYERS matter in the success of a team? Well, thank you for agreeing with me.

  2. #92
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    Jjust goes to show the inconsistency of the Bucks. The point differential shows true defensive teams, and what it takes to win. The smaller the point differential the lack of consistency and thus you get yourself a bad defensive team.

    The ppg allows you to check the pace, but the pointt differential gives you abetter overall idea of how good the team's defense acually is. When you take into account the point differentia of the Knicks, compare it to the elite teams who actually play defense. You will notice a trend: consistentcy. Then you get quotes with what Amar'e said... something I've been telling you all along... MDA's system doesn't promote defense, and you still deny how horrible of a defensive team we are, then there is no helping you.

    A winning record and a close point differential = either lack of defense or offense. Because we score so much you know it is lack of defense.
    So you have to factor in pace! Am I crazy, why wouldn't you just use a stat that DOES factor in pace by it's nature.

    And you are giving a bastardized reading to Amare's quote. HE said the team isn't playing with energy at the defensive end, you read that as MDA's system does not promote defense...

    I don't think we are a good defensive team I never said we did, but I believe our players top to bottom for the most part are bad defensive players...

  3. #93
    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    I'm not sure what you're responding to. If you think I was being serious, you should read this:

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Oh, so Larry Brown suffered b/c we had a low talent level ("worse team" - AmareForPrez) and a bunch of ****ty personalities ("huge ego" - AmareForPrez)? So you are saying at least on some level LB suffered here because of PLAYERS? So PLAYERS matter in the success of a team? Well, thank you for agreeing with me.
    We have the good players now now we just need the defensive minded coach.

  4. #94
    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    I believe our players top to bottom for the most part are bad defensive players...
    Thats because D'antoni doesn't teach defense.

  5. #95
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Kblack,

    As I've said before, you can seperate the real heads from the fake by what you read/hear from them. All of the BS over-emphasis on coaching shows they don't really know the game of basketball.

    I had never read any of those quotes you posted on the illogical perception people tend to hold on coaching. But if you've digested enough basketball and use logic, it becomes easy to make the connection between winning and great playerz over winning and great coaching..

    Most of the coaches we consider to be great have had some of most legendary players available, or an extremely balanced, deep team of really good ones. How people continue to not make this connection is baffling to me.

    People: STOP OVERVALUING WHAT THESE COACHES CAN DO FOR TEAMS. THEY ALL NEED GREAT PLAYERZ TO WIN A CHIP..

  6. #96
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Again, you bring nothing new or interesting beyond your opinion, which we can debate in circles over and over. Nothing you said convinced me to change my opinion.

    One thing I will address is the following, as I have already addressed and debunked all your points, and rehashing them would send us in circles.

    By the way, an arbitrator who read your statement that you don't care about gaining the full spectrum of knowledge would take 15 seconds to find in my favor, you admit yourself you do not have, or care to have, all available information...



    So most sports buffs would say that coaching in sports is more important than the players? Is that what you are saying?

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Now, since you admit you won't read, or care to read, to expand your mind and your knowledge, proof positive alone that an arbitrator looking at the facts would think you are shortsighted and are CHOOSING to use less facts and details, a fundamental flaw in argument and Lesson 1 of Law School, I will take some quotes out for you:
    No where will you find that I said a COACH is more IMPORTANT than its PLAYERS. You're trying to spin the argument to your advantage. As usual. My contention is that a team in just about any sport takes on the image of its coach and its coaches philosophies. All anyone is trying to explain to you is that if MDA had a defensive philosophy you'd see it resonate in his teams play. If MDA taught, drilled, and preached defense we would be a better defensive team

    Take a look at these links. Ones a NBA coaching lineage article, the other is about coach himself.

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    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    I the one about MDA I extracted these DIRECT QUOTES for you:

    “People call it small ball, and that pisses me off. It’s skill ball, plain and simple. I’d start two 7-footers if they could run and shoot. But better five midgets than stiffs who can’t push it, and I’ll live with how many we give up."

    "As we said in Phoenix, the team with the most points is the one that played the best defense.”

    MDA could couldnt care less about defense. Also, the first quote explains why AR and Moz dont get burn. They cant shoot well enough.

    Kinda funny finding this article. It goes against everything you're preaching about your beloved coach. Directly from the coach himself.


    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    This all provides support for my opinion that Coaching is overvalued...it is fools gold and changing the coach is just easier than changing the personnel.
    Yea it does. To bad thats not the argument on the table...
    Last edited by Clyde & The Pearl; Feb 20, 2011 at 11:03.

  7. #97
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    Thats because D'antoni doesn't teach defense.
    Exactly. No one said the MDA is more important, just that he doesnt teach defense. Black is losing the argument by arguing invalid points...

  8. #98
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    No where will you find that I said a COACH is more IMPORTANT than its PLAYERS. You're trying to spin the argument to your advantage. As usual. My contention is that a team in just about any sport takes on the image of its coach and its coaches philosophies. All anyone is trying to explain to you is that if MDA had a defensive philosophy you'd see it resonate in his teams play. If MDA taught, drilled, and preached defense we would be a better defensive team

    Take a look at these links. Ones a NBA coaching lineage article, the other is about coach himself.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    I the one about MDA I extracted these DIRECT QUOTES for you:

    “People call it small ball, and that pisses me off. It’s skill ball, plain and simple. I’d start two 7-footers if they could run and shoot. But better five midgets than stiffs who can’t push it, and I’ll live with how many we give up."

    "As we said in Phoenix, the team with the most points is the one that played the best defense.”

    MDA could couldnt care less about defense. Also, the first quote explains why AR and Moz dont get burn. They cant shot well enough.

    Kinda funny finding this article. It goes against everything you're preaching about your beloved coach. Directly from the coach himself.


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    This all provides support for my opinion that Coaching is overvalued...it is fools gold and changing the coach is just easier than changing the personnel.

    Yea it does. To bad thats not the argument on the table...
    Clydeandthepizearl,

    Kblack's point about the importance of coaching is not exactly part if this argument, but it goes to a larger, overarching theme re: flawed perceptions about coaching in general.

    He's basically highlighting what you and others do after almost every game and why its retarded. You see, it fits. Or did you not make that connection either?

  9. #99
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    So you have to factor in pace! Am I crazy, why wouldn't you just use a stat that DOES factor in pace by it's nature.

    And you are giving a bastardized reading to Amare's quote. HE said the team isn't playing with energy at the defensive end, you read that as MDA's system does not promote defense...

    I don't think we are a good defensive team I never said we did, but I believe our players top to bottom for the most part are bad defensive players...
    To read that quote and say it has nothing to do with a system that is known for putting more emphasis on the offensive end and running the players ragged is wishful thinking my friend.

    Look at the point differential stats, ppg, and number of wins. Large point differentials mean good defense. Low point differential mean crappy defense and ppg helps give pace.Spurs and Miami lead the list. Spurs score more and. Run a quicker paced set. But their defense is also amazing. It puts them at the top of the NBA and an elite team. Miami is the same way. Boston, LA, Nd Celts are not far behind.

    Wins tend to follow the point differential, but they don't have to. You could win every game with a plus 1 point differential, but it shows you there are serious flaws in your system. Practically this would never happen because flaws lead to losses but you get my point.

  10. #100
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Clydeandthepizearl,

    Kblack's point about the importance of coaching is not exactly part if this argument, but it goes to a larger, overarching theme re: flawed perceptions about coaching in general.

    He's basically highlighting what you and others do after almost every game and why its retarded. You see, it fits. Or did you not make that connection either?
    What did Black lawyer up? You must be his mouth piece. Explain to me how we went from what I posted first in this thread, which was this:
    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->1) Teams getting to the rim repeatedly with no defensive resistance
    2) I've seen us take 5 charges all year (MAYBE) Not man on man charges but charges where someone steps in front of someone heading to the basket and takes one for the team.
    3) A lack of defensive philosophy
    4) A total lack of effort on defense most games
    5) Absolutely no defensive adjustments in game (zones, half court traps) unless we're down a bunch at which point we'll press full court
    6) A blatant disregard for utilizing our bigs, because of this we get HAMMERED in the paint
    7) A coach that doesn't utilize some of his reserve players strengths
    8) A coach that will bench you if you're offensively challenged and cant play his system
    9) Because of his system he has to over use certain players in order for it to run at an optimum level.


    I'm sure I'm missing some things. I'll add to them if necessary. Would you like to dispute anything that I'm seeing?

    I dont hate MDA. I'd love to hire another head coach and have him as an offensive consultant if that means anything..
    .


    To him insinuating that I said a coach is more important than players, which is reprinted here:

    So most sports buffs would say that coaching in sports is more important than the players? Is that what you are saying?

    Which I never even mentioned. Those articles I posted are definite proof of exactly what I'm trying to convey to you all about MDA and his defensive philosophy as well as his use of bigs. From MDA's mouth himself.

    I guess this is the point where I gloat and say


    GAME, SET and MATCH!!!

  11. #101
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    Just one more interesting tidbit "FROM THE COACHES MOUTH".

    “When bad things happen and naysayers pipe up and management ‘suggests’ that you post up more and
    commit more to defense
    , that’s when I climb up on the rooftop and say, No, bull****, I won’t change,” he says. “I am who I am, and I’ll be that guy till they ship me back to Italy."

  12. #102
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    What did Black lawyer up? You must be his mouth piece. Explain to me how we went from what I posted first in this thread, which was this:
    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->1) Teams getting to the rim repeatedly with no defensive resistance
    2) I've seen us take 5 charges all year (MAYBE) Not man on man charges but charges where someone steps in front of someone heading to the basket and takes one for the team.
    3) A lack of defensive philosophy
    4) A total lack of effort on defense most games
    5) Absolutely no defensive adjustments in game (zones, half court traps) unless we're down a bunch at which point we'll press full court
    6) A blatant disregard for utilizing our bigs, because of this we get HAMMERED in the paint
    7) A coach that doesn't utilize some of his reserve players strengths
    8) A coach that will bench you if you're offensively challenged and cant play his system
    9) Because of his system he has to over use certain players in order for it to run at an optimum level.


    I'm sure I'm missing some things. I'll add to them if necessary. Would you like to dispute anything that I'm seeing?

    I dont hate MDA. I'd love to hire another head coach and have him as an offensive consultant if that means anything..
    .


    To him insinuating that I said a coach is more important than players, which is reprinted here:

    So most sports buffs would say that coaching in sports is more important than the players? Is that what you are saying?

    Which I never even mentioned. Those articles I posted are definite proof of exactly what I'm trying to convey to you all about MDA and his defensive philosophy as well as his use of bigs. From MDA's mouth himself.

    I guess this is the point where I gloat and say


    GAME, SET and MATCH!!!
    No, you appeared to not understand why he introduced the larger argument on flawed perceptions of coaching and how you contribute to/ perpetuate it. The above post further shows the disconnect you have goin on.

    You didn't make the connection so I was just trying to help you understand where Kblack was going. Did I touch a nerve? I didn't mean to seem to pile on, but at times its like the blind leading the blind around here and I can't help but make the easy, eye opening observation when it's so right there to be made.

  13. #103
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Just one more interesting tidbit "FROM THE COACHES MOUTH".

    “When bad things happen and naysayers pipe up and management ‘suggests’ that you post up more and
    commit more to defense
    , that’s when I climb up on the rooftop and say, No, bull****, I won’t change,” he says. “I am who I am, and I’ll be that guy till they ship me back to Italy."
    And that's fine. My point is and has always been that he doesn't have to change. If coach gets good enough playerz that fit in to this system he can win. If you look at our team as it's currently contructed, you can hardly come away saying/ thinking he has everything he needs. Unless you simply can't evaluate talent.

  14. #104
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    No, you appeared to not understand why he introduced the larger argument on flawed perceptions of coaching and how you contribute to/ perpetuate it. The above post further shows the disconnect you have goin on.

    You didn't make the connection so I was just trying to help you understand where Kblack was going. Did I touch a nerve? I didn't mean to seem to pile on, but at times its like the blind leading the blind around here and I can't help but make the easy, eye opening observation when it's so right there to be made.
    I understood exactly. Spin. His useless points about MDA and defense werent working. Heck, MDA and defense shouldnt even be mentioned in the same thread. Why try to change the topic now? A coach being more important than NBA players is not even a debatable topic. High school possibly, even less so in college.

    Pile on? If you're siding with Black on this your the one getting chitted on just like he is.

    So what's your impression about the quotes I provided from MDA?

  15. #105
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    And that's fine. My point is and has always been that he doesn't have to change. If coach gets good enough playerz that fit in to this system he can win. If you look at our team as it's currently contructed, you can hardly come away saying/ thinking he has everything he needs. Unless you simply can't evaluate talent.
    He'll NEVER have everything he needs player wise. Not many coaches do. Even perennial championship winning teams dont have everything they desire. Know what they do have? Flexability. Versatility. MDA is telling you right here that he is totally inflexible and non versatile.

    But hey you're happy with this so whats the biggee...

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