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Thread: Don't blame Carmelo. BLAME DOLAN (and I-THOMAS)!!!

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    Veteran mafra's Avatar
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    Default Don't blame Carmelo. BLAME DOLAN (and I-THOMAS)!!!

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    Thomas’ influence grows within Knicks


    LOS ANGELES – The thin veil of secrecy has torn away now, the pretenses gone and Isiah Thomas has left the shadows and moved into the light again. Once more, he is the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]’ top basketball executive.

    Thomas is driving everything through owner James Dolan – the trade for [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ], the departure of Donnie Walsh and perhaps even the eventual hiring of the New York Knicks’ next president and general manager, multiple league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

    “Isiah is calling the shots for New York,” said one front-office executive with knowledge of the Anthony trade talks. “It’s a disgrace. Donnie should walk.”

    Thomas wouldn’t blink. After all, that’s his plan: He wants Walsh to leave out of sheer frustration because of Thomas’ meddling, or because Dolan doesn’t pick up the option on his contract in April. For a franchise with a history of inexplicable dysfunction, even this is an episode for the Madison Square Garden time capsule.


    Dolan has overruled Walsh in these trade talks and undermined his authority. Walsh has never wanted to give away [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]for an aging [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and throw [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] into the package, too. This is all Isiah, all his influence.


    Thomas doesn’t believe Dolan is inclined to give him his job back, but it almost doesn’t matter anymore. In a moment of truth for this Knicks franchise, in the biggest trade they’ve tried to make in years, Isiah Thomas, the coach of Florida International University, has emerged as the de facto GM.

    Eventually, Anthony will likely end up with the Knicks, and Thomas plans to take full credit with Dolan for delivering him. He’s worn out Dolan with the idea that Walsh is too old to recruit the biggest stars to New York, that he can’t connect with them. This is complete nonsense. What sells New York isn’t the GM, but cap space, the Garden and a magnificent teammate and leader like [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. Thomas is forever selling revisionist history and out-and-out lies to an audience of one: Dolan.

    For months, Thomas has privately insisted that Walsh was done with the Knicks this spring. His option must be exercised by April 30 and that still hasn’t happened. Thomas believes it’s never happening, and believes he can install a puppet regime through Dolan to replace Walsh. This way he can eliminate the middleman. “He wants his own guy in that office, someone he can have some control over,” a league source said.

    Thomas had a plan to run the Knicks again, and it failed a year ago: When Dolan pushed Walsh to bring back the disgraced executive as the Knicks general manager, Walsh reacted with the threat of resignation. This was pure lunacy, a plan hatched out of the incompetence of Dolan, out of the deviousness of Thomas.


    The NBA rejected a compromise to let Thomas serve as a Knicks consultant and the coach of FIU. Dolan insisted he would keep conferring with Thomas, and he told the truth. Only now, he listens more to Thomas than he does Walsh.

    Thomas has pushed Dolan to let Walsh’s contract expire on June 30 and hire a new executive to run the Knicks. Thomas plans to furnish Dolan with candidates, a source said. He thinks he can get a candidate hired from the outside, but there will be a brawl inside before that happens.

    The fight for power could come between Thomas and William Wesley – Worldwide Wes. He’s an agent for CAA, the powerbroker agency connected as a rep of star players, executives and coaches. He pushed for Mark Warkentien’s hiring as a high-level consultant to Walsh, has strong ties to Knicks assistant GM [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and he’s one of the main reps for Anthony and 2012 free agent [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. It’s against NBA rules to rep players and coaches, but commissioner David Stern picks and chooses the rules he enforces. He lets Worldwide Wes travel with his Olympic teams, gain access to stars, steal them away and broker them to the commissioner’s market franchises.

    Stern ought to be ashamed of himself for letting this happen to Walsh. He pushed Dolan and Walsh together three years ago to clean up Thomas’ toxic mess, to restore a measure of honor and dignity to the Garden. Walsh did the job, and now Dolan is one more owner with so little respect for the commissioner and his franchise’s fans that he’s allowed Thomas to emerge as a Knicks powerbroker again.


    The front office is still stocked with Thomas loyalists, including Glen Grunwald and Rodney Heard. Heard was responsible for the illegal workouts under Thomas’ regime, but Walsh has never been allowed to fire him because of Thomas’ relationship with him. Heard, an East Coast scouting director, had a chance to leave for an assistant GM’s job with the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] over the summer, but stayed because, as he privately told friends in the league, “Isiah is coming back.”

    Only, Isiah Thomas never truly left the New York Knicks. From across the country on All-Star weekend, on a South Florida college campus, Thomas keeps pushing the big trade for the big [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] star. Thomas has always bragged to Dolan about how close he is with ’Melo and how he’s sold the star on a future with the Knicks. It’s pure nonsense and pure gold for Thomas.


    Walsh wanted to see the Knicks back into the playoffs, and this is the year it happens. They aren’t chasing a championship, but they’ve returned to respectability and are in contention. Walsh had a smart, shrewd and patient plan to get Anthony. There were limits to the price to be paid for ’Melo, and Dolan has let Thomas exceed them in these contract talks. He’s humiliated Walsh, who, sources said, could still return to the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] as president should Larry Bird retire this summer.

    Walsh’s peers are embarrassed for him, but no one is too surprised. James Dolan has forever lusted for Thomas, and no level of shame, no humiliation, no embarrassment can keep them apart. The Knicks are giving up far too much for Anthony, and that doesn’t end with the players in the proposed package. Dolan sold this franchise’s soul a long time ago, and now that old, failed partnership is promising a second act that comes straight out of hell.

    Carmelo Anthony could be on the way to New York, Donnie Walsh could be on the way out, and one thing has never been so certain: Isiah Thomas has big, big ideas for the future of the franchise.

    Adrian Wojnarowski is the NBA columnist for Yahoo! Sports.
    Last edited by mafra; Feb 20, 2011 at 10:29.

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    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    The talk about Thomas makes me sick to my stomach, but I have a completely separate issue with the article. At the end it says "The Knicks are giving up far too much for Anthony, and that doesn’t end with the players in the proposed package. Dolan sold this franchise’s soul a long time ago, and now that old, failed partnership is promising a second act that comes straight out of hell." The entire quote seems to be more for effect than anything, but the part in bold...I keep hearing it and I don't know what it means. I can understand if we were giving up players that we would be keeping long term...but that's not the case. Felton, Gallo, Chandler, Curry, 1st round pick for Randolph? Which one of those players do people see on the roster when the 2012 season starts in Oct. 2012? Where is the "too much?"

    Everytime I see someone say that we're giving up way to much, but then fail to explain how we would keep Felton and Gallo in 2012...I can't help but think that they're being reactionary and trying to just start something (be it in the media or on the forums.)

    I keep asking...how are we supposed to get someone in 2012 to complete our core-3, and keep Felton and Gallo? If they have to leave eventually...does it matter whether it's the winter of 2011 or 2012? It's entirely possible that I'm missing something....but I don't think I am.

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    The Daily News ran a couple of similar articles by Lupica and Isola. Isiah is a bad dream that won't go away.

    I don't know how much of the stuff written is true but I do know that Walsh deserves a contract extension for the job he's done.

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    Veteran mafra's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    The talk about Thomas makes me sick to my stomach, but I have a completely separate issue with the article. At the end it says "The Knicks are giving up far too much for Anthony, and that doesn’t end with the players in the proposed package. Dolan sold this franchise’s soul a long time ago, and now that old, failed partnership is promising a second act that comes straight out of hell." The entire quote seems to be more for effect than anything, but the part in bold...I keep hearing it and I don't know what it means. I can understand if we were giving up players that we would be keeping long term...but that's not the case. Felton, Gallo, Chandler, Curry, 1st round pick for Randolph? Which one of those players do people see on the roster when the 2012 season starts in Oct. 2012? Where is the "too much?"

    Everytime I see someone say that we're giving up way to much, but then fail to explain how we would keep Felton and Gallo in 2012...I can't help but think that they're being reactionary and trying to just start something (be it in the media or on the forums.)

    I keep asking...how are we supposed to get someone in 2012 to complete our core-3, and keep Felton and Gallo? If they have to leave eventually...does it matter whether it's the winter of 2011 or 2012? It's entirely possible that I'm missing something....but I don't think I am.
    I concur. Having Billups over Felton will be a good thing in the playoffs this year. THEN, NY has option to let CB walk (buy him out) or keep him for 2011-2012 season. Them like RF, he's off the books. No matter what we do at PG, the goal is to lure Deron or Paul for the 2012-2013 season.

    NO WAY NY keeps Chandler, unless he agreed to a 20 mil deal or something. That isn't happening. He wants 30-40 mil.

    Who cares about Curry.

    The only issue is assets. Anthony Randolph, Danillo Gallinari, Landry Fields and even T-Mozgov. These are our 4 most attratcive assets. Young, cheap with potential. Walsh draws the line at 2, and he prefers to only part with 1.

    Walsh sees no reason to give up more than Chandler and Randolph, when he feels he could just wait and sign Carmelo. However, to ensure he doesn't miss out and lose Carmelo, he's willing to toss in either Fields or Gallo.

    Losing Randolph stinks, but Dantoni never plays him.

    Trading Gallo or Fields, along with Chandler is steep... but doable. After all, in terms of the 2012 roster... The only player we would lose who would be here next year anyway is that player (Fields or Gallo).

    Walsh does not want to swap Felton for Billups, take back salary AND give up Fields or Gallo along with Chandler. This is beyond what he's willing to pay for. I personally see no difference between Billups and Felton, if we plan on gettting a new PG in 2012. BUt maybe this is too steep b/c e should be able to sign Anthony in a few months anway.

    Clearly, IT will do anything. Take credit if it works, blame Walsh if it doesn't. The good news: If this trade does happen, we don't have much more to trade, so IT will find it difficult to trade for bad contracts this summer. That will have to wait one more year.

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    is the Bo$$ Toons's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    The talk about Thomas makes me sick to my stomach, but I have a completely separate issue with the article. At the end it says "The Knicks are giving up far too much for Anthony, and that doesn’t end with the players in the proposed package. Dolan sold this franchise’s soul a long time ago, and now that old, failed partnership is promising a second act that comes straight out of hell." The entire quote seems to be more for effect than anything, but the part in bold...I keep hearing it and I don't know what it means. I can understand if we were giving up players that we would be keeping long term...but that's not the case. Felton, Gallo, Chandler, Curry, 1st round pick for Randolph? Which one of those players do people see on the roster when the 2012 season starts in Oct. 2012? Where is the "too much?"

    Everytime I see someone say that we're giving up way to much, but then fail to explain how we would keep Felton and Gallo in 2012...I can't help but think that they're being reactionary and trying to just start something (be it in the media or on the forums.)

    I keep asking...how are we supposed to get someone in 2012 to complete our core-3, and keep Felton and Gallo? If they have to leave eventually...does it matter whether it's the winter of 2011 or 2012? It's entirely possible that I'm missing something....but I don't think I am.
    Thank god for isiah
    if he gets melo here for 2 sf's (who either we cant pay or they wont get minutes) we swap RF for Billups (which is the only negative), curry and randolph, then he WILL be the savior of NYC.

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    Wow.

    Wow.

    THIS ISNT A SIMPLE TRADE AS IT IS A COMPLEX NEGOTIATION BASED ON LEVERAGE, EMOTION, IMAGE, WILL-POWER.

    Wow.

    It's not just "do we get Melo", "what do we get him for", thinking with static hindsight when the focus needs to be on the fluidity of the present, It's how you play the game that predicates the ultimate worth, respectability, and power of your franchise. And true degrees of success in trades like this, pulling in Melo (and signings, draftings).

    To have Isiah and Dolan's stink infiltrating MSG again...

    We are just being bent over right now. And good NYK basketball people may likely get backdoored by disagraceful shams.

    But now even "seasoned fans" hailing it with praise, and rose colored glasses....

    Maybe NYK so deserve the Isiah-Dolan tag team for perpetuity.
    Last edited by iSaYughh; Feb 20, 2011 at 11:25.

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    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    I honestly have no idea of how much players we're going to give up for Melo but i have trust in Donnie Walsh.

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    Adios Mios..... :facepalm:

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    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    No, Wojo, Barkley and other sane people who r looking at this thing objectively are right: We're giving up too much. You don't do what we're doing when you can get Melo in FA. And the reason you keep assets when you can is to maintain flexibility. Maybe in the long run we can't afford certain playerz, but why throw them away now unnecessarily when they can be used to get something viable later- like a pick.

    I said this would happen guys. Two things are working against us. 1. All of the developments re: Melo point to one thing. He really fears the new CBA.. I really can't blame him either. Where I really start to trip is when it affects my team and what we have to give up to get him. But I honestly feel he's conflicted. He's torn by the uncertainty of the new CBA and waiting to play for a real winner, which is what we'd have if we signed as a FA. I honestly feel in the end he'd wait. And 2. We have this cancer from the inside working against us, undermining Walsh, who has the right approach-- YOU MAINTAIN YOUR ASSETS IF YOU CAN (and we can, Melo will be FA) TO MAINTAIN FLEXIBILITY. The Melodrama continues..

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    Originally Posted by Toons
    Thank god for isiah
    if he gets melo here for 2 sf's (who either we cant pay or they wont get minutes) we swap RF for Billups (which is the only negative), curry and randolph, then he WILL be the savior of NYC.
    We all agree that Carmelo is a wanted man in NY.
    Nobody doubts that we want him here.

    Great GM's are not defined solely on the players they bring in but what the cost is to get the.

    Just maybe if Walsh was handling this we would not have to give up Gallo or Fields. Maybe Mozgov would not even be mentioned.

    Walsh is a seasoned negotiator that will be the first to admit he made a mistake with the Houston deal last year.

    I am not saying not to get rid of Fields or Gallo but I am saying if Walsh felt he could hold on to both then Dolan should not be involved.


    Lets not worry about Gallo's minutes. Instead I am sure Gallo could be traded for a quality bigman.

    Getting the deal done is one thing, Getting the deal done by holding onto key assets is another.....

    Isiah is a moron and there is not another GM who would not agree.....

    Isiah will always pay more because his EGO and DOLAN'S EGO does not allow them to negotiate with patience.....

    Dude wake up and never negotiate in fear or praise those who do.

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    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    No, Wojo, Barkley and other sane people who r looking at this thing objectively are right: We're giving up too much. You don't do what we're doing when you can get Melo in FA. And the reason you keep assets when you can is to maintain flexibility. Maybe in the long run we can't afford certain playerz, but why throw them away now unnecessarily when they can be used to get something viable later- like a pick.

    I said this would happen guys. Two things are working against us. 1. All of the developments re: Melo point to one thing. He really fears the new CBA.. I really can't blame him either. Where I really start to trip is when it affects my team and what we have to give up to get him. But I honestly feel he's conflicted. He's torn by the uncertainty of the new CBA and waiting to play for a real winner, which is what we'd have if we signed as a FA. I honestly feel in the end he'd wait. And 2. We have this cancer from the inside working against us, undermining Walsh, who has the right approach-- YOU MAINTAIN YOUR ASSETS IF YOU CAN (and we can, Melo will be FA) TO MAINTAIN FLEXIBILITY. The Melodrama continues..
    Exactly. If we were working under this same CBA this summer Melo would already be a Knick with us giving up the bare minimum. Denver is holding this over his had like a guillotine.

    Does anyone know how this thing works if Melo ends up with Denver after the agreement runs out? I mean say there is no CBA and we get to September can he still sign the deal? Can he be traded? Can he exercise his option for next year? Or does he have to wait for the new deal to be signed before he can make a decision?

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    Another thing Melo could probably do if not traded. Is exercise his option without signing the extension. I guess. Then we'd have to go through another year of Melo drama...

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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Another thing Melo could probably do if not traded. Is exercise his option without signing the extension. I guess. Then we'd have to go through another year of Melo drama...
    That Def Aint happening this is it this weekend. he wants it out of the way as much as everyone else.

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    Knicks say Thomas is not involved.

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    Feb 20, 2011, 2:24 PM EST

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    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] about Isiah Thomas’ influence in efforts to bring [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] to the Knicks.
    The specter of a return of Thomas — just after the team spent two years climbing out of a hole Thomas dug for the organization — was enough to push the Knicks to release a rare joint statement to the media from owner James Dolan, President Donnie Walsh and coach Mike D’Antoni (via the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] of the New York Times).
    “We want to make it abundantly clear that we have been in constant communication throughout this process and the three of us are in complete agreement with everything that we are currently working on.
    “Together, we will do what is best for the long-term success of the franchise… we want to make it clear that no one from outside our organization has been involved in this process in any way.”
    That is a clear reference to Isiah Thomas.
    And nobody believes this.
    In part because when asked by ESPNNewYork Saturday night Thomas did not deny his involvement. Then there is the fact Dolan tried desperately to hire Thomas over the summer and would have if the league had not killed the idea. Or there’s the fact that everyone around the organization says Thomas is involved. Or the phrasing “not involved in the process” is semantics (he could consult with Dolan but not talk to the Nuggets, therefore technically not be part of the actual process, for example).
    This entire thing has been bizarre. But a return of Isiah to the organization in any capacity has to freak out Knicks fans.


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    When your owner is Jim Dolan nothing is surprising. And when you also consider how much the sports media loves to stir up drama in this town, nothing surprises you what you read whether there's an ounce of truth to it or not. I think in the end, you guys will see who's really in charge once this Melo situation gets settled. If Donnie Walsh stays on as our President after this year then I think it will tell the story, because there's no way in hell I think he'd stick around if he knew Isiah was really running things behind the scenes.

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