I don't want CP3 or Howard during 2012's offseason...

Sons of Thunder · Mar 3, 2011

STAT1 said:
Do you think the Miami Heat were concerned about what would happen if D Wade or Lebron got hurt & the other were only left with Bosh, Miller & a bunch of scrubs? I don't. Injuries can happen to anyone, you don't make moves or not make them out of concern that a player might get hurt unless he's had a history of being injured in the past. Making the Antonio McKnee trade for example was the worst trade in Knicks' history because we already knew he was a huge injury risk. Dwight Howard is 1 of the most durable players in the game for crying out loud he's only missed 3 games in his entire 7 yr career, not making a play for him because you're afraid he might get injured is sorta like not signing Albert Pujols to a longterm contract because you're scared he might go on the DL. You can't run a professional sports franchise with that kind of thinking.

But at the same time you do need to plan for contingencies and can't put all your eggs in one basket. Hell, even if they never got injured, our three superstars won't be able to play 40 minutes every game, all season long and throughout the playoffs. We need supporting pieces around them to actually be relevant (ie, not exhausted) come playoff time .

If we could somehow work some magic and have cap space for said supporting pieces while signing another big name, then that'd be great. But I don't know if it's worth banking everything on that 3rd big name and not having enough left over to cover our own backs.

That being said, CP3 did look thoroughly depressed today. He's friends with Melo and Stat and I'm sure he was thinking "I could be playing with those guys instead of wasting away in NO." It would be ridiculous if we could land him and still have enough to fill in the rest of the pieces; I'd probably cream my pants.

KingofNy · Mar 3, 2011

STAT1 said:
Do you think the Miami Heat were concerned about what would happen if D Wade or Lebron got hurt & the other were only left with Bosh, Miller & a bunch of scrubs? I don't. Injuries can happen to anyone, you don't make moves or not make them out of concern that a player might get hurt unless he's had a history of being injured in the past. Making the Antonio McKnee trade for example was the worst trade in Knicks' history because we already knew he was a huge injury risk. Dwight Howard is 1 of the most durable players in the game for crying out loud he's only missed 3 games in his entire 7 yr career, not making a play for him because you're afraid he might get injured is sorta like not signing Albert Pujols to a longterm contract because you're scared he might go on the DL. You can't run a professional sports franchise with that kind of thinking.

You have to worry about that. If you're the Miami Heat right now and Lebron gets injured for the season there's no chance in hell they make it out of the first round. If they had just two stars and one goes out but they have a bunch of borderline all-stars surrounding them and good role players off the bench they still would have a shot. The problem is they have no money other than to hire guys for the vets minimum.

Who really knows who's right or wrong here, I'm just guessing. IMO it's going to be a moot point anyways because I've heard nothing but rumors about Howard wanting to go to LA. Like I said earlier I wouldn't be upset if we got him but I just think I PERSONALLY would rather have more talent surrounding 2 all-stars that 3 all-stars and not much other help.

KingofNy · Mar 3, 2011

Sons of Thunder said:

But at the same time you do need to plan for contingencies and can't put all your eggs in one basket. Hell, even if they never got injured, our three superstars won't be able to play 40 minutes every game, all season long and throughout the playoffs. We need supporting pieces around them to actually be relevant (ie, not exhausted) come playoff time .

If we could somehow work some magic and have cap space for said supporting pieces while signing another big name, then that'd be great. But I don't know if it's worth banking everything on that 3rd big name and not having enough left over to cover our own backs.

Click to expand...

Sons of Thunder said:
That being said, CP3 did look thoroughly depressed today. He's friends with Melo and Stat and I'm sure he was thinking "I could be playing with those guys instead of wasting away in NO." It would be ridiculous if we could land him and still have enough to fill in the rest of the pieces; I'd probably cream my pants.

Well said. The only other star I could see that would be worth adding is Howard. I don't think I'd put all my eggs into CP3, that's for sure.

Sons of Thunder · Mar 3, 2011

KingofNy said:
Well said. The only other star I could see that would be worth adding is Howard. I don't think I'd put all my eggs into CP3, that's for sure.

I wonder what the price difference would be between the two. I'm thinking with CP3 there's some chance of cap wiggle room when all's said and done. Howard will probably eat up our entire cap space, no? I've been away from the game for quite a while so forgive me if my theory is totally off.

STAT1 · Mar 3, 2011

KingofNy said:
You have to worry about that. If you're the Miami Heat right now and Lebron gets injured for the season there's no chance in hell they make it out of the first round. If they had just two stars and one goes out but they have a bunch of borderline all-stars surrounding them and good role players off the bench they still would have a shot. The problem is they have no money other than to hire guys for the vets minimum.

Who really knows who's right or wrong here, I'm just guessing. IMO it's going to be a moot point anyways because I've heard nothing but rumors about Howard wanting to go to LA. Like I said earlier I wouldn't be upset if we got him but I just think I PERSONALLY would rather have more talent surrounding 2 all-stars that 3 all-stars and not much other help.

I disagree. I think even without Lebron that team is still good enough to easily beat any #7 or 8 seed they face. You seriously think the Sixers or Pacers are gonna present any kind of real challenge to a team of Wade, Bosh, Bibby, Miller, Big Z, Dampier & the rest of their role player squad?

STAT1 · Mar 3, 2011

Sons of Thunder said:
But at the same time you do need to plan for contingencies and can't put all your eggs in one basket. Hell, even if they never got injured, our three superstars won't be able to play 40 minutes every game, all season long and throughout the playoffs. We need supporting pieces around them to actually be relevant (ie, not exhausted) come playoff time .

If we could somehow work some magic and have cap space for said supporting pieces while signing another big name, then that'd be great. But I don't know if it's worth banking everything on that 3rd big name and not having enough left over to cover our own backs.

That being said, CP3 did look thoroughly depressed today. He's friends with Melo and Stat and I'm sure he was thinking "I could be playing with those guys instead of wasting away in NO." It would be ridiculous if we could land him and still have enough to fill in the rest of the pieces; I'd probably cream my pants.

I think CP3 is a risk because of his knees. I can understand not wanting to bank your entire future on him, but when you have already 2 other mega-stars on the team you're not faced with that dilemma. You already have 2 contingencies in place with multiple superstars on the same team. I would still make a play for him regardless if we had to trade Landry Fields or not, role players like him are of little consequence to me as cold as that sounds & I do like Landry a lot but we're talking about elite players here afterall.

To me, Dwight Howard is an exception to every rule, you absolutely move Heaven & Earth to get a player of his calibre, even if it means having to trade STAT or Melo to get him I would do it. If you think what we gave up for Melo was anything to base a judgement on it's gonna take more to get Dwight Howard from the Magic in any trade. That's why I don't think we have any shot of getting him. I think he's gonna end up with the Lakers playing next to Kobe, or maybe Deron Williams gets lured to Orlando to play with him in a devastating PnR tandem in their last ditch attempt to keep him there longterm? I don't think Deron is gonna stay in NJ beyond this year. Would love to get him to the Knicks too, but with little left to deal we really need the CBA to have a higher cap limit in order to have any realistic shot at landing another megastar to complete our big 3 picture for the longterm future.

For now I'm perfectly happy with Chauncey Billups at the PG, I think he's just about the best option we could have come up with outside of any of the big names that will turn FA in 2012. Would not be upset at all if he were our consolation prize in all this after next season & we ended up extending him for another season for less money & adding other pieces around the team with whatever's left over either.

KingofNy · Mar 3, 2011

STAT1 said:
I disagree. I think even without Lebron that team is still good enough to easily beat any #7 or 8 seed they face. You seriously think the Sixers or Pacers are gonna present any kind of real challenge to a team of Wade, Bosh, Bibby, Miller, Big Z, Dampier & the rest of their role player squad?

I dunno because I really don't consider Bosh that much of an All-star. I think he's severely overrated. Amare>Bosh by a mile. Can the Heat win the first round without Lebron? Maybe...But I highly doubt they make it much further... Also, Philly's been looking good lately, they've really stepped their D up.

KingofNy · Mar 3, 2011

STAT1 said:
I think CP3 is a risk because of his knees. I can understand not wanting to bank your entire future on him, but when you have already 2 other mega-stars on the team you're not faced with that dilemma. You already have 2 contingencies in place with multiple superstars on the same team. I would still make a play for him regardless if we had to trade Landry Fields or not, role players like him are of little consequence to me as cold as that sounds & I do like Landry a lot but we're talking about elite players here afterall.

To me, Dwight Howard is an exception to every rule, you absolutely move Heaven & Earth to get a player of his calibre, even if it means having to trade STAT or Melo to get him I would do it. If you think what we gave up for Melo was anything to base a judgement on it's gonna take more to get Dwight Howard from the Magic in any trade. That's why I don't think we have any shot of getting him. I think he's gonna end up with the Lakers playing next to Kobe, or maybe Deron Williams gets lured to Orlando to play with him in a devastating PnR tandem in their last ditch attempt to keep him there longterm? I don't think Deron is gonna stay in NJ beyond this year. Would love to get him to the Knicks too, but with little left to deal we really need the CBA to have a higher cap limit in order to have any realistic shot at landing another megastar to complete our big 3 picture for the longterm future.

For now I'm perfectly happy with Chauncey Billups at the PG, I think he's just about the best option we could have come up with outside of any of the big names that will turn FA in 2012. Would not be upset at all if he were our consolation prize in all this after next season & we ended up extending him for another season for less money & adding other pieces around the team with whatever's left over either.

I see Orlando trading for CP3 this offseason. The Nets are banking hard on
Deron being the face of their franchise for the move to Brooklyn. I think they're going to hold on to him as long as they can in hopes of him just changing his mind and staying there. It's not looking too good for the Nets now and I can't be happier. I never hated them until they started playing stupid games with us and now I hope they crash and burn.

STAT1 · Mar 3, 2011

KingofNy said:
I dunno because I really don't consider Bosh that much of an All-star. I think he's severely overrated. Amare>Bosh by a mile. Can the Heat win the first round without Lebron? Maybe...But I highly doubt they make it much further... Also, Philly's been looking good lately, they've really stepped their D up.

I agree Bosh is certainly not a superstar, but he's definitely legit. I just don't see how a team with D Wade, Bosh & the rest of the Heat roster isn't good enough to advance but a team of Iguodala, a past his prime Elton Brand & a bunch of inexperienced young role players is. I think the Knicks would definitely have enough to beat the Heat w/o Lebron though, so if they fell to #3 in the standings they'd be in for trouble in the 1st round if we ended up facing them. But anyway, Lebron is another 1 of the most durable players in the game so planning for that type of contingency is kinda moot. If anything they'd be without D Wade & even still Lebron, Bosh & the rest of that cast would be good enough to beat just about any team in the NBA other than maybe the Lakers & Celtics. This is what having great players affords you, insurance policies against injury to a key player. Melo & Billups have gotten the Nuggets to the WCF against tougher competition without STAT & only got beat by the eventual champion Lakers in 6 games. If you were to add a player like Dwight to that Nuggets team in place of Nene & some of their other role players, who do you think would have won the championship that year? To me it wouldn't have even been a question, the Nuggets would have beaten the Lakers & the Celtics in the Finals. The same would hold true if Dwight were ever to somehow end up playing in NY next to Melo or STAT & Chauncey IMO. But again, it's not happening so we're probably just wasting our time talking about it. Time for bed anyway. :smokin:

STAT1 · Mar 3, 2011

KingofNy said:
I see Orlando trading for CP3 this offseason. The Nets are banking hard on
Deron being the face of their franchise for the move to Brooklyn. I think they're going to hold on to him as long as they can in hopes of him just changing his mind and staying there. It's not looking too good for the Nets now and I can't be happier. I never hated them until they started playing stupid games with us and now I hope they crash and burn.

I can see ORL making a push for CP3 too, him & Dwight would be devastating together. But I still think Deron is out of NJ after this season, it doesn't matter how much they want to keep him unless they can convince another megastar to come join him in NJ next year then there's no way Deron is gonna stick around. At most I can see someone like Zach Randolph being their answer to pair him up with, & that's not gonna be good enough to keep him in Jersey through another season while they wait to move to Brooklyn IMO. Even if they decide to target lesser players like Nene, Tyson Chandler or Tayshaun Prince this summer, I don't think that's gonna be a good enough team to get Deron to commit to that franchise for another 5 year deal. Maybe if Yao Ming were healthy & NJ succeeded in landing him then it would change Deron's mind about staying on.

KnicksFanFromQueens1985 · Mar 3, 2011

@ STAT1... I'm not trying to argue with you, I like you as a Knicks poster; you add solid insight. Of course I would love a Howard or CP3, maybe I should have created the thread title as 'We don't need CP3 or Howard during 2012 to compete for a ring'. I guess you can say "Don't want" were too strong of words.

I know what I said about Howard. The man is a freak of nature on the boards, can turn any defense into a top 5 defense, & he's also one hell of a shot blocker. He's the next Shaq of his prime if you ask me. I'm just not willing to see Howard's max contract completely destroy our cap space & leave us with only 2 million if we're lucky. 3 great players & a bunch of nothing isn't what I want for the team I grew up loving.

I just feel that NY now has the talent, ability & cap space; to build a championship team around two of the NBA's top 10 stars.

Maybe it's just me, but I'll take a Center such as Marc Gasol, the ability to keep Fields, & the cap space to add STRONG depth coming off the bench over DW.

KnicksFanFromQueens1985 · Mar 3, 2011

Meant to say DH as in Dwight Howard... Not DW lol

STAT1 · Mar 3, 2011

KnicksFanFromQueens1985 said:
@ STAT1... I'm not trying to argue with you, I like you as a Knicks poster; you add solid insight. Of course I would love a Howard or CP3, maybe I should have created the thread title as 'We don't need CP3 or Howard during 2012 to compete for a ring'. I guess you can say "Don't want" were too strong of words.

I know what I said about Howard. The man is a freak of nature on the boards, can turn any defense into a top 5 defense, & he's also one hell of a shot blocker. He's the next Shaq of his prime if you ask me. I'm just not willing to see Howard's max contract completely destroy our cap space & leave us with only 2 million if we're lucky. 3 great players & a bunch of nothing isn't what I want for the team I grew up loving.

I just feel that NY now has the talent, ability & cap space; to build a championship team around two of the NBA's top 10 stars.

Maybe it's just me, but I'll take a Center such as Marc Gasol, the ability to keep Fields, & the cap space to add STRONG depth coming off the bench over DW.

I agree with you for the most part I don't think this team is that far off as people may have feared before making the Melo deal. Adding a defensive presence in the paint is really the only thing we need right now. Tell u the truth if we had to target a role playing C I would much prefer someone like Deandre Jordan or Sam Dalembert. I just don't see Gasol as the answer to our interior defense & rebounding needs, he's not all that good at doing either. Our fate rides with the new CBA, hopefully the cap limit figure goes up if a hard cap is put into place & we'll have enough room to fit a couple of quality role players if we can't add a superstar.

NyCzero · Mar 3, 2011

man

Dwight Howard is probably going to L.A. to be with Kobe. It makes too much sense. Phil Jackson already has a good game plan for Kobe/Howard cuz they won rings with kobe/shaq. Dwight himself said NY is too cold for him. Chris Paul would be nice because he would make melo and stats's scoring % go up and he would have to take less pay cuz he's slower after he had the knee surgery. If he won't take a lower salary it would be better to take Deron Williams because he has been more consistent and he hasn't had any major physical problems as of yet so we wouldn't have to worry about his health.

iSaYughh · Mar 3, 2011

Style points and noble dreams aside, if you just want to win

Howard (or cp3). And there really is no other way around it.

We can win otherwise, and sure, it could feel better going that route, but if the goal is the absolute best chance of winning, it's just not close.

Melo
STAT
Howard

And a crew of Tony Douglas' is almost a mortal lock to be favored every year for the next 5, easy.

Let alone you find more "Fields'" through the draft.

Mediocre, middle of road players are the most risky and overpaid, IMO. Like in all sports. Unless you are plugging one or two in, in a "NOW we are absolutely primed to be the best" situation, not optimal.

Thr value Howard would give...over even Gasol....would cost far more, and be far more difficult to achieve, and plug into the team, than any difference in his salary over Gasols.

Any of the big three we could potentially achieve, is the mortal nuts.

Then Walsh does his job from a position of total power and leverage, finding role players, steals, and value plugging in one trick ponies.

iSaYughh · Mar 3, 2011

Didn't realize MDA had a high level starting-caliber 5. Nor a defensive 2-headed beast of a guard rotation. Nor tons of depth of proven, effective players.

aka the three most major, indisputable problems for our team.

NyCzero · Mar 3, 2011

man

If Dwight goes to L.A. and I'm sure he will, Kobe is getting 4 more rings.

SoCal KnicksFan · Mar 3, 2011

I realize the player I am going to mention in this post has had an injury prone career so far, but he intrigues me very much and IF he were to ever stay healthy he would be the Center we covet. That player is Greg Oden!!!!

I know he will be a restricted free agent in 2011-2012, but again given his history of injuries, maybe the Knicks would be able to obtain him to fit our salary cap.

Yes until the NBA gets a CBA, we will not know exactly what kind of numbers on the cap we will be crunching, but I really think ODEN could be something special in NY if healthy.

Sons of Thunder · Mar 3, 2011

SoCal KnicksFan said:
I realize the player I am going to mention in this post has had an injury prone career so far, but he intrigues me very much and IF he were to ever stay healthy he would be the Center we covet. That player is Greg Oden!!!!

I know he will be a restricted free agent in 2011-2012, but again given his history of injuries, maybe the Knicks would be able to obtain him to fit our salary cap.

Yes until the NBA gets a CBA, we will not know exactly what kind of numbers on the cap we will be crunching, but I really think ODEN could be something special in NY if healthy.

He looks like Stoudemire too.

Toons · Mar 3, 2011

foolishness....with howard, we are garunteed a ring.

Howard
Amare
Melo
Fields
Billups

4peat

I don't want CP3 or Howard during 2012's offseason...

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is the Bo$$