Mike D'Antoni's influence on our resurgence

iJoe

Rotation player
ha ha ha ha Dantoni winning a NBA championship is like diving off a 20 story
buiding head first hitting concrete and living to talk about it ha ha ha ha ha
Dantoni's flawed coaching wouldnt last a half a season in the NCAA...

Which is why he came one Robert Horry shove from winning the championship with the Suns. Say what you want about D'Antoni, but he has gotten closer to the championship than 90% of the other coaches out there.

Seriously.... blind hate is just ignorant. I don't like D'Antoni, but I won't blame every single damn thing on him. All the players like him. He's universally respected by other coaches who actually have played against him and know their shite. Most of his hate comes from bandwagon analysts and narrow minded people who always need a single scapegoat to blame all their problems on. His own players still think he's an offensive genius and blame themselves for not executing his gameplan when they lose. Its obvious D'Antoni has a decent degree of basketball knowledge and the best part is our players love him and other players want to come over to our team and play for him.

90% of being a good coach is having your team trust you and playing hard. Its really up to the players to win the game and execute plans. Look at the Wizards when they had Flip Saunders. He's known to the the thickest and most complicated playbook in the league. Unfortunately, his players are dumb as rocks and can't handle anything even close to an actual NBA play. Is it the coach's fault?
 

amazinz5

Benchwarmer
Which is why he came one Robert Horry shove from winning the championship with the Suns. Say what you want about D'Antoni, but he has gotten closer to the championship than 90% of the other coaches out there.

Seriously.... blind hate is just ignorant. I don't like D'Antoni, but I won't blame every single damn thing on him. All the players like him. He's universally respected by other coaches who actually have played against him and know their shite. His own players still think he's an offensive genius and blame themselves for not executing his gameplan when they lose.

90% of being a good coach is having your team trust you and playing hard. Its really up to the players to win the game and execute plans. Look at the Wizards when they had Flip Saunders. He's known to the the thickest and most complicated playbook in the league. Unfortunately, his players are dumb as rocks and can't handle anything even close to an actual NBA play. Is it the coach's fault?

OBVIOUSLY any good coach wouldnt have had his players in a position to be shoved
 

Red

TYPE-A
How can someone say its all one person and not another? Would lin have set scoring records with any system, for any coach? The only reason were getting into the paint and getting high % shots is because we now have someone capable/willing to get into the paint and get high % shots.

So let me get this straight.

First you ask "how can someone say its one person and not another?"

Then you follow that up by asserting the difference is "having someone capable/willing to get into the paint."

That's called double talk. Stop wasting our time.

Regarding it being "one person and not another"... both of these options entail "one", thus the only valid argument you have or intimate is it was due to someONE else. And for that you have no basis to name D'Antoni as that one.

Here's why:

1. Mike was flummoxed as he admitted- he had no answers nor explainations for our poor results

2. Lin has been on our bench PRIOR to starting 8-15

Now stay with me...

Those things above form the basis for REASONABLE INFERRENCE that Lin is mostly responsible for this surge, because obviously had Mike known, he would have been playing him.

since some of you obviously chose to skip over the logical parts of this thread, i feel it necessary to paste this here:
unless you have significant samples of lin with dantoni, lin with another coach, and dantoni with another pg, you cannot draw conclusions as far as who is responsible for the success strictly from the box score. the truth is they BOTH deserve credit, but i can understand those simple-minded or mentally lazy people needing a simpler explanation like 'its x or its y'

Now here's logic.

We who know basketball knew our style (undisciplined chucking) would not and could not work sans every single mitigating factor falling our way-

We begged for inside scoring, begged for use of our bigs, begged for post play...

It didn't happen until Lin made that happen, thus superseding Mike.

We've done one thing with one set of results, then tried another thing and got better results...

Logic dictates playing inside out leads to better results. If Lin was responsible for playing inside out, who was logically responsibe for playing outside in? (see Knicks shoot over 40 threes @ 42% and still lost)

Simple math. No sabermetrics needed.
 

amazinz5

Benchwarmer
So let me get this straight.

First you ask "how can someone say its one person and not another?"

Then you follow that up by asserting the difference is "having someone capable/willing to get into the paint."

That's called double talk. Stop wasting our time.

Regarding it being "one person and not another"... both of these options entail "one", thus the only valid argument you have or intimate is it was due to someONE else. And for that you have no basis to name D'Antoni as that one.

Here's why:

1. Mike was flummoxed as he admitted- he had no answers nor explainations for our poor results

2. Lin has been on our bench PRIOR to starting 8-15

Now stay with me...

Those things above form the basis for REASONABLE INFERRENCE that Lin is mostly responsible for this surge, because obviously had Mike known, he would have been playing him.



Now here's logic.

We who know basketball knew our style (undisciplined chucking) would not and could not work sans every single mitigating factor falling our way-

We begged for inside scoring, begged for use of our bigs, begged for post play...

It didn't happen until Lin made that happen, thus superseding Mike.

We've done one thing with one set of results, then tried another thing and got better results...

Logic dictates playing inside out leads to better results. If Lin was responsible for playing inside out, who was logically responsibe for playing outside in? (see Knicks shoot over 40 threes @ 42% and still lost)

Simple math. No sabermetrics needed.
jeremy lin didnt do shit before last week, obviously the only difference is mike dantoni

did lin go against mikes orders and decide to get inside himself? has dantoni preached setting a pic and running to a spot behind the arc for an open three all these years?

if mike dantoni picked his roster and didnt have a pg i'd understand not having a pg that can run his system being his fault. now that he has what he needs the knicks are killing it. partially because of lin, and partially because of dantoni. also deserving credit are tyson, jj, novak, shumpert, woodson.

youre putting words in my mouth. i never gave mda all the credit. you cannot say it was one person or the other because with the variable of having lin playing and the constant of mda we have had recent success. the closest we have to empirical evidence is: lin without dantoni did not work, dantoni without lin has varied from pathetic to not that far from champions, and dantoni with lin looks like a match made in heaven. you'd have a much better arguement if it was some pg that had MORE success without dantoni than with him.
 
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And yet you continue to skirt the issue.

Again, it's simple: If you are fair about MDA how does saying "if he brings a championship I MIGHT consider laying off him" make you at all fair?

He would give the ultimate prize back to NY, the best possible outcome of the season, a championship in NY. And you MIGHT CONSIDER laying off of him. Not "I will lay off him" or "I would tone down the criticism", but "MIGHT CONSIDER" it.

That's not fair.

And if you are think you are fair, you are blind.

You just dont want to accept my answer. You started the JVG and Riley comparison. MDA has just about as much talent now than both those coaches teams combined. Him bringing back a ring should be a foregone conclusion.

The reason I only "MIGHT" consider laying off him is because the team is young enough to win multiple titles.

The reason I only "MIGHT" consider laying off him is because I dont like his philosophy.

The reason I only "MIGHT" consider laying off him is because he has to adjust to his roster sometimes. Which he is proving time and again he's incapable of doing...
 

amazinz5

Benchwarmer
this will be much easier once people accept 'mike benefited from having a pg' and 'lin benefited from having a system that optimizes his abilities' are not mutually exclusive
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
Mike D'Antoni is one of the 5 best offensive coaches in the NBA.
LOLOLOLOLOL! SO now we're separating head coaches into offensive and defensive? Tell me who's the 5 best COACHES period?

He's also top 5 in coach-player relationships, I've never heard of a player who doesn't want to play for D'Antoni.

From members of Team USA, to NBA All-Star Game members to Free Agents, every player I listen to has nothing but praises for D'Antoni.

Are you serious? Players always speak positive about coaches. Its basically an unwritten rule while you're still in the league and want to continue earning money. Its media training 101 man! Ask those same players about any other coach and you'll get similar answers. LOL @ you not knowing that.

He's well respected among his colleagues too, from JVG to POP to coach K.
See above. Also, coaching is a fraternity in case you failed to realize that too.

Our players really seem to like and support him and when they buy into his system, we win as the last couple of games demonstrated.
After all this time, players have still not bought into his "system"? Strange.

D'Antoni is a decent coach and has a unique ability to get the most out of mediocre players or turn good players into superstars.

His offense doesn't suit every player though that's why a guy like Melo doesn't look too good under D'Antoni, but that's not D'Antoni's fault.
Okay so you claim MOA has a "unique" ability to get the most out of players but then say his "offense" doesn't suit every player. That proves to me and everyone that he's not very versatile and at most a one trick pony. I guess the mediocre players you're talking about is Felton/Duhon and the good to superstar players were Nash/Amare. I'd say Nash is solely responsible for Amare's stardom. Nash would have been great no matter what IMO.
 

amazinz5

Benchwarmer
if i had a pony and it could only do one thing, but that one thing was to make sofya vergara appear and suck my cock i would not be complaining about what it couldnt do. mike dantoni can make this team as strong an offensive threat as anyone, but we love to harp on what he couldnt do when he didnt have the talent he needed.
 
this will be much easier once people accept 'mike benefited from having a pg' and 'lin benefited from having a system that optimizes his abilities' are not mutually exclusive

I have no problem accepting any of that. My point is MDAs adjustment pre-Lin. God forbid, what happens if Lin is injured for 2-3 weeks? We lose games because MDA cant adjust? We start shooting an inordinate amount of threes because Lin isnt there? There are ways to exploit the paint area without the perfect PG.

Its been done for decades. Just not by MDA...
 

amazinz5

Benchwarmer

I have no problem accepting any of that. My point is MDAs adjustment pre-Lin. God forbid, what happens if Lin is injured for 2-3 weeks? We lose games because MDA cant adjust? We start shooting an inordinate amount of threes because Lin isnt there? There are ways to exploit the paint area without the perfect PG.

Its been done for decades. Just not by MDA...

1) its been established that mda has shortcomings that are pretty much standard for any other coach to be fine with
2) thats like asking for interior defense with a soft pf-c combo. you cant credit him in that area but if anyone gets the blame its the person that failed to provide the tools necessary. if lin goes down were screwed but no coach can run an offense smoothly with no pg unless you have a kobe or lebron.
 
1) its been established that mda has shortcomings that are pretty much standard for any other coach to be fine with

Standard for any other coach? Are you blind? There is no other coach in the league that would allow non shooters such as Jeffries to take long jump shots in the flow of their offense. There is no other coach in the league that see's a man of Jorts size walk into their gym and immediately start honing the kids 3 point shot.

2) thats like asking for interior defense with a soft pf-c combo. you cant credit him in that area but if anyone gets the blame its the person that failed to provide the tools necessary. if lin goes down were screwed but no coach can run an offense smoothly with no pg unless you have a kobe or lebron.

So the Lakers and heat win while not having a standout PG. Hmmm. I wonder if the teams respective coaches adjusted to this missing piece. Let me ask you.

Would those teams offenses be better with a "REAL" PG with also having LBG and Kobe?
 

amazinz5

Benchwarmer
1) its been established that mda has shortcomings in areas that are pretty much standard for any other coach to be fine with
2) thats like asking for interior defense with a soft pf-c combo. you cant credit him in that area but if anyone gets the blame its the person that failed to provide the tools necessary. if lin goes down were screwed but no coach can run an offense smoothly with no pg unless you have a kobe or lebron.


Standard for any other coach? Are you blind? There is no other coach in the league that would allow non shooters such as Jeffries to take long jump shots in the flow of their offense. There is no other coach in the league that see's a man of Jorts size walk into their gym and immediately start honing the kids 3 point shot.



So the Lakers and heat win while not having a standout PG. Hmmm. I wonder if the teams respective coaches adjusted to this missing piece. Let me ask you.

Would those teams offenses be better with a "REAL" PG with also having LBG and Kobe?

i could have worded it better, but if you paid attention to what i've been saying you wouldnt have misinterpreted my point.

i dont understand the comparison you're making. having the extremely rare talents of kobe or lebron can make up for lack of a pg. lebron basically is one and kobe can be an offense. this in no way makes dantoni responsible for not having the pieces needed.
 

Red

TYPE-A
In order for Mike to get credit, he would've had to play Lin (other than garbage time, which illustrates even more) prior to Feb 4th. He didn't, so he doesn't.

Its cool though... we know what's up. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
 

amazinz5

Benchwarmer
i dont think (i hope) no one will disagree lin should have been our pg since xmas day, or maybe when we knew shump and baron would both need time. but knowing what we knew then (next to nothing) is it really that bad that it has to take away from anything he does well or extremely well?
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
if i had a pony and it could only do one thing, but that one thing was to make sofya vergara appear and suck my cock i would not be complaining about what it couldnt do. mike dantoni can make this team as strong an offensive threat as anyone, but we love to harp on what he couldnt do when he didnt have the talent he needed.

Fortunately for everyone, basksetball isn't as simple as that.
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
It's apparent neither side can sway the other side for or against MOA. With that said, it really doesn't even matter because once Jax publicly announces his desire to return to basketball Dolan will have him on speed dial.
 

iSaYughh

Starter
Him bringing back a ring should be a foregone conclusion.

The reason I only "MIGHT" consider laying off him is because the team is young enough to win multiple titles.

What are you smokin', dude????

Do you realize the upper crust teams in the NBA today that exist?

And that we are in Year 1 of this "juggernaut" team you think we have...which, mind you, up until a month ago didn't have a halfway legitimate point guard on its roster! And had two maxed out superstars that anyone with a shred of objectivity knows are some mix of:

overpaid
flawed
not true superstars on the level of the studs you reference on other teams

And you reference Lebron, in contrast? As if a team with Melo or Amare can in any way be compared to a team with Lebron? Who, incidentally, has better PG skills and distribution skills than 90% of the point guards in the NBA.

Based off your two above statements about championships, you honestly overrate and overhype our team to an *extreme* extent, while simultaneously underrating and not paying attention to the other franchises in the NBA.

Whether part of that is tied to your admitted dislike of MDA, which gives you a hedge for if we do win a chip: "well, we were supposed to, it's not really that we have a coach who was integral to us getting a miraculous NBA championship".

I challenge Red, or Nyk, or any other MDA critic to honestly back you up on record to both of those statements, about us winning a title being a foregone conclusion, and that somehow a (reasonable) expectation of multiple titles is present because "the team is young".
 
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iSaYughh

Starter
Btw, I called all this out..last year...BEFORE Melo even came:

the logical fallacy of the moving goal post.

That we could win a NBA championship, and the true MDA haters wouldn't have their extreme bias swayed; and would fault MDA for not playing some random D-leauger, or if we didn't repeat a championship in year two (lol@ all this), it would be because MDA and his coaching destroyed a multi-chip dynasty.

Isn't it convenient that whenever something goes wrong, it's almost all MDA; but when we exceed expectations and do well, including the expectations of those who hate MDA, it has nothing to do with MDA being good, but is all about other people....who surely would have done their good even sooner, if it wasn't for this mystical beast of horror who coaches us?

And that this truly epic, almost mythic horror of a coach...just so happens to be a coach of the year winner, and extremely respected and lauded NBA coach and basketball mind by players (including EX-nba players) and coaches, and NBA fans?

Do you guys really think this adds up? Or that maybe, just maybe, there's a deep flaw in your thinking on MDA, that's biasing and polluting many of the arguments you then go on to make?
 

iSaYughh

Starter
It's apparent neither side can sway the other side for or against MOA. With that said, it really doesn't even matter because once Jax publicly announces his desire to return to basketball Dolan will have him on speed dial.

The great Jackson; who would only even sniff coming here, if we had proven superstar talent and a loaded roster, just to his liking.

And I dont' fault Jax for that, either; I think he's a very good coach, and a great basketball mind who is the ultimate coach for many rosters.

But there's a certain irony in people complainign about MDA needing these special, super duper players (like an NBA point guard, who incidentally came in the form of a D-league castoff)...

When Jax wouldn't have touched this botchjob team and franchise during the years MDA has been here.
 
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