Can we cut the Superstar sh*t?
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
Red
TYPE-A
Crazy⑧s;181315 said:
That is sensational.
Thank, I got it from another poster on the nykfp.com forum. Funny as hell!
On Jerome Jordan, are you not a fan of his prospectus? Did you read the article in his thread? The media is selling him like he is our savior.
On LJ Trill says he's the weakest mind superstar, I blame the media.
He and readers have been conditioned that he's "the best". But to me he may be the best athlete but not the best player. We keep heaing about how can the best play like that and such.
But where is his finesse game? He runs jumps and out-muscles his way but I don't see the key elements I've been accustomed to with true best players.
I believe the media and fans need to proclaim someone the next coming, and I blame Jordan. Its the Jordan effect to me. A wing player must be compared to him since he was/is the best.
Now when I see LJ first I notice that he bounced and refused to accept he is a star that needs help and even that doesn't gaurantee anyting. Before he bounced I heard excuses. You know I don't do excuses.
His coach
His Mom
His team
His front office
He was tired/ too many minutes
His girl
That to me was too much. How about he believed everyone since a kid that he was the 2nd coming and didn't realize he's not. So he cannot accept anything but it was someone or something else, not him.
In truth he needs to be humbled. He needs to consider reality. In reality its rare the fastest, strongest players win. Sure there are the Shaqs of NBA's past ala Wilt who dominated.
But the MJ'S, kobe's and Duncans who weren't necessarily the most athletic or at least had others their same size etc... play ball. They don't. Bowl everyone over. They don't point fingures, they exploit the nuances of the game and that happens after being honest and working on their weaknesses, not believing the media can determine who's the best.
How can he do that if he's already "the best"?
Then he had more pressure by thinking once he teams with Bosh and Wade it was basically a foregone conclusion he would win.
Had he been humble he would of stayed in CLE. His talents don't equate to championships just polarizing
1. Fire D'antoni, small ball doesn't work. Again, the team with the most size won the chip.
2. Carlisle coached the hell outta Ellen Degeneres too in this series. Miami's offense was garbage. No ball movement, people passing up open looks, Wade playing ISO the whole time.
3. Get a GM that is a stat nerd. Dallas front office contains the main who invented 82games.com and created advanced metrics for NBA players. It won't help get a superstar, but will probably help getting roleplayers who fit our system.
2. Carlisle coached the hell outta Ellen Degeneres too in this series. Miami's offense was garbage. No ball movement, people passing up open looks, Wade playing ISO the whole time.
3. Get a GM that is a stat nerd. Dallas front office contains the main who invented 82games.com and created advanced metrics for NBA players. It won't help get a superstar, but will probably help getting roleplayers who fit our system.
ronoranina
Fundamentally Sound
I really agree w this post. The dynamics of a Paul/Melo/Amare trio would be unbelievable. It'd be like Magic running w Kareem and "BiG GamE" James. And that trio would contrast the the Miami big three because you wouldn't have two dominating wing players taking turns trying to orchestrate/ score, w Bosh sorta lost in the shuffle. Paul would get them the rock where they like it while making our other role guys better as well. The chemistry between those three would be sick.
The other thing that I want to point out is that, like Trill said, Miami is going to get better. Pat Riley will make adjustments. Wade, Bosh and Bron will get more comfortable playing w one another and Spoelstra will continue to grow as coach while finding new ways to exploit the big three's talents.
I still think Miami should've won this series. They simply crumbled underneath the pressure. They aren't humble, yet. And when your not humble you will be humiliated. Seven championships my ass.. Who does that?? There should've never been any mention of dynasty-type success. These dudes need to STFu for a while and just concentrate on basketball, no lame predictions, no more ignorant comments/antics and just keep it movin'. All of the hate and poor karma surrounding this team is what, to me, had the big three playing shook out there, passing up shots and such, looking f-ed up in the game. They had no swag. The coughing incident added to this. It put added pressure on Wade and Lebron and served as yet another distraction.
Although I hate Miami, and I ultimately wanted them to lose, I found myself frustrated because they were the better sqaud and they should've beaten Dallas. People say Dallas had the better 8 or 10. Maybe that is the case, but Miami was up 2-1. They were in control. Game 3 was so close, a 2 point loss. They fumbled it. Mentally they just couldn't hang w Dallas, who just put their collective heads down and went to work against them. Now imagine if their had been no hype? No lame predictions? No added BS pressure? Last night costly turnovers (balls bouncing off of Wades foot for crying out loud), lacadasical play, missed freethrows- just bad basketball lost them the game. Mentally they weren't there. They gave that shit to Dallas. Deep down I was frustrated to see a team that should've won, lose because of all of the negative enrgy surrounding their team.
In couple of years (maybe next) Miami is going to be fierce. The tendancy is to look at the now, but down the road Miaimi has the potential to be really dominant if they play their cards right and we don't. That is why I still think we need to get another star here.
I would rather have Paul instead of D12. Remember D12 has shown no desire to want to be here playing next to Amare. I don't think Amare wants to play along side that middle clogger either. Plus, w a STAT/Melo/D12 combo the dynamics between, IMO, would not be good. You'd have the two dominant bigs both needing the ball in the post.. Yes Amare can face-up at the foul line or elbow, but where is D12 in this scenario. On the perimeter?? Guys will just lay off of D12 and help on Amare at will. If D12 gets the ball to drive this would work better, as Amare could hang on the perimeter. If he's making that particular night his man would be hesitant to leave him to help on D12. I think our ball-movement suffer w those three on the same squad. Three ball stoppers together is not a good look.
I just think there's so much more balance in a CP3/ Melo/Amare three. It would allow for so much flexiblilty. Think about it. Melo would prolly come out before either Paul or STAT, you bring in a shooter and run the pick and roll w Paul and Amare resulting in a layup for Paul, a dunk or jumper off a pop for Amare, or a kick to an open shooter for a three. When Amare's out and Paul and Melo are in together you could get a little two man game going, some give and go. Melo could isolate and kick to Paul or any of the other shooters depending on where the help comes from or finish outright . If Melo gets the ball to Paul after he's met w help off of a drive and a defender rotates over to Paul to help, Paul can easily beat him, break down the D and find another open shooter or finish the play himself. The level of confusion and unpredictablity for a defense with these three guys would be astounding. It would strike fear in the hearts of opposing teams.
When the three are on the floor together. You can get the pick and roll between Amare and Paul going. We know how that works. The defense would have to pick their poison. If Melo gets the ball off of a kick, he immediately becomes a serious threat if his man is stupid enough to have rotated off of him. Whoever rotates back is either gettng driven by for a lay in or dunk, or a jumper wetted in their face. If by some miracle Melo is met w help off of a drive our center or 2 guard should miove toward the basket to recieve the ball for an easy dunk. Melo can also find the 2, or Paul for a shot along the perimeter. Our offense would be unstoppable. I hope you guys can see all of that in your minds. The possiblities are endless and I didn't even discuss our transition game. We could really get out and run w Paul, if MDA is still coach and we still are running his system mind you..
The Melo/Amare/Paul big three would be more dangerous than Miami's IMO. I also think they'd hit the ground running unlike what we saw w Miami.
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Quality Thread
This is a quality thread. Crazy8's synthesis of themes is excellent.
LJ4ptPlay, who I believe is a Denver area resident, has been consistent about Melo and I was firmly behind him, at least until that second play-off game when Melo was magnificient. But I do recall that one of LJ's primary points was Melo's inconsistency. I continue to have some of LJ's concerns, particularly our lack of cap space and assets going forward. We are not in position to be anything but delusional as to our prospects for CP3 or Dwight Howard. But I am hopeful that Melo's and Amare's pride will cause each to use his athleticism at both ends of the court. They have the physical capacity to be dominant defenders. Of course we could use a coach who has an interest in defense
I am also firmly behind Red, we need a big. As for D'Antoni, I think he is with us for another year. I am not a fan of his game. We have got to play some defense.
This draft might give some insight into the future. For example, if Fredette and Singleton were both available at 17, and we were to pick Fredette, it would suggest a commitment to D'Antoni's current system --a perimeter shooter who plays no defense. If we were to pick Singleton, it would suggest a commitment to defense.
This is a quality thread. Crazy8's synthesis of themes is excellent.
LJ4ptPlay, who I believe is a Denver area resident, has been consistent about Melo and I was firmly behind him, at least until that second play-off game when Melo was magnificient. But I do recall that one of LJ's primary points was Melo's inconsistency. I continue to have some of LJ's concerns, particularly our lack of cap space and assets going forward. We are not in position to be anything but delusional as to our prospects for CP3 or Dwight Howard. But I am hopeful that Melo's and Amare's pride will cause each to use his athleticism at both ends of the court. They have the physical capacity to be dominant defenders. Of course we could use a coach who has an interest in defense
I am also firmly behind Red, we need a big. As for D'Antoni, I think he is with us for another year. I am not a fan of his game. We have got to play some defense.
This draft might give some insight into the future. For example, if Fredette and Singleton were both available at 17, and we were to pick Fredette, it would suggest a commitment to D'Antoni's current system --a perimeter shooter who plays no defense. If we were to pick Singleton, it would suggest a commitment to defense.
ronoranina
Fundamentally Sound
What the hell is this nonsense (left Duncan unbolded because actually wasn't athletic)?? Smfh head dude..
Jordan was the greatest athlete of his era, no? Kobe? He was no slouch either.
Yes they were both uber fundamentally sound to go along w their athletic gifts, but to say they "weren't the most athletic".. Wow.
I get where your going re: Lebron, as he doesn't have the polish of Kobe or Jordan, or even Wade for that matter to go along w his athletic talent. The example you utilized was terrible however.
RunningJumper
Super Moderator
A lot of typing in this thread. I'm gonna have to read it later.
I'll just say that Billups is a winner who, if he comes back, will allow room for another player or two. I think that's far more important.
That addition of Paul may or may not be ridiculously good on offense, but I don't see how that helps our defense. Plus add in that I believe we can win without risking all of our cap on three players.
I'll just say that Billups is a winner who, if he comes back, will allow room for another player or two. I think that's far more important.
That addition of Paul may or may not be ridiculously good on offense, but I don't see how that helps our defense. Plus add in that I believe we can win without risking all of our cap on three players.
STAT1
Starter
Red, let me ask you what bigman do you really think the Knicks can get that would vault us to championship contender status right now? Are there any real C's out there that can take us over the top other than D12 in your eyes that we can realistically target? I know you're not in favor of targetting CP3, so what kind of team do you plan to build & how do you plan on putting it together? To put together a championship calibre roster, we're going to have to have some assets to acquire the players necessary. We have limited cap space this summer so you won't be able to get many quality players to fill the holes we need to be filled. I've seen you adamantly express your position against targetting another superstar, but what is the alternative? How do you think the Knicks can put together a championship calibre roster with limited cap space this summer & a #17 draft pick? I'm honestly curious to see what your plan is here.
Also curious to know whether you were against signing STAT & trading for Melo too. Were you one of those fans who wanted to stay the course with guys like David Lee, Gallo, Wilson & Mozgov & build a championship contender that way?
Also curious to know whether you were against signing STAT & trading for Melo too. Were you one of those fans who wanted to stay the course with guys like David Lee, Gallo, Wilson & Mozgov & build a championship contender that way?
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Crazy⑧s
Evacuee
That was a Newsday article wasn't it? Dolan family owned and operated.
http://www.knicksonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10838
The above text in bold makes sense to me.
Hype, at this stage, bares little meaning. It's good to see that there was notable physical growth, because he was 235lb when we signed him. How that translates in to deserved hype is beyond me.
Another point is that he's never been a great shot blocker as a pro. In both the Adriatic and Eurocup competitions, he averaged 0.5/0.6 BPG. I know that you and I both agree that we need a traditional big. The BPG and the body mass aren't proving that he has the game we so desperately need.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jerome-Jordan-5160/
* His burst appendix kept him out of our training sessions with this year's rookie class, so again, where is the hype stemmed from?
RunningJumper
Super Moderator
There is a limited amount of centers out there, maybe only guys such as Dalembert is available, but we can start the road to a championship with a good coach and more defensive players. Add veterans such as Iverson and T-Mac. Our superstars our young, so it'd only be positive to add players who used be able to play on a superstar level and still play good. Kidd is an example of that.
1. Add defensive players
2. Add good coach
3. Add veterans
4. Draft the best players available (it doesn't matter what position, our bench needs the best)
We would like to win it all next season, but to get another max to win it the first year is rushing it. Do not be surprised if one of our superstars gets traded at one point if this happened, and it wouldn't be Chris Paul, it'd be either the guy from New York, or the guy who brought us back. Take your pick, I wouldn't want to.
Clyde & The Pearl
Starter
You guys do realize that the last time our Knicks won a championship they had 6 Hall of Famers. Not just stars or superstars, but some of the best that ever played the game. If you have a chance to add a CP3 or D12 you jump at it and dont look back.
Reed HOF
Debusschere HOF
Bradley HOF
Monroe HOF
Frazier HOF
Lucas HOF
Personally, I wouldnt want to get a bunch of fringe type players and trust MDA to coach them up to the level necessary for us to become a championship caliber team. The more superstars we have the less we'll have to depend on them being coached up.
Reed HOF
Debusschere HOF
Bradley HOF
Monroe HOF
Frazier HOF
Lucas HOF
Personally, I wouldnt want to get a bunch of fringe type players and trust MDA to coach them up to the level necessary for us to become a championship caliber team. The more superstars we have the less we'll have to depend on them being coached up.
RunningJumper
Super Moderator
Different times. Less teams among other things. There's a reason why, you know, we're not gonna get six Hall Of Famers in their 20s.
Also, I don't want to build a team to D'Antoni's likings.
RunningJumper
Super Moderator
Oh yeah, Turiaf is good, but missed a lot of games. I'd to get Camby if we can keep Turiaf.
Red
TYPE-A
Not David Lee for the price he wanted, I would take him for cheaper $ though- he is the garbage man type I feel we need with Stat and Melo and CB. Maybe not a starter but a rebounder who is unselfish and knows his role.
A Tyson Chandler type- I know you may think I'm saying that because they won but really I've been clamoring for his ype for quite some time.
A 10 rpg center with size (6'11 or >) that's it. In the $5-8m range, hopefully young enough to stay on the court.
I agree the bigs we had weren't my ideal choice as they lacked what exactly I feel we needed. Turiaf lacks size but he's smart. Moz had size but no hands no defensive I.q.
Randolph had size but no strength and needed work.
But yeah a Tyson type- Big, already seasoned, hungry enough to know his role and sign for a reasonable amount.
And on Wilson- I have no use for him at his price with Melo here. If he wants to be a 6th man and save us $ then cool, but not starter $.
On Melo I Was happy as hell we got him. I know almost everyone was thinking what I was watching MIA in these finals. I'm so glad we have CB-STAT-&Melo
They definitly have the eye of the tiger- all of them! There will be no backing down indecisiveness with them trust me.
The harder you go at them, the harder they'll bring it (no homo). We just have to get there. But once we do, watch out. And their roles should be well defined by then.
Melo is our Dirk
CB is our Kidd
And Stat is our wild card. If he rebounds and plays D being the leader he is we are a problem
Just need Fields to be our Terry and a center at the least.
Let's say Douglas is our Berrea
Lol
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Red
TYPE-A
I meant physically imposing. Jordan & Kobe weren't the biggest, fastest, strongest
MJ had hops, KB has slashing capabilities both didn't rely on physics as much as smarts. They devloped their game to exploit what the defense gave them.
Jordan was a driver, he developed his outside shot (I think he started with a 13% fg%), then worked on scoring in the post. His back-to-the-basket fade away was developed out of necessity.
That indicates two things Lebron lacks at this point:
1. Being humble, knowing he wasn't the best and needed improvement
2. Hunger and desire
I doubt Kobe or MJ would pass up 4 straight shots with the game in the balance. But LJ's limits dictated he had no go to shots.
That's Bball, how to get your shots depending on what the defense gives you and making the proper decisions. Not out running jumping and muscling. At least not a wing players game.
ronoranina
Fundamentally Sound
Ty for the clarification. I agree, Jordan was not the fastest or the strongest, but he was one of the most explosive (his first step was too much for any defender), had unbelievable jumping ability and fantasitc ball-handling skills. Jordan could get anywhere he wanted to on the court at any time. Early in his career, like Lebron, MJ did flat out overpower people with his explosiveness and tremendous ability to finish at the rim. He took the league by storm with that talent alone.
Like you said, he developed the subtle nuances over time. He also had hunger for the mental side of the game that was unmatched, Peyton Manning like infact. He knew teams and individual defenders tendancies and weaknessess better than anyone. He was obssessive about that side of the game and combined it with his great skill and physical abilty creating an edge in his favor that, well, we've all seen play out on the court in all phases and levels of competition.
Your right Lebron does not posess the heart or the head of MJ. No one does. Kobe comes close. If Lebron committed to working on a low-post game and midrange game he'd be unstoppable. He's content though. Too often you see him facing someone up 20 feet from the basket, or relying on transition plays in the open court. He's not yet the technician or tactician that MJ or Kobe was/is.
What's up w the bolded in your post??
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Red
TYPE-A
My mistake. His 3pt% his 1st four years= 17, 16, 18, and 13
But he worked on it and it increased
Taking nothing away from MJ, but do you recall his SG opposition during his years when he was beasting?
I expect his competition wasn't the best. Guys like Starks and Craig Ehlo couldn't get it done.
Who else lined up against him that could callenge him? Maybe the best was Miller or Wilkins? Bird doesn't count
ronoranina
Fundamentally Sound
I'd say the comp was similar to what it is today. I think Kobe faces about the same level as MJ did.
MJ had guys like Drexler and Ron Harper (20 ppg Harp) along with the other guys you mentioned. Hershey Hawkins was nice, though a bit undersized. The only guy I can think of that really could give Jordan a few fits here and there was Dumars. He was just a stellar defender. Jordan used to say Dumars made him work on every possession. He was the only guy MJ ever gave that type of respect to.
There was also Steve Smith, Byron Scott and a few odd undersized SG's - one from Utah and another from Houston - who's names excape me. By and large Jordan could dominate any of these guys on a given night. Just as Kobe could/ can in this era, and West in his.