We're going to need Chris Paul if we want to get by Miami's big three.

Red said:

No we don't need Chris Paul. Hasn't seeing D. Rose tought you anything?

Click to expand...

First of all D. Rose is not CP3. In Miami, Rose ran up against a better team and better players. Wade and Bron are both better than him. With CP3, we'd have a player, who like Wade is just a notch below Lebron who is the best player in the game currently. To me, CP3 is also just slightly better than Wade.

Red said:

With Stat & Melo, what can CP3 do that Billups or Felton can't?

Click to expand...

Are you seriously asking this question??

In CP3 we'd have a guy who could easily average 10-12 assists, 3-4 steals, shoot 48-50% from the field and 40% from three point range.. Neither Billups nor Felton or any other point guard in the league can do all of the things I just listed night in and night out, all while bringing rare leadership qualities that cannot be quantified, but have a real, profound effect on a game and the man's teammates.

Amare and Melo would have it EASY. They'd have the great point guard of this generation to lead them, dish to them and take over games at will if need be..

Red said:

This is a posters poor attempts to support D'Antoni by not exactly advocating for Steve Nash but rather a PG, because they feel that is what make D'Antoni sh*t work.

Click to expand...

No this my attempt to advocate for us getting the best PG since Isiah Thomas and Magic Johnson.

MDA's offense works well w a solid PG like Felton or Billups. The team numbers bare this out. But his offense flies off the damn charts and becomes a serious problem w someone like Paul or Nash at the PG position.

Every coach needs certain ingredients Red. MDA is no different. To have MDA as coach and not want for him to have what would make us all the more unstoppable seems counter-intuitive, no?

That said, I want the Knicks to acquire Paul whether MDA is the coach or not.

HE WILL GIVE US THE NUCLEUS WE NEED TO TAKE MIAMI DOWN.

Red said:

Again, hasn't league MVP D. Rose tought you anything?

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's taught me that having a deep, defensive oriented team, w one All-Star/ Superstar type player is not enough against Miami to get out of the Eastern Conference.

Red said:

CP3 isn't the answer. In fact considering we have Stat & Melo already, signing another Max will be a 4-5year death sentence.

CP3 @ 6' is nice. He is talented and can help almost any team. But he's not worth sacrificing size and depth. Part of that depth as far as the NYK's go is within the starting line-up.

We can use wishful thinking with Fields if you want and feel can become that knock-down shooter we need next to CB, Melo, and Stat. But that leaves a Center. This center must have talent.

Talented centers to anchor a defense an compliment two scorers and a facilitator that we have will be expensive and worth more than CP3- as again we need a facilitator.

Click to expand...

In looking at our team, I just feel that we need that extra touch of greatness for Amare and Melo to reach their full potential together. It may get better, but I don't think they mesh all that well out on the court together. CP3 would maximize their chemistry creating balance and uncontrollable unpredictability.

But..

Between the three of them I think we'd see a brand of prolificness that would shock the league for a period. All of my basketball instincts tell me that the three of them together would be something different, something special.

Maybe it can't or won't happen for now obvious reasons (new CBA!!!), but I want this for my Knick team. I want us to be as great a team as we can be. Getting CP3 seems to me to be the way to get there.

We have to see how the new CBA shakes out before any of us can say definitively what kind of cap problems getting him will create.

I also believe we'll take a couple of bigs in this years draft to go along with what we have to hold down the middle. I'm not so much worried about who we have at center as how many guys we can throw out there that can rebound and block shots. All we need are rebounders and shot blockers who can finish the odd put back or easy lay-in off a dish/doubleteam to go along w Amare.

Red said:

Chauncey will prove this we need CP3 wrong next year, Felton and Rose already have as one is the MVP (shut down) and the other excelled on a less than max contract.

Click to expand...

The point Red, is that we have Melo and Amare. Judging by what Miami was able to do against the team with the best record in the East this season, I just think we need to go for the jugular and get Paul here, if it's feasible/possible.

Also, Chicago had really good front-line players. They were deep and skilled at the 4 &5. The had Boozer, Asik, Gibson, Noah and my boy Kurt Thomas.

Chicago also lead the league in defense:

Opp PTS/G: 91.3 (2nd of 30)

Def Rtg/ efficiency: 100.3 (1st of 30)

In looking at the above one can deduce that Chicago had one of the deepest, best frontlines in the NBA AND one of best defenses AND the league MVP.. and still lost against Miami.

Hence the creation of this thread born from a deeper understanding of what it will take to get past the Heat.

The Finals will produce more valuable lessons.

Because of the above, I will continue to promulgate the notion that we need as many great players as it is possible to attain, CP3 in particular. And in the case of this team and this coach, a great, HOF PG would certainly not be a bad thing.

Red said:

Again, all this thread is is a referendum and support of Mike D'Antoni. Its another way of saying the OP'er believes in him and Nash and he needs a PG for his system.

Get us some depth and a center and CB, Stat & Melo will take care of the rest. Trust.

And I didn't even mention replacing D'Antoni. See.

Click to expand...

No Red,

This thread is me simply stating my belief that CP3 is the answer going forward if we want to contend in an East Conf that has a dominating team like the Heat.

Also, I don't need to beat around the bush re: my support of MDA. Anybody who reads my posts can easily ascertain where I stand.

moneyg said:

i guess the real question is....... do we settle for an pass first mediocre scoring PG and d12......... or a defensive center with mediocre offense and cp3????....i think both would work... i dont want CP3 and a offensive center and i dont want d12 and a scoring pg.. that wont cut it..

with the gun to my head i will take d12 for health reasons

Click to expand...

I don't factor D12 much into any future considerations for our franchise, I think CP3 is a much more realistic option. I see Dwight ending up staying in Orlando or going to LA to join Kobe. He's got that Hollywood personality in him.

But if we had a choice between the 2 I would take D12, he fills our biggest need which is a defensive presence in the paint. But only if we brought in a different head coach who will play inside out style basketball, not this speedball system we're playing now of launching up 30 3-pointers every game from the perimeter.

Just stumbled upon this video, good times. :beer:

Clyde & The Pearl said:

Well the fact remains we're going to need a more talented and versatile roster. BUT, were going to also need a more versatile coach. A coach that can utilize a players strengths. Just brining in CP3 and a bunch of shooters isnt going to cut it. Just playing mismatches offensively because that's all you know isnt going to cut it. Benching bigs that can help your interior defense and rebounding because they cant shoot from 15ft isnt going to cut it. Running you offense strictly outside in (RARELY IN I might add) isnt going to cut it.

We dont have time to experiment. We dont have time to see whether or not MOA has figured these things out. We dont have time to see if a defensive assistant and MOA can co exist.

Once the season ends we need to start preparing like we're going after a CHAMPIONSHIP. NOT trying to figure things out on the fly.

Click to expand...

You would have to admit though that the outside-in offense is working pretty good in Dallas at the moment, no?

It can work consistently if you have a someone who can draw attention and REAL knockdown shooters, which we don't have or (I believe Rautins is a consistent knockdown shooter)utilize yet.

The attention grabber (ie Dirk or someone of his ilk) needs to have the discipline to make the defense pay EVERYTIME they receive the double though. Not sure Melo and Amare are there yet..

ronoranina said:

You would have to admit though that the outside-in offense is working pretty good in Dallas at the moment, no?

It can work consistently if you have a someone who can draw attention and REAL knockdown shooters, which we don't have or (I believe Rautins is a consistent knockdown shooter)utilize yet.

The attention grabber (ie Dirk or someone of his ilk) needs to have the discipline to make the to make the defense pay EVERYTIME though. Not sure Melo and Amare are there yet..

Click to expand...

The reason it works in Dallas is that Dirk is unguardable (wd?). You put a big man on him he takes him to the 3 pt line. You put a smaller player on him he takes him in the paint. That team also plays defense, something that's just wishful thinking for the Knicks with MDA...

Clyde & The Pearl said:

The reason it works in Dallas is that Dirk is unguardable (wd?). You put a big man on him he takes him to the 3 pt line. You put a smaller player on him he takes him in the paint. That team also plays defense, something that's just wishful thinking for the Knicks with MDA...

Click to expand...

Melo can be that way from the perimeter too when he has it going.. But he does the same things you point out - shoot over the smaller guys and go around/by the bigger ones.

I want to be careful and distinguish between Carmelo and Amare. I believe that if you put the knockdown shooters around Melo, he'll find the open man if doubled/receives help. I'm not as confident in Amare's ability to kick to the open guy when he is doubled or receives help. He has shown a propensity to force up shots or turn the ball over when doubled and tripled even.

Getting CP3 would eliminate much of the need for Amare and Melo to facilitate.

It would allow them to do what they do, but in easier fashion as they'd benefit from the attention CP3 garners.

By having a guy like CP3 who can break down your defense at will, but also has the supreme vision and passing to find the open man easily, Amare's and Melo's games could flourish and flow in a more relaxed fashion.

In other words, CP3 would make them better. That's a scary thought.

Defensively I've been saying all along that our team would benefit from having a defensive assistant.

Add CP3 along w better defensive scheme focus and that could result in significant improvement.

Adding CP3 will not only boost our offense tremendously and make it one of the best, if not the best in the NBA, it will improve our defense. The guy gets what 2 or 3 steals a night? A player like Paul is exactly what we need. He will not only get the offense going, but he will get the defense going as well.

Incase y'all forgot...

CP3 owning the Lakers pretty much by himself in Game 1 of these Playoffs!

Just brilliant stuff here..

http://youtu.be/IVosM5foJxs

We need this guy.

ronoranina said:

Defensively I've been saying all along that our team would benefit from having a defensive assistant.

Add CP3 along w better defensive scheme focus and that could result in significant improvement.

Click to expand...

I'm with you all the way on CP3. No doubt we'd be better. But just adding a defensive assistant isnt going to work. He wont have final say. That means MDA picks who plays. Those that dont get used "REALLY" dont get used. Him having final say doesnt do the Knicks any good at all.

This is what we need in a coach:

Top 8 quotes about Jimmer Fredette from the NBA All-Star Weekend
Compiled by Joseph D’Hippolito

Associated Press
# 2 - Doc Rivers, Boston Celtics coach on Jimmer
I love him. He's terrific. I've seen the ESPN clips and going by the clips, he's a superstar. The kid's going to be a good NBA player. We get lost in what kids can't do and we should focus more on the things they can do and try to accent that. He can get his own shot.

I want to repeat what every great coach thinks about players, unlike MDA.

We get lost in what kids can't do and we should focus more on the things they can do and try to accent that.


You think MDA can adhere to a philosphy like this? He hasnt yet and I dont think he can...

I think we could use a coaching change...

That being said I could imagine a CP3-Melo-STAT trio winning 70 games in D'Antoni's system...Steve Nash ran this system to average 12 assists...CP3 is better than him, CP3 plays defense...

STAT1 said:

Yes very true, but neither of them are ball facilitators, they don't really create shots for others on their team. That's why I think CP3 is imperative, especially w/this head coach, who has never had any run of success without an MVP calibre PG with elite passing skills running his speedball style of game.

Click to expand...

See, i told you. This CP3 sh*t is about D'Antoni and running a flawed offensive system.

something I call brain-washing.

I got news for you, unless D'Antoni miraculously learns defense, he won't be here.

ronoranina said:

First of all D. Rose is not CP3. In Miami, Rose ran up against a better team and better players. Wade and Bron are both better than him. With CP3, we'd have a player, who like Wade is just a notch below Lebron who is the best player in the game currently. To me, CP3 is also just slightly better than Wade.

Click to expand...

Huh? I respect your opinion but i disagree. Not only do they play 2 different positions but look at Wades resume, it includes

2006 NBA Finals
In his first trip to the NBA Finals, in which Miami faced off against the Dallas Mavericks, Wade had some especially memorable moments. His performance in games three, four, and five, in which he scored 42, 36, and 43 points,[25][26] respectively, helped bring the Heat back from a 0?2 deficit to lead the series at 3 games to 2. In Game 3 Wade tied his career playoff high with 42 points and grabbed a career high 13 rebounds.[27] 15 of his 42 points came in the fourth quarter, in which the Heat erased a 13 point deficit over the final 6:29 with a 22?7 run which included a go-ahead jumper by NBA veteran Gary Payton that sealed the win.[28] The Heat went on to win Game 6 behind Wade's 36 points, taking the series 4?2, and Wade was presented with the Finals MVP trophy.[29] He became the fifth youngest player in NBA history to capture NBA Finals MVP honors and recorded the third highest scoring average by a player in his first NBA Finals with 34.7 points per game.[13][30] His 33.8 PER in the NBA finals was ranked by ESPN's John Hollinger as the greatest Finals performance since the NBA-ABA merger.[31]

Click to expand...

C'mon man.

and about me asking what can CP3 do that Chauncey or Felton can't considering we have Melo & Stat.
I think you missed the point, that being Stat & Melo are socrers. A True pass first PG is all thats needed (who plays defense) and there are plenty. Why sacrifice the big man thats needed for an expensive PG who does what many other can do plus score when we don't need more scoring?

Thats counterintuitive.

Are you seriously asking this question??

In CP3 we'd have a guy who could easily average 10-12 assists, 3-4 steals, shoot 48-50% from the field and 40% from three point range.. Neither Billups nor Felton or any other point guard in the league can do all of the things I just listed night in and night out, all while bringing rare leadership qualities that cannot be quantified, but have a real, profound effect on a game and the man's teammates.

Amare and Melo would have it EASY. They'd have the great point guard of this generation to lead them, dish to them and take over games at will if need be..



No this my attempt to advocate for us getting the best PG since Isiah Thomas and Magic Johnson.

MDA's offense works well w a solid PG like Felton or Billups. The team numbers bare this out. But his offense flies off the damn charts and becomes a serious problem w someone like Paul or Nash at the PG position.

Click to expand...

Exactly my point, this is about Mike D'Antoni, and can't possibly be about objective analysis and savvy. Why?

Well first off it's obvious as you say you're a supporter.
2nd, when analyzing our stat's we see 2nd IN OFFENSE, 28th IN DEFENSE! and thats with a combo of Billups and Felton.

Why would an objective thinker see these stats and believe "taking the offense to another level (1)" is the answer?

Answer: Because that subjective thinker is brainwashed into believing this system works, and totally neglects to consider all the facts that make this viewpoint wrong.

*With a 2 time MVP this system failed to address and be successful on defense (and that goes back to PHX)
*With 2 scoring proficient players (even 1 at a time), this system was #2 in offense and was worst in many defensive categories.
*by acquiring another max we can't address what the stats bare out- quality Center, Depth, defensive help

Every coach needs certain ingredients Red. MDA is no different. To have MDA as coach and not want for him to have what would make us all the more unstoppable seems counter-intuitive, no?

That said, I want the Knicks to acquire Paul whether MDA is the coach or not.

HE WILL GIVE US THE NUCLEUS WE NEED TO TAKE MIAMI DOWN.

Click to expand...

Yes, wanting Paul is one thing. It's your argument that's flawed. It puts your personal preference before analysis, and it concludes in ill faded decisions.

Mike D'Antoni has no support in the front office. The media as well are turning on him. He's not in Kansas anymore, there is no hiding his deficiencies around here.

What Mike needs (and we can all argue that) player wise has been shown to be next to impossible to get, too risky to get, and neglects what the majority feel really is wrong with this team. Part of that being Mike himself, his style, and his decisions.

CP3 address none of those, unless we want to say it steps up the perimeter defense, but many cheaper options do as well, and provide opportunity to gain size and depth.

again, when we brake down your reasoning for wanting CP3 it's clear
*you're a fan
* you support MDA
Therefore you'd rather address your personal desires than do what's best for the team- just like MDA

Tell us besides how good CP3 is, WHY WE NEED HIM? if thats your stance, ok then objectively break it down, analyze, and show us various points as to why the Knicks NEED CP3. We all WANT him, duh he's good and better than what we have

but an objective analysis encompasses multi-facets

Our Current roster, current stats, and historic proof have to be considered. Make an argument as to why CP3 will fix the issues in comparison to adding Size and depth to convince us,

if not you are a fan blowing steam up our asses, hell-bent to field a team that please you but isn't well thought out complete with alternatives.

Yeah, it's taught me that having a deep, defensive oriented team, w one All-Star/ Superstar type player is not enough against Miami to get out of the Eastern Conference.




In looking at our team, I just feel that we need that extra touch of greatness for Amare and Melo to reach their full potential together. It may get better, but I don't think they mesh all that well out on the court together. CP3 would maximize their chemistry creating balance and uncontrollable unpredictability.

But..

Between the three of them I think we'd see a brand of prolificness that would shock the league for a period. All of my basketball instincts tell me that the three of them together would be something different, something special.

Maybe it can't or won't happen for now obvious reasons (new CBA!!!), but I want this for my Knick team. I want us to be as great a team as we can be. Getting CP3 seems to me to be the way to get there.

We have to see how the new CBA shakes out before any of us can say definitively what kind of cap problems getting him will create.

I also believe we'll take a couple of bigs in this years draft to go along with what we have to hold down the middle. I'm not so much worried about who we have at center as how many guys we can throw out there that can rebound and block shots. All we need are rebounders and shot blockers who can finish the odd put back or easy lay-in off a dish/doubleteam to go along w Amare.




The point Red, is that we have Melo and Amare. Judging by what Miami was able to do against the team with the best record in the East this season, I just think we need to go for the jugular and get Paul here, if it's feasible/possible.

Also, Chicago had really good front-line players. They were deep and skilled at the 4 &5. The had Boozer, Asik, Gibson, Noah and my boy Kurt Thomas.

Chicago also lead the league in defense:

Opp PTS/G: 91.3 (2nd of 30)

Def Rtg/ efficiency: 100.3 (1st of 30)

In looking at the above one can deduce that Chicago had one of the deepest, best frontlines in the NBA AND one of best defenses AND the league MVP.. and still lost against Miami.

Hence the creation of this thread born from a deeper understanding of what it will take to get past the Heat.

The Finals will produce more valuable lessons.

Because of the above, I will continue to promulgate the notion that we need as many great players as it is possible to attain, CP3 in particular. And in the case of this team and this coach, a great, HOF PG would certainly not be a bad thing.



No Red,

This thread is me simply stating my belief that CP3 is the answer going forward if we want to contend in an East Conf that has a dominating team like the Heat.

Also, I don't need to beat around the bush re: my support of MDA. Anybody who reads my posts can easily ascertain where I stand.

Click to expand...

Your fervor underscores another point. We are dealing with the unknown. Just as you were tired of myself and others repeating Fire D'antoni, it is hypocritical of you to constantly repeat your feelings on Paul every chance, especially void of objective analysis.

This is amplified by the unknown. It takes one line, one sig to say you support CP3. Without knowing if it's even a possibility it screams desperation to constantly repeat this knowing so much can affect this. So stop, we already know who and why you want him.

If we look just at the Bulls:

1. I said I didn't think they were that strong, #1 seed or not. They lack clutch scoring and that permeates in the playoffs, something everyone seems to forget until Apr-Jun.

2. I disagreed that Rose was the league MVP, and he may be one of the best, but IMO he wasn't the best, so people were gassed.

3. While Noah and Boozer are good, they are very limited. One can't score, the other can't play effective defense, although the Bulls as a team can.

That said, we can't say we saw how MIA beat a great team in the Bulls because they lack the components that make a team great in the playoffs.

We on the other hand are in a different boat. We HAVE scorers. We even have a facilitator. We have NO SIZE and DEPTH.

I include Landry Fields with missing depth as well as our Center and bench, because again we already have Scoring options. We NEED players at the 2 and 5 that do everything but score primarily. 50/50 balls, screens, defense, rebounds, box out, etc...

Research those true Centers that do this, and the pattern seems that they are not cheap. EVEN MOZGOV cost $9MIL!!!!! (3per)

You start adding a knock down shooter (unless you feel Fields is that), quality bench players, and the UNKNOWN money wise and bam!

We can't make any valid argument (besides his skills are to our liking) as to why CP3 clamoring needs anymore attention. Its wishful thinking at best. But I've yet to see a non-personal, valid, stat driven argument that supports this cacophony of "we need CP3" posters.

Make a valid, wholistic argument to support your ideas or save us the trouble and put it in a sig, then keep it moving.

The rest just looks emotional. Tell us how CP3 takes us from 28th in defense, last in points per on D, and into the top ten on defense.

Honestly, I would rather focus on getting a very very good center. Maybe not D12 but someone very good.

CP3's skill set can be replicated...Melo-Amare-Great Center can turn an above average PG into a very very very good PG. CP3-Melo-Amare does not turn an above average center into a very very very good center.

KBlack25 said:

Honestly, I would rather focus on getting a very very good center. Maybe not D12 but someone very good.

CP3's skill set can be replicated...Melo-Amare-Great Center can turn an above average PG into a very very very good PG. CP3-Melo-Amare does not turn an above average center into a very very very good center.

Click to expand...

My point put succinctly.
CP3 is a great player, but not what we "need". He's too expensive and doesn't address our weaknesses. We can't confuse what we want, would like, and need.

The stats bare we need size for rebounding and defense. We are hoping D'antoni provides help there too by strategizing. We were 2nd in offense while transitioning with 2 seperate pg's limited in their own right.

An upgrade is warranted at other more prioritized deficient positions before addressing pg, especially an expensive one. To anticipate acquiring a max PG given our current 2max roster and changes in the CBA is not smart.

We should plan for the worse cap wise and strategically. We NEED the best/least-expensive CENTER we can find and have depth needs after that. A formidable and dubious task to accomplish to say the least.

By stating we "need" a max point before acknowledging those eminent realistic concerns that are directly related to what the stats say, we are just stating no more than wishful thinking.

Now let's realistically and strategically get back to business. We should pray we somehow draft a starting center, because if not, it might be Samuel Dalembert or Jeff Foster in the trenches come next Apr.

you still don't understand smh..

Red said:

See, i told you. This CP3 sh*t is about D'Antoni and running a flawed offensive system.

something I call brain-washing.

I got news for you, unless D'Antoni miraculously learns defense, he won't be here.

Click to expand...

To you and many MDA runs a flawed system. I too think that playing an inside-out, half-court type of game is the more tried and true philosophy re: offense. I do like his brand of ball however and I KNOW it can work w the right players, ie a a great pass-first PG, knock down shooters and a bigman who can finish in transition and off the pick and roll.

That said we have MDA. Whether I or you like, or totally agree w his offensive system or not, it behooves this front office to get players in here that are conducive to the system he uses. If this comes off as a veiled attempted at supporting our coach so be it. All I want is for us to have the best players possible because I know that the best grouping of players usually ends up winning a chip.

Red said:

Huh? I respect your opinion but i disagree. Not only do they play 2 different positions but look at Wades resume, it includes


C'mon man.

and about me asking what can CP3 do that Chauncey or Felton can't considering we have Melo & Stat.
I think you missed the point, that being Stat & Melo are socrers. A True pass first PG is all thats needed (who plays defense) and there are plenty. Why sacrifice the big man thats needed for an expensive PG who does what many other can do plus score when we don't need more scoring?

Thats counterintuitive.

Click to expand...

You say CP3 does what others can do. But that is simply not the case Red.

He does MUCH more than other PG's. You know this. That is not a valid arguement.

I pointed this out in my last response to you. Here:


In CP3 we'd have a guy who could easily average 10-12 assists, 3-4 steals, shoot 48-50% from the field and 40% from three point range.. Neither Billups nor Felton or any other point guard in the league can do all of the things I just listed night in and night out, all while bringing rare leadership qualities that cannot be quantified, but have a real, profound effect on a game and the man's teammates.

Amare and Melo would have it EASY. They'd have the great point guard of this generation to lead them, dish to them and take over games at will if need be..


CP3 is head and shoulders above any other PG you will find in the draft or any place else. You either underestimate or don't fully understand what he would bring to this team.

Red said:

Exactly my point, this is about Mike D'Antoni, and can't possibly be about objective analysis and savvy. Why?

Well first off it's obvious as you say you're a supporter.
2nd, when analyzing our stat's we see 2nd IN OFFENSE, 28th IN DEFENSE! and thats with a combo of Billups and Felton.

Why would an objective thinker see these stats and believe "taking the offense to another level (1)" is the answer?

Answer: Because that subjective thinker is brainwashed into believing this system works, and totally neglects to consider all the facts that make this viewpoint wrong.

*With a 2 time MVP this system failed to address and be successful on defense (and that goes back to PHX)
*With 2 scoring proficient players (even 1 at a time), this system was #2 in offense and was worst in many defensive categories.
*by acquiring another max we can't address what the stats bare out- quality Center, Depth, defensive help

Click to expand...

Yes I want the offense to be as good as it can be. Even though we were second in pts/gm w Billups and Felton this season, we did so while not really being at our full potential. We couldn't really depend on our offense night in and night out for W's. With knock down shooters and the great PG like MDA had in Phoenix we could consistently lean on our offense w that pick your poison style we're seeing in Dallas that is so effective. This is what MDA had in Phoenix and it's the reason why he was so successful inspite of having a team that played average defense. As long as MDA is the coach this is the direction we need to go in. Not saying it's the most tried and true means to win, but it's what we're working w now. It is not counter-intuitive to work within the confines of what you have w re: to our coach and his system.

And yes MDA had a 2 time MVP. But how do you address the fact that he and Amare are not great both ways? Nash and Amare are and weren't good defenders. I continue to make this cogent point w regards to the limitations there were in Phoenix because of this fact and yet you continue to disregard it.

YOU CAN'T HAVE A TOP RATED TEAM IN DEF EFFICIENCY WHEN YOUR TWO BEST, MOST INTEGRAL PLAYERS ARE DEFICIENT DEFENSIVELY.

Those guys had to be on the floor for 35-40 min a night. How can you say that didn't affect the defense?

The fact he was able to get them to 15th in def eff w those two guys is actually pretty good IMO.

And the system does work Red. Just because the philosophy rubs you the wrong way, doesn't make it any less effective w the right ingredients. It can work well. .

Red said:

Yes, wanting Paul is one thing. It's your argument that's flawed. It puts your personal preference before analysis, and it concludes in ill faded decisions.

Mike D'Antoni has no support in the front office. The media as well are turning on him. He's not in Kansas anymore, there is no hiding his deficiencies around here.

What Mike needs (and we can all argue that) player wise has been shown to be next to impossible to get, too risky to get, and neglects what the majority feel really is wrong with this team. Part of that being Mike himself, his style, and his decisions.

CP3 address none of those, unless we want to say it steps up the perimeter defense, but many cheaper options do as well, and provide opportunity to gain size and depth.

again, when we brake down your reasoning for wanting CP3 it's clear
*you're a fan
* you support MDA
Therefore you'd rather address your personal desires than do what's best for the team- just like MDA

Tell us besides how good CP3 is, WHY WE NEED HIM? if thats your stance, ok then objectively break it down, analyze, and show us various points as to why the Knicks NEED CP3. We all WANT him, duh he's good and better than what we have

but an objective analysis encompasses multi-facets

Our Current roster, current stats, and historic proof have to be considered. Make an argument as to why CP3 will fix the issues in comparison to adding Size and depth to convince us,

if not you are a fan blowing steam up our asses, hell-bent to field a team that please you but isn't well thought out complete with alternatives.

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Red, adding CP3 is like adding Magic Johnson or Isiah Thomas to your team.

Do I really need to explain to you what a player of that caliber brings to the table?

If I do then I shouldn't even be arguing w you.

You're missing the point. Telling you how good CP3 is, as well as what I think he would bring to this team is what matters most. What matters most is how this thing will play out on the court. You fail to understand this. CP3 would make our team immeasurably better. Much more so than any 3 mil dollar big.

If you don't want to buy what I'm selling that's on you, but all it does is highlight a serious deficit of understanding w re: to how getting player of his ilk to run w Melo and Amare would be so utterly devastating to the league and ultimately Miami, who we need to contend against for years to come.

Red said:

Your fervor underscores another point. We are dealing with the unknown. Just as you were tired of myself and others repeating Fire D'antoni, it is hypocritical of you to constantly repeat your feelings on Paul every chance, especially void of objective analysis.

This is amplified by the unknown. It takes one line, one sig to say you support CP3. Without knowing if it's even a possibility it screams desperation to constantly repeat this knowing so much can affect this. So stop, we already know who and why you want him.

If we look just at the Bulls:

1. I said I didn't think they were that strong, #1 seed or not. They lack clutch scoring and that permeates in the playoffs, something everyone seems to forget until Apr-Jun.

2. I disagreed that Rose was the league MVP, and he may be one of the best, but IMO he wasn't the best, so people were gassed.

3. While Noah and Boozer are good, they are very limited. One can't score, the other can't play effective defense, although the Bulls as a team can.

That said, we can't say we saw how MIA beat a great team in the Bulls because they lack the components that make a team great in the playoffs.

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How hypocritical you sound now Red.. Chicago is the type of team you complained we don't have all year. They have a collection of bigs who are very talented, they play excellent defense, and they have a coach who stresses defense... AND THEY COULDN'T GET IT DONE AGAINST MIAMI. Now this is still the type of team YOU want us to have here in NY.

To see you now give excuses as to why they aren't good enough to beat Miami highlights that old commentary of you and others from Kblack, "When we win it's the coach and when we lose it's the players.", SMH. Geez that couldn't have been more on cue.

Noah is a very good defensive center and rebounder. Boozer is a solid scorer in this league. Thibs defense is top notch. AND Rose is the MVP of the league. AND they have depth w Asik, Gibson and Thomas.

Now I'm going to say this again and see if it takes this time, or if it's lost on you AGAIN:

CHICAGO LOST TO A BETTER TEAM W BETTER PLAYERS.

The best grouping of players wins in the playoffs. I think Miami will find away to win in the Finals also. History tends to repeat itself this way, but we'll see..

That said , we need to assemble a our own big three if it is possible to take them down. I believe it will be the best way to get by Miami.

Red said:

We on the other hand are in a different boat. We HAVE scorers. We even have a facilitator. We have NO SIZE and DEPTH.

I include Landry Fields with missing depth as well as our Center and bench, because again we already have Scoring options. We NEED players at the 2 and 5 that do everything but score primarily. 50/50 balls, screens, defense, rebounds, box out, etc...

Research those true Centers that do this, and the pattern seems that they are not cheap. EVEN MOZGOV cost $9MIL!!!!! (3per)

You start adding a knock down shooter (unless you feel Fields is that), quality bench players, and the UNKNOWN money wise and bam!

We can't make any valid argument (besides his skills are to our liking) as to why CP3 clamoring needs anymore attention. Its wishful thinking at best. But I've yet to see a non-personal, valid, stat driven argument that supports this cacophony of "we need CP3" posters.

Make a valid, wholistic argument to support your ideas or save us the trouble and put it in a sig, then keep it moving.

The rest just looks emotional. Tell us how CP3 takes us from 28th in defense, last in points per on D, and into the top ten on defense.

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If it can work financially somehow we need to make that deal for CP3 and then worry about getting other stop gap players as Miami has.

As Miami has shown us you can get away with having vet minimum types, solid defense and 3 stars

Why can't we do the same? IF, and this is a big if, as I now fully understand how the stars have to align for us to get PAUL, we can get him somehow WE HAVE TO DO IT. Miami as proven that they are the team to beat in the East for yrs to come and honestly IMO they will fine-tune their roster and become even better.

This is why we need that 3rd max. I'm sorry Red, but this wholistically makes the most sense if you understand what it takes to win on the court. You have to build your team to beat the best. That's why we could never get past the Bulls in the 90's. We didn't have enough star power. At the moment, I do not believe we have enough to beat Miami in a playoff series. One 3-7 million dollar true center will not get us there. And as they continue to retool we will have to aswell. Getting CP3 is the next logical step.

Defensively having a player like Paul just makes sense. He IS a two-way player unlike Nash as I pointed out above. This will help our defense. He also averages 3-4 steals a game which would lead to more easy transition baskets. He would help immensely with his mindset and leadership also. He would demand that Amare, Melo and others be there when they are supposed to help. Having him would minimize breakdowns as he would just not allow guys to lose focus or not give max effort. He's one of those guys that teammates fear. He is a dog in that way, like your Magics and your Jordans. So he would help us that way also.

The above is my defensive analysis of Paul is based on what I've seen from him since he came in to the league Red. I really intuitively understand what it is I'm seeing on the court. You don't have to trust it, but that doesn't mean i'm not right on.

KBlack25 said:

Honestly, I would rather focus on getting a very very good center. Maybe not D12 but someone very good.

CP3's skill set can be replicated...Melo-Amare-Great Center can turn an above average PG into a very very very good PG. CP3-Melo-Amare does not turn an above average center into a very very very good center.

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I don't buy into that argument that putting great players around a PG somehow turns them into a better PG, like people think happened w Rondo.

You either have it or you don't. Rondo is special. So is Paul. They bring what they bring and other PG's can't just easily replicate it as you say.

ronoranina said:

I don't by into that argument that putting great players around a PG somehow turns them into a better PG, like people think happened w Rondo.

You either have it or you don't. Rondo is special. So is Paul. They bring what they bring and other PG's can't just easily replicate that as you say.

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It comes down to what your role is...

CP3's role on this team with Amare and Melo would be to make sure Amare and Melo are in position to get the best chance to score...I think an above average PG can do that adequately because of Amare and Melo's strong skills.

Don't get me wrong, if we got CP3 I would be ecstatic...but it is not necessarily what we need immediately.

KBlack25 said:

It comes down to what your role is...

CP3's role on this team with Amare and Melo would be to make sure Amare and Melo are in position to get the best chance to score...I think an above average PG can do that adequately because of Amare and Melo's strong skills.

Don't get me wrong, if we got CP3 I would be ecstatic...but it is not necessarily what we need immediately.

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Well we have Billups for now so yea, but my point is that we'll need CP3 eventually if we want to beat Miami.

Addressing our immediate needs for bigs and acquiring some run o' the mill PG will not get us all the way there IMO.

MY MAJOR CONCERN


can cp3 stay healthy or could this be another brandon roy with the knees?


d12 has been pretty healthy.....fact

if cp3 had a healthy history....... id probably lean more into his favor..

I think with either player, we would be fine. If we get CP3 we would need a solid big man, which we can get. If we get d12 we need a solid pg, we we can get.

I think either way we would be set. I still think we would need a more defensive minded approach to our system.

My worry is the chemistry between STAT and D12. The sacrafices on their part would be so major that it would not justfy the being paid the max.

Hey I could be wrong we could probably see something truly special. But CP3 here would actually improve chemistry and with a solid big man we would do fine.

Either way we would be fine.