Layden vs. Isiah - who was worse?

SSj4Wingzero · May 19, 2010

Let's chronicle their bad moves:

Layden:

-Traded Ewing (necessary, but probably the beginning of the end for our franchise)
-Re-Signing H20 to that MASSIVE contract
-Trading Glen Rice and Muggsy Bogues for Howard Eisley and Shandon Anderson and their terrible contracts
-Trading Nene, Marcus Camby and Mark Jackson for Antonio McDyess
-Terrible draft choices (other than Nene too bad he was traded for McDyess)

Isiah:

-Traded for Stephon Marbury losing draft picks and signing him to an extension
-Trading for Eddy Curry
-Jamal Crawford
-Steve Franchise
-Z-Bo
-Picking up contracts like those of Penny Hardaway, Jerome Williams, Maurice Taylor
-Renaldo Balkman (could've had Rondo)
-Trading Trevor Ariza
-Trading Channing Frye
-Sexual Harassment lawsuit
-Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, etc.

However, it must be said that Isiah was a pretty good drafter all things considered.

So...tough one?

yankeesjetsfan · May 19, 2010

Since I can't vote, I'll just say I think Thomas was. Dispite the draft picks, he made a lot of moves I just couldnt figure out.

As far as Layden trading Ewing, I remember alot of fans complaining that Ewing had become a liabilty on the court and I guess Layden agreed.

LJ4ptplay · May 19, 2010

Isiah's drafting wasn't as great as some would like to think. Lee was a great pick but other than that, not so good. Frye at #8 is questionable.

But Balkman?? Can't even get off the bench. Drafted ahead of Rondo too.

Nate?? Can't get off the bench either.

We only thought he drafted well because they got playing time on a really, really bad team. Most of them were bench players at best.

SSj4Wingzero · May 19, 2010

Frye wasn't a bad pick, look at how he's doing with the Suns, he could probably be a starter on many teams (including ours).

Wilson Chandler was also a pretty decent pick.

All things considered Isiah wasn't a bad drafted at least. He didn't really have too many Michael Sweetney and Frederic Weis and whatnot picks

Kiyaman · May 19, 2010

Damntoni should be top name on the list

Damntoni was the worst of the two ..... Walsh always gave his headcoaches 85% of the decision-making when it came to the players, whether it was drafts, trades, or signings.
The reason why Dunleavy, Bird, and Isiah went from coach to G.M..

Each of Isiah's seasons I criticize him bad on his trades (#1 basher), luv his draft picks, but after it was all over with his departure (I dont want him back ever) I must admit each offseason Isiah's decision-making hyped-up 85% of Knick fans to be optimistic like they are now for this 2010 Plan.
From adding Zach, to defensive 6.11 Jefferies, to Curry, Davis, James, and Q.Rich, to Crawford.

TR1LL10N · May 19, 2010

Kiyaman said:
Damntoni was the worst of the two ..... Walsh always gave his headcoaches 85% of the decision-making when it came to the players, whether it was drafts, trades, or signings.
The reason why Dunleavy, Bird, and Isiah went from coach to G.M..

Each of Isiah's seasons I criticize him bad on his trades (#1 basher), luv his draft picks, but after it was all over with his departure (I dont want him back ever) I must admit each offseason Isiah's decision-making hyped-up 85% of Knick fans to be optimistic like they are now for this 2010 Plan.
From adding Zach, to defensive 6.11 Jefferies, to Curry, Davis, James, and Q.Rich, to Crawford.

You do know that this thread is comparing GM's not coaches..right? Do we really have to see another D'ant rant? Honestly...

BTW, Damntoni is a horrible play on words and does not make people who use it look witty...especially if they weren't even the one who made it up to begin with.

metrocard · May 19, 2010

You guys already know how I feel about this.
If you don't check my created thread history from two years ago.

abcd · May 21, 2010

Kiyaman said:
Damntoni was the worst of the two ..... Walsh always gave his headcoaches 85% of the decision-making when it came to the players, whether it was drafts, trades, or signings.
The reason why Dunleavy, Bird, and Isiah went from coach to G.M..

Each of Isiah's seasons I criticize him bad on his trades (#1 basher), luv his draft picks, but after it was all over with his departure (I dont want him back ever) I must admit each offseason Isiah's decision-making hyped-up 85% of Knick fans to be optimistic like they are now for this 2010 Plan.
From adding Zach, to defensive 6.11 Jefferies, to Curry, Davis, James, and Q.Rich, to Crawford.

I agree. Mike D'Antoni is trash. He needs to get fired ASAP.

Out of Scott Layden and Isiah Thomas, it's hard to say who's worse.

I guess I would have to go with Isiah Thomas, ONLY because he traded way more draft picks than Layden.

The Tim Thomas, Michael Sweetney, Jermaine Jackson, 2006 first round pick, 2007 first round pick, 2008 second round pick, and 2009 second round pick for Eddy Curry and Antonio Davis has to be one of the worst trades of the decade, and a top 3 worst trade in franchise history.

Donnie Walsh did a good job in Indiana, but he's done a s#!tty job in New York, thus far.

TR1LL10N · May 21, 2010

This is tough and I think it's almost a tie. I think Layden was slightly worse because he could have taken the team in a totally different direction. He could have let contracts come off the books but he decided to trade for overpaid and over the hill players which started us down this disastrous path.

While I am no where close to a Thomas fan I see his moves as a bit more out of necessity to get something done with what he was handed. Layden passed off a real shitty situation and Thomas could have down what Walsh did. I don't think their was a mandate at that point nor do I think the fans would have put up with a long term plan like the one Walsh pursued since we had not yet hit rock bottom. This lead Thomas to make poor decisions trying to turn lemons into lemonade.

So both were terrible and their combined efforts have set us back many years including some upcoming draft picks that were traded in order to get out from under some of these contracts.

Kiyaman · May 21, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
You do know that this thread is comparing GM's not coaches..right? Do we really have to see another D'ant rant? Honestly...

BTW, Damntoni is a horrible play on words and does not make people who use it look witty...especially if they weren't even the one who made it up to begin with.

Read carefully before responding or commenting on, are u Dan Dantoni (taking up for your brother)

Walsh always gave his headcoaches 85% of the decision-making when it came to the players, whether it was drafts, trades, or signings.
The reason why Dunleavy, Bird, and Isiah went from coach to G.M..

TR1LL1ON.... read the above four times for comprehension

TR1LL10N · May 21, 2010

Kiyaman said:
Read carefully before responding or commenting on, are u Dan Dantoni (taking up for your brother)

Walsh always gave his headcoaches 85% of the decision-making when it came to the players, whether it was drafts, trades, or signings.
The reason why Dunleavy, Bird, and Isiah went from coach to G.M..

TR1LL1ON.... read the above four times for comprehension

You display your ignorance with each post you make...

1. You are pulling that stat about Walsh out of your ass.
2. This was a comparison of two GM's and had nothing to do with Mike D'antoni.
3. Walsh did not hire or have anything to do with Layden or Thomas.
4.This thread has nothing to do with Walsh therefore your fictitious stat about Walsh is irrelevant even if it were some how true.

Why do you even bother? You come on here spewing made up stats and wild eyed conspiracy theories in almost every thread. You barley make any sense, never stay on topic and your writing skills are atrocious. Stop worrying about D'antoni and do a little bit more worrying about yourself...you are clearly unstable.

You have clearly mastered the font color, size and bold options on this forum so you should move on and try and master writing, reading comprehension and the game of basketball now. One step at a time baby...

Kiyaman · May 21, 2010

Lets get this right

TR1LL10N said:
This is tough and I think it's almost a tie. I think Layden was slightly worse because he could have taken the team in a totally different direction. He could have let contracts come off the books but he decided to trade for overpaid and over the hill players which started us down this disastrous path.

While I am no where close to a Thomas fan I see his moves as a bit more out of necessity to get something done with what he was handed. Layden passed off a real shitty situation and Thomas could have down what Walsh did. I don't think their was a mandate at that point nor do I think the fans would have put up with a long term plan like the one Walsh pursued since we had not yet hit rock bottom. This lead Thomas to make poor decisions trying to turn lemons into lemonade.

So both were terrible and their combined efforts have set us back many years including some upcoming draft picks that were traded in order to get out from under some of these contracts.

Trading Ewing, Camby, and Sprewell were owner Dolan's doing.
Giving Allan Houston that huge contract was owner Dolan doing.
I never liked the idea of firing G.M. Ernie Grunfield, he was building a winning team. So I disliked Layden his first day on the job b/c all his contacts were in a small town state called Utah. The BIG-APPLE was to damn BIG for Layden to compete in (look where he's at now).

Layden's best roster was the one Isiah Thomas inherited from him.
It was a second round playoff roster as long as we didnt bumb into the Nets and Pistons in the first round.
Layden left Isiah a neuclus of playoff experience players in "Mutombo, K-Thomas, Mcdyess, KVH, Anderson, Houston, and Ward". It was their first season together to gain a team chemistry throughout the 82 game season.
We had assistant coach Tom Thibodeau Jellin our defensive players with a finest that had us start winning games on straight up DEFENSE when they finally decided the starting-5 of the Knicks. Headcoach Don Chaney had his first chance in a season with healthy players to develope all the role-players on the Knick bench.

The hiring of Isiah Thomas and the way Isiah fired headcoach Don Chaney after the Knicks just came off a 4 game defensive winning streak (over Red Holzman Grizz 98-94, Heat 100-80, Magic 114-86, Heat 102-73) with a Knick record of 14-19. Isiah Thomas started his crazy trading of players for Norris, Marbury, and Penny, and 5 days after the 4 game winning streak Norris & Marbury were the Knicks starters (2 nondefensive players). And non defensive Tim Thomas who average 3 rebounds a game came 2 weeks later in a trade for KVH who was averaging 20-8-5 alongside of Mutombo, K.Thomas, Houston, Anderson, and Ward.

Isiah Thomas became the Knicks biggest problem with winning his first two months on the job...

Kiyaman · May 21, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
You display your ignorance with each post you make...

1. You are pulling that stat about Walsh out of your ass.
2. This was a comparison of two GM's and had nothing to do with Mike D'antoni.
3. Walsh did not hire or have anything to do with Layden or Thomas.
4.This thread has nothing to do with Walsh therefore your fictitious stat about Walsh is irrelevant even if it were some how true.

Why do you even bother? You come on here spewing made up stats and wild eyed conspiracy theories in almost every thread. You barley make any sense, never stay on topic and your writing skills are atrocious. Stop worrying about D'antoni and do a little bit more worrying about yourself...you are clearly unstable.

You have clearly mastered the font color, size and bold options on this forum so you should move on and try and master writing, reading comprehension and the game of basketball now. One step at a time baby...

If u cant read my shit than why do u always answer my shit.....are u a fly

TR1LL10N · May 21, 2010

Kiyaman said:
If u cant read my shit than why do u always answer my shit.....are u a fly

What does this even mean? How did I not read your shit? How was your critique on D'ant relevant to this thread? Do you have proof of the 85% stat you referenced? Do you have proof it was DOlan and not Layden orchestrating those trades? Doubt it...

JUNIOR MINT · May 21, 2010

Layden easily. Isiah made all those moves because he tried to fix Layden's problems. Only move Isiah ****ed up was trading Frye for ZBo, when he (Frye) had a great rookie year IMO and all star potential. Jerome James was a bad signing too of course but back then at that time there weren't that many big men and he had a great playoff performance.

We didn't have to trade Ewing, he was still servicable some what, plus a young Camby who's a great rebounding/ shot blocker to go along with a young Nene, he would have been our 4 with Camby at the 5, them growing together and that right there could/ would have been a top 5 or even 3 front court. Who knows how we could have turned out if we had those players. Layden ****ed us badly

jpz17 · May 21, 2010

pick your poison, but I say Layden. There was a real nice article way back on Knicksonline about this.....

mafra · May 21, 2010

I would give it to Scott Layden, because he was most responsible for derailing the rebuilding era post Patrick Ewing.

First, I'll say you should give him props for having the courage to sign Latrell Sprewell, but still... Spree fell in his lap after his 4-by-4 tirade!

Layden replaced interim GM Ed Tapscott. People forget about this tool, and his lone act as a GM is almost personally responsible for most of our woes today.... The Freddy Weiss selection! To recap how badly that hurt the Knicks....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Tapscott

He drafted Frederick Weiss. This in and of itself gives SL the pathetic award. EVERYONE was rooting for local ST JOHN'S player, Ron Artest. Instead, we take this dork? To make it even worse, in the 2nd round we select J.R. Koch.... 11 picks later the Spurs take Manu Ginobili.

This is who you screw up a rebuilding effort. 11 years later the Manu-Artest combo are helping teams win. They would have been sweet building blocks.

SO, folks.... this is almost texbook 101 how to boner-up a rebuilding plan.

Enter Layden.... Trading Ewing was SO STUPID. We were 1 season away from cap relief... from being done with PE. I'm not saying you shouldn't deal him, but to bring in the idiots he did and to take on contracts... what was he thinking. This started a downward spiral that I-Thomas perfected into an art.... But Scott Layden got the ball rolling folks.

AND, not only do we trade Ewing, but we toss in our 2001 1st rounder as well. That pick could have ben Zach Randolph, Samuel Dalembert, Brandon Heywood, Gerald Wallace or Tony Parker.

Then Layden compounds the Weiss-Artest mistake in his first draft.... In the 2nd round of his 1st draft, the year after we pass on St John's star Artest, he decides to take the local St John's SG (Lavor Postell).... a few picks later the Bucks take SG Michael Redd.

The came the 2002 draft. More trades for bad contracts, and more passing on rebuilding through the draft. We take Nene, pass on Amare, and trade for the injured McDice. In the 2nd round, we draft a Yugo PG, who doesn't even want to come to USA.

Next year we take Sweetney over David West, but that's just luck of draft. The groundwork was already in place: forget about drafting players... keep bringing in bad contracts and hope for the best.

Buy the time IT arrived, all was screwed anyway. He just went for HRs instead of ripping things apart (trading for Marbury over signing Nash).

Kiyaman · May 22, 2010

mafra said:
I would give it to Scott Layden, because he was most responsible for derailing the rebuilding era post Patrick Ewing.

First, I'll say you should give him props for having the courage to sign Latrell Sprewell, but still... Spree fell in his lap after his 4-by-4 tirade!

Layden replaced interim GM Ed Tapscott. People forget about this tool, and his lone act as a GM is almost personally responsible for most of our woes today.... The Freddy Weiss selection! To recap how badly that hurt the Knicks....

He drafted Frederick Weiss. This in and of itself gives SL the pathetic award. EVERYONE was rooting for local ST JOHN'S player, Ron Artest. Instead, we take this dork? To make it even worse, in the 2nd round we select J.R. Koch.... 11 picks later the Spurs take Manu Ginobili.

This is who you screw up a rebuilding effort. 11 years later the Manu-Artest combo are helping teams win. They would have been sweet building blocks.

SO, folks.... this is almost texbook 101 how to boner-up a rebuilding plan.

Enter Layden.... Trading Ewing was SO STUPID. We were 1 season away from cap relief... from being done with PE. I'm not saying you shouldn't deal him, but to bring in the idiots he did and to take on contracts... what was he thinking. This started a downward spiral that I-Thomas perfected into an art.... But Scott Layden got the ball rolling folks.

AND, not only do we trade Ewing, but we toss in our 2001 1st rounder as well. That pick could have ben Zach Randolph, Samuel Dalembert, Brandon Heywood, Gerald Wallace or Tony Parker.

Then Layden compounds the Weiss-Artest mistake in his first draft.... In the 2nd round of his 1st draft, the year after we pass on St John's star Artest, he decides to take the local St John's SG (Lavor Postell).... a few picks later the Bucks take SG Michael Redd.

The came the 2002 draft. More trades for bad contracts, and more passing on rebuilding through the draft. We take Nene, pass on Amare, and trade for the injured McDice. In the 2nd round, we draft a Yugo PG, who doesn't even want to come to USA.

Next year we take Sweetney over David West, but that's just luck of draft. The groundwork was already in place: forget about drafting players... keep bringing in bad contracts and hope for the best.

Buy the time IT arrived, all was screwed anyway. He just went for HRs instead of ripping things apart (trading for Marbury over signing Nash).

I have to give it to u :agreed:
u get props for recalling all that, it was interim G.M. Tapscott that drafted Weiss over Artest, and traded Chris Childs to Toronto.
Layden was hired in July, the same time Patrick Ewing went to the media several times asking to be traded (an unemployed coach Patrick Ewing in 2005 told the media he would be happy to be an assistant coach to Herb Williams, as if owner Dolan forgot Ewing's action in the 1999 offseason).

Our best G.M. Ernie Grunfield who traded (Ewings best friends/teammates) Oakley & Starks for Camby & Sprewell in 1998 offseason. Grunfield had a problem with headcoach JVG DNP Camby and Sprewell throughout the 1998-99 lockout season which caused the two to get into a physical altercation with Ernie Grunfield getting fired and owner Dolan following the team to each game the rest of the season to make sure coach JVG give Camby & Spewell 30 minutes of playingtime.
The Knicks were the 11th team in the conference before Dolan attended every game, and made the 8th slot in the playoffs, knocking off the number #1 team Heat

metrocard · May 23, 2010

Kiyaman said:
Trading Ewing, Camby, and Sprewell were owner Dolan's doing.
Giving Allan Houston that huge contract was owner Dolan doing.
I never liked the idea of firing G.M. Ernie Grunfield, he was building a winning team. So I disliked Layden his first day on the job b/c all his contacts were in a small town state called Utah. The BIG-APPLE was to damn BIG for Layden to compete in (look where he's at now).

Layden's best roster was the one Isiah Thomas inherited from him.
It was a second round playoff roster as long as we didnt bumb into the Nets and Pistons in the first round.
Layden left Isiah a neuclus of playoff experience players in "Mutombo, K-Thomas, Mcdyess, KVH, Anderson, Houston, and Ward". It was their first season together to gain a team chemistry throughout the 82 game season.
We had assistant coach Tom Thibodeau Jellin our defensive players with a finest that had us start winning games on straight up DEFENSE when they finally decided the starting-5 of the Knicks. Headcoach Don Chaney had his first chance in a season with healthy players to develope all the role-players on the Knick bench.

The hiring of Isiah Thomas and the way Isiah fired headcoach Don Chaney after the Knicks just came off a 4 game defensive winning streak (over Red Holzman Grizz 98-94, Heat 100-80, Magic 114-86, Heat 102-73) with a Knick record of 14-19. Isiah Thomas started his crazy trading of players for Norris, Marbury, and Penny, and 5 days after the 4 game winning streak Norris & Marbury were the Knicks starters (2 nondefensive players). And non defensive Tim Thomas who average 3 rebounds a game came 2 weeks later in a trade for KVH who was averaging 20-8-5 alongside of Mutombo, K.Thomas, Houston, Anderson, and Ward.

Isiah Thomas became the Knicks biggest problem with winning his first two months on the job...

You are truely a legend and your words can cure AIDS and cancer, god bless your soul...this post was BRILLIANT!

Kiyaman said:
If u cant read my shit than why do u always answer my shit.....are u a fly

KIYAMAN WITH THE DEATHBLOW!!!

metrocard · May 23, 2010

Isiah made the problem worse than it already was and by far has made dumber trades and signings than Layden has ever had...all Layden was...really is a yesman to Dolan.

Isiah was the damn president, coach and GM and failed at all.

Simply there is no comparision.
Making this thread is a credit to Isiah's fail.
Anyone voted Layden is a FOOL.

Layden vs. Isiah - who was worse?

Who was worse? Isiah Thomas or Scott Layden?

Layden

Isiah

All Star

Rookie

Starter

All Star

Legend

Hannibal Lecter

Legend

KnicksonLIN.com

Hannibal Lecter

Legend

Hannibal Lecter

Legend

Legend

Hannibal Lecter

Benchwarmer

Starter

Legend

Legend

Legend

Legend