Some say TD23 doesn't have what it takes or the potential to become a starting PG...

I'll have to agree to disagree.

First & foremost; I just feel it's a blessing that he's being developed under two great offensive PG minds in MDA as coach & Billups as a championship leading vet. Next year he'll be considered a 3rd year pro, who would have then gained the much needed playoff experience needed inorder to take the next step as an offensive leader from the PG position. He's pretty much a 1st year player this year. Raw & learning on the fly.

I also love his defense, which is exactly what NY needs. He's averaging over 1.5 steals per game this year (as a backup!) This kid won ACC defensive awards & is known as FSU's best defensive Guard since Charlie Ward. He'll only continue to improve, but he already has the type of defensive ability that can slow down overall production of opposing PG's.

The 76ers game & offensive flow was bad after CB went down, but Toney did come up clutch with 17 points, a huge 3 & big time free throws. It's a matter of time before he improves the pace & flow of the gm.
 

WrongIslander

Rotation player
They're right. He's improving but he's basically an energy player who will win some games but not enough to lead this team and that's what we need.
 
17-2
28-5
11-6
7-1
16-2
5-2
16-2
17-1
5-4
7-9
20-11
29-3
17-4
3-3

Thats what TD23 has done during the 14 games CB4 has been back. NY went 6-8 during that time. TD has averaged 14.1 points & 3.9 assist's per game as a backup.

I'm currious to see how many other backups have averaged better than that?

As a starter; both his PPG & Assist's numbers are sure to rise. See for youself.

Dallas: 18-8 L
Memphis: 18-10 W
Jazz: 20-6 W
ATL: 10-7 W
Cavs: 11-5 L
Hornets: 24-5 W

After Billups went down; NY went 4-2 under Douglas as a starter & blew out Utah, ATL & NOH by a combined 59 points.

Douglas averaged a strong 18.5 points & 6.8 assist's per game as a starter during the 6 games Billups was out. Those numbers are scary good, considering the fact we had an entire offense that was trying to learn our offensive system or players around the system.

He's not even @ his peak or in his prime yet. We could be dealing with a 21-8 per gm type of PG talent. His potential goes through the roof with Amre & Melo.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
The jury is still out. Yes, he has the POTENTIAL but will he realize that potential? Time will tell.
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
17-2
28-5
11-6
7-1
16-2
5-2
16-2
17-1
5-4
7-9
20-11
29-3
17-4
3-3

Thats what TD23 has done during the 14 games CB4 has been back. NY went 6-8 during that time. TD has averaged 14.1 points & 3.9 assist's per game as a backup.

I'm currious to see how many other backups have averaged better than that?

As a starter; both his PPG & Assist's numbers are sure to rise. See for youself.

Dallas: 18-8 L
Memphis: 18-10 W
Jazz: 20-6 W
ATL: 10-7 W
Cavs: 11-5 L
Hornets: 24-5 W

After Billups went down; NY went 4-2 under Douglas as a starter & blew out Utah, ATL & NOH by a combined 59 points.

Douglas averaged a strong 18.5 points & 6.8 assist's per game as a starter during the 6 games Billups was out. Those numbers are scary good, considering the fact we had an entire offense that was trying to learn our offensive system or players around the system.

He's not even @ his peak or in his prime yet. We could be dealing with a 21-8 per gm type of PG talent. His potential goes through the roof with Amre & Melo.

Those numbers are fine, but what they don't show is his inability to get the offense moving at times. Making a pass that leads to a pass for an assist is just as important. A lot of times, TD brings the offense to a halt like we saw in the PHI game. He's also not recognizing or seeing the cuts good enough. He will learn but as of now he doen't have what it takes to be a starting PG on a regular basis.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Yea I can see TD as more of a SG than a combo guard. He's a short SG so I guess some thinks that naturally makes him a combo guard, but i think Monta is the quintessential combo guard in the league right now. When he's on the court, he's not really playing either position...he's just a guard. Sometimes you'll see him get the ball and initiate the offense, get into a rhythm, and finish the game with 11 assists with Curry out there as well...while also scoring. On other occasions you'll see him finish the game with 3-5 assists but 35+ points.

I think Douglas, Eric Gordon, Ben Gordon, and Marcus Thornton are all in the same category. Small 2-guards who can use their athleticism to get buckets, but they're not gonna run your point effectively. TD is also the best defensive player in the bunch, let him focus on what he does.
 
Those #'s were very good during the 6 games as a starter.

I agree, TD does struggle running a good offensive pace, flow to the game & overall offense @ times, but isn't that expected? He's only been in the league for two years. Pretty much a first year player (rookie) due to the fact that he pretty gained little playing time to no experience for most of last year.

I've seen a lot more than just potential. I've seen real NBA ability. TD23 has been a very productive 2nd year player & turning into a top 5 steal of last year's draft.

What happened against Philly was rare & wasn't "the norm" because if that were the case; MDA would want nothing to do with Douglas & would have Carter starting over Douglas while TD goes to waste on the bench. That was one of the worst performances we've ever seen with TD running the offense after Billups went down last game. Growing pains you know.

Next year he'll be a 3rd year pro with playoff experience. He must improve, he will improve & he's just now coming into his own.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
He is coming into his own KFFQ, but the thing is "his own" is at SG. The transition from SG (which he played exclusively in college) to PG in the NBA is a difficult one. Just because he's the same size as PGs, and his coach wants him to play at PG, doesn't make him a PG. Too often you see small guys deemed "combo-guards" stay at the SG spot (E. Gordon, B. Gordon, Jason Terry lately, Barbosa, Marcus Thornton, etc.) while Ellis and Bayless seem to be more comfortable making the seamless transition between 1 and 2 on the court.

Douglas doesn't show that. He can get the stats, but he doesn't look as comfortable when he's trying to run the offense. Put him in his comfort zone to optimize his talents, and that's at SG. You can't expect too many players to pull off what Westbrook did. The odds were heavily against him.
 
I'm not saying that he's ready to start right now or even next year. But after gaining playoff expericne this year + a full offseason of improving over the summer? He'll become a much different & improved player next year. He's still raw. He's only learning on the fly. Learning & being developed under both Mike D'Antoni & Chauncey Billups has became a dream come true for this kid. I cant think of a younger backup PG who's in a better position that Douglas himself.

I've seen this kid develope since his FSU days & he still continues to improve at a rapid pace. Crazy talent man. After the exerience that he's gained this year, the playoff experience he's on the verge of gaining this season, after an offseason this summer, preseason, regular season & more playoff experience next year + another full offseason & training camp? Man... I think he'll be more than just READY to lead this offense from the PG position come 2012. He'll be a 4th year pro with 2 years of playoff experience by that time. 26-27 years young!
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
I'm not saying that he's ready to start right now or even next year. But after gaining playoff expericne this year + a full offseason of improving over the summer? He'll become a much different & improved player next year. He's still raw. He's only learning on the fly. Learning & being developed under both Mike D'Antoni & Chauncey Billups has became a dream come true for this kid. I cant think of a younger backup PG who's in a better position that Douglas himself.

I've seen this kid develope since his FSU days & he still continues to improve at a rapid pace. Crazy talent man. After the exerience that he's gained this year, the playoff experience he's on the verge of gaining this season, after an offseason this summer, preseason, regular season & more playoff experience next year + another full offseason & training camp? Man... I think he'll be more than just READY to lead this offense from the PG position come 2012. He'll be a 4th year pro with 2 years of playoff experience by that time. 26-27 years young!

I like your faith in him but I can't see that happening by 2012. The PG position is the hardest to grasp in the NBA, especially if it isn't your natural position. The way he looks whe he's asked to orchestrate the offense leads me to believe it will take longer than you think.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
I agree that he's developing, he needs playoff experience, and that he's crazy talented. I just don't agree that he's a PG or best suited to play PG in any capacity in the NBA. That doesn't mean he's not talented, it just means he's not best suited to run the point. Just like Brad Smith having success in wildcat formations doesn't mean he's best suited to be the backup QB.

Coaching is all about putting players in position to have success, that's why Thornton, both Gordon's and Terry aren't asked to run the point.
 

NY17

Benchwarmer
I like him as a 6th man combo guard playing 25 minutes, but not as a full time starting PG.
 
He'll learn how to run an O. MDA was an NBA PG for a while & left the Italian league's back in 90 as the All-Time leading scorer & won a crap load of Euro Chips. Voted as the greatest Italian PG of All-Time. MDA will force him to learn. He's always screaming @ TD.

Mike seen something very special in this kid as a potential PG. If this weren't the case? He wouldn't be getting PG reps. Billups & Carter would run the point with Fields & TD23 splitting time @ 2G. MDA isn't dumb.

He was a combo guard with FSU (my team) but I seen him play every night. He's not an NBA 2G. He's more like 5'11-6'1 @ the very most.. He's not tall enough to get good looks over much taller SG's. He's also 180-183 soaking wet. Not strong enough/heavy enough to guard opposing SG's. They'll back him down all night long. Guys like Kobe & others would shoot over TD with open lookers for 4 quarters strong. As a PG? He's able to over-power alot of PG's. He's also NO WHERE NEAR the type of off the ball player that Fields has become.
 

TakMan

Rotation player
KFFQ if what you suggest takes place (i.e teaching Douglas the position so that he can be a completed PG in a couple of years) This will mean that after applying all that effort in order to potentially turn him into a PG, in 2 years we'll have a 27 year old player who may resemble a PG or may have wasted 2 years trying to learn a position that he cannot play. This will result in Douglas at least remaining stagnant rather than progressing. Douglas appears to be well suited to D'Antoni's game as a combo guard. He can shoot and he's one of few players that consistently hustle on defence. For me he's not young enough to be labelled a project player. He's developing his strengths which are mainly shooting and defence and that is positive. As stated in a previous thread I think he'll turn out to be a really good 6th man (Jason Terry style) It's not a bad thing. If anything it means the Knicks have depth for the forseeable future.
 
But Knuckles, you even stated that coaching is all about putting his players in best possible position to enjoy success. I agree.

Lets be honest; MDA knows the PG position & offensive aspects of the game just as much, if not more than 95% of other coaches in todays NBA.

There's a reason why MDA has played TD @ the PG position. It's because he spots real PG talent, potential & ability. Toney makes plenty of mistakes as a learning talent, but it's great to see MDA harp, yell, scream, correct & teach TD every night. Thats a good thing. He cares about Douglas. In sports, it becomes a problem when the coach no longer cares enough to correct or teach.

One thing is for sure; Douglas will have a TRUE TEST against a top 3 PG tonight in D-Will. I'm sure we can all agree with that.

Last time TD23 went up against a top 3 PG (as a starter) was when NY blew out CP3 & the Hornets. TD23 passed that test with flying colors putting up 24 & 5. CP3 had a horrid game but TD's D was like white on rice type of pressure glue.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Deron is not playing, and you keep somehow missing the point. It's not about what TD does against other players, and it's not about whether or not MDA cares for TD or knows the PG position well...Toney Douglas is not a point guard. He's a shooting guard trying to make the transition, a very tough transition, a transition that most small SGs don't make.

Toney Douglas' position is shooting guard, Toney Douglas' skill-set is best utilized at the shooting guard position, the best place to put Toney Douglas to maximize the talents that he currently possess without trying to "teach" him a new position is shooting guard.

Toney Douglas can naturally get his own shot, when he's trying to run the offense and facilitate...it doesn't look natural. You can see point guard qualities that can be grown and expanded in young players, TD doesn't really show those qualities. Even when he puts up decent assist numbers he still looks like a shooting guard that's passing the ball as opposed to a point guard running the offense.

If he didn't grow up controlling the ball and playing the point, then chances are he doesn't have those qualities in his game. It doesn't matter how much the coach cares for the player, some things can't be taught by another human being...so you roll with what the player has and work with that.
 
He's not a natural 2G, if he were... MDA wouldn't be developing him as a PG. Mike may lack defensive coaching ability, but he's grade-A in terms of offensive ability & coaching. He knows what he's doing with TD23 & it's foolish to think we know more about this situation that MDA himself.

MDA knows the PG position as well as an offensive attack better than me, you & this entire message board combined Bro.

I seen many of great games from TD as a PG with FSU. He was a combo Guard for us. He wasn't a SG & he wasn't a PG for FSU; he was a well rounded combo Guard.

He's not a natural NBA SG. The man is 5'11-6'1 @ the very most. Way too short to compete against much taller 2G's who can back him down & shoot over him all night. TD makes for a strong, powerful PG who can dominate opposing PG's with toughness. I seen this kid grow up over night with the Knicks under MDA. He's no where near the type of off the ball player that Fields has become as a rookie. No where near it. He's not an NBA SG, way too small.
 

skisloper

Starter
Tony Douglas is a great back up shooting guard off the bench.
He can be used as a point guard when needed but we should have better options.
He deserves 25 minutes or more a game.
He gets better each year.
I would much rather have him then Jamal Crawford coming off the bench.
TD plays both sides of the ball...
And I can live with the 2 shots he throws up that can make u cringe and then evolve to anger of WHY....
But like I said he has improved and hopefully the BAD shots will vanish.
 
They're right. He's improving but he's basically an energy player who will win some games but not enough to lead this team and that's what we need.

Depends on what you expect, the next Chris Paul/Deron Williams or the next Charlie Ward/Chris Childs.

Ward and Childs were both pretty good for us, we've reached the NBA Finals and 2000 Eastern Conf. Finals with them running the point. Neither of them was anywhere near as good or talented as Chris Paul/Deron Williams or Derrick Rose.

I think T-Doug 23 is more than capable of beeing our starting PG. He's a great defender, good 3 point shooter, solid ball handler and tough minded guy. Basically everything that Ward and CHilds brought to the table. They weren't 8 or 9 apg guys either.

I say we need a better shooter at the SG position than we have atm. I hope Fields can improve, because atm his shooting is pretty average (despite good fg%).

I think you can't judge a player by himself. It depends on chemistry. TD 23 would fit right in with let's say: Melo, STAT, DeAndre Jordan and a pure shooter at the 2.

A starting backcourt of Fields and Douglas would not be that good imo, in terms of spacing and spreading the floor for STAT, Melo and a new center (Jordan).

So to summarize it: Yes I think T-Doug has the ability to be our starting PG from 2k12 onwards, however if we're going to sacrifice some playmaking ability at the PG spot we need to make up for it by spreading the floor for our big men and Melo, with a good to great shooter at the 2.

J.J. Redick? Xavier Henry? Anthony Morrow? Jimmer Fredette?
 
Also, if defense wins chips, the best way we could form a top 15 or even top 10 D is with TD23 @ PG & Fields @ SG.

You won't find many defensive PG's better than TD. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's averaging over 1.5 steals per game as a backup! Thats insane. Also, like I've stated in the past, I've seen him dominate entie back-courts during his days with FSU. Earned ACC awards on the defensive end. Best defensive FSU Guard since Charlie Ward; by far too. If we dream of a top 10 defense; Douglas is the PG I want. He also applies ALOT of pressure on opping D's @ the head of our attack. A PG who can put up 25-30+ any given night, with two of the NBA's top 5 scorers? Deadly trying to defend against.

Fields has shown defensive ability & potential as a rookie, that calls for a very strong future perimeter defender.

When Melo's focused on defense with effort; he's a top 5 defensive SF. Great SF rebounder too.

Amare is Amare, but that only leaves the C position to improve. Gasol or DeAndre would be PERFECT...
 
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