Basketball Champions Offensive and Defensive ratings (last 15 years)

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Sorry guys. I was out all day. Thanks Rono, STAT1 and others for the compliments on the stats.

ISay has it right. I believe D'Antoni's past teams are an indicator of how his future teams will progress. Although iSay will call it speculation on my part, I will say that it is more of an educated inference. There are no reason to believe things are going to change with this Knicks team.

I think our main concern is the center position at this point. Will it help our defense? Absolutely. But you have to remember that we are bottom third. A defensive center is not going to make us a top 10 defensive team.

Defense, in basketball, is not something one player just does. It takes a team. It takes a committed team. Does that require player participation and willingness. Absolutely.

Our players have been preaching how they want to play D since the trade. Fair enough. They have their lapses, but I do believe they try. This game tonight was horrifying because I think they just gave up. They tried to blame one another instead up taking responsibility. That scares me.

However, I believe that it is a coaches job to make sure they are sticking to their assignments and making proper rotations. MDA has not shown to me this year (before or after the trade) that he is the coach to discipline the team.

Like on offense, playing defense together can make up for individual defects.

I think this team can be a top 10 defensive team. As was mentioned, we have role players who look like they want to step up. But, given that our two best players (our leaders) are purely offensive guys, I think it is going to take a special coach to get every single player on the same page. Given D'Antoni's past, he is not that guy. Can he become that guy??? Maybe? But, if he were to become that guy, don't you think he would have given us at least some sign by this point that he was.

We lost to the Pacers tonight. They scored 106 points. They shot... what... around 60% (haven't checked the stats).

It's unacceptable. The poorer teams in the league don't allow that kind of stat line. It was expected we'd make the playoffs this year. Sure. We will. But, right now, we have two superstars, and a great point guard in Billups. Expectations are rising for what this team should be able to do.

I don't think you can get rid of D'Antoni now. He still needs some time to put this team together. I'll give him the summer and next season. If he can't get our guys working together as a defensive unit by halfway through... Then I'd get rid of him.

With Bball you have a limited window to be great. If we give him another year and half or two years, fire him, hire a new coach, and then need to build more pieces into the team to suit that coach's style... who the hell knows where we'll be. Maybe Anthony has had enough and wants to go elsewhere at the end of his contract.

I think the writing is on the wall that MDA can't get it done. I think the that defensive numbers really show that he can't get it done. I don't want to hope we are an anomaly. I don't. I want to give us the greatest chance at winning... A top tier offensive team, but middle of the range in defense has shown over the past 15 years to be unacceptable at winning rings.

NY deserves a championship after all these years. We deserve a championship after all these years.

Edit
I do disagree with iSay on causality. You don't play defense, the other teams scores on almost every posession. They play defense, you don't score on every possession. They win the game. That is a direct cause.

But, hell, even assuming arguendo it was just correlative, I think that given the high percerntage, it is a correlation you want to have.

David Hume theorized that anything can change.... tomorrow gravity may not exist. The rotation of the Earth may not actually keep us planted to its surface. Perhaps it is actually another factor that keeps us held down that we don't know about it and that factor could just disappear. Maybe... But, given that the planet has been rotating and we are pressed to the ground, the correlation between the two is so strong that it is safe to theorize that one is related to the other.

When you see 11/15 teams with defense in the top 5, 14/15 in the top ten, the correlation holds that strong defensive teams win championships. Is that player related? Sure. Is it coach related? Sure.

MDA picks a team for an uptempo offense and will tend towards more offensive players than defensive. He, in fact, rarely gives a second look to defenders (with a few exceptions). So, whether it is players, coach, or both, D'Antoni's offense dictated certain players to be on this team. The resulting lack of defense is thusly directly related to MDA. My major point of this all is that if we are going to become a better defensive team, we need a coach that will accept defensive players AND give great defensive strategies...

MDA has never shown to be this guy on either front.
 
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MusketeerX

Rotation player
For iSay:

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mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> To show you a coach has a direct causal effect on a player’s defense, please see below. You will note that all players under Tom -- even those not mentioned -- have a defensive rating increase. Notice Derrick Rose’s stats, in particular. His team was not that much different than the year before. Still had Luol Deng and Noah as defenders. His rating increased by 7 points…. This is when you introduce Boozer (known for poor defense) and Bogans to the starting lineup (who also increased his defensive rating under Tom: a career 107 points allow per hundred possessions went to 103).

Mind you that Rose’s stats increased by such a dramatic amount while having Noah injured for a few months…

Tom increased the team’s defensive rating a full 10 spots… He made them a number one team. Note this was expected because he was/is a great defensive coach…

Bulls:
2010- 2011:
Off Rtg: 107.1 (16th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 100.0 (1st of 30)

2009-2010:
Off Rtg: 103.5 (27th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 105.3 (11th of 30)

From my other thread:

Derrick Rose
1) 2009-10:109
2) 2010-11: 102 (Tommy)
3) Career: 109

Boozer
1) 2009-10: 102
2) 2010-11: 99 (Tommy)
3) Career: 103

Ronnie Brewer
1) 2009-10: 108
2) 2010-11: 98 (Tommy)
3) Career: 105

Keith Bogans
1) 2009-2010: 106
2) 2010-2011: 103 (Tommy)
3) Career: 107

Deng
1) 2009-10: 106
2) 2010-11: 102 (Tommy)
3) Career: 104

Noah
1) 2009-10: 101
2) 2010-11: 96 (Tommy)
3) Career: 102
 
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STAT1

Starter
For iSay:

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mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> To show you a coach has a direct causal effect on a player?s defense, please see below. You will note that all players under Tom -- even those not mentioned -- have a defensive rating increase. Notice Derrick Rose?s stats, in particular. His team was not that much different than the year before. Still had Luol Deng and Noah as defenders. His rating increased by 7 points?. This is when you introduce Boozer (known for poor defense) and Bogans to the starting lineup (who also increased his defensive rating under Tom: a career 107 points allow per hundred possessions went to 103).

Mind you that Rose?s stats increased by such a dramatic amount while having Noah injured for a few months?

Tom increased the team?s defensive rating a full 10 spots? He made them a number one team. Note this was expected because he was a great defensive coach?

Bulls:
2010- 2011:
Off Rtg: 107.1 (16th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 100.0 (1st of 30)

2009-2010:
Off Rtg: 103.5 (27th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 105.3 (11th of 30)

From my other thread:

Derrick Rose
1) 2009-10:109
2) 2010-11: 102 (Tommy)
3) Career: 109

Boozer
1) 2009-10: 102
2) 2010-11: 99 (Tommy)
3) Career: 103

Ronnie Brewer
1) 2009-10: 108
2) 2010-11: 98 (Tommy)
3) Career: 105

Keith Bogans
1) 2009-2010: 106
2) 2010-2011: 103 (Tommy)
3) Career: 107

Deng
1) 2009-10: 106
2) 2010-11: 102 (Tommy)
3) Career: 104

Noah
1) 2009-10: 101
2) 2010-11: 96 (Tommy)
3) Career: 102

Just when I think you can't outdo your original post you come up with this one. I would give you another rep point for this one if it let me. :beer:
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Just when I think you can't outdo your original post you come up with this one. I would give you another rep point for this one if it let me. :beer:

Thanks Stat. Appreciate it. Here is a +1 for you. Haha.

edit:
NM. I guess the last person I gave a rep point was to you anyways, and it won't let me.
 

STAT1

Starter
No worries bro, I don't want rep points unless I earn them. But appreciate the gesture anyway. :)
 

moneyg

Starter
For iSay:

To show you a coach has a direct causal effect on a player?s defense, please see below. You will note that all players under Tom -- even those not mentioned -- have a defensive rating increase. Notice Derrick Rose?s stats, in particular. His team was not that much different than the year before. Still had Luol Deng and Noah as defenders. His rating increased by 7 points?. This is when you introduce Boozer (known for poor defense) and Bogans to the starting lineup (who also increased his defensive rating under Tom: a career 107 points allow per hundred possessions went to 103).

Mind you that Rose?s stats increased by such a dramatic amount while having Noah injured for a few months?

Tom increased the team?s defensive rating a full 10 spots? He made them a number one team. Note this was expected because he was/is a great defensive coach?

Bulls:
2010- 2011:
Off Rtg: 107.1 (16th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 100.0 (1st of 30)

2009-2010:
Off Rtg: 103.5 (27th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 105.3 (11th of 30)

From my other thread:

Derrick Rose
1) 2009-10:109
2) 2010-11: 102 (Tommy)
3) Career: 109

Boozer
1) 2009-10: 102
2) 2010-11: 99 (Tommy)
3) Career: 103

Ronnie Brewer
1) 2009-10: 108
2) 2010-11: 98 (Tommy)
3) Career: 105

Keith Bogans
1) 2009-2010: 106
2) 2010-2011: 103 (Tommy)
3) Career: 107

Deng
1) 2009-10: 106
2) 2010-11: 102 (Tommy)
3) Career: 104

Noah
1) 2009-10: 101
2) 2010-11: 96 (Tommy)
3) Career: 102


best thing about this tread.....u dont see trill, toons, etc.. the O'antoni lovers...

im sure they read it.. research it.. read it again.. and still wish they didnt see it...lmao

its like putting a paperbag over the ugly chick you in love with.. they dont want to see the truth
 

moneyg

Starter
Fair enough. But when pre-season brawls were going on in KO, and people were giving their final judgements and season predictions and expectations....Including "analysts",

They were ones that MDA/Knicks have met or exceeded so far this season.

Can't hold this against *yours*.

But if you'd be ok if we win less games but put faith in size this year, you are going to rage against D'antoni until he wins a chip. His style and thinking will always piss you off first and foremost, and seem impossible to be truly legit. Barring the actual winning of a chip here.


we will never win a chip with O'antoni unless he brings in a defensive coach to help him in areas he lack..

O'antoni had very good teams in PHX. mvp, etc... and couldnt do....so im not convinced.....a 60 win team should at least make it to the finals
 

Red

TYPE-A
I think some people on here think I and others are hating on D'Antoni because we just like to.

I am posting this thread not to debate about it more, but to show that our concerns on his defensive ratings and his lack of attention to it are almost certainly going to cost us a championship.

Please find below the offensive and defensive ratings for the championship teams for the past 15 years. You will find only one occasion where the defensive rating was outside the top ten during the regular seasons (That team's defensive rating (Lakers) was top ten during the playoffs).

Let us be clear about this.

Defensively:
  • Only 1 out of the last 15 teams who won a championship had a defensive rating outside the top 10 (6%)
  • 14 out of the 15 teams were rated a top 10 defensive team (93%)
  • 11 out of the 15 teams were top 5 in defensive ratings (73%)
  • 13 out of the 15 teams were top 7 in defensive ratings (87%)
  • 5 out of the 15 teams were number 1 in the league in defensive rating (33%)
Offensively:
  • Just 2 out of the 15 teams were best in the league offensively (13%)
  • 3 out of 15 teams won a championship with offense ratings outside the top ten (20%). Meaning it is 3x's more likely you will win a ring with offense outside the top ten than defense outside the top ten. AKA, Defense is more important than offense.
  • 9 out of the 15 teams were outside the top 5 offensively (60%)
Combined
  • 11 out of the 15 teams were BOTH top ten in offense and defense.
  • 3 of the 4 who were not top ten in both offense and defense, were a top ten defensive team.
Moral of the story is that only one team in the last 15 years was not in top 10 in defense. ONE. Of course that was the 2001 Lakers (never show up during the regular season). I checked their defensive ratings in the regular season compared to the playoffs. They raised their defensive rating to top of the league during the playoffs (only lost one game during the entire playoffs). So, even then, they were still one of the elite defensive teams in the playoffs. This makes EVERY team that won a championship for the past 15 years a top 10 defensive team.

In the end, you want a balanced offense and defense, but the stats below ultimately prove that defense is more important. If you have offense outside the top 10 in the regular season, you stand a 20% chance of winning a championship. Still really bad odds, but, much better when compared to teams who fell outside of the top 10 defensive teams in the regular season (6%).

You need a balance. You need offense and defense; but, if you are going to sacrifice one, you sacrifice offense and not defense. I'm not willing to put my odds at winning a championship at 6% (and that is provided MDA can make the Knicks a top defensive team during the playoffs).... Just not going to do it.

Hopefully these stats show that I and others are not hating on MDA for no reason. We see a pattern -- bad defense doesn't win championships. This is why we call for a new coach or a coach who will stress D.

Sure, we can be that 2001 Lakers anomaly with MDA as our coach (which really wasn't an anomaly when you see what the Lakers did defensively in the playoffs), but my questions are:
  • Wouldn't you rather be a part of the 93% group who won with defense? (100 percent when you look at the Lakers in the playoffs)
  • Doesn't that gives us a much better chance, no?
Ultimately everyone on this board wants what's best for the Knicks. These stats show that being a top 10 defensive team is what is best for the Knicks. Do you really want to take a chance on a coach that has NEVER had a top 10 defensive team?

Stats:

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2010:
Lakers: Off Rtg: 108.8 (11th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 103.7 (4th of 30)

2009:
Lakers: Off Rtg: 112.8 (3rd of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.7 (6th of 30)

2008:
Celtics: Off Rtg: 110.2 (10th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 98.9 (1st of 30)

2007:
Spurs: Off Rtg: 109.2 (5th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 99.9 (2nd of 30)

2006:
Heat: Off Rtg: 108.7 (7th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.5 (9th of 30)

2005:
Spurs: Off Rtg: 107.5 (8th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 98.8 (1st of 30)

2004:
Pistons: Off Rtg: 102.0 (18th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 95.4 (2nd of 29)

2003:
Spurs: Off Rtg: 105.6 (7th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 99.7 (3rd of 29)

2002:
Lakers: Off Rtg: 109.4 (2nd of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 101.7 (7th of 29)

2001:
Lakers: Off Rtg: 108.4 (2nd of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.8 (21st of 29)

2000:
Lakers: Off Rtg: 107.3 (5th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 98.2 (1st of 29)

1999:
Spurs: Off Rtg: 104.0 (11th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 95.0 (1st of 29)

1998:
Bulls: Off Rtg: 107.7 (9th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 99.8 (3rd of 29)

1997:
Bulls: Off Rtg: 114.4 (1st of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 102.4 (4th of 29)

1996:
Bulls: Off Rtg: 115.2 (1st of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 101.8 (1st of 29)

Great analysis.

To take it a step further, i would look at the Center position on those winning teams, and I would venture to say they are at least 6'11 serviceable players, and probably are accompanied by more depth. A supporter would argue we are void of this type of player- but in all fairness a consideration the MDA is partly responsible for that too is in order.

This study concludes defense not only is a major factor in winning, but infers MDA'S style, ability, and overall results lacked this important ingredient, and affected such directly and indirectly. Of course his supporters can find a silver lining in the fact that he can change his approach and the "two way" players needed to offset the negative unintended consequences of his system are a rare commodity, and given cap issues are next to impossible.

That said, really this information is for Donnie Walsh. He needs to decide which direction the franchise is headed; he decides which players (based on coaches input) and which coach is right. Like it or not, MDA has achieved putting the Knicks back on the map, of course with Donnie. Now the question is does Donnie feel he owes him?

In my opinion, the marriage between the Knicks and MDA was mutually beneficial. Going forward I think our goals are beyond what MDA is capable of without an adaptation. How long exactly it may take to prove this is the case I would speculate until the end of his contract, in all fairness.
 

iSaYughh

Starter
I can't directly copy the post bc of a tech glitch, but Muskateer

I again never said a coach couldn't impact a team's D. We are talking about champions and more specifically, what can most profoundly....readily...and likely shape a team into the defensive stuff to be title-worthy.

This last post shows, again, in wonderful illustration something that is true....but doesn't have much to do with MDA or my prior post to your one before. It proves a point, and a good point, but doesn't prove the point (or at least the one that this thread was designed to prove).

It shows that a great defensive coach on a good team can make a big defensive impact on the team.

True.

Whenever Tibs is a coaching FA, or the equivalent to him is readily available, we can look into a replacement. But that reality doesn't exist right now.

Moreover, the biggest point made in this thread is about champions and championships and their defensive.

And your OP, which laid this bare, definitively proved that while coaching *can* make differences on a team's D (see your above, re: Tibs),

The actual champion list most clearly shows that players, NOT coach, who make the biggest difference, and most undeniable and likely difference.

In light of the fact that a defensive guru coach like Tibs isn't even readily available, it's even more appropriate to place an even greater burden on the players. Which already demonstrate that it is they who most *profoundly*...and *consistently* morph and impact a team's overall defensive ability *particularly* when you are concerned with building a *champion*,

per your initial OP which indeed showed the type of D necessary to most likely build a winner,

and also showed the most likely, and feasible, way to achieve it.
 

iSaYughh

Starter
Great analysis.

To take it a step further, i would look at the Center position on those winning teams, and I would venture to say they are at least 6'11 serviceable players, and probably are accompanied by more depth. A supporter would argue we are void of this type of player- but in all fairness a consideration the MDA is partly responsible for that too is in order.

This study concludes defense not only is a major factor in winning, but infers MDA'S style, ability, and overall results lacked this important ingredient, and affected such directly and indirectly. Of course his supporters can find a silver lining in the fact that he can change his approach and the "two way" players needed to offset the negative unintended consequences of his system are a rare commodity, and given cap issues are next to impossible.

That said, really this information is for Donnie Walsh. He needs to decide which direction the franchise is headed; he decides which players (based on coaches input) and which coach is right. Like it or not, MDA has achieved putting the Knicks back on the map, of course with Donnie. Now the question is does Donnie feel he owes him?

In my opinion, the marriage between the Knicks and MDA was mutually beneficial. Going forward I think our goals are beyond what MDA is capable of without an adaptation. How long exactly it may take to prove this is the case I would speculate until the end of his contract, in all fairness.

An excellent, maybe perfect post.

If Walsh "owes" MDA anything...perhaps he could get him but *one* undeniable,

This Man Is A Pretty Quality NBA Starting Center

A 1yr rental who was to date one of the biggest NBA busts of all time (Darko), and a (major) boom or bust mystery player in Randolph, who was trade bait himself, and who may well be more of an NBA sf/pf at this point than a 5....

Before concluding, and then canning MDA, on an (in)ability to shape a defense as is needed, when the most gaping hole on the team....is likely the worst in the entire NBA....and is arguably the most premium position in the game to have some known quality at, and further, is the most premium insofar as defining a team's D, and shaping it.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
I can't directly copy the post bc of a tech glitch, but Muskateer

I again never said a coach couldn't impact a team's D. We are talking about champions and more specifically, what can most profoundly....readily...and likely shape a team into the defensive stuff to be title-worthy.

This last post shows, again, in wonderful illustration something that is true....but doesn't have much to do with MDA or my prior post to your one before. It proves a point, and a good point, but doesn't prove the point (or at least the one that this thread was designed to prove).

It shows that a great defensive coach on a good team can make a big defensive impact on the team.

That was the exact point I was trying to make with the last post. The Knicks are a good team, and adding an excellent defensive coach will make a marked improvement.

My original posts shows that you need a great defensive team to stand a good chance at winning a ring.

The last time I checked, we were 21st in the league defensively. If Tom could raise a team ten spots with essentially the same core group from the year before in the Bulls, then it stands to show he could do something similar with the Knicks. Mind you, you also have to consider the original position from where he raised the Bulls, too. He went from 11 to 1. Meaning he made them such a great defensive team that they surpassed other great defensive teams. It would be much more easy, say, to raise a 30 to 20, because those teams don't play defense at all. The closer you get to the front of the pack the more difficult it will become.

I don't think you'd disagree that (and judging my your reply to Red's post -- you don't) the coaches "win" philosophy has a direct relation to the type of players a GM tries to get him.

More of a reason, in my opinion, to get rid of MDA sooner than later.

Thibs shows (re above) that he can make a team elite. Boozer of course helps, but really their defense didn't improve by 10 spots just because of players -- especially when you consider their core starting line-up may have actually worsened on an individual defensive side with the addition of Boozer. Thibs strategies made each of his players better defenders. We need a coach like that. More importantly, with Melo and Amar'e, who have shown little defensive tendencies, we must pray for a coach like that.

I will never say players don't matter. The obviously do. But everything falls back to the coach.

I think we have a core group of guys that are those "great players" you wanted. I would like "two-way" guys (sounds dirty) as you suggested, but when we had something similar to that in Corey Brewer, he didn't play. Even more reason to get a new coach. Again, the coaches strategies goes to the type of players we acquire. Walsh got players that matched D'Antoni's style of play -- that is until this trade, where you don't pass up on a superstar like Melo. Now you see D'Antoni frustrated in that he doesn't have the players that match his offense and looks a bit lost out there. He is a one dimensional coach in this respect.

Right now, we need a coach that can teach team defense to two guys that don't really play it (because like it or not they are here to stay). We need a coach that will accept defensive/offensive hybrid players. Though, yes, players matter... ultimately it falls back to the coach and how he prefers to play basketball. If we give MDA another year, another offseason, which we may have to; who knows what will happen... what kind of long term contracts will we give out to players who will not match a more defensive minded coaches approach, should one such coach eventually come along?


I half disagree with RED that MDA made the Knicks relevant again. Yes in that he was a coach that gave some offensive prowess to a team that had Amar'e... but, truly, I think Donnie Walsh made them relevant again. He got rid of bad contracts to get a free agent in Amar'e. The freed cap space brought in some great guys, and then we get Melo. That is Walsh, not D'Antoni, IMO.
 

Toons

is the Bo$$
WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU GUYS>?

COMPLETE TEAM? OR A DEFENSIVE COACH?

A COMPLETE TEAM GIVES US MORE WINS.

IF WE LAND GASOL, JORDAN, DALEMBERT, THEN I CAN JUDGE THE COACH.

The biggest question is, did any of the championship teams have a sophmore pg, a rookie sg, and no centre?

the team only had 1 practice together.they are learning on the fly.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU GUYS>?

COMPLETE TEAM? OR A DEFENSIVE COACH?

A COMPLETE TEAM GIVES US MORE WINS.

IF WE LAND GASOL, JORDAN, DALEMBERT, THEN I CAN JUDGE THE COACH.

The biggest question is, did any of the championship teams have a sophmore pg, a rookie sg, and no centre?

the team only had 1 practice together.they are learning on the fly.

The point of this thread Toons is that a complete team (one that can win a ring) requires defense in the top 10. We need a coach that isn't going to build a team like the one in PHX to accomplish this. A change in coach will lead to a more complete team... through different defensive and offensive strategies and thus eventually different type of players to accomplish those strategies.

And again, I'm not judging MDA on the team he has now. I'm judging him on the entirety of his career. He has never had a team in the top 10 defensively... We are 21 or worse at this point in the league... One center (unless it is D. Howard) is not going to change this by itself.
 

moneyg

Starter
WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU GUYS>?

COMPLETE TEAM? OR A DEFENSIVE COACH?

A COMPLETE TEAM GIVES US MORE WINS.

IF WE LAND GASOL, JORDAN, DALEMBERT, THEN I CAN JUDGE THE COACH.

The biggest question is, did any of the championship teams have a sophmore pg, a rookie sg, and no centre?

the team only had 1 practice together.they are learning on the fly.

Oantoni played STAT at center in PHX.. dont you remember..thats our coaches style .... PHX never really had a center...til SHAQ....and now Lopez...
 

Toons

is the Bo$$
ok, i understand your points, but in 95% of our losses, we are outrebounded by 8 or more. We get killed on the offensive glass. In a game of speedball, possessions trumps defense....ONLY...if we can rebound. I dont know why, call me crazy, but i honestly feel that with a defensive minded centre, it can change the whole outlook of the team.

Aand the point before, if the coach calls the shots on players, which im not sure of....then yeah, new coach. if dantoni is stopping us from gettin a centre, he has to go.
 
I was looking at MDAs rosters at Phoenix. You guys do realize all this talk about getting a big that eats up space, rebounds and plays defense is probably moot. That just isnt MDAs cup of tea. He ran STAT in the ground for 3-4 years before getting Shaq who he didnt want at all. He'd rather play a Jared Jefferies type player that can shoot. Dont be surprised when we dont sign any of the bigs we're all clamoring for...
 

Toons

is the Bo$$
if we dont sign a big, dantoni is gone. but i feel he will get a young defensive centre in jordan. we would be the second youngest team in the nba with a really good roster and a shot at a title.

if dantoni fukks up this offseason, then i will officially switch sides from,

wait till we have a team, and then we can judge coaching on level grounds

to

Fire Oantoni
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
if we dont sign a big, dantoni is gone. but i feel he will get a young defensive centre in jordan. we would be the second youngest team in the nba with a really good roster and a shot at a title.

if dantoni fukks up this offseason, then i will officially switch sides from,

wait till we have a team, and then we can judge coaching on level grounds

to

Fire Oantoni

Toons. I hope you're right. I hope a center does it for us. I really want to contend for a title again. I hope you believe me when I say that too :).
 
Our problem is not D', It's rebounding. Our D' struggles because opposing O's get 2nd chances & sometimes 3rd attempts @ the rim.

You cant blame MDA for our rebounding problems either. PHX ranked in the high 20's before MDA took over. After MDA? They always ranked as a top 10 rebounding team. They just never had the players to play defense because Nash is horrible & Amare was trash on D back then. They never had a Center either. Until Shaq his final season. Give this man a Center & then you can judge him. Bottom line is he turned this franchise around. We're heading to the playoffs & it's not right to run him outta town before seeing how NY does in the playoffs.

PHX went 8-4 vs Kobe & the Lakers during the playoffs. Eliminated them two times. PHX split with Dallas under MDA. 1-1 split & 4-4 record. PHX swept Memphis under MDA & beat the Clippers in 7.

Oh yeah, thats right... Blame MDA for his PLAYERS not beating the DYNASTY Spurs. MDA got to PHX in 03. Duncan & SA beat NY in the Finals back in 99....
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Our problem is not D', It's rebounding. Our D' struggles because opposing O's get 2nd chances & sometimes 3rd attempts @ the rim.

You cant blame MDA for our rebounding problems either. PHX ranked in the high 20's before MDA took over. After MDA? They always ranked as a top 10 rebounding team. They just never had the players to play defense because Nash is horrible & Amare was trash on D back then. They never had a Center either. Until Shaq his final season. Give this man a Center & then you can judge him. Bottom line is he turned this franchise around. We're heading to the playoffs & it's not right to run him outta town before seeing how NY does in the playoffs.

PHX went 8-4 vs Kobe & the Lakers during the playoffs. Eliminated them two times. PHX split with Dallas under MDA. 1-1 split & 4-4 record. PHX swept Memphis under MDA & beat the Clippers in 7.

Oh yeah, thats right... Blame MDA for his PLAYERS not beating the DYNASTY Spurs. MDA got to PHX in 03. Duncan & SA beat NY in the Finals back in 99....

Rebounding is a defensive statistic. And, dude... our defense is atrocious (even outside of boarding)... There is no getting around that. Bottom 1/3.
 
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