The Verdict is in...

iJoe · Nov 12, 2010

Haha you can see the frustration on Dantoni's face when the Knicks are screwing up simple plays. One of the youngest teams in the league, and no one in their right mind thought there wouldn't be any growing pains.

Dantoni is definitely not on my top list of coaches, but he's nowhere near as bad as a lot of people on the board make him. Personally, I was fist pumping when we didn't hire that idiot on the mic Mark Jackson. I hate when players feel entitled to be head coach without working for it. Not to mention his nickname should be captain obvious when he works commentary.

Got a little off track, but please don't fall into the trap of making the coach the sole scapegoat. Don't be like Lebon bon who always places blame on something else other than himself. If we had hit just a few more wide open 3s, we would have won at least 2 more games and everyone would be talking about how awesome we are and its the return of Dant's old Suns.

Sidenote - Please stop saying FACT when you mean its your opinion. Its the internet, you can look up the definition of FACT in google if you really need.

Crazy⑧s · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
I agree at times players like CHandler are not playing to his strengths, he should drive more. Yes, coach should get some of the blame but so should Chandler who is notorious for having a low bball IQ.

Gallo is driving more and more, picking up fouls and seems to be rebounding at critical times. His shooting inconsistency can't be blamed on D'ant.

Right now, on offense not defence, I have the two on par in terms of their IQ/awareness. Comparatively, on both O & D, I give the upper hand to Chandler for his output and effort, though. Particularly those blocks he's been racking up.

Don't wanna start this debate again, but for those of us who have really watched the games - and I know you have NBA L.P.B and can really get down to analysis - to say that Gallo has played with any 'savvy' on either end, thus far, would be a very big call. Particularly if you're pitting him against Chandler and were to tip the scales in Gallo's favour.

I can't give him any free passes, thus far, after he had a year of starting with major minutes and an off-season to refine his game.

☆That wrist looks fine when he's making his shots.

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

Crazy8s said:
Right now, on offense not defence, I have the two on par in terms of their IQ/awareness. Comparatively, on both O & D, I give the upper hand to Chandler for his output and effort, though. Particularly those blocks he's been racking up.

Don't wanna start this debate again, but for those of us who have really watched the games - and I know you have NBA L.P.B and can really get down to analysis - to say that Gallo has played with any 'savvy' on either end, thus far, would be a very big call. Particularly if you're pitting him against Chandler and were to tip the scales in Gallo's favour.

I can't give him any free passes, thus far, after he had a year of starting with major minutes and an off-season to refine his game.

☆That wrist looks fine when he's making his shots.

I hope you don't think I was suggesting Gallo has played better on either side of the court compared to Chandler. I haven't I merely pointed out that he seems to be driving more and picking up fouls.

Crazy⑧s · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
I hope you don't think I was suggesting Gallo has played better on either side of the court compared to Chandler. I haven't I merely pointed out that he seems to be driving more and picking up fouls.

No, no. I just got carried away. I was speaking more so about Gallo's IQ thus far in the season and preseason. He looks like a dyslexic kid in front of a crossword.

Wilson may be notorious for his low IQ, but Gallo certainly hasn't split an atom this year.

nyk_nyk · Nov 12, 2010

I took the time to read every post in this thread to get various points of view and I absolutely agree with the assertion that MDA has some bad flaws in his coaching style.
　
TRILL - I give the team a little slack because they are new BUT some of the things like finishing games with high % shots and running offensively sound plays are sorely lacking. MDA is in love with the 3 to a fault. Its really as if he hears the criticism but wants to prove everyone wrong. Game plans should change based on your opponent and this doesn't seem to be the case with him. I watch every Knick game and I can tell you that often the spacing is bad. Sometimes it?s the players' fault and other times its just bad coaching.
　
We're better defensively in terms of blocking shots but we still allow to many points to be considered a good defensive team. Great defense is about more than shot blocks. Actually you don't even have to block shots to be a great defensive team.
　
Our problems run deeper than just missing open shots. We're taking too many low % shots AND missing them. If your down by 15, you can't expect to just hit 5 threes in a row and breathe again. You have to work your way back by getting to the line and making stops. It?s a moot point if your only trying to make shots to get back in the game. Stops are equally important and our young players need to learn how to do these things under pressure situations.
　
Young team or not, you still play the game the same way older players play it. OKC understands this and I believe they are a very young team as well.

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

Crazy8s said:
No, no. I just got carried away. I was speaking more so about Gallo's IQ thus far in the season and preseason. He looks like a dyslexic kid in front of a crossword.

Wilson may be notorious for his low IQ, but Gallo certainly hasn't split an atom this year.

I agree and his recent comments about him not having the tools to be a star are disturbing. That is why I say we should trade to get Melo.

Clyde & The Pearl · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
I am biased towards the truth not any one coach. I am here to discuss Knicks and if someone makes points that I feel aren't rooted in reality I will say something.

Really? No not really...hence my above point about my bias towards reality. Please show me exactly what I have incorrectly disputed and back it up with an actual argument. Making a list and calling them facts when they clearly aren't is not proving anything.

:teeth: Don't be so hard on yourself dude.

So if you want to dispute my points I will be happy to debate them line by line. Go ahead dude, show us you know what you are talking about instead of simply stating it.

Well maybe your reality is different from mine.

But to put it simply my reality see's that Mike D is completely married to his system. There is no plan B. Amare is a mismatch for anyone trying to guard him in the post. This isnt utilized nearly enough. Amare handles the ball to far from the basket. As soon as he puts it on the floor he's double and triple teamed and most times it results in a turnover. Mike D has to many bad three point shooters shooting three pointers. This is because of his system, not the players strengths. Coming into the season all the talk was about the Knicks now having Length and Athleticism. Why is it that it isnt being used properly? Instead of STAT, AR, Mos, Turiaf, and sometimes Chandler running around the perimeter put them closer to the basket were they'll be more effective.

Your reality seems to be that it's somewhat on the players. Which I cant agree with. They players play like the coach wants them to. Your reality seems to think having STAT 15-20 out and dribbling to the basket is good basketball. Its not.

As far as me being hard on myself If I'm not who will be...

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

nyk_nyk said:
I took the time to read every post in this thread to get various points of view and I absolutely agree with the assertion that MDA has some bad flaws in his coaching style.
　
TRILL - I give the team a little slack because they are new BUT some of the things like finishing games with high % shots and running offensively sound plays are sorely lacking. MDA is in love with the 3 to a fault. Its really as if he hears the criticism but wants to prove everyone wrong. Game plans should change based on your opponent and this doesn't seem to be the case with him. I watch every Knick game and I can tell you that often the spacing is bad. Sometimes it’s the players' fault and other times its just bad coaching.
　
We're better defensively in terms of blocking shots but we still allow to many points to be considered a good defensive team. Great defense is about more than shot blocks. Actually you don't even have to block shots to be a great defensive team.
　
Our problems run deeper than just missing open shots. We're taking too many low % shots AND missing them. If your down by 15, you can't expect to just hit 5 threes in a row and breathe again. You have to work your way back by getting to the line and making stops. It’s a moot point if your only trying to make shots to get back in the game. Stops are equally important and our young players need to learn how to do these things under pressure situations.
　
Young team or not, you still play the game the same way older players play it. OKC understands this and I believe they are a very young team as well.

I don't understand how you can say we don't space the floor? Most of those three's you complain about are open shots. I think you see Amare working in traffic and make assumptions on space not realizing that the defense is collapsing on him because we are inconsistent not because our players are bunched up together. The ball movement, the top of the key picks and the open shots are a clear sign of good spacing. All we need to do is start hitting those open shots and not forcing the ones that are contested.

I never said we were a great defensive team but we are vastly improved. We give up a lot of points more as a product of the increased possessions SSOL gives and not because the intensity or effort.

Yes, we have to cut down on contested shots and players like Chandler need to drive and pick up fouls instead of hoisting 3's. No argument there but I think people are overstating the frequency of this issue.

OKC is indeed young but their roster has been together for years and is full of all-stars including a legit super star.

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

Clyde & The Pearl said:
Well maybe your reality is different from mine.

But to put it simply my reality see's that Mike D is completely married to his system. There is no plan B. Amare is a mismatch for anyone trying to guard him in the post. This isnt utilized nearly enough. Amare handles the ball to far from the basket. As soon as he puts it on the floor he's double and triple teamed and most times it results in a turnover. Mike D has to many bad three point shooters shooting three pointers. This is because of his system, not the players strengths. Coming into the season all the talk was about the Knicks now having Length and Athleticism. Why is it that it isnt being used properly? Instead of STAT, AR, Mos, Turiaf, and sometimes Chandler running around the perimeter put them closer to the basket were they'll be more effective.

Your reality seems to be that it's somewhat on the players. Which I cant agree with. They players play like the coach wants them to. Your reality seems to think having STAT 15-20 out and dribbling to the basket is good basketball. Its not.

As far as me being hard on myself If I'm not who will be...

You are right, our realities are different considering you are tying to assert Amare is a post up player. He is not...period! He is a face to the basket mid range shooter and a finisher if given the ball while in motion. He is getting the ball 15 feet out because Felton is not feeding it to him properly. Again, if this was a coaching issue the same problems would have been happening in Phoenix.

Your reality seems to be that it's somewhat on the players. Which I cant agree with.

Right, so it's all on the coach and has nothing to do with the players. :thumbsup: Thanks for proving who lives in reality and who doesn't! You do know that D'ant does not have a joystick and is not controlling what his players do each and every minute? You do know he does not freeze time, walk on to the court and whisper to CHandler to launch a three from 4 feet beyond the arc with 18 seconds left on the shotclock and a defender in his face..right?

So yes, D'ant employs HIS system because well it's HIS system! It's a system that lead to 4 straight 50+ win seasons, back to back 60 win seasons and back to back Western Conference Finals appearances. They were tied 2/2 against the SPurs going back to their home court when Amare and Barbosa (Ithink it was Barbosa) were suspended. Had that not happened they may have won that series and faced Lebrick and the Cavs in finals.

nyk_nyk · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
The system works if players can actually start hitting shots because it allows the court to be spread and Amare not to be doubled and tripled every time he gets the ball. Again, this is execution and consistency that SHOULD get better as the players gel.

Wrong. This is exactly what myself and others are trying to point out. You can't be successful with an offense that works ONLY if you hit a high % of long range 3pt shots. Only the best shooters can run a % of 45% and over for a whole season and its probably very few of them (I'll let u look that one up). This offense is either hit or miss. There's no middle ground for success.

If players aren't hitting shots on a particular night then the system should be adjusted don't you think? Hitting 3s has never been consistent with most players, this is proven by the way we categorize a good 3pt shooter (north of 35%) and a great one (north of 40%). However, when talking about overall FG%, players can easily hit the 40%-50% mark because the shots get easier closer to the basket.

Clyde & The Pearl · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
I don't understand how you can say we don't space the floor? Most of those three's you complain about are open shots. I think you see Amare working in traffic and make assumptions on space not realizing that the defense is collapsing on him because we are inconsistent not because our players are bunched up together.

You ever think the other team knows that most of the players will be chucking up three's and unless they're all hitting them stopping STAT is first and foremost on their agenda? Except for Gallo who would other teams really fear on this team making threes consistently? TD? Not really proven. Fielder? I dont see it do you? Chandler? No. Felton? Not really. If you get those same players taking it to the rim creating fouls, easy shots for themselves and teammates now your on to something. Unconsciously hoisting up threes (WITH THIS TEAM) isnt playing winning basketball.

I read today that Mike D thinks Fielder cuts to the basket TOO MUCH when Amare has the ball out high? LOL. So he'd rather have STAT try to dribble (which face it he's not good at) to the basket than possibly having an easy bucket by making a simple pass. I'd venture to guess if Amare made a pass for a basket often enough we'd win many more games than we would with him trying to dribble through traffic.

Clyde & The Pearl · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
You are right, our realities are different considering you are tying to assert Amare is a post up player. He is not...period! He is a face to the basket mid range shooter and a finisher if given the ball while in motion. He is getting the ball 15 feet out because Felton is not feeding it to him properly. Again, if this was a coaching issue the same problems would have been happening in Phoenix.

Right, so it's all on the coach and has nothing to do with the players. :thumbsup: Thanks for proving who lives in reality and who doesn't! You do know that D'ant does not have a joystick and is not controlling what his players do each and every minute? You do know he does not freeze time, walk on to the court and whisper to CHandler to launch a three from 4 feet beyond the arc with 18 seconds left on the shotclock and a defender in his face..right?

You dont get it. The players play like the coach WANTS THEM TO. If the players deviated from his style then you could put it on the players. Let me give you a simple analogy so that maybe you can understand me a bit better.

Put Rondo on the Knicks. A notoriously bad shooter, but excellent at just about anything else you ask him to do on the floor. Instead of him playing to his strengths, which is penetrating and getting easy baskets for him self and his teammates. In this system he'd be hoisting up 3-4 threes a game. He'd be picking and rolling instead constantly instead of creating. Not winning basketball, no matter how you slice it. So in essence you couldnt put the blame on Rondo. Now do you understand?

So yes, D'ant employs HIS system because well it's HIS system! It's a system that lead to 4 straight 50+ win seasons, back to back 60 win seasons and back to back Western Conference Finals appearances. They were tied 2/2 against the SPurs going back to their home court when Amare and Barbosa (Ithink it was Barbosa) were suspended. Had that not happened they may have won that series and faced Lebrick and the Cavs in finals.

Dude that was an ENTIRELY different team. If this current team wins 50 with this coach playing this system I'll wash your car for you for the entire summer of 2011. It aint happening.

Red · Nov 12, 2010

On Spacing... MDA was the one who said it was poor, that wasn't my sole opinion in was a FACT that MDA pointed out.

On the system & 3's...
Trill you keep mentioning "open Three's or shots"... all I can say is this is actually the issue now isn't it? You & MDA seem to feel "an open three" is better than playing fundamental ball... it's not! Everyone knows that over time (yes over time of a game & season) YOUR TEAM HAS A GREATER SHOT OR HIGHER % OF SCORING CLOSER TO THE BASKET. The "open 3" will be there IF you exploit the low post. As homie mentioned earlier...

where is the plan B when these "open" shots aren't working? Can we guess why it makes more sense to exploit the interior w/ a beast like Amare? Here's why... closer shots have a higher % of going in, of being rebounded & put back, and of course DRAWING FOULS & DOUBLE TEAMS. This is the game. What MDA is stressing is what should be done at certain intervals but not over the course of the game. PERIOD. CLOSER CONTESTED SHOTS are better over the long run than "open three attempts". Who doesn't know this?

And finally here is all you have to ask yourself... "Is MDA getting the best out of our players, yes or no"?

We keep this "like Nash" sh*t going, and the players excuse going... after a while you have to say.. you know what, we can't keep getting new players til they're perfect for this imperfect system. I'll wait, but i've seen what I needed (yea I watched). With these "better than last yr" players, who aren't worried about where they'll be, I see the imperfections in this system and coaching philosophy... and the fact we play D actually makes it MORE obvious. Hello!

Clyde & The Pearl · Nov 12, 2010

Excellent points...

nyk_nyk · Nov 12, 2010

Red said:
On Spacing... MDA was the one who said it was poor, that wasn't my sole opinion in was a FACT that MDA pointed out.

On the system & 3's...
Trill you keep mentioning "open Three's or shots"... all I can say is this is actually the issue now isn't it? You & MDA seem to feel "an open three" is better than playing fundamental ball... it's not! Everyone knows that over time (yes over time of a game & season) YOUR TEAM HAS A GREATER SHOT OR HIGHER % OF SCORING CLOSER TO THE BASKET. The "open 3" will be there IF you exploit the low post. As homie mentioned earlier...

where is the plan B when these "open" shots aren't working? Can we guess why it makes more sense to exploit the interior w/ a beast like Amare? Here's why... closer shots have a higher % of going in, of being rebounded & put back, and of course DRAWING FOULS & DOUBLE TEAMS. This is the game. What MDA is stressing is what should be done at certain intervals but not over the course of the game. PERIOD. CLOSER CONTESTED SHOTS are better over the long run than "open three attempts". Who doesn't know this?

And finally here is all you have to ask yourself... "Is MDA getting the best out of our players, yes or no"?

We keep this "like Nash" sh*t going, and the players excuse going... after a while you have to say.. you know what, we can't keep getting new players til they're perfect for this imperfect system. I'll wait, but i've seen what I needed (yea I watched). With these "better than last yr" players, who aren't worried about where they'll be, I see the imperfections in this system and coaching philosophy... and the fact we play D actually makes it MORE obvious. Hello!

That is all i'm trying to say. It really is obvious, IF you know basketball.

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

Clyde & The Pearl said:
Dude that was an ENTIRELY different team. If this current team wins 50 with this coach playing this system I'll wash your car for you for the entire summer of 2011. It aint happening.

My point is that system can will produce desirable results. Further, where and how Amre is getting his touches is not a coaching issue but a PG issue. Plain and simple. If it were a coaching issue then Amare would have had the same struggles with the Suns.

jimkcchief88 · Nov 12, 2010

I made peace with the fact this team was going to stink back in the summer when we didn't get LJ. I made all these points back during the summer, got into it with TRILL, got called all out my name and everything else. Me I am not surprised at all how this team is playing. We lost 60% of our scoring and rebounding when we got rid of Lee/Harrington, and when I asked how we were replacing that the answer was: ohhh Gallo, ohhhh AR....., oooh STAT....

I was actually happy the way the team started out almost beating Portland and spanking the Bulls.

Now the team has fallen back to reality. We traded production for potential and so this is where we are. We traded one third tier PG(duhon) for another (felton), an all-star(lee) for the end of a bad teams bench(turiaf and co), and picked up 1a "superstar" from Phoenix. Not exactly a recipe for winning in a much improved East.

BTW, you wonder why AMARE is shooting so far away from the rim?? BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HOF PG NASH BREAKING DOWN THE DEFENSE AND CREATING EASY BUCKETS IN THE LANE. HELLO. I told y'all that during the off-season as well, that AMARE wouldn't be nearly as effective without NASH(see stockton/malone).

At this point, IT IS WHAT IT IS. This is a fun, young, athletic team to watch. THATS ABOUT IT. If they look down at thier jerseys and show a little KNICK pride, they may sneak into the playoffs. Forget about that 6th seed stuff OK. If not, they will struggle to win as many games as last year. At this point, just try to enjoy the season and hopefully David Lo-Pan(Walsh) can produce another big-free agent (Melo,CP3) moving forward. We have a decent foundation, but definatly far from being competetive.

And don't expect a leopard to change his spots either(D'ant). Mike loves that international style of play: no defense, no interior game, bigs camping outside and shooting doornobs, players whos names we can't pronounce.

Maybe this team will "gel", maybe not. But like I told y'all during the off-season: ANOTHER REBUILDING YEAR.

nyk_nyk · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
The system works if players can actually start hitting shots because it allows the court to be spread and Amare not to be doubled and tripled every time he gets the ball. Again, this is execution and consistency that SHOULD get better as the players gel.

Wrong. This is exactly what myself and others are trying to point out. You can't be consistently successful with an offense that works ONLY if you hit a high % of long range 3pt shots. Only the best shooters can run a % of 45% and over for a whole season and its probably very few of them (I'll let u look that one up). This offense is either hit or miss. There's no middle ground for success.

If players aren't hitting shots on a particular night then the system should be adjusted don't you think? Hitting 3s has never been consistent with most players, this is proven by the way we categorize a good 3pt shooter (north of 35%) and a great one (north of 40%). However, when talking about overall FG%, players can easily hit the 40%-50% mark because the shots get easier closer to the basket.

Now do you understand?
__________________

Red · Nov 12, 2010

If I may add...

I know I'm ranting but...

It seems we have narrowed down a few issues here:

1. This system preaches Quantity over Quality. You should work for QUALITY shots, not the other way around.

2. Quality shots means running plays to get the ball in a players hands where HE is comfy with. This system dictates the player (Like D Lee did) adjust to it, rather than has options to adjust to the players talent. And everyone is trying to change their games for it.

3. Trill keeps bringing up the distant past, we're bringing up the RECENT past.. there's a difference if only for the assumption that MAYBE THE LEAGUE HAS FIGURED THIS SYSTEM OUT AND CAUGHT UP TO IT. ever consider that?

4. We can't really have a go to guy, b/c this system doesn't have designs for "go to players.

5. Which I for one am leary about adding a Melo to b/c if u peep the system, where will he fit in? What difference will he make? What will he be camped out beyond the arc and hit .ore jumpers than Gallo? So what, u don't pay max $ for that.

6. Again I say this, is MDA getting the best out of his players?

7. Are we being beaten b/c of flaws in coaching like Dallas or beating ourselves like the Giants? There's a difference.

8. Would we be saying these things IF Phil Jackson was our coach? Yea we might lose.. but would we be saying these things? Like why are we shooting so many outside shots? Like why aren't we driving or why can't we run the most basic play the P&R? I don't think so. Its the system that's flawed.

Finally, on perpetual motion... yea I know movement is essential, but DESIGN is just as important. Movement to hoist shots by anyone and not a knock down shooter is useless as u can see. Defense is useless without an offensive system designed to the players strengths. Its a system issue, not a player issue. I've seen it work PERFECTLY and still notice its short-comings.

The entire league has noticed this too. Why do u think we have so many OPEN SHOTS?

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

On Spacing... MDA was the one who said it was poor, that wasn't my sole opinion in was a FACT that MDA pointed out.

Maybe he was speaking about a specific stretch in a game because I use my eyes and brain to make my determination. What I see is a team with good ball movement and good spacing that can't hit open shots whether from 3 or not.

On the system & 3's...
Trill you keep mentioning "open Three's or shots"... all I can say is this is actually the issue now isn't it? You & MDA seem to feel "an open three" is better than playing fundamental ball... it's not! Everyone knows that over time (yes over time of a game & season) YOUR TEAM HAS A GREATER SHOT OR HIGHER % OF SCORING CLOSER TO THE BASKET. The "open 3" will be there IF you exploit the low post. As homie mentioned earlier...

Uhm, any coach will tell there player to take an open shot. Any system will look like shit when it's players can't hit open shots...period. Yes, when they are bricking they should take it to the hole more but that is common sense that the player is responsible for. Every player thinks the next shot is going in.I guess Pat Riley can't coach evidenced by John Starks and his 1 for a million shooting that playoff game back in the day.

where is the plan B when these "open" shots aren't working? Can we guess why it makes more sense to exploit the interior w/ a beast like Amare? Here's why... closer shots have a higher % of going in, of being rebounded & put back, and of course DRAWING FOULS & DOUBLE TEAMS. This is the game. What MDA is stressing is what should be done at certain intervals but not over the course of the game. PERIOD. CLOSER CONTESTED SHOTS are better over the long run than "open three attempts". Who doesn't know this?

Plan B is the 3 point shot. Plan A is letting Amare score so you have it bass akwards. The problem is that Fleton and AMre have not developed that two man game yet so Amare gets doubled and turns it over or passes it out to an open shooter. Again, any coach will tell an NBA caliber player to take the open shot.

Listen, its easy to pick out flaws in anyone's system or any game when the team loses. D'ant is far from perfect and yes there is room for improvment. I am not arguing that D'ant or his system is GOAT and we should keep him no matter what. What I am advocating for is time to see how this new roster filled with young players develops. I am also trying to seperate the fair critisms of D'ant and his system form that of the generic talking points the biased national media has developed.

P.S. Kind of ironic that no one is really concentrating on D'ant and defense anymore save a few random comments. Could it be that the talking points many of you were regurgitating over the last year were wrong and it was indeed the players and not the coach that were responsible for the lack of D?

The Verdict is in...

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