KnicksFan4Realz
Benchwarmer
You also brought up the Book of Daniel specifically...let's talk about that moron.
The book of Daniel has become important to Christian theology because the gospel of Mark made constant reference to the book, calling Christ the son of man, and because Mark wrote an apocalypse borrowing the image of the Beast of Daniel's prophecy, which would appear again later in the Christian Apocalypse, the Book of Revelations.
In chapter 7 of the book, as in chapters 10 and 11, history is described up to the time of Maccabees. History is fine in Daniel until you reach the time of 2nd century, when suddenly the prophecies fall to pieces and become false (which is a pretty good indication of when the book was written). For example, in chapter 11, the historical description is accurate up to about 167 B.C.E.
Verses 40 to 45 are prophetic, and rather than referring to past events (accurately) the author takes a plunge into future prophecy. According to the prophecy Ptolemy, the ruler of Egypt at the time, would provoke a war and suffer heavy losses, at which time Antiochus would conquer Libya and Ethiopia and then die by the sea shore with no one to save him.
Immediately follows the scripture describing the furious rise of Michael the enraged Archangel, who is obviously the one responsible for doing in Antiochus (it is suggested by the juxtaposition of this verse against the verse describing the destruction of Antiochus, and in earlier passage where it is hinted that 'the beast' will die, but not by human hands).
Ptolemy did not begin another war with Antiochus, Antiochus did not proceed to conquer Libya or Ethiopia. Neither did he promptly drop dead at the sea shore, and, as is obvious, neither did the archangel Michael become so provoked by Antiochus defilement of the Jerusalem temple that the end of the world took place. Because the author was accurately describing history up to about 167 B.C.E. and then became a dismal failure from that point on we can be fairly certain that the author wrote the composition around 167.
Daniel Chapter 11 opens by describing Alexander the Great and the breakup and division of his empire after his death between his four generals. Verses 5 and 6 refer to Ptolemy and Selecus (who is the plotter behind the scenes). The passages then describe the alliance between Ptolemy II (the King of the South - Egypt) and Antiochus II (the King of the North - the Selucid Greeks). Ptolemy gave his daughter Bernice in marriage to Antiochus but they were all brought to ruin by the plotting of Laodice, the mother of Selecus II. Verses 7 and 8 describe the victorious war of Ptolemy III, as power continued to see saw between the two warring empires. In verse 9 , Selecus II, brought to power with the help of his scheming mother, attempted to pay back Egypt in 242 B.C.E. but suffered defeat.
The sons described in verse 10 are Selecus III and Antiochus III. Verses 11 to 13 describe Antiochus' defeat at the hands of Ptolemy IV at Raphia and the subsequent triumph of Antiochus over the Egyptians at Banias. (It seems these two countries were always taking turns crushing each other on the battlefield.) Revolt in Egypt against Ptolemy V are then related in verse 14 , and then the next Egyptian campaign of Antiochus III is described, culminating in a peace treaty once again sealed by the marriage of Antiochus' daughter to Ptolemy.
In verses 18 and 19 Antiochus is foiled by the Romans who thwart his plans to capture Asia Minor, and instead Antiochus was forced back, plundering as he went, and he died at Elymais. Selecus IV, his successor sent a tax man into Palestine to sack the treasury of the temple, without success (verse 20).
And finally starting at verses 21 through 45 we arrive at the time of the Maccabees, and also the time of the notorious 'beast' of prophecy in Daniel, the notorious temple desecrator, the sacrilegious and insulting Antiochus IV . Verses 22 to 24 describe his conniving over the appointment to the office of high priest (and his toppling of Onias III, the high priest) and his campaign of plundering that followed. Verses 25 to 28 describe his campaign of 169 B.C.E. in which he invaded Egypt, and then on his return home to deal with intrigues brewing there, he stopped long enough to sack Jerusalem and plunder the treasury of the temple (a little like robbing the collection plate at a church - it wasn't for nothing that they started calling this guy 'the beast.').
Verses 29 to 31 describe his next campaign against Egypt and his forced withdrawal by intervention of ships from 'Kittim' (Cyprus). In a fury he attacked Jerusalem again in 167 B.C.E. (apparently being that type of sullen, bad tempered bully who kicks the dog when things don't turn out right. I suppose Jerusalem was easier to sack a second time than taking on those ships from Cyprus.) It was at this time that he set up 'the abomination that causes desolation' in the Jerusalem temple (an altar to heathen gods).
This act so enraged the Jewish people that it led directly to the Maccabean revolt (the references to persecution and resistance in verses 32 to 35 refer to this movement). Verses 36 to 45 describe his coming doom, for being so downright miserable and godless in all his ways. We can thus date this section of the book pretty accurately to sometime around 167 B.C.E. (it was written during the resistance movement to inspire the resistance fighters).
Let us do some math. There are a number of possible dates we could work with here. Let us try them all. Cyrus allowed the Jewish people to return in 538 B.C.E. Let us total up the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks, which gives us 483 years. This would bring us up to 55 B.C.E. So if Christ was born in 55 B.C.E. (which would make all the gospel accounts wrong) then at least we have something we can work with in Daniel. Let us try another date. Zerubabbel led the people starting in 521 B.C.E. This brings us to 38 B.C.E. No good.
Zerubabbel continued to lead until 485. If we use 485, that brings us to 2 B.C.E. That's better. Getting warm. How about we try this one out on Ezra-Nehemiah. (You should note that textual problems with these two manuscripts make dating the periods covered very problematic. For example we are first led to believe that Ezra preceded Nehemiah, and that they were separated by at least two decades, and thus were not contemporaries, while an alternate solution to the textual problems actually places Ezra after Nehemiah, which is a significant difference.)
One possible date for Nehemiah's rebuilding of the walls is 445 B.C.E. This brings us to 38 C.E. (if we just ignore the division of weeks and total everything up). That's interesting. Another possible date for Nehemiah's work - 404 B.C.E. Even worse. Now we are up to 79 C.E. That can't be right.
The book of Daniel has become important to Christian theology because the gospel of Mark made constant reference to the book, calling Christ the son of man, and because Mark wrote an apocalypse borrowing the image of the Beast of Daniel's prophecy, which would appear again later in the Christian Apocalypse, the Book of Revelations.
In chapter 7 of the book, as in chapters 10 and 11, history is described up to the time of Maccabees. History is fine in Daniel until you reach the time of 2nd century, when suddenly the prophecies fall to pieces and become false (which is a pretty good indication of when the book was written). For example, in chapter 11, the historical description is accurate up to about 167 B.C.E.
Verses 40 to 45 are prophetic, and rather than referring to past events (accurately) the author takes a plunge into future prophecy. According to the prophecy Ptolemy, the ruler of Egypt at the time, would provoke a war and suffer heavy losses, at which time Antiochus would conquer Libya and Ethiopia and then die by the sea shore with no one to save him.
Immediately follows the scripture describing the furious rise of Michael the enraged Archangel, who is obviously the one responsible for doing in Antiochus (it is suggested by the juxtaposition of this verse against the verse describing the destruction of Antiochus, and in earlier passage where it is hinted that 'the beast' will die, but not by human hands).
Ptolemy did not begin another war with Antiochus, Antiochus did not proceed to conquer Libya or Ethiopia. Neither did he promptly drop dead at the sea shore, and, as is obvious, neither did the archangel Michael become so provoked by Antiochus defilement of the Jerusalem temple that the end of the world took place. Because the author was accurately describing history up to about 167 B.C.E. and then became a dismal failure from that point on we can be fairly certain that the author wrote the composition around 167.
Daniel Chapter 11 opens by describing Alexander the Great and the breakup and division of his empire after his death between his four generals. Verses 5 and 6 refer to Ptolemy and Selecus (who is the plotter behind the scenes). The passages then describe the alliance between Ptolemy II (the King of the South - Egypt) and Antiochus II (the King of the North - the Selucid Greeks). Ptolemy gave his daughter Bernice in marriage to Antiochus but they were all brought to ruin by the plotting of Laodice, the mother of Selecus II. Verses 7 and 8 describe the victorious war of Ptolemy III, as power continued to see saw between the two warring empires. In verse 9 , Selecus II, brought to power with the help of his scheming mother, attempted to pay back Egypt in 242 B.C.E. but suffered defeat.
The sons described in verse 10 are Selecus III and Antiochus III. Verses 11 to 13 describe Antiochus' defeat at the hands of Ptolemy IV at Raphia and the subsequent triumph of Antiochus over the Egyptians at Banias. (It seems these two countries were always taking turns crushing each other on the battlefield.) Revolt in Egypt against Ptolemy V are then related in verse 14 , and then the next Egyptian campaign of Antiochus III is described, culminating in a peace treaty once again sealed by the marriage of Antiochus' daughter to Ptolemy.
In verses 18 and 19 Antiochus is foiled by the Romans who thwart his plans to capture Asia Minor, and instead Antiochus was forced back, plundering as he went, and he died at Elymais. Selecus IV, his successor sent a tax man into Palestine to sack the treasury of the temple, without success (verse 20).
And finally starting at verses 21 through 45 we arrive at the time of the Maccabees, and also the time of the notorious 'beast' of prophecy in Daniel, the notorious temple desecrator, the sacrilegious and insulting Antiochus IV . Verses 22 to 24 describe his conniving over the appointment to the office of high priest (and his toppling of Onias III, the high priest) and his campaign of plundering that followed. Verses 25 to 28 describe his campaign of 169 B.C.E. in which he invaded Egypt, and then on his return home to deal with intrigues brewing there, he stopped long enough to sack Jerusalem and plunder the treasury of the temple (a little like robbing the collection plate at a church - it wasn't for nothing that they started calling this guy 'the beast.').
Verses 29 to 31 describe his next campaign against Egypt and his forced withdrawal by intervention of ships from 'Kittim' (Cyprus). In a fury he attacked Jerusalem again in 167 B.C.E. (apparently being that type of sullen, bad tempered bully who kicks the dog when things don't turn out right. I suppose Jerusalem was easier to sack a second time than taking on those ships from Cyprus.) It was at this time that he set up 'the abomination that causes desolation' in the Jerusalem temple (an altar to heathen gods).
This act so enraged the Jewish people that it led directly to the Maccabean revolt (the references to persecution and resistance in verses 32 to 35 refer to this movement). Verses 36 to 45 describe his coming doom, for being so downright miserable and godless in all his ways. We can thus date this section of the book pretty accurately to sometime around 167 B.C.E. (it was written during the resistance movement to inspire the resistance fighters).
Let us do some math. There are a number of possible dates we could work with here. Let us try them all. Cyrus allowed the Jewish people to return in 538 B.C.E. Let us total up the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks, which gives us 483 years. This would bring us up to 55 B.C.E. So if Christ was born in 55 B.C.E. (which would make all the gospel accounts wrong) then at least we have something we can work with in Daniel. Let us try another date. Zerubabbel led the people starting in 521 B.C.E. This brings us to 38 B.C.E. No good.
Zerubabbel continued to lead until 485. If we use 485, that brings us to 2 B.C.E. That's better. Getting warm. How about we try this one out on Ezra-Nehemiah. (You should note that textual problems with these two manuscripts make dating the periods covered very problematic. For example we are first led to believe that Ezra preceded Nehemiah, and that they were separated by at least two decades, and thus were not contemporaries, while an alternate solution to the textual problems actually places Ezra after Nehemiah, which is a significant difference.)
One possible date for Nehemiah's rebuilding of the walls is 445 B.C.E. This brings us to 38 C.E. (if we just ignore the division of weeks and total everything up). That's interesting. Another possible date for Nehemiah's work - 404 B.C.E. Even worse. Now we are up to 79 C.E. That can't be right.