Talks finally going the right direction...

Weissenberg

Grid or Riot
The choice the owners have left the plyers is: or you get 50/50 and the hard cap without any exceptions or 47% of the BRI and some concessions on a couple of system issues. I'd certainly enjoy both parties agree on the terms you noticed, but I doubt it's possible. The union get what the owners are willing to give them, the 50/50 split which is for many teams at least a break even and the hard cap. It's a take it or leave it (and starve) proposal for the players and a win-win situation for the owners. The sooner the players realize they have gotten into a dead end street the better.
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
Kiyaman's right - this isn't the same world. There are VERY FEW people in the world who can play NBA ball. It's not like working at a Wal-Mart where you have to accept a low wage simply because if you don't they'll just find someone else to do it instead cause anybody can do that job.

The NBA can't just take all of its players and replace them.

THIS is the reason why the NBPA will not accept a 50/50 split. Anyone with money can be an owner, but you have to be extrordinary to make it into the NBA (for the most part). Any success the league has will always be attributed to the players.

There's a reason why most nationally televised games feature teams with all-stars/superstars... they drive the ratings! Yes, the same ratings that allow the NBA to get those billion dollar television deals from ESPN, TNT and NBC. I want the season to start yesterday but I understand what they are fighting for.

Owners and players are not equal partners in this money machine.
 

paris401

Starter
Anyone with money can be an owner

so the answer is let the players who have been in the league for a few years and have had made some $$$... like the kobes/melo's/kg's/amare's/etc start their own league, and they can pay the players 53 or 55 or 80% of the $$$...

it's pretty simple...
 

Weissenberg

Grid or Riot
The most important bargaining session yet in the ongoing labor strife is set to begin at 4 p.m. today in a Manhattan hotel. Without movement by the two sides this weekend, it’s likely there will be no NBA basketball in 2011 and the entire 2011-12 season could be in jeopardy.
Positions on both sides are starting to harden. Many owners, who met among themselves this morning at 10 a.m., are expected to push to have the 50-50 split offer for basketball-related revenue taken off the table if the players refuse to accept it.
On the players side, some union members are talking decertification of the players association if the owners can’t meet their desire for 52 percent of BRI. Players also refuse to accept contract structuring and limitations that would be like a hard salary cap. Decertification would allow the players to sue on antitrust grounds, meaning the season likely would be lost. Meanwhile, the $4 billion BRI pie already has shrunk with the cancellation of all the games scheduled for November.
One ray of hope: Federal mediator George H. Cohen rejoins the collective bargaining, which could bring a calming influence.
 

tiger0330

Legend
The NY Times has a better report of the lockout than Yahoo. Doesn't look good, they made progress on the BRI but the system issues seem to be going nowhere. I have to agree that free agency will be limited with some of these gimmicks the league wants to impose on luxury tax paying teams, like a repeater tax, no sign and trades or MLEs. The sides are really close on the BRI but the system changes will have a negative impact on free agency and salaries for every NBA player. I don't see the players going for this deal, giving up 7% in revenues and getting future contracts cut by ~20% with this deal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/s...talks-with-mediator.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp
 

Weissenberg

Grid or Riot
The players would be just a bunch of knuckleheads if they didn't the accept the league's proposal. They seem to be stuck in a kind of unreal world they've imagined themselves where they'd get their 51% (or even 57%!) plus tons of concessions that would allow them to make more and more big bucks, so they could wipe their asses with $100,000 bills. How the **** dare they say they feel sorry for arena workers, vendors and another people whose lives are affected by this lockout? They don't give a shit about those people and they don't give a shit about us, the fans. Every time I see Fisher or Hunter speaking I see those dollar signs in their eyes. I apologize for my language, but these greedy bitches make me sick...
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
The player's won't get a better deal, for sure. But, I understand their frustrations. The only reason people watch the NBA is because of the players. With a regular company, management and Chief Executives make the decisions that drive business and make money. Not with sports teams. The owners sit on their fat butts and let the players derive the income for them.

The players have conceded on every point. The owners have not. They got what they needed to become profitable, asked for more, and when the players gave it to them, they asked for more. The Players went from 57 million to 52, to 51. The owners then said, no, come down to 50, with a BS 49-51 ban, and then we are going to make sure we come down on all system issues, as well.

AGAIN, the players, if they want a season, are at the owner's mercy, but there may be a time where the players have to draw a line in the sand and say, "we will not be steamrolled by strong-arm negotiation tactics."

Remember. There will be another CBA after this, and the owners will again try to push for more concessions from the Players. At one point and time, the Players will have to be willing to miss an entire season. Maybe it is this time. Maybe not.
 

smokes

Huge Member
THIS is the reason why the NBPA will not accept a 50/50 split. Anyone with money can be an owner, but you have to be extrordinary to make it into the NBA (for the most part). Any success the league has will always be attributed to the players.

There's a reason why most nationally televised games feature teams with all-stars/superstars... they drive the ratings! Yes, the same ratings that allow the NBA to get those billion dollar television deals from ESPN, TNT and NBC. I want the season to start yesterday but I understand what they are fighting for.

Owners and players are not equal partners in this money machine.

You said it yourself right there, the reason most nationally televised games feature teams with all stars/superstars... So where do you think most of the money is going? Yes to those teams with all stars and superstars.

I don't really see how people can't understand that the smaller market owners have every right to push for the best deal possible. Running a business at a loss is a totally pointless exercise.

I really can't believe the players haven't made a deal yet. They got their 51 percent, the NBA made a lot of concessions. Yet they still aren't willing.

This feels like a battle of ego's at this point.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
You said it yourself right there, the reason most nationally televised games feature teams with all stars/superstars... So where do you think most of the money is going? Yes to those teams with all stars and superstars.

I don't really see how people can't understand that the smaller market owners have every right to push for the best deal possible. Running a business at a loss is a totally pointless exercise.

I really can't believe the players haven't made a deal yet. They got their 51 percent, the NBA made a lot of concessions. Yet they still aren't willing.

This feels like a battle of ego's at this point.

Wait, Smokes, what concessions did the NBA make? The 51 you are discussing is not a true 51. The 51 you pointed out is almost impossible for the players to get. They presented a proposal that was essentially 50%. If the players were to get 51%, it would take the NBA beating projections by 20%. That is practically impossible.

The loss of the "hard cap" was not a concession. It was a non-starter. All I've seen is the players concede, conceded, concede, and the NBA owners refuse to even try.

If you want a great article on this all, you can find it here:

Two Economists Explain the NBA Lockout
www.grantland.com

Why don’t the players settle?
Perhaps because they have done so well in the past, it’s hard for the players to accept that the owners are dead set on hammering them this time. They feel, correctly, that they have been making all the concessions. Imagine trying to redo your “chores deal” with your spouse, with one side giving in on every negotiating point. As human beings, we are programmed to reject one-sided deals, even when surrender might be the rational choice.
 

SSj4Wingzero

All Star
There's also the fact that there's much more at stake than simply basketball-related revenue.

When LeBron James joined Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh in Miami, I predicted that the CBA was going to run into problems because of the forming of superteams that would leave the small-market teams (Jordan's Bobcats, Paul Allen's TrailBlazers, and so on.) in jeopardy because, simply, there's no way they can draw the Melo/Amar'e teamups or the Wade/LeBron/Bosh trio.

The hard-line owners want to keep the league competitive and their franchises afloat. Life is great for us Knicks fans because like it or not our franchise is never going to have to face the possibility of contraction, but the owners of small-market teams are fighting so hard on this CBA because they don't want to imagine the possibility of the NBA season essentially being a LA vs. NY vs. Miami year-long battle with the other teams just losing for the hell of it. They're fighting the battle on BRI because they know that if they give the players an even larger portion of the BRI then their franchises are going to collapse due to lack of competition.
 

smokes

Huge Member
From the very same article:

Is the owners? offer fair? Not really.

Should the players take it? Yes.

Will the owners give in and up the ante? Very unlikely.

Will the players be rational and take what is on the plate? We can only hope so.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
The players would be just a bunch of knuckleheads if they didn't the accept the league's proposal. They seem to be stuck in a kind of unreal world they've imagined themselves where they'd get their 51% (or even 57%!) plus tons of concessions that would allow them to make more and more big bucks, so they could wipe their asses with $100,000 bills. How the **** dare they say they feel sorry for arena workers, vendors and another people whose lives are affected by this lockout? They don't give a shit about those people and they don't give a shit about us, the fans. Every time I see Fisher or Hunter speaking I see those dollar signs in their eyes. I apologize for my language, but these greedy bitches make me sick...


Your language is excused....Im hungry for some NBA-ballin toooo. however

Im sure all the NBA veteran-players know the 50-50 split will do more
harm than good to the NBA competitiveness within the next 5 seasons.
The NBA competitiveness was very low for two seasons (2007-9), and
was picked up to its highest level of competitiveness in the millenium in
the 2010-11 season. I am looking for these young-players (draft picks
from the last 4 years) to have a big-reason $$$ to perform hungry to
stop the Miami Big-3 from having a 50+ win season the next 5 years.
That will not happen with a 50-50 split with a hardcap and a super-luxury tax.

The ratio of the previous BRI 57% may have been 3% to high. however
There is no excuse for "owners" (GM) to give out contracts that are twice the
worth of a players performance/or to trade for players (Arenas, Peja) that has
consistently showed they're only worth 25% of their high
contract worth.

Some players are worth every penny of their salary! not all.
We do have players like Landry Fields who rookie performance was worth
$2M or $3M lastseason (underpaid at $800).
We do have veteran FA (Miami Big-3) that will be worth all 6 years of their
contracts....
This is a sport.....where owners have to invest in veteran players or an
ex-player Patrick Ewing to train D.Howard into a superstar to sell out stadiums.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
There's also the fact that there's much more at stake than simply basketball-related revenue.

When LeBron James joined Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh in Miami, I predicted that the CBA was going to run into problems because of the forming of superteams that would leave the small-market teams (Jordan's Bobcats, Paul Allen's TrailBlazers, and so on.) in jeopardy because, simply, there's no way they can draw the Melo/Amar'e teamups or the Wade/LeBron/Bosh trio.

The hard-line owners want to keep the league competitive and their franchises afloat. Life is great for us Knicks fans because like it or not our franchise is never going to have to face the possibility of contraction, but the owners of small-market teams are fighting so hard on this CBA because they don't want to imagine the possibility of the NBA season essentially being a LA vs. NY vs. Miami year-long battle with the other teams just losing for the hell of it. They're fighting the battle on BRI because they know that if they give the players an even larger portion of the BRI then their franchises are going to collapse due to lack of competition.

Very good point....but OKC, Bulls, Grizzlies, Blazers, and Hawks proved small-
market teams could be competitive with a change of revenue, or change in
headcoach/or GM to have the franchise on the same-page.
It is true about the small-market Cleveland Cavs grossing big-market $$$ the
past 7 years having Lebron James jersey for twice the price of Kobe Jersey.
Its also true about the CBA negotiation being ended early this summer if
Lebron wouldve resign with the Cavs, or the Cavs woulded traded Lebron to Miami.
We all witness the hostile Cavs owner after the Lebron-Decision.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
There's also the fact that there's much more at stake than simply basketball-related revenue.

When LeBron James joined Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh in Miami, I predicted that the CBA was going to run into problems because of the forming of superteams that would leave the small-market teams (Jordan's Bobcats, Paul Allen's TrailBlazers, and so on.) in jeopardy because, simply, there's no way they can draw the Melo/Amar'e teamups or the Wade/LeBron/Bosh trio.

The hard-line owners want to keep the league competitive and their franchises afloat. Life is great for us Knicks fans because like it or not our franchise is never going to have to face the possibility of contraction, but the owners of small-market teams are fighting so hard on this CBA because they don't want to imagine the possibility of the NBA season essentially being a LA vs. NY vs. Miami year-long battle with the other teams just losing for the hell of it. They're fighting the battle on BRI because they know that if they give the players an even larger portion of the BRI then their franchises are going to collapse due to lack of competition.

You know, I read an interesting article that the owners may be doing the exact opposite with all of their limitations. The idea being that they are limiting the choices where a player can go, so that the players are going to try and flock to the large market areas for better sponsorship deals, and then try to get Larry bird rights with those teams (as I don't believe the CBA is affecting that particular exception).
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
Stern and the owners have proceeded with the ultimatum approach. This is far from negotiating in good faith and essentially puts the responsibility of losing more games in the players' hands. It doesn't appear that the players will accept the latest deal and it only gets worse from there with Stern threatening to counter with a more unfavorable deal.

I was optimistic before but I don't have any faith of an NBA season at this point. If decertification happens then not only will this season be lost but there's no guarantee about next season either. I wish some multi billionaires would step in and suggest a new and improved league. To hell with the NBA.
 

Paul1355

All Star
Stern and the owners have proceeded with the ultimatum approach. This is far from negotiating in good faith and essentially puts the responsibility of losing more games in the players' hands. It doesn't appear that the players will accept the latest deal and it only gets worse from there with Stern threatening to counter with a more unfavorable deal.

I was optimistic before but I don't have any faith of an NBA season at this point. If decertification happens then not only will this season be lost but there's no guarantee about next season either. I wish some multi billionaires would step in and suggest a new and improved league. To hell with the NBA.

the owners have had the leverage since day 1, the union has to cave or they will lose the season. From a PR standpoint, the players will take the bigger hit from the fans becaus everyone knows the NBA has the leverage but the players union just keeps rejecting deals. We know Stern is a lier and Fisher has made this known, but its besides the point because he has the leverage and all the power. Decertifying brings out the guns but doesn't assure a victory for the players. They can still lose the season AND lose the battle, and the fans will hate them even more for waisting our time.
This is american business, the employers rule, not the enployeees unless they all go on a strike, which is not the case. Kobe Bryant is willing to accept 50-50 and others are too, they just want to play. It;s like Hunter is trying to fight against the inevitable.
 
the owners have had the leverage since day 1, the union has to cave or they will lose the season. From a PR standpoint, the players will take the bigger hit from the fans becaus everyone knows the NBA has the leverage but the players union just keeps rejecting deals. We know Stern is a lier and Fisher has made this known, but its besides the point because he has the leverage and all the power. Decertifying brings out the guns but doesn't assure a victory for the players. They can still lose the season AND lose the battle, and the fans will hate them even more for waisting our time.
This is american business, the employers rule, not the enployeees unless they all go on a strike, which is not the case. Kobe Bryant is willing to accept 50-50 and others are too, they just want to play. It;s like Hunter is trying to fight against the inevitable.


I can't tell you how much I hate the ****ing players union right now! To hell with Billy asshole Hunter and Derek the self proclaimed boss Fisher!

50-50 is a fair deal, they still get absurd paychecks for playing some damn basketball, others do this in their free time besides going to work from 9-5 for ****s sake!

Accept the deal you greedy bastards!
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
the owners have had the leverage since day 1, the union has to cave or they will lose the season. From a PR standpoint, the players will take the bigger hit from the fans becaus everyone knows the NBA has the leverage but the players union just keeps rejecting deals. We know Stern is a lier and Fisher has made this known, but its besides the point because he has the leverage and all the power. Decertifying brings out the guns but doesn't assure a victory for the players. They can still lose the season AND lose the battle, and the fans will hate them even more for waisting our time.
This is american business, the employers rule, not the enployeees unless they all go on a strike, which is not the case. Kobe Bryant is willing to accept 50-50 and others are too, they just want to play. It;s like Hunter is trying to fight against the inevitable.

The union has gone down from 57% to now 51% and it still wasn't enough for the owners. They've been hard set on 50/50 from the start and have done no negotiating on that issue.
 
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