Where Art Thou Amar'eo?

TR1LL10N · Apr 7, 2011

smokes said:
Did you watch the game though?

He also had 5 rebounds, +9 efficiency (highest on the team) and Holiday was in no way abusing Billups :lol: he might have got past him once all game that I saw...

Yes I watched the game. I was waiting for someone to bring up his +9 efficiency. The reason for that is he got injured before the Sixers went on their run and came back. Further Holiday got passed Billups several times but really thats ancillary considering Holiday gets by most defenders. That said he certainly was not the biggest reason for our intial lead regardless of his +/-.

I'm not saying the lack of PG didn't hurt Amare, of course it did. I'm saying our lack of a PG to get Amare the ball was due to Billups getting hurt, and TD not playing with any kind of confidence in the 4th quarter last night.

Right so you agree that Amare needs a PG to get him the ball to be effective especially in crunch time. Now one must look at Billups stats to see if he has a history that would make you feel he is that PG. I see 5+ assists with 2+ turnovers a game and a shoot first "Mr. Bigshot" PG, not a PG interested in getting Amare shots. That is not to say he won't pass to Amare or put up big assists on occasion.

smokes · Apr 7, 2011

TR1LL10N said:
Yes I watched the game. I was waiting for someone to bring up his +9 efficiency. The reason for that is he got injured before the Sixers went on their run and came back. Further Holiday got passed Billups several times but really thats ancillary considering Holiday gets by most defenders. That said he certainly was not the biggest reason for our intial lead regardless of his +/-.

Yes it was before they went on their run Melo was also not in the game for most of that run yet he was our leading scorer and still has less efficiency.

I didn't say he was the biggest reason I said "one of the main reasons" in fact it was Billups running the offense combined with Melo's 3rd quarter bombing of 3 pointers that led to our largest lead.

Right so you agree that Amare needs a PG to get him the ball to be effective especially in crunch time. Now one must look at Billups stats to see if he has a history that would make you feel he is that PG. I see 5+ assists with 2+ turnovers a game and a shoot first "Mr. Bigshot" PG, not a PG interested in getting Amare shots. That is not to say he won't pass to Amare or put up big assists on occasion.

This is why I wonder if you watched last nights game or any of the 5 game win-streak games where Billups has been balling. Why "must" one look at Billups stats rather than look at how he is playing now with the chemistry and familiarity builing on this Knicks team?

You do know that Billups style of playing PG is not a scoring style nor a pass first style. He is an all-around PG who is adept in both scoring, passing and many other things.

The 5 assists 2 turnovers stat being thrown around will never mean anything to me. Billups has always averaged 2-2.5 turnovers per game (as does every PG who handles the ball that much) even when his assists were up at 8+ per game for the season, his turnovers were still at 2.

The whole assist:turnover ratio statistic does not tell a great deal since Billups does not look for "assists" he looks for good passes. Be that a pass-to-assist, a pass into an ISO, whatever. A much better stat would be time spent handling the ball vs turnovers which I can tell you would be consistent with most other top quality PG's in this league.

Also Trill, I can't believe we turned this into another Billups thread :lol:

Crazy⑧s · Apr 8, 2011

smokes said:
I don't get this thread at all. The OP is a well put together thread asking why we don't utilize Amare effectively especially in late game situations (effectively by running the occasional play for him).

Then the replies are talking about, bashing Amare, Amare being injured, and not having a pass first PG...

Ok so. This thread was no way bashing Amare.

Heyzoos! Thanks for being the only person who opened the thread, read it, took consideration and commented on it's content.

I really shouldn't have bothered.

-He needs a PG to score?
-He was injured?
-I bashed him?

Can everyone read it again please?

ballbegood · Apr 8, 2011

To me it looked like a combination of things:
-He's tired. and/or possibly hurt
-Defenders are clogging the lanes because of Melo. Ironically this opens up lanes for shooters (TD and of course its gave Melo the recent surge of 3s)
-Billups is slow/hurt and can't attack the basket. In fact, have we even seen a Pick'n'Roll in crunch time lately?
-Melo's getting it done right? I'd be happy for Stat to focus on D in crunch time.

TR1LL10N · Apr 8, 2011

smokes said:
Yes it was before they went on their run Melo was also not in the game for most of that run yet he was our leading scorer and still has less efficiency.

I didn't say he was the biggest reason I said "one of the main reasons" in fact it was Billups running the offense combined with Melo's 3rd quarter bombing of 3 pointers that led to our largest lead.

He was not even "one of the main reasons" he contributed almost nothing other than bringing the ball up passed half court. If just being in the game and not making mistakes while not contributing actual stats makes you "one of the main reasons" for a teams success I need to go and play in the NBA.

This is why I wonder if you watched last nights game or any of the 5 game win-streak games where Billups has been balling. Why "must" one look at Billups stats rather than look at how he is playing now with the chemistry and familiarity builing on this Knicks team?

I am always puzzled by this line of thinking since stats measure the impact a player has on the game. Sure there are intangibles such as blocking out, leadership or deflecting shots that can make an impact but Billups wasn't really doing that and it certainly did not stand out. A PG lives and dies by his stats since his main job are stat related contributions such as assists, steals and points.

You do know that Billups style of playing PG is not a scoring style nor a pass first style. He is an all-around PG who is adept in both scoring, passing and many other things.

Of course I know this and is the reason I have concluded that he is not the right fit for our roster. One of our franchise players requires the ball fed to him while in motion in order to maximize his play. There is a place for Billups and that type of PG but not on every team. Yes, he has pedigree and yes he brings leadership but that can be done on the bench as a coach. What this team needs is someone who defends consistently and who can get Amare and Melo the ball in a fluid offensive scheme. There is no reason with all the firepower this team has that our offense ever sputters yet we often go long stretches struggling to score. This phenomenon will be magnified in the playoffs IMHO. Some questions:

Do you think the reason Fileds has struggled recently has anything to do with the production coming from our PG's?

Do you think we are best suited having our PG taking crunch time jumpers over our stars?

The 5 assists 2 turnovers stat being thrown around will never mean anything to me. Billups has always averaged 2-2.5 turnovers per game (as does every PG who handles the ball that much) even when his assists were up at 8+ per game for the season, his turnovers were still at 2.

No one doubts Billups had a few elite years in his prime. The fact that he is averaging the same amount of turnovers with 5 assists as he did when he almost had 9 assists should be a HUGE red flag that Billups is a mere shadow of his former self. Simply put, 5 assists is pathetic especially when you consider that all year he has played on the 1st and 2nd highest scoring teams.

The whole assist:turnover ratio statistic does not tell a great deal since Billups does not look for "assists" he looks for good passes. Be that a pass-to-assist, a pass into an ISO, whatever. A much better stat would be time spent handling the ball vs turnovers which I can tell you would be consistent with most other top quality PG's in this league.

This would be true if we did not have Amare but as I stated before in order to maximize Amare he must get the ball in motion to finish. Amare is probably only second to Lebron in his ability to finish and it would be a crime not to try and exploit that gift. We played our best ball this year when Amare and Felton were grooving together.

Also Trill, I can't believe we turned this into another Billups thread :lol:

My bad.

Blumatic · Apr 8, 2011

I gotta give him credit.....He is looking for Melo and he is finding him. STAT is looking for his teammates more than Melo is.

STAT is built like Kevin Garnett, he really needs to add KG's game to his repertoire.

Other than that, I am very impressed with STAT letting Melo do his thing. STAT has a big ego but he is a great teammate. He is still the heart and soul of the organization (aside from Donnie Walsh). He is quick to put Melo in his place as well.

Crazy⑧s · Apr 8, 2011

platnumn said:
He was HURT! If he didn't turn his ankle, sure I feel you. But they're saying he's even questionable for tomorrow's game against NJ, so it must have been enough to keep him in check during those last 6 min.

People on here are worse than the media, I swear if some of you wrote for the papers, we would be DOOMED. That's what online forums are for though!! =)

Why do I bother asking direct questions about people's opinions?

Crazy⑧s · Apr 8, 2011

TR1LL10N said:
This would be true if we did not have Amare but as I stated before in order to maximize Amare he must get the ball in motion to finish. Amare is probably only second to Lebron in his ability to finish and it would be a crime not to try and exploit that gift. We played our best ball this year when Amare and Felton were grooving together.

Hooray for boobies!

So can we draw up a play now? How about a play for STAT & Melo?

Why am I the only person waving this banner?

in order to maximize Amare he must get the ball in motion to finish.

That's preposterous.

TR1LL10N · Apr 9, 2011

Crazy⑧s;173561 said:
That's preposterous.

How so kimosabe?

iSaYughh · Apr 10, 2011

Almost missed this gem of an op when logging into QueensOnline..

Few general things:

*Amare with a sky hook...shit, that sounds incredible, and can you just imagine him using that. Beautiful to consider.

*Amare being best in motion, as a dynamic/dominant inside finisher. Completely agree, thats where he is best: evidenced by that making him, truly, the most dominant and efficient inside scorer in the NBA. When that is the focal point.

That aside...I'm still not sure why he can't get some plays run for him before he gets a sky hook, has chemistry and an able pg to feed him like he likes, etc.

He does seem to be passing a lot more, but that still doesn't truly reflect actual plays run for him to score.

My guess at the answer...

MDA's offensive pedigree and wheelhouse is based off motion, ball movement, and crisp dynamic offensive plays drawn off that. I.e. How Amare has been fed and eaten his NBA life under MDA, and half of this season.

Melo, and especially Billups, have forced things to adjust. N?e starting big time players. Enough said.

Slow down, more iso's, less ball movement. Aka the antithesis of what has facilitated Amare's bread n butter.

Now, you may ask, well, WTF, give him more post-up/iso plays.

1) Amare isn't most readily able to play like that
2) MDA isn't most readily able to further re-construct, define, and slow the entire offensive machine and game flow
3) MDA is hoping to make Amare more efficient, and have him simply put take a backseat for now to Melo (and Billups), till further notice. Pass more, utilize his mid range more, score efficiently with relatively low volume.

Why Amare simply can't continue what he was doing prior, and through his career...even accepting more limited volume of opportunities and shots...is, Id conclude, more evidence that the new roster upheaval is still finding it's way as a cohesive unit (understandable), and that Billups isn't a good PG for Amare. MDA didn't suddenly fall out of love w his favorite offensive player, and the players favorite way of scoring which MDA himself developed.

If that reflects MDA, re: the cohesion, changing Billups or changing Amare....it does. But those aren't puzzles you'd normally expect a coach n team to resolve in a few weeks, especially mid season and during the heat of a playoff battle. Surely, tho, they must be resolved, one way or another.

Whether that means Billups isn't a good PG for us....idk, there are other factors -- good n bad -- that'd have to be evaluated.

smokes · Apr 10, 2011

C'mon really let's stop the silliness with Billups really.

If MDA can design plays around David Lee with Duhon distributing, he can damn sure make a play for Amare when it's Billups dishing.

Amare and Billups running a standard pick n roll looks scary enough in this offense. Coming up with a play or two to get Amare the ball in the paint heading towards the basket is not rocket science.

ronoranina · Apr 10, 2011

iSaYughh said:
Almost missed this gem of an op when logging into QueensOnline..

Few general things:

*Amare with a sky hook...shit, that sounds incredible, and can you just imagine him using that. Beautiful to consider.

*Amare being best in motion, as a dynamic/dominant inside finisher. Completely agree, thats where he is best: evidenced by that making him, truly, the most dominant and efficient inside scorer in the NBA. When that is the focal point.

That aside...I'm still not sure why he can't get some plays run for him before he gets a sky hook, has chemistry and an able pg to feed him like he likes, etc.

He does seem to be passing a lot more, but that still doesn't truly reflect actual plays run for him to score.

My guess at the answer...

MDA's offensive pedigree and wheelhouse is based off motion, ball movement, and crisp dynamic offensive plays drawn off that. I.e. How Amare has been fed and eaten his NBA life under MDA, and half of this season.

Melo, and especially Billups, have forced things to adjust. N?e starting big time players. Enough said.

Slow down, more iso's, less ball movement. Aka the antithesis of what has facilitated Amare's bread n butter.

Now, you may ask, well, WTF, give him more post-up/iso plays.

1) Amare isn't most readily able to play like that
2) MDA isn't most readily able to further re-construct, define, and slow the entire offensive machine and game flow
3) MDA is hoping to make Amare more efficient, and have him simply put take a backseat for now to Melo (and Billups), till further notice. Pass more, utilize his mid range more, score efficiently with relatively low volume.

Why Amare simply can't continue what he was doing prior, and through his career...even accepting more limited volume of opportunities and shots...is, Id conclude, more evidence that the new roster upheaval is still finding it's way as a cohesive unit (understandable), and that Billups isn't a good PG for Amare. MDA didn't suddenly fall out of love w his favorite offensive player, and the players favorite way of scoring which MDA himself developed.

If that reflects MDA, re: the cohesion, changing Billups or changing Amare....it does. But those aren't puzzles you'd normally expect a coach n team to resolve in a few weeks, especially mid season and during the heat of a playoff battle. Surely, tho, they must be resolved, one way or another.

Whether that means Billups isn't a good PG for us....idk, there are other factors -- good n bad -- that'd have to be evaluated.

Fantastic post dude!:winner: :thumbsup:

Where Art Thou Amar'eo?

TR1LL10N

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Crazy⑧s

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ballbegood

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TR1LL10N

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Blumatic

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