A Chauncey's Tale: Defense Is Player Effort

Not apocryphal "coaching brilliance", and a major metric of a NBA coach's excellence.

Sir Chauncey Billups,

"Most of defense is just effort...and being willing to do it."

Yawn. So simple. So obvious. But so essentially so to make plain fools of some and fact-based snipers of others.

:shooter:

Not true.

Everyone, including people reading/writing on a message board who have never played professional basketball, knows that the coach decides whether or not a player will try on the defensive end!

iSaYughh said:

Not apocryphal "coaching brilliance", and a major metric of a NBA coach's excellence.

Sir Chauncey Billups,

"Most of defense is just effort...and being willing to do it."

Yawn. So simple. So obvious. But so essentially so to make plain fools of some and fact-based snipers of others.

:shooter:

Click to expand...

He also said he has to ge used to "the defensive system" that's different than the one he was in in Denver.

Don't try so hard to be naive.

We can ALL prove ANYTHING is a im0pact of effort...
Just as its been proven different coaches implement different systems.

We played good D inspite of MDA. Chauncy, Melo, and Stat have more say so as MDA loses his value game by game.

Basically these vets seem to have taken it on themselves to improve defensively, Mike is just going to have to take a back seat.

And I have no complaints about that.

Regardless who deserves more credit for the defensive effort last night, we need to keep the effort and improve, becoming more consistent on the defensive end.

If the Knicks can do that then they will be a tough out in the playoffs this year and will be only a piece or two away from being a top title contender.

But when the players aren't putting in the effort and executing the system that some believe MDA has installed...who's responsible for making sure they get the job done?

Did anyone see the Lakers game yesterday when Phil pulled Pau aside as soon as the time out was granted and started letting him have it? What about a few weeks ago when coach Pops got in Duncan's face in the first Q and Richard Jefferson could be seen in the background with an "oh shit" look on his face. Then ask yourselves how many times you've seen D'Antoni coaching D on the sidelines or holding star players accountable.

Then also think back to the Iverson-Melo Nuggets and how erratic they were, remember that trade that they made with Detroit and the PG the Nuggets acquired. Remember the tangible results they saw because of that person and also the quote where George Karl said "he actually might have saved my job" thanks to the turn around the team made after said player got there.

Defense is a mixture of player effort and coaching. When players aren't giving the effort...it's the coaches job to set them straight. Occasionally you'll have the fortune of having a Chauncey who can be both vocal and lead by example, but that's if you're lucky. I don't think it's a coincidence that we had that kind of defensive effort against the Heat with Chauncey when our previous games with them were shootouts. What's the difference between now and then?

KBlack25 said:

Not true.

Everyone, including people reading/writing on a message board who have never played professional basketball, knows that the coach decides whether or not a player will try on the defensive end!

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Trying on defense has nothing to do with either coaches decisions (unless there is a reward or consequence) nor were our issues a matter of effort as you intimate.

Our issues stemmed from improper size, bad rotations, and ancillary effects of chucking quick low % shots.

Mda is forced to slow things down, forced to adhere to the "Stars" who now are running the show, and are now more valuable than he.

That's perfect. No longer is it Mda's way or the highway, as the org will get rid of him quicker than the stars. A humbling unforseen outcome, and suits supports and detractors alike.

John Madden never played in the NFL either. Nor did Belecheck or Parcells if I'm not mistaken. Obviously in terms of basketball, your experience is limited to television.

^^^^^^^^^^^Obviously in terms of basketball, your experience is limited to television.:teeth:

Red said:

Trying on defense has nothing to do with either coaches decisions (unless there is a reward or consequence) nor were our issues a matter of effort as you intimate.

Our issues stemmed from improper size, bad rotations, and ancillary effects of chucking quick low % shots.

Mda is forced to slow things down, forced to adhere to the "Stars" who now are running the show, and are now more valuable than he.

That's perfect. No longer is it Mda's way or the highway, as the org will get rid of him quicker than the stars. A humbling unforseen outcome, and suits supports and detractors alike.

John Madden never played in the NFL either. Nor did Belecheck or Parcells if I'm not mistaken. Obviously in terms of basketball, your experience is limited to television.

Click to expand...

I thought MDA had "no ability" to adapt...this according to you.

Further, your entire posts PROVES what I and others have said. The players dictate a lot of what the coach does/can do/what kind of defense we can play.

KBlack25 said:

I thought MDA had "no ability" to adapt...this according to you.

Further, your entire posts PROVES what I and others have said. The players dictate a lot of what the coach does/can do/what kind of defense we can play.

Click to expand...

Exactly, he doesn't even realize that he is now proving what all of us have been saying for 3 years. It's a complete flip flop with the one exception...his irrational hate for our coach.

What about OKC losing their defensive coach Ron Adams to the Bulls this offseason? The Thunder were a pretty stout defensive team last year under Adams' tutelage and he goes to join his friend Thibodeau in Chi-town, and look at that team's defense with those two combined.

But I guess OKC lost all of their will and decided not to give any more effort on the defensive end when Adams left? Cause the thing that jumped out to most people when the season began was how inept they were on the defensive end compared to last year.

I can't give the credit to D'Antoni when we've had 2+ seasons of him here, and suddenly he turns the defense around after he acquired Billups and Melo...who both happened to be preaching defense on their arrival. It wasn't their mindset and Billups' leadership...no...it was Mike D'Antoni....really?

KBlack25 said:

I thought MDA had "no ability" to adapt...this according to you.

Further, your entire posts PROVES what I and others have said. The players dictate a lot of what the coach does/can do/what kind of defense we can play.

Click to expand...

My entire post proves?

You know what, I truly respect you, but its obvious your a fan more than an experienced player.

Did you even know MDA like ever coach uses a defensive sytem, philosophy? Seriously did you? After you do some research and find out what that system & philosophy entails, then post, please.

If you have an avg system, better players will look better. That doesn't change the system. Sure better players will do better but no one needed KBlack to imform us of this. It still doesn't change the system. And yes I hold out hope Mda can adapt, and saidit many times. I have no choice.

We dd still get KILLED by Cleveland on the boards no more tha 2 days ago. Are you aware that rebounding is a defensive stat? So what happened?

Listen MDA will look better with better players hello we know this! But how will him being the highest paid coach look when his system is being run and changed by vets? Is that what the highest paid coach does? Fails to make young players better, but takes credit when vets take over.

Don't think so. So do we force middle or baseline. When is the switch necessary in our system? How do we appoach the p&r, and pop, hesitation drive? What's our transition scheme? Why do we lack positioning on the boards?
When is the weak side help used? How do we close out? When to trap? How do we defend the low post, do we front? Let me know.

Step your game up.

KBlack25 said:

I thought MDA had "no ability" to adapt...this according to you.

Further, your entire posts PROVES what I and others have said. The players dictate a lot of what the coach does/can do/what kind of defense we can play.

Click to expand...

I don't think Red is saying MDA is "adapting." I think he is saying the players are having a coup and MDA is not invited.

I posted this in the other thread, but Chauncey Billups made some statements to me that (while I wholeheartedly admit I'm reading between the lines on the statement) made it seem like he wasn't going to run D'Antoni's system.

Like I said in the other. We had three games thus far. Only one followed the MDA philosophy of "no defense, more possessions = wins." We lost that one.

Billups doesn't seem like he is going to stand for a lack of D on the team and he is making sure the others are doing it. You also have to remember that MDA, finally, finally, finally had a pure defensive practice...

It paid off. It would be the best thing that could happen to this team if D'Antoni lost his influence over the players and they started following Mr. Bigshot.

Red said:

My entire post proves?

You know what, I truly respect you, but its obvious your a fan more than an experienced player.

Did you even know MDA like ever coach uses a defensive sytem, philosophy? Seriously did you? After you do some research and find out what that system & philosophy entails, then post, please.

If you have an avg system, better players will look better. That doesn't change the system. Sure better players will do better but no one needed KBlack to imform us of this. It still doesn't change the system. And yes I hold out hope Mda can adapt, and saidit many times. I have no choice.

We dd still get KILLED by Cleveland on the boards no more tha 2 days ago. Are you aware that rebounding is a defensive stat? So what happened?

Listen MDA will look better with better players hello we know this! But how will him being the highest paid coach look when his system is being run and changed by vets? Is that what the highest paid coach does? Fails to make young players better, but takes credit when vets take over.

Don't think so. So do we force middle or baseline. When is the switch necessary in our system? How do we appoach the p&r, and pop, hesitation drive? What's our transition scheme? Why do we lack positioning on the boards?
When is the weak side help used? How do we close out? When to trap? How do we defend the low post, do we front? Let me know.

Step your game up.

Click to expand...

Every single "point" you make goes to exactly what I have consistently stated on this board:

That PLAYERS make a much bigger difference in-game than the coach.

I know you think you know what you are talking about, and you pose all these questions with basketball terminology to make yourself sound smarter.

Every answer to your question is, quite ultimately, the players...why we don't box out well, why we struggled with the pick and roll early in the season, how we play when we have to rely on instinct, etc.

But you yourself said MDA could not adapt. Now you are saying he is adapting...which is it?

You yourself said the coach matters in instilling defensive philosophy, but when we play good defense it is all the player's doing and none of the coach's...which is it?

MusketeerX said:

I don't think Red is saying MDA is "adapting." I think he is saying the players are having a coup and MDA is not invited.

I posted this in the other thread, but Chauncey Billups made some statements to me that (while I wholeheartedly admit I'm reading between the lines on the statement) made it seem like he wasn't going to run D'Antoni's system.

Like I said in the other. We had three games thus far. Only one followed the MDA philosophy of "no defense, more possessions = wins." We lost that one.

Billups doesn't seem like he is going to stand for a lack of D on the team and he is making sure the others are doing it. You also have to remember that MDA, finally, finally, finally had a pure defensive practice...

It paid off. It would be the best thing that could happen to this team if D'Antoni lost his influence over the players and they started following Mr. Bigshot.

Click to expand...

There isn't one credible source or person stating anything about a coup or that D'ant is somehow losing his power. The only people who are MAKING these things up are the ones confounded by a Knick team playing good defense while being coached by the supposed No D-antoni.

At this point it's like arguing the merits of atheism to the pope...

KBlack25 said:

Every single "point" you make goes to exactly what I have consistently stated on this board:

That PLAYERS make a much bigger difference in-game than the coach.

I know you think you know what you are talking about, and you pose all these questions with basketball terminology to make yourself sound smarter.

Every answer to your question is, quite ultimately, the players...why we don't box out well, why we struggled with the pick and roll early in the season, how we play when we have to rely on instinct, etc.

But you yourself said MDA could not adapt. Now you are saying he is adapting...which is it?

You yourself said the coach matters in instilling defensive philosophy, but when we play good defense it is all the player's doing and none of the coach's...which is it?

Click to expand...

I see you couldn't address any semi-technical questions. Case closed.

You see a coach can't keep saying give me more players,eventually he's got to work with what he has. My point is the more better players we get the more the value of Mda goes down. I'm cool with that, just like I'm cool with KNOWING this proves the gas you and everyone attempted to construe.

He's a genious that needed two major overhauls to go 2-1. Take it for what its worth.

Red said:

I see you couldn't address any semi-technical questions. Case closed.

You see a coach can't keep saying give me more players,eventually he's got to work with what he has. My point is the more better players we get the more the value of Mda goes down. I'm cool with that, just like I'm cool with KNOWING this proves the gas you and everyone attempted to construe.

He's a genious that needed two major overhauls to go 2-1. Take it for what its worth.

Click to expand...

You obviously didn't read...Why don't we box out? The players. Why did we struggle with the pick and roll? Chemistry between the players. Why do we play poor transition defense? The players, who at that point play on instinct.

To me, the answer to all your questions, in one way or another, is the players.

Red said:

He's a genious that needed two major overhauls to go 2-1. Take it for what its worth.

Click to expand...

Talk about spin...

We have a wining record for the entire season to date, not just 2-1. Further we beat the Heat once already prior to the second major overhaul. If anything, having major overhauls while still competing should be a testament to a coach getting everyone on track quickly. Meh, you are just an emotional hater, lashing out with insults and poor grammar. No worries! :thumbsup:

TR1LL10N said:

There isn't one credible source or person stating anything about a coup or that D'ant is somehow losing his power. The only people who are MAKING these things up are the ones confounded by a Knick team playing good defense while being coached by the supposed No D-antoni.

At this point it's like arguing the merits of atheism to the pope...

Click to expand...

Somethings you do have to make inferences in life, Trillion. Common sense, judgment, and intuition can get you far.

Billups said, "We know we can win games by scoring 108 points, but what we really need is to learn how to win games scoring 91 points."

Billups, in the games we won, purposely slowed down offensive sets and was the real leader we needed. I say after this next season, if he chooses to retire, we fire D'Antoni and hire him as coach.

Is the evidence circumstantial? Yes, but you rarely have direct evidence in real life (nor do I think Billups would just come out and say he doesn't like D'Antoni's ball). Billups, by being the player he is, is going to slow down the offense and work for the best shot available in 24 seconds. Hopefully he will give us a semblance of pure basketball as we move forward -- great defense and plays to get you a better shot than the first decent one available.

MusketeerX said:

Somethings you do have to make inferences in life, Trillion. Common sense, judgment, and intuition can get you far.

Billups said, "We know we can win games by scoring 108 points, but what we really need is to learn how to win games scoring 91 points."

Billups, in the games we won, purposely slowed down offensive sets and was the real leader we needed. I say after this next season, if he chooses to retire, we fire D'Antoni and hire him as coach.

Is the evidence circumstantial? Yes, but you rarely have direct evidence in real life (nor do I think Billups would just come out and say he doesn't like D'Antoni's ball). Billups, by being the player he is, is going to slow down the offense and work for the best shot available in 24 seconds. Hopefully he will give us a semblance of pure basketball as we move forward -- great defense and plays to get you a better shot than the first decent one available.

Click to expand...

So let me guess. You think that D'ant doesn't want to play defense or that he doesn't understand that holding teams to a low score is beneficial to just out shooting them. He was known for his defense as a player and is an NBA COY winner. You do not get to where he has gotten by not understanding the importance of defense. The Suns were a very underrated defensive team and most people were fooled because they looked at the high scoring. When you have the most potent offense in the league being middle of the road on defense can make you a 60+ win team and title contender.

BTW, Billiups stated that not because he is trying to contradict D'ants philosophy but rather a reaction to those who claimed the Knicks needed to score that in order to win. Watch the clip on MSG.com and tell me I'm wrong.

KBlack25 said:

You obviously didn't read...Why don't we box out? The players. Why did we struggle with the pick and roll? Chemistry between the players. Why do we play poor transition defense? The players, who at that point play on instinct.

To me, the answer to all your questions, in one way or another, is the players.

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Yeah, you've said it all. I can't bother commenting with you or this dude below, because its obvious you're a novice. Good writer though, basketball not so much so. I'll move on.

TR1LL10N said:

Talk about spin...

We have a wining record for the entire season to date, not just 2-1. Further we beat the Heat once already prior to the second major overhaul. If anything, having major overhauls while still competing should be a testament to a coach getting everyone on track quickly. Meh, you are just an emotional hater, lashing out with insults and poor grammar. No worries! :thumbsup:

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Hey moron do you think it was D'Ants big plan to go down by 16 in the 1st? Nope.

D you think you can convince me o soemthing other than what MDA's defensive stats for his coaching career show? Nope.

How about get outrebounded by the worse team in the league and lose? Was that te plan? What happened there? Just stfu, I find it hard to make sense of anyting you attempt to argue about.

I could give a f*ck about our record, it has nothing to do with the strategy and systems being critiqued.

MDA is an offfensive coach with limits. And there are ar better defensive coaches. None of which matters if we are winning. But the fact remains after seeing him with old, new, young or any players his defensive accumen is basic at best.

If basic works, the cool. When a more savy approach was needed to get younger players to play above their skill levels (notice that I'm saying skill is one thing, strategy is another, as is punishment for not adhering) he was exposed. Period.

These newplayers aren't making mda look good, they're making the assertion that he really doesn't bring anything to the table as was advertised more true. Moron.