PDA

View Full Version : Elton Brand vs KMart



New New York
Jul 05, 2013, 08:23
So it looks like once we sign one of these guys our Free Agency activity will be done for a while if not completley concluded. Of course signing both would just be tedious because one would not play.

Lets break it down.

Kmart


Fierce competitor
Enforcer (probably the best in NBA)
Versatile defender (did a decent job on Durant)
Playoff expereince
Familiar with current Knicks
Rebounder
Shot blocker
finishes with authroity around the rim
Limited offensive game
faded away in Indy series
Free throw shooting

Brand

New York Guy (passion for the Team)
2 way player (more or less)
decent back to basket game
Can play along side of Tyson and Melo
Often injured
some playoff experience but not a lot for a player with 10+ years
new to team (continuity
his perception of his value



Brand is in the same situation Kmart was in last off season, he may think there is more of a market out there for him! I would love Brand to come but would hate to see Kmart walk as we wait for Brand only to sign him after the season starts. It is imperative that we start this season with all our rotation guys!

now weighing the plus and minus it seems that Kmart brings more, yet the things Brand brings are more what we need...we'd take a step back defensively, yet we'd improve significantly on the offensive end, Brad's offensive abilities against Indy changes that series dramatically...lets examine possible lineups with both

Felton
Shump
Melo
Kmart
Chandler

To me this should have been our starting 5 yet it fizzled during the playoffs -at least the one game Woody tried it-. Kmart's limited offensive game allows teams to double hard on Melo and/or clog the lanes which also hurts Felton's drives. yet Tyson and Kmart on the floor together is strong! And with Shump guarding his man on perimeter we would be a top 5 defensive team

Felton
Shump
Melo
Brand
Tyson

On paper this is a very solid starting 5. The problem is this pretty much negates the need of either Stat or Bargs...we gave up too much (picks) not to play Bargs and Stat just makes too much to be benched. Brand unlike Kmart does not slide well to the 5 so he presents a potential log jam at 4 not to mention creating an issue in terms of backup Center.


cast your votes...I'm still deciding

DrB
Jul 05, 2013, 08:33
So it looks like once we sign one of these guys our Free Agency activity will be done for a while if not completley concluded. Of course signing both would just be tedious because one would not play.

Lets break it down.

Kmart


Fierce competitor
Enforcer (probably the best in NBA)
Versatile defender (did a decent job on Durant)
Playoff expereince
Familiar with current Knicks
Rebounder
Shot blocker
finishes with authroity around the rim
Limited offensive game
faded away in Indy series
Free throw shooting

Brand

New York Guy (passion for the Team)
2 way player (more or less)
decent back to basket game
Can play along side of Tyson and Melo
Often injured
some playoff experience but not a lot for a player with 10+ years
new to team (continuity
his perception of his value



Brand is in the same situation Kmart was in last off season, he may think there is more of a market out there for him! I would love Brand to come but would hate to see Kmart walk as we wait for Brand only to sign him after the season starts. It is imperative that we start this season with all our rotation guys!

now weighing the plus and minus it seems that Kmart brings more, yet the things Brand brings are more what we need...we'd take a step back defensively, yet we'd improve significantly on the offensive end, Brad's offensive abilities against Indy changes that series dramatically...lets examine possible lineups with both

Felton
Shump
Melo
Kmart
Chandler

To me this should have been our starting 5 yet it fizzled during the playoffs -at least the one game Woody tried it-. Kmart's limited offensive game allows teams to double hard on Melo and/or clog the lanes which also hurts Felton's drives. yet Tyson and Kmart on the floor together is strong! And with Shump guarding his man on perimeter we would be a top 5 defensive team

Felton
Shump
Melo
Brand
Tyson

On paper this is a very solid starting 5. The problem is this pretty much negates the need of either Stat or Bargs...we gave up too much (picks) not to play Bargs and Stat just makes too much to be benched. Brand unlike Kmart does not slide well to the 5 so he presents a potential log jam at 4 not to mention creating an issue in terms of backup Center.


cast your votes...I'm still decidingExcellent evaluation of KMART...a known quantity. I would like both at Veteran minimums but if I must choose it's K MART who saved our season last year.

tiger0330
Jul 05, 2013, 09:26
Not a fan of EB. Never seems to work out when teams bring him in to be a piece in taking a team to the next level, hence you're comment that he doesn't have a lot of playoff experience for a guy with over 10 years experience. His agent said geography is not his big concern at this stage in his career so don't expect him to take the vet's min just to play in NY.

Much rather have KMart.

DontForgetDerekHarper
Jul 05, 2013, 09:33
and we cant have both because why ? it would be equal in terms of attitude and experience at the 4/5 positions as if sheed and kmart were there all year and healthy. brand and kmart together with amare and bargs switching in at the 5 position behind chandler would be a nightmare match up wise; we would have a stretch 4-5 with bargs, we would have an athletic slasher pick and roll player in amare, and we would have rebounding, aggressive veterans in brand and k mart; we learned last year very quickly that you cant have enough bigs going down the stretch, if camby was healthy, sheed was alive and Thomas wasn't damned by the broken foot we probably would have faired much differently against the pacers; to have amare, bargs, brand and k mart as well as chandler to throw against roy hibbert and d west; I think that would work out well---- I say bring em both in some how some way as both are vets and wont get much money on the open market.

KnicksFan4Life
Jul 05, 2013, 09:41
I would lean towards taking Brand if I had to choose. He's not the defender K-Mart is but he does rebound and can score in the post which are two things the Knicks need. Also in either scenario I don't think K-Mart or Brand are the starters anyway. I think Bargs should start because he would space the floor better and he would not get in the way as much with Melo as K-Mart, Brand, and Stat would. So the question really becomes would you rather have a Brand and Stat or K-Mart and Stat as your bigs coming off the bench. Even in this case I would lean towards Brand slightly. But like DrB said I would love to have both.

knicksince 93
Jul 05, 2013, 09:45
I'm taking brand. He's bigger and younger. Can guard in the post and won't get horsed by Bigs. I'm not saying k mart did. Brand can hit the mid range too

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

New New York
Jul 05, 2013, 09:51
and we cant have both because why ? it would be equal in terms of attitude and experience at the 4/5 positions as if sheed and kmart were there all year and healthy. brand and kmart together with amare and bargs switching in at the 5 position behind chandler would be a nightmare match up wise; we would have a stretch 4-5 with bargs, we would have an athletic slasher pick and roll player in amare, and we would have rebounding, aggressive veterans in brand and k mart; we learned last year very quickly that you cant have enough bigs going down the stretch, if camby was healthy, sheed was alive and Thomas wasn't damned by the broken foot we probably would have faired much differently against the pacers; to have amare, bargs, brand and k mart as well as chandler to throw against roy hibbert and d west; I think that would work out well---- I say bring em both in some how some way as both are vets and wont get much money on the open market.

The reason we don't get them both is that once we sign one there is no way the other signs because there would be no PT...I mean w the Andrea trade alone minutes at the 4 spot is gonna be hard enough. Consider Woody would rather play Melo at the 4 then that alone represents 3 PFs (Melo, Stat,Andrea) then there is no way we go get 2 more!

CoolClyde
Jul 05, 2013, 09:56
although i was a big KMart shopper and supporter last year, he definitely faded in the playoffs, and that was after playing not many games at all. i don't think he's in great shape and may never be, just good for a short duration. he may be an intimidator, but he's not all that on either offense or defense when you come down to it.

on the other hand Brand is a much smarter player, can be an offensive weapon as a shooter and inside player, has a complete game, is younger than KMart, and I believe would welcome a return to his hometown playing with Melo and current Knickstape. .

I remember plenty games when Brand was on Philly where he absolutely scorched the Knicks with rebounding and scoring.

IMHO, go with Brandy!

metrocard
Jul 05, 2013, 09:59
Brand blocks more shots than Martin, but you failed to it list down in comparisons.

Weak thread.

metrocard
Jul 05, 2013, 10:01
Martin per 36 (18 games)
10.8 ppg
7.9 rpg
1.3 spg
1.4 bpg
5.3 foul per game

Elton Brand per 36 (72 games)
12.2 ppg
10.1 rpg
1.2 spg
2.1 bpg
4.5 fouls per game

This thread is so pointless.

Both guys are basically equally good. Who ever we get will help this team, period.

I rather have both for depth.

New New York
Jul 05, 2013, 12:11
Brand blocks more shots than Martin, but you failed to it list down in comparisons.

Weak thread.

Such a weak thread you posted twice in it...interesting

I've never seen someone who craves so much attention!

SMH.

Rob Low
Jul 05, 2013, 12:23
Gimme K Mart all day.

gmf1369
Jul 05, 2013, 12:37
it comes down to the rotation...

Martin has the ability to be a decent center while most think he should only play the 4, which I agree...

The Knicks need a bench player for Tyson Chandler that could step in and play starting minutes, which is why they are looking at Brand...

Next season the bench rotation for Anthony at the PF position will be a platooning of Stoudemire/Bargnani...

Issues for the Knicks, is how or if they get Copeland back with who plays the 3... Likely since we only have two PGs right now we won't run similar lineups like last season... Hardway Jr. & Leslie could see massive minutes...

bluechox2
Jul 05, 2013, 12:46
kmart is equally injury prone

knicksince 93
Jul 05, 2013, 13:10
They're equal. They have very different skill sets but as far as currently they will have the same amount of effect on a game just in different ways

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

Oldtimer
Jul 05, 2013, 13:11
I have a question. We have signed Prigioni for about $2M a year. This is at least somewhat over the veteran's minimum -- assuming Prigioni, as a second year player, is eligible for a "veteran's" minimum. I am not sure just how much of our mini-midlevel exception we have used up. My question is whether the mini-mid level stands alone and cannot be added to a veteran's minimum or other minimum for a single player. In other words, do we have to use minimums and mini-mid levels separately or can they be combined.? If a team cannot increase an allowed "minimum" by dipping into whatever may be left of a mini or other mid level, then, given we paid a portion of the mini-mid level for Prigioni, we probably cannot pay either Brand or Kmart an amount that is appreciably different from a veteran's minimum. I am not sure we can get either one for the amount we likely have available.

bigapple
Jul 05, 2013, 16:28
Knicks need more fight on the glass and more scoring true K-mart was huge impact and playoffs exp

Brand better scorer ad rebounder


no choice from mine side this team need both but cant have.

tiger0330
Jul 05, 2013, 17:04
I have a question. We have signed Prigioni for about $2M a year. This is at least somewhat over the veteran's minimum -- assuming Prigioni, as a second year player, is eligible for a "veteran's" minimum. I am not sure just how much of our mini-midlevel exception we have used up. My question is whether the mini-mid level stands alone and cannot be added to a veteran's minimum or other minimum for a single player. In other words, do we have to use minimums and mini-mid levels separately or can they be combined.? If a team cannot increase an allowed "minimum" by dipping into whatever may be left of a mini or other mid level, then, given we paid a portion of the mini-mid level for Prigioni, we probably cannot pay either Brand or Kmart an amount that is appreciably different from a veteran's minimum. I am not sure we can get either one for the amount we likely have available.
The taxpayer MLE and vet min exception can not be combined, you can't use the two to sign a player say making 4M.

The Prigoni signing only used 1.5M of the MLE because part of his contract is performance based, performance based incentives are counted against the cap only if the NBA rules that they are likely to occur and we still have 1.7 of our MLE left to spend on other FA's.

You're right what we have left of the MLE is not much different than what KMart or EB can get as vet min players. The 2103-2014 min salary for vets with 10 years experience is 1.4M, 300K is probably a joke for vets like EB and KMart that are coming off of 10M plus yearly contracts.

petescud
Jul 05, 2013, 21:34
Either will work far as i'm concerned...

TruOrngnBlu
Jul 05, 2013, 22:25
I would lean towards taking Brand if I had to choose. He's not the defender K-Mart is but he does rebound and can score in the post which are two things the Knicks need. Also in either scenario I don't think K-Mart or Brand are the starters anyway. I think Bargs should start because he would space the floor better and he would not get in the way as much with Melo as K-Mart, Brand, and Stat would. So the question really becomes would you rather have a Brand and Stat or K-Mart and Stat as your bigs coming off the bench. Even in this case I would lean towards Brand slightly. But like DrB said I would love to have both.

2nd Time today I'm on board with you my man. While K-mart brings that energy that you just cant quantify Elton brings the skills and smarts that we could have really used against indy. The energy thing is so important in the regular season but when in those 7 game battles teams find a way to offset that or flat out shut it down.
Brand is a solid big defender with a nice jumper and rebounding ability, More of a glue guy with a higher IQ. Kind of a younger Kurt Thomas but more aggressive and slightly more athletic. Also agree either comes off the bench in favor of the Barngburner.

Something tells me though, as other teams complete their rosters after the Dwight fall-out some team will see brand as a good piece and offer him more money and or years than we can.

PaPZ187
Jul 06, 2013, 04:57
Gimme K Mart all day.

+1

Love the energy KMart brings off the bench, plus he is a more versatile defender and can back up Tyson at the 5.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 via Tapatalk

htr10
Jul 06, 2013, 14:43
I'm starting to worry that we're going to strike out on both these guys. On top of that, Francisco Garcia just signed with the Rockets. That leaves Carlos Delfino and Dahntay Jones left as possible 3's that had our interest at some point. If we walk away getting none of these guys, a frontcourt rotation of Chandler, Melo, Stat, Bargnani, and Shump is fine, but completely lacks any flexible without a proven enforcer, a 2nd big who can rebound/play D, a wing who can consistently shoot the 3, or another forward who can play anything resembling solid perimeter defense.

Are we going to hope Hardaway J.R. and CJ Leslie are both league ready when the season starts?

metrocard
Jul 06, 2013, 15:57
Such a weak thread you posted twice in it...interesting

I've never seen someone who craves so much attention!

SMH.


I posted in it to notify you it was a weak thread.
Stop crying.

tiger0330
Jul 06, 2013, 16:29
I'm starting to worry that we're going to strike out on both these guys. On top of that, Francisco Garcia just signed with the Rockets. That leaves Carlos Delfino and Dahntay Jones left as possible 3's that had our interest at some point. If we walk away getting none of these guys, a frontcourt rotation of Chandler, Melo, Stat, Bargnani, and Shump is fine, but completely lacks any flexible without a proven enforcer, a 2nd big who can rebound/play D, a wing who can consistently shoot the 3, or another forward who can play anything resembling solid perimeter defense.

Are we going to hope Hardaway J.R. and CJ Leslie are both league ready when the season starts?
Brand looks unlikely, supposedly he has other offers. One positive is Cisco signed a vets min deal with the Rox which is way under the market for him, guess he's looking for a ring. I'm hoping KMart is grateful we recycled him from the scrap heap last season and signs with us for the vet's min.

New New York
Jul 06, 2013, 17:30
I posted in it to notify you it was a weak thread.
Stop crying.

3rd post and counting in my "weak thread". I read a weak thread everyday I simply don't post is how I let it be known...again you crave the attention so you can't do that


But I'm going to have to instruct you to kindly hop off my penis, your full cooperation with this instruction is completely necessary and greatly appreciated

thanks.

metrocard
Jul 07, 2013, 11:36
3rd post and counting in my "weak thread". I read a weak thread everyday I simply don't post is how I let it be known...again you crave the attention so you can't do that


But I'm going to have to instruct you to kindly hop off my penis, your full cooperation with this instruction is completely necessary and greatly appreciated

thanks.

How can I hop off something so small?

It's against physics. Use your little brain.

Seba
Jul 07, 2013, 12:21
As a sohpmore, Prigioni was eligible for something around 700k as the vet's minimum. That's why we had to give him a part of the MLE. The rest of it could be useful to attract an European player?


I have a question. We have signed Prigioni for about $2M a year. This is at least somewhat over the veteran's minimum -- assuming Prigioni, as a second year player, is eligible for a "veteran's" minimum. I am not sure just how much of our mini-midlevel exception we have used up. My question is whether the mini-mid level stands alone and cannot be added to a veteran's minimum or other minimum for a single player. In other words, do we have to use minimums and mini-mid levels separately or can they be combined.? If a team cannot increase an allowed "minimum" by dipping into whatever may be left of a mini or other mid level, then, given we paid a portion of the mini-mid level for Prigioni, we probably cannot pay either Brand or Kmart an amount that is appreciably different from a veteran's minimum. I am not sure we can get either one for the amount we likely have available.

tiger0330
Jul 15, 2013, 13:48
Brand signed with the Hawks. People have been expecting him to sign with a contender but Brand is not about winning, he's about the paycheck. I am sure ATL offered him the most money.

Let's see if we can land KMart, he's a piece we need when we have 2 soft PF's like Stat and Bargnani.

Kiyaman
Jul 15, 2013, 15:54
For some reason I see K-Mart signing in January for $2M with the Brooklyn Nets .. i have a feelin

knicksin60
Jul 16, 2013, 17:52
The difference between Elton Brand and Kenyon Martin is that one cares about money while the other cares about winning.