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View Full Version : The verdict is in... Early!



Red
Nov 04, 2013, 10:55
Yes I've seen enough.

1. Combine this list of players who I have no confidence in from a defensive standpoint:
Felton, Bargnani, Stat

with
2. This list of players I have no confidence in offensively:
Prigioni, MWP, Felton, Tyson "I can believe his hands are butter" Chandler

add a little...

3. Streaky hit or miss players like:
Melo, Shump, JR, THJ, Udrith

sprinkle in a few role-players who make no difference here nor there

and a dash of...
4. A coach with
no identity; a propensity to constantly shift a line-up, and play everyone out of position; and a touch of that ol' MDA famous flavor "IF YOU'RE OPEN SHOOT IT" & "WHEN THE SHOTS GO IN, WHO NEEDS A REBOUNDER"

and there you have it...

an unmitigated disaster. F-U-B-A-R if you will.

We may have the occasional winning streak, but this is going nowhere fast. I do like Tim Hardaway though. Its nice to see talented youth that coach will undoubtedly ruin or not realize his potential.

Call me when the TDL reaches. Maybe we'll get a rebounder/defender/or even a leader.
Finally... Shump is our only hope of even competing and coach will nullify his contribution by playing him at the 3. If by a miracle Shump becomes D Wade light, maybe we can make some playoff noise.
One.

DontForgetDerekHarper
Nov 04, 2013, 11:07
chill broahhh

Sent from my PantechP9070 using Tapatalk 2

clumsy
Nov 04, 2013, 13:14
The original post is good and i agree with the sentiment. It's very clear this team cannot compete in the playoffs with the current Roster. Too many parts that don't make sense with each other. If Melo doesn't play like he did last year, or if he gets hurt, is this even a playoff team?

Bargnani defensively is such a liability that it puts more pressure on whoever he's on the court with. With Carmelo who isn't a great defender either and our poor perimeter defense, i don't see how this team makes any noise in the playoffs. Add to the fact this team relies on streaky 3 pt shooting and our starters don't get easy buckets and i just don't see it. It seems like going small our team has good transition offense but that small lineup is also pretty abysmal defensively.

If i was running the show i would blow it up next year. Melo, who i do think is a championship caliber player, should go to Memphis if he wants a ring. They have everything in place to hide his weaknesses and utilize all the advantages he brings.

Broadway
Nov 04, 2013, 13:49
The original post is good and i agree with the sentiment. It's very clear this team cannot compete in the playoffs with the current Roster. Too many parts that don't make sense with each other. If Melo doesn't play like he did last year, or if he gets hurt, is this even a playoff team?

Bargnani defensively is such a liability that it puts more pressure on whoever he's on the court with. With Carmelo who isn't a great defender either and our poor perimeter defense, i don't see how this team makes any noise in the playoffs. Add to the fact this team relies on streaky 3 pt shooting and our starters don't get easy buckets and i just don't see it. It seems like going small our team has good transition offense but that small lineup is also pretty abysmal defensively.

If i was running the show i would blow it up next year. Melo, who i do think is a championship caliber player, should go to Memphis if he wants a ring. They have everything in place to hide his weaknesses and utilize all the advantages he brings.


I would look to move Melo to Portland(I think Olshey/Allen are game)...Memphis doesn't have what we need in terms of assets sent back and I doubt Memphis can afford the dollars Melo would command. I mean we all know we're wishing on a a REAL SUPERSTAR because Melo is not. Portland I believe is desperate to keep LaMarcus Aldridge

Let's get this straight Melo is not Championship Caliber player. What kind of mythical talk is this? This isn't college hoops folks nor is this the Olympics with a stacked roster against a watered down field of competition.

It's the same mythical talk of saying "HE'S THE BEST PURE SCORER IN BASKETBALL"<-------what does this mean by definition?

We have to get away from these trapped phrases trying to anchor them to Carmelo, it's not applicable in no way, shape, form, or fashion please stop it.


To the OP you are spot on and you made me chuckle...thanks

Ghostowl
Nov 04, 2013, 14:26
Here is how I see it:

Our guards are bad. Felton? Ugh. Prigioni? Well Shumpert is decent because of his defense but he still has to learn how to finish. The last young guard that was actually useful was given away without gaining anything back. This Dolan is a joke.

Amare is done. Injury + Offensive system that doesn't fit him just killed his career. We shouldn't look to him to save us.

Tyson is a former shell of himself. Maybe he just needs a good guard that can PnR with him. During "those" days, he was slamming balls mid-air and alley-oop'ing every chance he got.

JR is a ball-hogger that takes lots of stupid contested shots. How did he get 6th man of the year? Because NBA stats are all about volume. The more you shoot, the higher your points. The higher your points, the more overrated your name becomes. Look at the best players in the NBA, not only do they have the highest points, but they can do something else (Chris Paul: Points, Assists, Steals) (Lebron: Points, Assists, Rebounds) (Dwight: Rebounds, Blocks, Points)

That brings me to the last point.

Melo might be the "greatest scorer" but that doesn't mean he's a great player. The only thing he knows how to do is score. He needs to stop taking every shot and stop the ball movement. There was an article here few years ago when he was coming to the Knicks and some analyst says that Knicks are going to make a big mistake acquiring Melo. He was right. Melo has such a high usage rate for his extremely low assist rate; he's a total "black hole" on offense. The analyst said that we would be a billion times better off acquiring CP3. And guess what? We would be a deadly team if we had CP3 here instead of Melo. Amare/Tyson would have actually benefited a lot from CP3. We would solve our "guard problem". CP3 also has better defense than Melo.

And JR is a mini version of Melo. Ball stopper, streaky, and black hole on offense.

I just don't see hope for this team anymore. As long as we have Melo / JR / Dolan for the Knicks, we're ****ed. Get rid of them, and we can start fresh. We can trade away the aging players. We can find a decent point guard, keep Chandler, and trade away everyone else. We need to "grow" our players. Acquiring max contract players has been a huge gamble that we have lost on, TWICE, in the last 5 years.

petescud
Nov 04, 2013, 16:47
My guess is by the trade deadline if we are #$$#$ then we should move some players ... I'd keep TC and Hardaway Jr (he has a lot of upside i think)...the hell with the rest...

Kiyaman
Nov 05, 2013, 07:55
We suppose to be 3-0 .. our bench-depth is deepr than all 3 teams.

This 1-2 record is a Woodson STUNT .. both losses had rookie THJ on the court at crunchtime.
rookie THJ equal rookie Murry
We had a healthy Amare, K-Mart, Meta, and Beno (veteran-experience) sitting on the bench at crunchtime.
I guess Woodson is waiting on JR.smith suspension to end.
Its going to be hard for Woodson to pull a loss-stunt in the next 2 games vs Bobcats LOL
then again cheap owner MJ recently signed 4 of his players to his Brand (endorsement $$$)

clumsy
Nov 05, 2013, 08:38
Let's get this straight Melo is not Championship Caliber player. What kind of mythical talk is this? This isn't college hoops folks nor is this the Olympics with a stacked roster against a watered down field of competition.


He's like Allen Iverson, he's a hard player to build around but it can be done. The point is moot because the Knicks already screwed up their cap. Melo needs to be the feature scorer/creator in crunchtime, he needs to be surrounded by good perimeter and interior defenders to mask his inefficiency. On offense he needs someone to stretch the floor (Marc Gasol with his midrange and passing) to give him more space. I think the reason Melo doens't pass in NY is because he never had a true #2 option in his time here. You can see he's trying to force Bargnani right now because he's probably the best shooter he ever played with.

In terms of being the best offensive player, he's not, his inside game isn't good for his position, but he definitely is a huge threat at 3 and midrange where he likes to operate.
http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/919-Carmelo-Anthony/season/2012-2013-REG

Broadway
Nov 05, 2013, 11:41
He's like Allen Iverson, he's a hard player to build around but it can be done. The point is moot because the Knicks already screwed up their cap. Melo needs to be the feature scorer/creator in crunchtime, he needs to be surrounded by good perimeter and interior defenders to mask his inefficiency. On offense he needs someone to stretch the floor (Marc Gasol with his midrange and passing) to give him more space. I think the reason Melo doens't pass in NY is because he never had a true #2 option in his time here. You can see he's trying to force Bargnani right now because he's probably the best shooter he ever played with.

In terms of being the best offensive player, he's not, his inside game isn't good for his position, but he definitely is a huge threat at 3 and midrange where he likes to operate.
http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/919-Carmelo-Anthony/season/2012-2013-REG

First of all, as good as Iverson was and believe me Iverson>>>>>>>>>>>Melo and it's galactic IMO(he's nothing like him at all, that's a topic of debate for another time)...Iverson never won a championship playing that way and only got to the Finals 1. I could see if you were using Iverson as an example and A.I. proved over a number of seasons that scheme and style of play produced peak results. Hence Iverson played with many different players throughout his career as it proved to be a heckuva challenge to win it all.... not to mention without LB, A.I. faltered and fell off eventually. Ask yourself how long has it taken 2 franchises to figure out what it takes to get Melo to win? If your answer is 12yrs then this tells you trying to find the means to this bitter end, isn't worth it and ultimately never was.


Second of all, you didn't list not 1 thing Carmelo Anthony does on the other side of the ball consistently well and/or at a championship level. Not 1 thing and you had all the time in the world along with free will to do so. Too late now don't even think about trying to because the answer is he doesn't.

Third of of all, look at all the things you did state I highlighted them.... hence those are the things that would also qualify him as non championship material. Not to mention much of which you stated can be applied to other players in this league. I could say Marc Gasol is Championship caliber player if he had Kevin Durant....Rudy Gay is Championship caliber if he was playing with Derrick Rose.... I mean come on these statements are mythical stuff of folklore and legend.


Melo is not a Championship caliber player, he's not The Best Pure Scorer In The NBA...he's a regular season performer and playoff failure nothing more...stop trying to church him up more than he is.

metrocard
Nov 05, 2013, 12:19
First of all, as good as Iverson was and believe me Iverson>>>>>>>>>>>Melo and it's galactic IMO(he's nothing like him at all, that's a topic of debate for another time)...Iverson never won a championship playing that way and only got to the Finals 1. I could see if you were using Iverson as an example and A.I. proved over a number of seasons that scheme and style of play produced peak results. Hence Iverson played with many different players throughout his career as it proved to be a heckuva challenge to win it all.... not to mention without LB, A.I. faltered and fell off eventually. Ask yourself how long has it taken 2 franchises to figure out what it takes to get Melo to win? If your answer is 12yrs then this tells you trying to find the means to this bitter end, isn't worth it and ultimately never was.


Second of all, you didn't list not 1 thing Carmelo Anthony does on the other side of the ball consistently well and/or at a championship level. Not 1 thing and you had all the time in the world along with free will to do so. Too late now don't even think about trying to because the answer is he doesn't.

Third of of all, look at all the things you did state I highlighted them.... hence those are the things that would also qualify him as non championship material. Not to mention much of which you stated can be applied to other players in this league. I could say Marc Gasol is Championship caliber player if he had Kevin Durant....Rudy Gay is Championship caliber if he was playing with Derrick Rose.... I mean come on these statements are mythical stuff of folklore and legend.


Melo is not a Championship caliber player, he's not The Best Pure Scorer In The NBA...he's a regular season performer and playoff failure nothing more...stop trying to church him up more than he is.


Melo is definitely a top 3 soccer in the league, he can be the best depending on his shot selection.

Melo has good handles for a 6"8 235lb guy, but

he's best playing off the ball.

We don't have a PG to the level who can give Melo easy shots.

Most importantly, our defense is exposable and we don't have enough pieces to hold down a strong defense.

Shumpert, MWP, Prigioni and Martin are what we have but those guys don't play enough minutes because Woodson favors offense over defense.

The ONLY way Knicks have a chance is if:

Carmelo Anthony gives up his shot attempts and puts more energy into creating shots for his guards and big men and playing the best defense on the team, even better than MWP.

If your best player is doing what the team needs most (passing and defense) then it will spread around every player.

We need to stop trying to surround Melo with pieces and tell him to adapt and make this team better.

wian
Nov 06, 2013, 03:27
i said this a few seasons back. The knicks management have no idea to be honest. You cannot BUY Championships. Unless you invest in Lebron James which is a far fetch.... Mello is a far cry from being anywhere near as good as Lebron

The only way to do it is a little bit of short term pain for long term gain. Not pay hacks like Stat millions of dollars in the twilight of his career when his best is past him

You need to invest in youth by being wise with your draft picks , do it hard for a few years, and then once the players have matured, then you go in for the kill with recruiting some big players from other teams once the kids are showing potential

The knicks management are muppets and we will not win a championship with a bunch of reject old hacks from other teams ! Until they learn this, it will be yet again another long season

DontForgetDerekHarper
Nov 06, 2013, 04:58
I don't know how we can blame melo for any of this. give up 40 points in the first quarter. and then back it up with giving up 64 in a half against the worst offensive team in the NBA. just stop it. please. Raymond Felton is the worst ball stopper in the NBA. and that puts way too much pressure on the wings to have to cover two players all game because Felton.can't stay in front of his man. everrrrrrrrrr. Felton plays defense straight up and doesn't know.how to shuffle. he gambles once then plays catch up and our whole defense fails as a result. once the PG.gets inside everyone has to collapse leaving 3-4 people open a game. everything jump shot another team takes you see a knicks wing running out to recover after having to collapse into the paint. one broken rung in a chain makes it a weak chain. that weak link is Raymond Felton. coaches worst mistake so far tthis season is keeping Felton.on.the floor to guard the other teams fastest player. I.e rubio walker rose. all three losses. all three pgs repeatedly got into the paint by blowing by Felton. luckily rose was off or the bulls would have blown us out.


stop blaming melo so far. he's actually been on an island all year because shump is the only guy who seems like he has the lightning in his veins along with world peace to do what it takes to win. we are 3-1 if dudes can make foul shots.

Sent from my PantechP9070 using Tapatalk 2

Kiyaman
Nov 06, 2013, 09:07
He's like Allen Iverson, he's a hard player to build around but it can be done. The point is moot because the Knicks already screwed up their cap. Melo needs to be the feature scorer/creator in crunchtime, he needs to be surrounded by good perimeter and interior defenders to mask his inefficiency. On offense he needs someone to stretch the floor (Marc Gasol with his midrange and passing) to give him more space. I think the reason Melo doens't pass in NY is because he never had a true #2 option in his time here. You can see he's trying to force Bargnani right now because he's probably the best shooter he ever played with.

In terms of being the best offensive player, he's not, his inside game isn't good for his position, but he definitely is a huge threat at 3 and midrange where he likes to operate.
http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/919-Carmelo-Anthony/season/2012-2013-REG


WHOA!!!! Melo has never been as good as Allen Iverson .. AI consistently told the NBA league (repeatedly) that he was a SG, not a PG. When Philly GM (now Nets GM) got PG-Snow the two (AI & Snow) took big mouth HOF Larry Brown to his first NBA FINALS.

All the Larry Brown media making AI into this and that .. are for people who dont know anything about Larry Brown career as a HC.
1) David Robinson (Colonel) kick Larry Brown big media mouth out of San Antonio.
2) Reggie Miller & Mark Jackson kicked Larry Brown big media mouth out of Indiana.
3) AI was clueless about Larry Brown big mouth to the press.
4) Billups & Ben Wallace kicked Larry Brown big media mouth out of Detroit when the Press announce Larry Brown going to the Knicks during Detroit vs Spurs in the FINALS.
5) Arbitration help the Knicks get rid of Larry Brown Big Media Mouth after one season of coaching.

Kiyaman
Nov 06, 2013, 09:22
ISO-Melo has to be the #1 selfish ballhoggin player I seen in the NBA in 40 years of being a NBA Fan.
HC Karl actually design a ISO-Melo system .. the same system Woodson use lastseason and this season.
Teammates has been disgusted in this system, and show it as soon as the postseason starts.

KBlack25
Nov 06, 2013, 09:29
Great original post.

Our guard play is subpar, but Woodson must not be watching the same game I am because Prigs needs more time. I am not confident in his ability to score the ball, but to space the floor and get guys looks he's miles above anyone else we have on the team at this moment.

Bargs should not be anywhere near the floor, not to mention in a starting lineup.

metrocard
Nov 06, 2013, 10:39
Great original post.

Our guard play is subpar, but Woodson must not be watching the same game I am because Prigs needs more time. I am not confident in his ability to score the ball, but to space the floor and get guys looks he's miles above anyone else we have on the team at this moment.

Bargs should not be anywhere near the floor, not to mention in a starting lineup.

Prigioni should get 28-32 minutes.

Give Ray 18 minutes. His defense is really bad.

World Peace should also get 32 minutes per game. But this is a problem because Artest and Carmelo don't get 8 boards a game, more like 5-6. We need rebound help since Chandler and Martin are the only guys on the roster who get rebounds.

Red
Jan 24, 2014, 17:21
Yes I've seen enough.

1. Combine this list of players who I have no confidence in from a defensive standpoint:
Felton, Bargnani, Stat

with
2. This list of players I have no confidence in offensively:
Prigioni, MWP, Felton, Tyson "I can believe his hands are butter" Chandler

add a little...

3. Streaky hit or miss players like:
Melo, Shump, JR, THJ, Udrith

sprinkle in a few role-players who make no difference here nor there

and a dash of...
4. A coach with
no identity; a propensity to constantly shift a line-up, and play everyone out of position; and a touch of that ol' MDA famous flavor "IF YOU'RE OPEN SHOOT IT" & "WHEN THE SHOTS GO IN, WHO NEEDS A REBOUNDER"

and there you have it...

an unmitigated disaster. F-U-B-A-R if you will.

We may have the occasional winning streak, but this is going nowhere fast. I do like Tim Hardaway though. Its nice to see talented youth that coach will undoubtedly ruin or not realize his potential.

Call me when the TDL reaches. Maybe we'll get a rebounder/defender/or even a leader.
Finally... Shump is our only hope of even competing and coach will nullify his contribution by playing him at the 3. If by a miracle Shump becomes D Wade light, maybe we can make some playoff noise.
One.

Bumped.

1. We got rid of Dantoni and the next full season WE LEAD THE LEAGUE IN 3 POINT ATTEMPTS! Who else sees this as a big problem and a mistake? Hello wasnt Dantoni ruining games having players play undisciplined and chucking? So why was it ok with Woodson? Because we won 54 games? As I said and as we saw and see... an undisciplined unorthodox approach does not work.

2. Woodson was to design a new offense. He lied.

3. If anyone saw the Mike Woodson show prior to the last game and saw Woodson's stupid dumbfounding explanation and defensive approach and doesnt realize he has no clue of what he is talking about just like Dantoni then stop watching ball and posting here.

There is 1 problem with this team... The coach. Which affects our philosophy and morale. If a team cannot get simple concepts down after years of playing together then that is a reflection of the ineptitude of the coach.

we are bashing a perennial allstar, multiple Team USA selection? Huh?

No unproven disrespected coach will do in this town. No experiments. Get a proven winner with. Solid fundamental philosophy.

Why is it that everything we do, every player we get is vastly incomplete. TC the walking flu plays D but cant catch or score in the post. Shump played D but cant score. JR can score but cant play D. Everyone is 1 dimensional including the coach. Its like they stopped developing at 18 yrs. So they can dribble why learn to shoot. They can hit 3's but cant dunk; cant drive. On and on...

from Duhon to Harrington (who did everything a PF shouldn't do) etc... Othella could hit the three but was shorter than the avg SF so of course we say.... hummm if he could just hit 1000 threes a game who cares he doesn't rebound or D up. And we just enable and enable. The blind leading the blind. Please someone make me a coach or GM. Trust me this sh!t wont go down like thjs. Trust.
One.

Ps. Bumpity bump bump.

Broadway
Jan 24, 2014, 18:34
We need to stop trying to surround Melo with pieces and tell him to adapt and make this team better.

You're gonna have to do this....

http://jonathandallen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/remix-michael-jacksons-moonwalk.gif

:teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth:

metrocard
Jan 24, 2014, 18:40
You're gonna have to do this....

http://jonathandallen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/remix-michael-jacksons-moonwalk.gif

:teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth:

Nice try you ugly rat.

This is the original post.


Melo is definitely a top 3 soccer in the league, he can be the best depending on his shot selection.

Melo has good handles for a 6"8 235lb guy, but

he's best playing off the ball.

We don't have a PG to the level who can give Melo easy shots.

Most importantly, our defense is exposable and we don't have enough pieces to hold down a strong defense.

Shumpert, MWP, Prigioni and Martin are what we have but those guys don't play enough minutes because Woodson favors offense over defense.

The ONLY way Knicks have a chance is if:

Carmelo Anthony gives up his shot attempts and puts more energy into creating shots for his guards and big men and playing the best defense on the team, even better than MWP.

If your best player is doing what the team needs most (passing and defense) then it will spread around every player.

We need to stop trying to surround Melo with pieces and tell him to adapt and make this team better.


Melo did exactly what I told him to, he had a great December and January.
Unfortunately his teammates haven't responded.

Broadway
Jan 24, 2014, 18:45
My bad double post....

Broadway
Jan 24, 2014, 18:49
Nice try you ugly rat.

This is the original post.




Melo did exactly what I told him to, he had a great December and January.
Unfortunately his teammates haven't responded.


wrong you also said this....



The ONLY way Knicks have a chance is if:

Carmelo Anthony gives up his shot attempts and puts more energy into creating shots for his guards and big men and playing the best defense on the team, even better than MWP.

If you don't have a good pair of Penny Loafers I can recommend a good site to get some at a steal. Get to practicing..you're cold busted

metrocard
Jan 24, 2014, 19:28
wrong you also said this....




If you don't have a good pair of Penny Loafers I can recommend a good site to get some at a steal. Get to practicing..you're cold busted

It doesn't really matter, Melo's teammates just stand and watch.
LeBron wouldn't be able to impact this roster, what makes you think Melo can?