How does Fisher experiment coaching look to u

Kiyaman

Legend
NEW YORK -- Carmelo Anthony wasn't in the mood to offer any deep analysis after the New York Knicks' loss Friday night.
"We're just not getting it done," he said.

That's a blanket statement and could apply to a number of things that happened on the court against the Cleveland Cavaliers. But part of the focus on Friday's 90-84 loss to the Cavaliers should lie with late-game execution -- or lack thereof.
For the second straight game, the Knicks failed to hold a significant fourth-quarter lead. And for the second straight game, they walked off the court knowing they let a precious opportunity slip away.
Derek Fisher put the onus on himself.

"I have to do a better job of putting guys in position to be successful out there," the coach said. "They're doing what we're asking them to do."
Fisher didn't mention any specifics, but it's clear he hasn't yet found a lineup he's comfortable with late in close games.

I know what Knicks players do not belong on the court the final 6 minutes of a crunchtime game .. how come Fisher don't know???
 

DrB

Benchwarmer
Fisher is an ***hole

NEW YORK -- Carmelo Anthony wasn't in the mood to offer any deep analysis after the New York Knicks' loss Friday night.
"We're just not getting it done," he said.

That's a blanket statement and could apply to a number of things that happened on the court against the Cleveland Cavaliers. But part of the focus on Friday's 90-84 loss to the Cavaliers should lie with late-game execution -- or lack thereof.
For the second straight game, the Knicks failed to hold a significant fourth-quarter lead. And for the second straight game, they walked off the court knowing they let a precious opportunity slip away.
Derek Fisher put the onus on himself.

"I have to do a better job of putting guys in position to be successful out there," the coach said. "They're doing what we're asking them to do."
Fisher didn't mention any specifics, but it's clear he hasn't yet found a lineup he's comfortable with late in close games.
At age 75 , a knick fan for over one half a century I am not in the mood for political correctness. IF we can't get Mark Jackson, or one of the Van Gundy's or promote Curt Rambis then my next choice is KIYAMAN for coach....because both he and I know who was getting it done in the fourth quarter and who our closers should be. BUT there is a caveat and that is MELO must join the team in the last 3 minutes and think of second options....he is not a great closer. Had he not shot lights out in the Cleveland game maybe we would not have gotten it done. Anyway as the second unit was playing great and they was pulled 85-85 at 8 minutes left not because of their play but because FISHER substituting has been on the clock. He has no imagination in the best utilization of the teams players.
 

tiger0330

Legend
Disappointed in Melo in crunch time again. You can't bench the guy in crunch time I don't think but his numbers say you should.

Crunch time is the time more than any other that you shouldn't be experimenting with your lineups. Put your 5 best guys out there and have a consistent lineup. Zinger needs to be out there whatever the lineup is, rookie or no rookie, he's the future let him learn by trial by fire. If he makes a few mistakes so be it.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
At age 75 , a knick fan for over one half a century I am not in the mood for political correctness. IF we can't get Mark Jackson, or one of the Van Gundy's or promote Curt Rambis then my next choice is KIYAMAN for coach....because both he and I know who was getting it done in the fourth quarter and who our closers should be. BUT there is a caveat and that is MELO must join the team in the last 3 minutes and think of second options....he is not a great closer. Had he not shot lights out in the Cleveland game maybe we would not have gotten it done. Anyway as the second unit was playing great and they was pulled 85-85 at 8 minutes left not because of their play but because FISHER substituting has been on the clock. He has no imagination in the best utilization of the teams players.


So true .. I wouldve welcome Mark Jackson or SVG chemistry-coaching style before this rectangle/triangle offense.

u just dont throw a NEWBIE Afflalo into the guard rotation for 30 minutes of playing time, and expect the guard-rotation to pickup on Afflalo style of play n win.
Calderon, Galloway, Grant, Sasha, and Lance has been learning off of each other since working out in Puerto Rico, our guard-rotation may have looked suspect with our lead-guard Calderon playing lost to start the season off, but we won 4 games out of 8 games vs playoff teams using rookie Grant defensive prowness for short periods in the final minute of games.

Lou Amundson at best is a one on one defender n rebounder who hustle lifts up a team, but putting a NEWBIE Lou in the rotation as Lopez backup 2 games in a row was not a good decision by coach Fisher, especially minutes in the 4th quarter of tight scoring game.
Lopez & Quinn has been playing their best defensive-ball in the 2nd half of each of our regular season games by preventing opponents slashing-guards from scoring in the 4th qtr. with help defense from Lance Thomas, Galloway, n Grant coming from behind the opponent.
Fisher experiment of giving NEWBIES Afflalo and Lou a lot of minutes of playingtime in the 2nd half of the games resulted in two losses.
 

tiger0330

Legend
I'm going to cut some slack for Fisher because the Knicks are exceeding my expectations. He's done some good things that are contributing to a better season like pretty much scrapping that triangle offense.

He's got so many new guys that I expected chemistry and growing pain issues for the first couple of months. DWill is starting to look more like a backup rotation player rather than a blossoming starter, Affalo has only played a few games and Grant needs a half season before I think he's ready to be a starter. Factors like that are going to cause some issues with the lineup. I've been saying let's see what the record looks like on Dec. 1 before calling for Fisher's head.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
I'm going to cut some slack for Fisher because the Knicks are exceeding my expectations. He's done some good things that are contributing to a better season like pretty much scrapping that triangle offense.

He's got so many new guys that I expected chemistry and growing pain issues for the first couple of months. DWill is starting to look more like a backup rotation player rather than a blossoming starter, Affalo has only played a few games and Grant needs a half season before I think he's ready to be a starter. Factors like that are going to cause some issues with the lineup. I've been saying let's see what the record looks like on Dec. 1 before calling for Fisher's head.


I was hoping Fisher would've been bold like head-coaches Red Holzman, Hubie Brown, n Pat Riley by starting the season by having two different lineups, a 2nd unit lineup to replace the starter lineup.
That's the way u teach a SYSTEM, plus get players gellin together in a lineup, before midseason.
However, when news got out that the 2nd unit lineup beat our starter lineup in smimage games in training-camp n during preseason practice, it became official Phil paid way to much for our starter lineup the past two offseason .. Think coach Melo calling shots too.

The chemistry amongst our big men are not there, bc Amundson, Serafin, Quinn, are Lopez backup.
We have rarely seen Fisher put Amundson, or Serafin, or Quinn in a lineup with Lopez.
Playing 7.3 rookie Zingis at the PF is a good move for us .. Why?
The only time Melo play SF is when Zingis are in the lineup. Melo at PF has always been our teams weakness.
Plus Zingis raw skills inside the paint give us a edge, but Zingis positioning on offense/defense need lots of work.

We been playing a lot of 3 guard offense in our lineup n we have 3 guards that play with somewhat chemistry in Grant, Galloway, Sasha. But starter guards Calderon n Afflalo will be getting the most minute of playing time.
 
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Kiyaman

Legend
Tiger .. I believe this post belong in Fisher's experiment rotation n lineup

This post describe Fisher silly (Dolan type) coaching perfect .. sorry to break anyone hart but "Kyle Quinn" dominating paint performance throughout the preseason game made him the perfect tandem big man starter to put next to Lopez to give us inside scoring in the paint.
Dolan idea, Phil idea, or Fisher idea to start rookie KP over Quinn at the start of the season were STUPID!
A 2nd unit lineup of Serafin, KP, D.Will, Galloway, and Grant would've been the perfect depth lineup our first 25 games


Keith Schlosser wrote this piece on the players minutes, this early season experimenting has to end. Fisher needs to figure out those guys that deserve minutes night in and night out, if that means sitting down your 13M big man where he's only getting 20mpg and giving a guy like Seraphin more minutes than him so be it. That group that finished the Pelicans game deserves to finish the next few games, their lockdown perimeter D was big down the stretch.


On Sunday, Kevin Seraphin’s 12 point performance not only represented his best of the season, but also the first time he’s scored in double-fingers since the Knicks’ first preseason game. It was also the first time, since, that he had played more than 13 minutes in a game.

The 25 year old fought through a nagging injury in the preseason, but since regaining form, hasn’t gotten the minutes such aforementioned performances suggest he needs.

This has seemingly been the case for many other Knicks so far in the early goings, such as Derrick Williams, Kyle O’Quinn, and even Robin Lopez. New York has had multiple games where Coach Derek Fisher has ushered every one of his soldiers out onto the hardwood. While it’s one thing to say the season is still young and it’s worthwhile figuring things out, such experiments are detrimental to the players who clearly deserve and require the minutes to be productive.

O’Quinn is a great example. The big man is a high energy guy whose positive impact on a game is not only often evident, but clearly infectious as well. In every game that he’s played 12 minutes or more, O’Quinn has logged at least six points. He’s also grabbed at least five rebounds in all but one of those games. In the two games during which he’s played more than twenty minutes, O’Quinn has also logged at least 10 rebounds and 3 assists.

Needless to say, he’s been productive. With that in mind, playing O’Quinn just 12 total minutes over the last two games is questionable, to say the least. After scoring 24 points in just 21 minutes in the Knicks’ season-opening win, Derrick Williams is yet to see as much playing time in any of the games that have followed. Robin Lopez’s 25.8 minutes per game represents his lowest minutes average in four seasons.

The Knicks’ frontline is obviously a crowded one. Aside from Carmelo Anthony and Kristaps Porzingis, Lance Thomas is the only other member receiving consistent minutes; he’s yet to play fewer than 15 minutes in a contest. Even Lopez, the team’s starting center, cannot say the same thing.

A few things to note; at 5-6, the Knicks have looked competitive. They were 5-36 through 41 games last season, so this is undoubtedly a step in the right direction. And of course, different players will hear their numbers called (at least, more often) on a nightly basis depending on the matchup at hand.

Nevertheless, underutilizing players and/or otherwise tossing them to the curb is another thing. The Knicks have tremendous depth, and that should continue to be viewed as an asset. Not providing certain players with consistent minutes could be considered negligence when taking into account how well a player (O’Quinn is still the best example of the bunch) is performing. There needs to be consistency, and Coach Fisher should provide such players with an assist in the form of balanced playing time in order to help them find respective rhythms.

If they aren’t receiving the minutes necessary, there’s a good chance players will underwhelm when suddenly called upon again.

Players need to rewarded for good play. It’d be a shame to see Seraphin’s great outing on Sunday be disregarded in the games to come. When a player like Porzingis is shooting 36% in his last six games, there are reserves nipping at his heels, hungry for more minutes, in the meantime.

Coach Fisher needs to find a better way of utilizing the talent the team has available to them, because otherwise, it’ll go to waste and certain players may not necessarily be ready when actually needed.
 

tiger0330

Legend
Here's another article re: Fisher's rotations. Maybe what I've read that nobody on the team other than Gallo and Zinger have stood out as players you must have in the rotation is true because this writer has a different opinion than me of who has been performing. Lance Thomas unlike what is written in this article is producing on the offensive end with a 43% 3 pt avg and providing hustle defense, he's earned his time on the court. He also wants Rolo in during crunch time but Seraphin deserves a look given his recent games, maybe he comes back to earth like DWill seems to have but Fisher needs to find out

Funny what he said below is what I said in the Hornets game thread when the Knicks went cold at the end of the game.

"Those losses will be on the coach."

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/11/18/knicks-derek-fisher-john-schmeelk-carmelo-anthony/

The Knicks were never going to win a title this season. Instead, the simple hope was for them to be competent.

So far, sitting at 6-6, that’s exactly what they have been.

There’s no cause to throw a party for a team playing .500 basketball, but given how last season went for the Knicks, what has gone down so far has been a true accomplishment. The team is right smack in the middle of the NBA in offensive and defensive efficiency, ranking 13th and 14th, respectively.

Much of the credit needs to go to the players. To say Kristaps Porzingis is ahead of schedule would be the understatement of the century. He is a top two rookie in the league so far this season, and his game seems to grow on a nightly basis. He is already adding post moves to his repertoire that other players never figure out. His jump shot began to fall Tuesday night against Charlotte, and he continues to play defense and rebound like a veteran.

Carmelo Anthony has not been perfect, but he has been very good. His shooting has been better recently, but his percentage is still barely above 40. He hasn’t shot well late in games, isn’t finishing near the rim consistently and struggles getting around screens and closing out defensively.

Melo still misses open teammates from time to time, but his attitude is right. He has been a willing passer most of the time, and has confidence in his teammates to make shots. Late in the fourth on Tuesday, Anthony passed up a fairly open 3-pointer and gave it to Langston Galloway for a wide open shot. He is moving the ball and involving his teammates. This is what the team’s star needs to do.

Galloway is shooting the lights out, and there isn’t anything he does that is a liability. Jose Calderon has picked up his shooting. Jerian Grant gets to the rim. Arron Afflalo is back and is showing off his mid-range game. Robin Lopez is doing what he was paid to do. Even Kevin Seraphin has played well offensively for two straight games.

Derek Fisher, however, is not doing his players any favors with his rotations. To his credit, he has opened up the offense and the team is playing faster (until recently), but Fisher still doesn’t know who to play. Lopez, for seemingly no good reason, has found himself stapled to the bench in the last two fourth quarters. Sure, Seraphin has scored some points (and even made some nice passes the last two games), but he hurts the team defensively and rebounding the ball. He might be a hot, but he is not someone the Knicks can feature offensively late in games as the season moves on.

Likewise, Lou Amundson has found himself as a prominent rotation member, playing instead of Lopez and seemingly replacing Kyle O’Quinn as a regular contributor. Amundson tries hard, but his skill set is very limited. Playing him with Lance Thomas puts the Knicks behind the 8-ball offensively. He is not a two-way player in any way, shape, or form. If he is playing major minutes for the Knicks, they aren’t going to go very far.

Fisher needs to decide what players he wants to use late in games. Obviously, Anthony needs to be on the floor, and so does Porzingis. Galloway’s shooting and defense on quicker guards makes him an obvious addition as well. The other two players can rotate between Calderon, Afflalo, Lopez and even Grant depending on matchups. There’s no reason for Amundson, Seraphin, or Thomas to be playing over any of the players above. They just aren’t as good. Twice in recent games Fisher has given Thomas the responsibility of inbounding in key end-of-game situations, and twice he has thrown bad passes.

Fisher played 13 players over the weekend against New Orleans and 12 on Tuesday against Charlotte. For some reason he found the need to play Sasha Vujacic in both games. Fisher can’t play more than 10 players consistently game to game. It takes his better players off the floor for far too long. He needs to decide what players are in his rotation and which shouldn’t be (Vujacic, Amundson) sooner rather than later. Those players will get chances when injuries happen. Until then they need to be on the bench.

Fisher has made progress since his rookie season, but he still has a lot of work to do. Luckily for him, his players are playing well enough to mask some of those problems. But sooner or later having Amundson, Vujacic or Seraphin on the floor when they shouldn’t be is going to cost the team games.

Those losses will be on the coach.
 
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Kiyaman

Legend
We are goin on a 4 game road trip with a 6-6 record, having a experimenting coach who hasn't decided on a main rotation or a closing lineup for crunchtime games. Our next 6 games are going to be rough without having a main rotation of players.

Here's my 8 man rotation for the final 8 minute of a game to close it out ..

PG-Grants defense
SG-Galloways 2 way service
SF-Melo
PF-Quinn 2 way service
C- Lopez defense
6th man Zingis
7th man Afflalo
8th man Lance
 

tiger0330

Legend
We are goin on a 4 game road trip with a 6-6 record, having a experimenting coach who hasn't decided on a main rotation or a closing lineup for crunchtime games. Our next 6 games are going to be rough without having a main rotation of players.

Here's my 8 man rotation for the final 8 minute of a game to close it out ..

PG-Grants defense
SG-Galloways 2 way service
SF-Melo
PF-Quinn 2 way service
C- Lopez defense
6th man Zingis
7th man Afflalo
8th man Lance
I like these 8, the Knicks have won the last 2 with Serafin though so I would experiment with him to see if he's better than Quinn.

Lopez is slow on his feet so with the better perimeter shooting teams with stretch 4's I would have Zinger at C and maybe Thomas at the 4 for defensive purposes.
 

Paul1355

All Star
I think Fisher is a good coach in practice but not in the game. Players play hard for him, which is something you need. I don't want to see guys losing their man because of lack of hustle and will.

However, Fisher's in game decisions and inability to adjust is maddening. He also has this annoying tendency of benching players with a hot hand for extended periods of time. He also doesn't play certain guys enough like Williams and Grant while favoring Calderon and Lance Thomas who are clearly not as skilled.

He has favorites, but I do like how he plays most of the roster.

Overall ill give him a C-

He almost blew the last game because he benched Porzingis for pretty much the whole 4th quarter and we couldnt score.

He has a lot to learn.
 

sw995

Rookie
I think his rotations are a bit big right now, but thats ok. Its november, which means this is the time to try out different times. It is kinda annoying when Admunson and Thomas get all that PT, since we still arent sure what Early is capable of. But we'l see if he can tighten the rotation in late December.
 

tiger0330

Legend
We're 8-8 but the bench is trending downhill, Fish needs to do what he can to nip this in the bud. Start fixing things, put Sasha in a suit and Early back in uni. 27% SGs hitting 15% of their 3 pt shots aren't going to win you any games.

Skiles moved Oladipo to the bench with great results last game. Maybe move either Lopez or #kp6 to the second unit to see if that can produce some consistent wins playing along side Seraphin and Quinn who get more minutes than they've been getting. Seraphin playing with Quinn like Fish toyed with in Orlando is not going to get it done.
 

DrB

Benchwarmer
I think Fisher is a good coach in practice but not in the game. Players play hard for him, which is something you need. I don't want to see guys losing their man because of lack of hustle and will.

However, Fisher's in game decisions and inability to adjust is maddening. He also has this annoying tendency of benching players with a hot hand for extended periods of time. He also doesn't play certain guys enough like Williams and Grant while favoring Calderon and Lance Thomas who are clearly not as skilled.

He has favorites, but I do like how he plays most of the roster.

Overall ill give him a C-

He almost blew the last game because he benched Porzingis for pretty much the whole 4th quarter and we couldnt score.

He has a lot to learn.
I have lost patience with Fisher and he's got to go. He's here only because Kerr wanted no part of the KNICKS. Get Mark Jackson or McHale fast.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
We played our 17th game of the season, and our coach Fisher are still coaching as if this is the first or second game of the season by experimenting with a 12 man rotation throughout our games vs competitive winning teams.

Last night vs the Miami Heat 78-70 lead in the beginning of the 4th quarter coach Fisher did not put or have a confidence closing lineup on the court, the Miami Heat were able to stretch their 8 point lead to 20 pts in the 4th qtr. to win 97-78.
Head coach Fisher and captain Melo will have to select 5 or 6 teammates to be our closing rotation lineup for every game. We need more development from our starter lineup, plus put together a closer lineup.
 

mafra

Legend
NY Post has an article up today... Evaluating Fisher as a HC niw that we are 100 games into the experiment:

(A partial blurb):

"By some accounts, Fisher has improved in many areas, including communication and getting his players to embrace the defensive game plan. However, an inability to pare the rotation to a traditional 8- to 10-man group, along with random substitution patterns, created recent howling.

During a recent Garden visit, Charlotte coach Steve Clifford said he doesn?t even like playing a 10-man unit.

?Playing 10 guys is hard for me to get enough minutes for players to get a rhythm,?? Clifford said. ?If I play nine, it?s a whole different world.??

Charley Rosen, Jackson?s confidant and former CBA head coach, discounts Fisher?s 2014-15 record because it was ?a throwaway season with guys who had no interest in playing team ball.??

However, Rosen, who meets regularly with Jackson, is concerned the new guys are not mastering the triangle when Fisher attempts to run it. The Knicks? scoring average (96.1 per game) ranked 28th entering Saturday. They are shooting 38 percent during the losing streak.

?The team is not really running the triangle well at all,?? said Rosen, who writes a column for todaysfastbreak.com. ?I don?t know whose fault it is. It?s more difficult with a lot guys who haven?t played it before. It?s one of the reasons they have trouble scoring points. They?re not running the offense. One manifestation is you see [Carmelo Anthony] in 1-on-1 situations, doing his LeBron [James] routine. If you?re running the triangle, you can?t double-team him.

?The triangle has flat-lined. Is it Fisher?s responsibility? It?s too soon to put blame on him for it not functioning, but it?s something to look out for. At some point the onus will be on Fisher.??
 

sw995

Rookie
I have lost patience with Fisher and he's got to go. He's here only because Kerr wanted no part of the KNICKS. Get Mark Jackson or McHale fast.

not sure about jax, but i like mchale

how about this dark horse candidate: jeff van gundy? actually i seem to remember him and phil having beef
 

tiger0330

Legend
NY Post has an article up today... Evaluating Fisher as a HC niw that we are 100 games into the experiment:

(A partial blurb):

"By some accounts, Fisher has improved in many areas, including communication and getting his players to embrace the defensive game plan. However, an inability to pare the rotation to a traditional 8- to 10-man group, along with random substitution patterns, created recent howling.

During a recent Garden visit, Charlotte coach Steve Clifford said he doesn’t even like playing a 10-man unit.

“Playing 10 guys is hard for me to get enough minutes for players to get a rhythm,’’ Clifford said. “If I play nine, it’s a whole different world.’’

Charley Rosen, Jackson’s confidant and former CBA head coach, discounts Fisher’s 2014-15 record because it was “a throwaway season with guys who had no interest in playing team ball.’’

However, Rosen, who meets regularly with Jackson, is concerned the new guys are not mastering the triangle when Fisher attempts to run it. The Knicks’ scoring average (96.1 per game) ranked 28th entering Saturday. They are shooting 38 percent during the losing streak.

“The team is not really running the triangle well at all,’’ said Rosen, who writes a column for todaysfastbreak.com. “I don’t know whose fault it is. It’s more difficult with a lot guys who haven’t played it before. It’s one of the reasons they have trouble scoring points. They’re not running the offense. One manifestation is you see [Carmelo Anthony] in 1-on-1 situations, doing his LeBron [James] routine. If you’re running the triangle, you can’t double-team him.

“The triangle has flat-lined. Is it Fisher’s responsibility? It’s too soon to put blame on him for it not functioning, but it’s something to look out for. At some point the onus will be on Fisher.’’
Not running that overrated offense is helping not hurting the Knicks. I heard Fish may shorten his rotation soon. I would bench Sasha and activate CleEarly and see if he can help rekindle this offense that has fallen to 28th in the NBA. Next 3 games are against teams with a worse record than the Knicks, let's see if they can start a 3 game win streak beginning with the Rox.

Hard to believe how bad the Rox are but Harden had to score 50 for them to barely beat the 76ers by 2 points their last game.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
Its hard to believe our past 4 games were a huge reminder of last season Knicks.
Fisher weird experimenting coaching let the Rox beat us in overtime.
Fisher experiment-substitution let the Miami Heats blow us out in both games last week.

This week we are under a lot of pressure playing the 2 bottom teams in the East!
Phil Jax ex-Lakers gave Philly 76ers their first win, and we play the hot 76ers tomorrow.
The Brooklyn Nets are hot on a 2 game win streak, and we play them this week too.
 
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