OK .. back to the drawing-board of making rotation Lineups for the next 57 games?

We will have 3 days off and 2 strong practice session after our 25th game of the season vs Portland Blazers.

We are back on another 4 game losing streak .. what that means is our starter lineup has graded a C- minus performance in 24 games, and the B+ plus 2nd unit lineup we started the season with has dropped down to a C- minus performance also in 24 games by way of our coach Fisher (in n out) spot-minute substitution of mixing 9 bench-players into the 2nd unit lineup with Melo at the PF in the 2nd unit lineup.
Coach Fisher 24 game experiment with the 2nd unit lineup has our record at 10-14, making us a 12th seeded team in the East. Our starter lineup has been receiving 18 minutes of playingtime together in a lineup each of our 24 games, their gelling-chemistry is awful on offense and non-existence on defense, their 18 minutes each game has taking us on a 3 game losing streak, then a 4 game losing streak, and now another 4 game losing streak. Changes need to be made in our starter unit, plus we must start playing our bench players in the same lineup to build confidence in the lineup.

What player or players should be remove from our Starter lineup to stay a .500 team?

Should we put a all bench lineup on the court to start the 2nd qtr. n 4th qtr.?
if yes, what 6 bench players should be in the lineup?

What 7 players should we look forward to seeing on the court as our CLOSER lineup?

Im looking for answers to be a a .500 team by midseason ....

Tough call... I mean, the starting lineup as a unit has only played 10-15 games toether? When did AA return? I think we should also stick with Lopez, mainly bc we should hope to fetch a Mozgov like deal for Rolo... Grab 2 picks or something....

But... If it were me... And based on what opponent we are playing... I would start Calderon-Affalo-Thomas-Melo-Porz. I would sub in LG, RL, and Williams first (for Calderon-Thomas-Porz)... then yank AA and Melo for Sasha and Porz... Something like that. Grant, Quinn, Amundsom ride the pine for now...

I have LG-AA-KP-Melo and either JC or LT on the floor to close.

Bottom line:

Melo is a 4 and Porz a 5... Moving fwd for the tme being. LT and DW are the SF duo. Rolo a backup C...

SAC said they had Porzingis #2 on their draft board... Might've taken him first...

"Lopez had a two-point, zero-rebound game in 19 minutes at Utah on Wednesday. He has 10 rebounds and 19 points in his last four games after getting six points and seven rebounds in his matchup with the Kings? DeMarcus Cousins."

Time for Rolo to head to the bench...

mafra said:

SAC said they had Porzingis #2 on their draft board... Might've taken him first...

"Lopez had a two-point, zero-rebound game in 19 minutes at Utah on Wednesday. He has 10 rebounds and 19 points in his last four games after getting six points and seven rebounds in his matchup with the Kings’ DeMarcus Cousins."

Time for Rolo to head to the bench...

Click to expand...

Hard to believe PJ would sign this stiff, he's the worst fit for a big man in the triangle, no ball handling or passing skills whatsoever. We may be stuck with him for another 4 years with that contract, I'm not sure anyone wants to pay him 13M for what he brings to the court.

I'd start Melo as the PF. I don't think he hurts you there at all, didn't he get 15 rbs in the Sactown game? If he has to play closer to the basket as a 4, it may keep him from shooting those long range threes and bringing the ball up the court in transition which slows the Knicks up.

Part of my reasoning that the Knicks were no better than a 35 win team this year was the FA's that were signed and Calderon. Past performance suggested these guy were role players and wouldn't be enough to get them to the playoffs. They had a nice start but the signings are coming back to earth so the Knicks may not have the talent to get back to .500 ball.

Our roster vs the legendary triangle-offense system ???

When u mention the famous Phil Jackson triangle-offense there are a few important things u must remember, one of those things were the "Point" and the two big-men.
Here are the players that lead the point for Phil Jackson triangle championship rings .. Paxon, Jordan, Pippin, Harper, Kobe, and Derek Fisher.

Jordan had a natural center and PF in Bill Cartwright & Horace Grant, then Luc Longley & Rodman.
Kobe Bryant had a natural center and PF in Shaq & Robert Horry, then Andrew Bynum & Gasol
Natural means they been playing that position in High School.

tiger0330 said:

I'd start Melo as the PF. I don't think he hurts you there at all, didn't he get 15 rbs in the Sactown game? If he has to play closer to the basket as a 4, it may keep him from shooting those long range threes and bringing the ball up the court in transition which slows the Knicks up.

Part of my reasoning that the Knicks were no better than a 35 win team this year was the FA's that were signed and Calderon. Past performance suggested these guy were role players and wouldn't be enough to get them to the playoffs. They had a nice start but the signings are coming back to earth so the Knicks may not have the talent to get back to .500 ball.

Click to expand...

I'm only concern about developing young players .. Grant, Gallo, KP, Quinn, Lance, Serafin, and D.Will.
...

Melo at PF makes our defense weak! .. "Melo don't switch on defense!"
Camby mention it in Denver n got traded, and Tyson Chandler mention it in NY n got traded.

Here's a short version of Melo stardom career ....
Melo n Miller n Camby made Denver a .500 team.
Iverson n Camby made Denver a 50 win team, then Billups n Kenyon Martin made Denver a 50 win team.
Denver Nuggets paid max money to Iverson, K-Mart, and Billups to make their NCAA championship star Melo into a NBA Star scorer. Plus the Nuggets organization gave coach Karl a huge contract to coach their young scorer-star.

Phil Jackson was offering max money to any NBA star player to come help Melo stay a star-scorer.
No one wanted the legendary Phil Jackson Max money! Not Gasol, not DeAndre, not Aldrige, not even role-player Greg Monroe lol .. FA David West blasted our organization as being losers to the press.
So I was happy to get what we got .. We all knew Lopez and Afflalo receive contracts twice their worth so there should be no high expectation. And we all should know the reason why Lopez n Afflalo were give such a high salary.
Enough about Melo .. we are stuck with Melo for the 3 year advance he received for resigning.

(NY Post)

Why Fisher singled out Carmelo in Knicks-wide tirade


Knicks coach Derek Fisher almost never calls out a player directly to the media, but he clearly sent a message to the struggling Carmelo Anthony following Wednesday?s disgraceful loss in Salt Lake City.

Before the Knicks? 99-97 loss to the Kings on Thursday night, in which Anthony missed a 3-pointer at the buzzer, Melo had a dismal night in Utah, shooting 3-of-11 and finishing with 12 points. Anthony had shot 35 percent over the past six games. His overall shooting percentage had fallen to 40.3 percent.

Anthony was better against the Kings, scoring 23 points on 8-for-21 shooting, but still couldn?t deliver in the end.

He also looked much more engaged than he did in Utah, when he was not joining the huddles during second-half timeouts. Nevertheless, an encouraging scene was his sitting next to rookie phenom Kristaps Porzingis, who had his worst outing, during the second-half blowout by the Jazz.

Fisher did not seem bothered by Anthony?s statistics. Almost never critical of Anthony, Fisher seemed irritated by a decline in his star?s defensive tenacity against the Jazz and perhaps other intangibles: setting screens, fighting through screens, moving the ball, body language. Anthony finished with just two assists and had five rebounds ? none on the offensive glass ? while Gordon Hayward destroyed him with 13 first-quarter points (24 points total). Anthony never got close to him.

?The shooting percentage maybe isn?t there,?? Fisher said of Anthony?s numbers. ?But overall it?s a collective energy from our group. That?s the biggest issue. The shooting will always go up and down. For Melo, it?s not any different. You got to find ways to do winning things when it?s not going so well, when the stats aren?t going for you.??

Anthony sounded urgent after the Utah travesty, even if he didn?t look so during the game. He has talked often about having the club play at a faster pace ? the way the game has evolved. The Knicks rank last in the league in fast-break points.

mafra said:

(NY Post)

Why Fisher singled out Carmelo in Knicks-wide tirade


Knicks coach Derek Fisher almost never calls out a player directly to the media, but he clearly sent a message to the struggling Carmelo Anthony following Wednesday’s disgraceful loss in Salt Lake City.

Before the Knicks’ 99-97 loss to the Kings on Thursday night, in which Anthony missed a 3-pointer at the buzzer, Melo had a dismal night in Utah, shooting 3-of-11 and finishing with 12 points. Anthony had shot 35 percent over the past six games. His overall shooting percentage had fallen to 40.3 percent.

Anthony was better against the Kings, scoring 23 points on 8-for-21 shooting, but still couldn’t deliver in the end.

He also looked much more engaged than he did in Utah, when he was not joining the huddles during second-half timeouts. Nevertheless, an encouraging scene was his sitting next to rookie phenom Kristaps Porzingis, who had his worst outing, during the second-half blowout by the Jazz.

Fisher did not seem bothered by Anthony’s statistics. Almost never critical of Anthony, Fisher seemed irritated by a decline in his star’s defensive tenacity against the Jazz and perhaps other intangibles: setting screens, fighting through screens, moving the ball, body language. Anthony finished with just two assists and had five rebounds — none on the offensive glass — while Gordon Hayward destroyed him with 13 first-quarter points (24 points total). Anthony never got close to him.

“The shooting percentage maybe isn’t there,’’ Fisher said of Anthony’s numbers. “But overall it’s a collective energy from our group. That’s the biggest issue. The shooting will always go up and down. For Melo, it’s not any different. You got to find ways to do winning things when it’s not going so well, when the stats aren’t going for you.’’

Anthony sounded urgent after the Utah travesty, even if he didn’t look so during the game. He has talked often about having the club play at a faster pace — the way the game has evolved. The Knicks rank last in the league in fast-break points.

Click to expand...

Which is why I said he should go play the 4 and not bring the ball up in transition as the point forward.

Here are the THREE lineups we need to give over 12 minutes in every game

Starter lineup

Rolo
Quinn
Melo
Lance or Afflalo
Calderon
6th Man Afflalo or Lance

Seconnd-Unit

Serafin
KP
D.Will
Lance or Afflalo
Gallo
6th man Grant

Closers lineup .. the final 6 minutes of a close game

Rolo
Quinn
Melo
Lance
Gallo
6th Man Afflalo/Sasha/Serafin

With Reggie emerging in DET... It seems like Jennings is odd man out... Just a bench player. He's on his contract year... And rumblings around MSG hints this might be the type of in-season upgrade at PG Phil will pursue...

In a dream scenario... A playoff potential like DET might seek a vet guard to provide leadership... Calderon flip for BJ?

Anyway... I think Quinn and Williams are in the dog house bc they don't practice hard nor pay attention to detail on the floor.

Williams playing less minutes now than he did in SAC... Crazy! Maybe give these 2 a few weeks of serious burn... Start Williams at SF... And see if something clicks.

I would sit Grant for a few games... Get his head on straight... Then start him and tell him to do 2 things: play defense... Push the ball! Also, penetrate whenever possible.

I think if we split the two young guards we might make it easier... LG with JC and AA with Grant.

mafra said:

With Reggie emerging in DET... It seems like Jennings is odd man out... Just a bench player. He's on his contract year... And rumblings around MSG hints this might be the type of in-season upgrade at PG Phil will pursue...

In a dream scenario... A playoff potential like DET might seek a vet guard to provide leadership... Calderon flip for BJ?

Anyway... I think Quinn and Williams are in the dog house bc they don't practice hard nor pay attention to detail on the floor.

Williams playing less minutes now than he did in SAC... Crazy! Maybe give these 2 a few weeks of serious burn... Start Williams at SF... And see if something clicks.

I would sit Grant for a few games... Get his head on straight... Then start him and tell him to do 2 things: play defense... Push the ball! Also, penetrate whenever possible.

I think if we split the two young guards we might make it easier... LG with JC and AA with Grant.

Click to expand...

Calderon for Jennings, not going to happen straight up but would the Knicks do it if they asked for Galloway in exchange for a Dinwiddie. I think that might be a good trade for both teams and finestrg likes Dinwiddie.

I wonder what practice was like today .. we got 3 full days off accept for two practices
We should've made it 3 days of practice .. our win Saturday was to stop a 4 game losing streak.

After 25 games .. I'm convince on the real 5 players to give 30 minute of playing time a night to keep us a .500 season team the next 25 games .. Rolo, Quinn, Melo, Lance, and Galloway ..

i would imagine that fisher's criteria for how to distribute minutes is dependent on two factors: being a two-way player and being triangle savvy.

it doesn't look like fisher and the knicks have figured it out yet-- the triangle is tough and it has its critics, but phil believes in system basketball.

then there's the chemistry that duos and trios may possess even if five players are not playing as a unit consistently.

with these things in mind, i would like to see this as the starting five:

galloway
afflalo
thomas
kp6
melo

bench:

calderon
williams
lopez
oquinn or seraphin

9-man rotation

dk7th said:

i would imagine that fisher's criteria for how to distribute minutes is dependent on two factors: being a two-way player and being triangle savvy.

it doesn't look like fisher and the knicks have figured it out yet-- the triangle is tough and it has its critics, but phil believes in system basketball.

then there's the chemistry that duos and trios may possess even if five players are not playing as a unit consistently.

with these things in mind, i would like to see this as the starting five:

galloway
afflalo
thomas
kp6
melo

bench:

calderon
williams
lopez
oquinn or seraphin

9-man rotation

Click to expand...

A month ago I would have been for starting Gallo and having JC come off the bench but Calderons game has come around and Gallo is trending in the other direction. The Knicks are one of the few teams Calderon would be the starting PG for so I'd like to see if PJ can pull off the Jennings trade that's been rumored.

I've been in favor of breaking up that twin tower lineup of Rolo/kp6 and having a 7ft'er in the second unit. I don't see much chemistry with a Rolo/Melo lineup so make kp6 the starting 5.

dk7th said:

i would imagine that fisher's criteria for how to distribute minutes is dependent on two factors: being a two-way player and being triangle savvy.

it doesn't look like fisher and the knicks have figured it out yet-- the triangle is tough and it has its critics, but phil believes in system basketball.

then there's the chemistry that duos and trios may possess even if five players are not playing as a unit consistently.

with these things in mind, i would like to see this as the starting five:

galloway
afflalo
thomas
kp6
melo

bench:

calderon
williams
lopez
oquinn or seraphin

9-man rotation

Click to expand...

Grant should have been starter from day 1. You pair #kporzee and him together because they represent the future, otherwise we made a bad selection on trade asset acquired from the Hawks for Tim-Bug Jr. Grant is by no means a young rookie, he's 23 and while under Fisher's tutelage falling behind the learning curve. He is not the difference between winning and losing platooning with Calderon and Galloway who in their own rights with more NBA experience have their incredible flaws. Developing players involves a process of taking the good with the bad. I can clearly see #kporzee's career will be filled with a carousel of backcourt journeyman players, because we operate and do everything "by feel" instead of by principle.

I mean look at Shane Larkin he's having a GOODERER season as any of our guards sans Afflalo. He's arguably GOODERER than Calderon/Galloway/Grant. Calderon can't guard a corpse, Galloway has horrific ball distribution and often times shotty defense, Grant very green can be turnover prone but plays hard

Oh and why is it no one discusses the other GREAT ANTHINAYYYYYYYY on our team? You know Clea, the asset Phil stole from Dallas right? <----ROTFLOL

When is the last time we properly developed young players together? Yes agreed though Fisher needs to shorten his rotation, playing 12guys Flava-O-D-Day players every game is grotesque and incredibly unprofessional.

Broadway said:

Grant should have been starter from day 1. You pair #kporzee and him together because they represent the future, otherwise we made a bad selection on trade asset acquired from the Hawks for Tim-Bug Jr. Grant is by no means a young rookie, he's 23 and while under Fisher's tutelage falling behind the learning curve. He is not the difference between winning and losing platooning with Calderon and Galloway who in their own rights with more NBA experience have their incredible flaws. Developing players involves a process of taking the good with the bad. I can clearly see #kporzee's career will be filled with a carousel of backcourt journeyman players, because we operate and do everything "by feel" instead of by principle.

I mean look at Shane Larkin he's having a GOODERER season as any of our guards sans Afflalo. He's arguably GOODERER than Calderon/Galloway/Grant. Calderon can't guard a corpse, Galloway has horrific ball distribution and often times shotty defense, Grant very green can be turnover prone but plays hard

Oh and why is it no one discusses the other GREAT ANTHINAYYYYYYYY on our team? You know Clea, the asset Phil stole from Dallas right? <----ROTFLOL

When is the last time we properly developed young players together? Yes agreed though Fisher needs to shorten his rotation, playing 12guys Flava-O-D-Day players every game is grotesque and incredibly unprofessional.

Click to expand...

I don't like the idea of ROOKIEs being in the lineup as a Starter or Closer, especially before they played their first 50 games as a PRO. It doesn't matter how great the rookies talent are, all rookies need to learn about being a starter n finisher in the pros from watching on the bench.
Each year there are more n more rookies added to the starter lineup, another reason the NBA has become water-down.

In my opinion Galloway n Grant are having a better season performance than Larkins.
There's no reason Calderon should've been a Knick this season. Phil Jackson had a low cap-space to get us one of the many starter PG in the league through trade or FA during the offseason.
It doesn't matter how well Calderon been looking in the past 10 games, Calderon is not dependable, his decision making in the first half of a game, and his defensive effort in the 2nd half of a game is questionable for a win each game.

Coach Fisher confusment is in our guard rotation of Galloway, Afflalo, Calderon, and rookie Grant or veteran Sasha.
The new Lance Thomas has showed up with a improved 2-way performance that took away any minutes that would've been given to Early.
We are sitting on one of the winning big-men rotation in the East, its just Fisher refuse to tandem Rolo & Quinn in a lineup, and Serafin & KP in a lineup.

Melo at the 4 spot ???
Melo playing point ???
Melo switching on defense ???
Melo being in the lineup for 40 minute ???

Broadway said:

Grant should have been starter from day 1. You pair #kporzee and him together because they represent the future, otherwise we made a bad selection on trade asset acquired from the Hawks for Tim-Bug Jr. Grant is by no means a young rookie, he's 23 and while under Fisher's tutelage falling behind the learning curve. He is not the difference between winning and losing platooning with Calderon and Galloway who in their own rights with more NBA experience have their incredible flaws. Developing players involves a process of taking the good with the bad. I can clearly see #kporzee's career will be filled with a carousel of backcourt journeyman players, because we operate and do everything "by feel" instead of by principle.

I mean look at Shane Larkin he's having a GOODERER season as any of our guards sans Afflalo. He's arguably GOODERER than Calderon/Galloway/Grant. Calderon can't guard a corpse, Galloway has horrific ball distribution and often times shotty defense, Grant very green can be turnover prone but plays hard

Oh and why is it no one discusses the other GREAT ANTHINAYYYYYYYY on our team? You know Clea, the asset Phil stole from Dallas right? <----ROTFLOL

When is the last time we properly developed young players together? Yes agreed though Fisher needs to shorten his rotation, playing 12guys Flava-O-D-Day players every game is grotesque and incredibly unprofessional.

Click to expand...

as to starting grant, were it not for the notion of building a team based on system basketball, i would agree. unfortunately, you need to be able to hit a corner three and a midrange shot, two things grant doesn't do right now. i have other issues with his game but the shooting is a big deal.

the knicks coaching staff is struggling mightily right now to establish an identity, and i think that until all personnel are comfortable playing within the triangle, that we will see some ups and downs. how many times have we been reminded that "it's a process?"

if i thought it would help in the long run, i would allow the guys who struggle in the triangle to be a second unit that has a totally different approach than the starters... we saw that a bunch in the preseason and early season some too. but while that may be more expedient in the short term and medium term, i think it's counterproductive long term.

one final thought: i would really like to see kp6 play the role that lopez is playing now, ie initiating the offense from the post.

Kiyaman said:

Here are the THREE lineups we need to give over 12 minutes in every game

Starter lineup

Rolo
Quinn
Melo
Lance or Afflalo
Calderon
6th Man Afflalo or Lance

Seconnd-Unit

Serafin
KP
D.Will
Lance or Afflalo
Gallo
6th man Grant

Closers lineup .. the final 6 minutes of a close game

Rolo
Quinn
Melo
Lance
Gallo
6th Man Afflalo/Sasha/Serafin

Click to expand...

I would like to thank everyone who participated in this thread.
WE HAVE NOT SEEN ROLO ON E FLOOR AS A CLOSER OFTEN, he played well against PLUMLEE in Portland......but PORLAND missed two open layups in the last minute making the WIN a miracle.

dk7th said:

as to starting grant, were it not for the notion of building a team based on system basketball, i would agree. unfortunately, you need to be able to hit a corner three and a midrange shot, two things grant doesn't do right now. i have other issues with his game but the shooting is a big deal.

the knicks coaching staff is struggling mightily right now to establish an identity, and i think that until all personnel are comfortable playing within the triangle, that we will see some ups and downs. how many times have we been reminded that "it's a process?"

if i thought it would help in the long run, i would allow the guys who struggle in the triangle to be a second unit that has a totally different approach than the starters... we saw that a bunch in the preseason and early season some too. but while that may be more expedient in the short term and medium term, i think it's counterproductive long term.

one final thought: i would really like to see kp6 play the role that lopez is playing now, ie initiating the offense from the post.

Click to expand...

Good thread DRB

we all have to take a step back and realize one thing and one thing only, we are currently over achieving

we have wastebasket talents like oquinn seraphin and d williams who couldnt get resigned for cheap by their own non playoff teams last year, and washington had no use for seraphin

we have two rookies buth trying to pay catch up with 3 veterans

we have a former d leaguer in galloway

we have melo returning from surgery who is just now starting to get his **** together

we have a second year coach and salvaged a west coast road trip

our starting pg is a 7th to 8th man on any other playoff team

we have the second lowest ppg 2nd option I believe in the league with KP behind MELO

aflallo was hurt to start the year

We are in fact a better team

and we are in fact over achieving

so going over what lineups can do what doesnt really matter at this point

we have to keep playing the game and recognize the ups and downs that is an up and coming youthful team with some veteran leadership.

I see good things 3 to 4 years from now if you look at our salary cap specs and what we will have in 2017 with KP developing and grant developing and lance thomas and galloway and melo coming off the books etc etc etc

we will be good down the road

Phils plan is working

we just need to stop thinking his plan is to win right now.