PDA

View Full Version : NBA Ref Shaved Points In Games!!!



Pages : [1] 2

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 20, 2007, 07:56
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07202007...rray_weiss.htm

All i have to say is wow.
I blame the ref for us wining 23 games in 05-06 lol

youadmireme2
Jul 20, 2007, 08:21
I'd like to know which ref and rewatch all the close games the Knicks lost while he was officiating. Could be interesting. There were a few times when I shouted "You're not serious!"... Hmmm

Starks
Jul 20, 2007, 10:08
This is one blow to the league that is going to take years to overcome.

Ladies and Gents, the NBA has bottomed out.

The time is right for other basketball leagues to form. I hate to use this example, but its found in professional wrestling.

WCW started as small market promotion no one knew about until Ted Turner bought it and threw tons of money at familar WWF wrestlers. After the WWF steroid scandals, Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Bret Hart all left for WCW and blew it out of the water.

If a new league was formed I'm sure greedy-ass NBA players wouldn't think twice to join a league where they would get paid more. The first player to "jump ship" , Stephon Marbury comes to mind

Never has their been a better time for a new league. Myself, and I'm sure many others are probably sick to out stomachs after hearning about this...especially after that suspect NBA playoffs.

What do you guys think?

TR1LL10N
Jul 20, 2007, 11:11
This is one blow to the league that is going to take years to overcome.

Ladies and Gents, the NBA has bottomed out.

The time is right for other basketball leagues to form. I hate to use this example, but its found in professional wrestling.

WCW started as small market promotion no one knew about until Ted Turner bought it and threw tons of money at familar WWF wrestlers. After the WWF steroid scandals, Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Bret Hart all left for WCW and blew it out of the water.

If a new league was formed I'm sure greedy-ass NBA players wouldn't think twice to join a league where they would get paid more. The first player to "jump ship" , Stephon Marbury comes to mind

Never has their been a better time for a new league. Myself, and I'm sure many others are probably sick to out stomachs after hearning about this...especially after that suspect NBA playoffs.

What do you guys think?

Thats as good of an idea as the XFL....

KnicksFan4Realz
Jul 20, 2007, 11:52
Thats as good of an idea as the XFL....

Now that was funny...

But seriously...pay the ref's more money....and bring back Joey Crawford...but this is just one bad apple...hopefully this does not turn out to be an epidemic.

nyk_nyk
Jul 20, 2007, 14:08
Now that was funny...

But seriously...pay the ref's more money....and bring back Joey Crawford...but this is just one bad apple...hopefully this does not turn out to be an epidemic.
Joey Crawford is probably the ref in question! He's always throwing people out of games for no good reason. Think about it.

TR1LL10N
Jul 20, 2007, 14:20
They need to penalize and reward the refs dependant on their performance. Have monthly reviews of a random sampling of each refs games worked. Give a score and reward for a certain number and decipline when the score is failing. Make it public and these douchebags may go from the worst officials in pro sports to halfway compitent. (they will still **** the Knicks sp why bother :(

metrocard
Jul 21, 2007, 23:14
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c213/panameno42/photo/8224c6b46e7e8829503f4338e94a.gif

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 22, 2007, 04:09
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c213/panameno42/photo/8224c6b46e7e8829503f4338e94a.gif

LOL Thats funny...
The NBA is screwed, the've blown this one huge. Stern must feel like the biggest ass telling everyone his refs were sacred. HAHA. Hopefully this will change the bias refs have towards superstars and focus more on the team game.

ShairanXIII
Jul 22, 2007, 16:46
Let's not blow this outta proportion... it was one ref working for organized crime... same thing happened in baseball in the 20s (I think)...

besides... NBA refs work in teams of 3... it would be kinda hard for one ref to affect the outcome so badly without getting the attention of the other 2... unless the other 2 were paid off too...

i blame refs for nothing... since ****ty refs exist in every sport and in every league... it's f***ked up... but it's life...

the scary part is they said these were finals games... i wonder if it was game 1 or game 4 of a sweep? maybe games six and seven from 94? lol...

Isiah's Advocate 33
Jul 22, 2007, 19:32
Let's not blow this outta proportion... it was one ref working for organized crime... same thing happened in baseball in the 20s (I think)...

besides... NBA refs work in teams of 3... it would be kinda hard for one ref to affect the outcome so badly without getting the attention of the other 2... unless the other 2 were paid off too...

i blame refs for nothing... since ****ty refs exist in every sport and in every league... it's f***ked up... but it's life...

the scary part is they said these were finals games... i wonder if it was game 1 or game 4 of a sweep? maybe games six and seven from 94? lol...


This is one blow to the league that is going to take years to overcome.

Ladies and Gents, the NBA has bottomed out.

The time is right for other basketball leagues to form. I hate to use this example, but its found in professional wrestling.

WCW started as small market promotion no one knew about until Ted Turner bought it and threw tons of money at familar WWF wrestlers. After the WWF steroid scandals, Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Bret Hart all left for WCW and blew it out of the water.

If a new league was formed I'm sure greedy-ass NBA players wouldn't think twice to join a league where they would get paid more. The first player to "jump ship" , Stephon Marbury comes to mind

Never has their been a better time for a new league. Myself, and I'm sure many others are probably sick to out stomachs after hearning about this...especially after that suspect NBA playoffs.

What do you guys think?

Slow down I don't think it is that serious! What's to say that this wouldn't happen again in your new proposed league? And not to mention this is not just bad for the NBA but all pro sports, I imagine the FEDS are looking into any pro sport that has an official or umpire. But I don't see this really affecting the league as bad as everyone is making it out, did the MLB go under after Pete Rose gambled on games? and that was a manager, who I feel has maybe a little more control on the outcome of a game. As fans of the game it is our job to make sure the league doesn't suffer any set backs as a result of this.

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 22, 2007, 22:39
Let's not blow this outta proportion... it was one ref working for organized crime... same thing happened in baseball in the 20s (I think)...

besides... NBA refs work in teams of 3... it would be kinda hard for one ref to affect the outcome so badly without getting the attention of the other 2... unless the other 2 were paid off too...

i blame refs for nothing... since ****ty refs exist in every sport and in every league... it's f***ked up... but it's life...

the scary part is they said these were finals games... i wonder if it was game 1 or game 4 of a sweep? maybe games six and seven from 94? lol...

Its tru, but the NBA refs are clearly one of the worst. Yes, the job is hard, but refs have no consistency,
The NFL,MLB and NHL all follow guidlines to the tee. Theres no super star treatment in those leagues (or no where near the way it is in the NBA)
Just cause other leagues refs arent great doesnt mean the refs in the nba should be the kings of poo.

jimkcchief88
Jul 23, 2007, 00:45
Just confirmation of long standing rumors and suspicions. This is gonna get a lot bigger when the ref in question starts ratting everybody out. This is what Stern gets for worrying more about "policing" "thug" players when the real crooks were already wearing stripes.

Toons
Jul 23, 2007, 03:28
This is what Stern gets for worrying more about "policing" "thug" players when the real crooks were already wearing stripes.

love the analogy

Toons
Jul 23, 2007, 03:32
really tho, u can hardly compare the officiating in baseball or any other sport to that of basketball....there are so many close calls, so many fouls that i dont see until the replay is slowed down, so many blocks that were on the way down that were called goal tending that i thouhgt were clearly blocks until its in slow motion....i dont like it, and i dont think it will affect this 08 season

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 23, 2007, 08:23
really tho, u can hardly compare the officiating in baseball or any other sport to that of basketball....there are so many close calls, so many fouls that i dont see until the replay is slowed down, so many blocks that were on the way down that were called goal tending that i thouhgt were clearly blocks until its in slow motion....i dont like it, and i dont think it will affect this 08 season

O.. it will def will affect the 08 season becuae the FBI just made a statement saying that Tim Donaghy will cooperate and possibly give up mob guy, other refs and players involved.
Imagine if Shaq or jordon (who has a gambling problem was involved?)
im sure tim will be copping a plea and ratting someone out.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2945840
The part about other players and refs is in the middle of the page

Starks
Jul 23, 2007, 09:20
This is going to be a bigger issue in the NBA than anything we've evere seen. I really have a feeling this story is just the tip of the iceberg. Even the NY Daily News are putting this story on their cover (see, "NBA KNEW!" 7.23.07)

Kudos to the NY Post for bringing this into the lime light. As much flak the Post gets, they really do have the absolute best sports in coverage in town.

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 23, 2007, 09:25
The post is garbage. They are paparazzi whores. They love the negative media, like they really wanted to yanks to suck so they can trash them all yr. They trash the Giants, the Isles, the yanks, and the knicks. They love the Jets, Rangers, and Mets.
But they broke the bank with this one. They are good at getting sneaky information. This is one of the few times it actually does any good. Usually they do sneaky A-rod stuff, hopefully they try and stick to the real stuff and not the latter.

donchris
Jul 23, 2007, 15:06
This is irony. Every one thought the NBA needed protection from thugs like Artest when it's the refs that are truly bringing the league down. Do you really think this is the only ref to shave points in a game? This is no surprise to the vets and legions of the game. Think of all the questionable calls during the finals and playoffs through out the years. This is just the first guy to get caught. He needs to be brought in for charges. He needs some serious jail time or a law suite at the very least. The league needs to make an example of this guy. What's the hold up?
END HIS CAREER NOW STERN!
NOW!!!!

KnicksFan4Realz
Jul 23, 2007, 15:09
I think this is simply a case of one bad apple in the bunch to be honest. I don't think it's systematic..personally I can't picture...Ronnie Nunn, Dick Bavetta, Joey Crawford getting involved in this kind of thing. Just can't see it....as far as superstar treatment not happening in other sports...I forget who said that but it does too happen in other sports...

A-ROD, Jeter, Bonds, Griffey, Pujols....they get some calls for balls that are really strikes...or pitchers like Clemens, Hallday, Smoltz...get some calls for strikes that are balls....so it's in every sport.

In football Champ Bailey, Deion, DeAngelo Hall, those guys hold all the time..**** their is holding everytime the football is snapped...same thing with false start to get that jump on either side of the line..they don't call it because the damn game would never end.

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 23, 2007, 15:29
I think this is simply a case of one bad apple in the bunch to be honest. I don't think it's systematic..personally I can't picture...Ronnie Nunn, Dick Bavetta, Joey Crawford getting involved in this kind of thing. Just can't see it....as far as superstar treatment not happening in other sports...I forget who said that but it does too happen in other sports...

A-ROD, Jeter, Bonds, Griffey, Pujols....they get some calls for balls that are really strikes...or pitchers like Clemens, Hallday, Smoltz...get some calls for strikes that are balls....so it's in every sport.

In football Champ Bailey, Deion, DeAngelo Hall, those guys hold all the time..**** their is holding everytime the football is snapped...same thing with false start to get that jump on either side of the line..they don't call it because the damn game would never end.

Usually theres fire behind smoke...

1st. in baseball Umpires actaully DONT give superstar preferences. Bum pitchers get the outside corner called just as much as Clemens doenst get the inside pitch called a strike. The same for the batter. It would be too obvious if an umpire is showing prefrence to superstar player becuase the stike zone is either 15,16 or 17 inches. 17 inches is called a loose strikezone, 15 a tight strikezone. Umpires to have jobs have to prove one thing, consistant strikezone.
You dont see managers come out and complain that Clemens is getting their calls and my bum pitcher isnt. They complain about the size of the strikezone.
Pujols is a great batter and has never stoke out 100 times, but A-rod is better and have stuck out more than 100 times several times in his career. So theres no correlation.

2. For football, with all the thing refs have to look at, 11 vs 11 (not 5v5 like in b-ball) do u really think that they give preference to superstars, who arent marketing icons anyway? its harder to be a superstar in the NFL when ur not a QB, WR, or RB. The fact that football player where helmuts and are more difficult to point out by casual fans than baseball and basketball players are. So i dont buy for sec that D. Hall and Champ get any special treatment the way LBJ and Wade do. Plus theres alot of youtube video that shows some arguement for special superstar treatment in the NBA. Find me some for the NFL, lol Good luck.

jzero29
Jul 23, 2007, 17:12
He should be banned for life, should go to prison. Would be nice to know which games he affected and how, but I doubt he'll tell. Maybe abook few years down road. Hope he spills about other refs if there are!

donchris
Jul 23, 2007, 18:38
The Mafia and illegal gambling have been around sense the late 1920's. If they can fix the world series then can surely fix a few NBA games. The only reason the Feds know about this is because of wire taps. Refs could be gambling all the time and we'd never know about it. If this guy was working on his own he'd never be caught. This is just the one that got caught. I'm not saying all refs are on the take but there could certainly be more. Just look at the expression on the players faces that were interviewed. Not one of them looked surprised. The leagues got major damage control to do and the amusing part is it's not due to black kids wearing doo rags, baggy jeans and making rap videos.

IcEWaTEr123
Jul 24, 2007, 01:37
this is real bad for the NBA. People watching NBA games next season wont be looking at it the same any more thinking about this scandal. This is gonna be a big problem for the NBA for a long time

jimkcchief88
Jul 24, 2007, 07:48
This ref also led the league in handing out techinical fouls including slapping all those tech's on Rasheed Wallace. So now we know how it goes in the NBA. If the game is not going the way the bookmakers want it to go, just start handing out techinical fouls, preferably to black players. Not even Tim Duncan was immune from this. Shame.

ShairanXIII
Jul 24, 2007, 15:33
this investigation was over the last 2 seasons... so we can't stretch our theories that far back... i don't know NBA refs personally, so i wouldn't be surprised if there are more than one... i also wouldn't be surprised if this guy is the only one... he's testifying... so we'll find out soon enough...

GiantKnicksFan... you're seriously saying there is no superstar treatment in any other sport? Offensive players get the benefit of doubt in many close situations in bball and in football... i'm not a baseball fan so i can't really comment on that... but yeah... i stand by my statement... there are a lot of ****ty refs out there...

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7045572

^^talks about how this guy ref'd the Pho/SA series... punishment for this guy should be severe (from the NBA) if it turns out that he rigged the western finals (not that the Spurs wouldn't win anyway)... which led to the lowest rated finals in NBA HISTORY...

this is nuts but... they showed clips of him arguing with JVG during the Hou/Uta series today on NY1... maybe JVG wasn't crazy after all... i can't remember who said this... but we as FANS... can't let this ruin the league... let's watch... support and enjoy the game that we've been watching since our youth...

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 24, 2007, 17:52
this investigation was over the last 2 seasons... so we can't stretch our theories that far back... i don't know NBA refs personally, so i wouldn't be surprised if there are more than one... i also wouldn't be surprised if this guy is the only one... he's testifying... so we'll find out soon enough...

GiantKnicksFan... you're seriously saying there is no superstar treatment in any other sport? Offensive players get the benefit of doubt in many close situations in bball and in football... i'm not a baseball fan so i can't really comment on that... but yeah... i stand by my statement... there are a lot of ****ty refs out there...

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7045572

^^talks about how this guy ref'd the Pho/SA series... punishment for this guy should be severe (from the NBA) if it turns out that he rigged the western finals (not that the Spurs wouldn't win anyway)... which led to the lowest rated finals in NBA HISTORY...

this is nuts but... they showed clips of him arguing with JVG during the Hou/Uta series today on NY1... maybe JVG wasn't crazy after all... i can't remember who said this... but we as FANS... can't let this ruin the league... let's watch... support and enjoy the game that we've been watching since our youth...

I do believe that the NBA is a superstar dependent league and does give preferential treatment to superstars.
For example, Peyton Manning is one of the biggest stars in the NFL, i dont see how the refs can give any special treatment to him.
Plus, as its been said by many analysts and "experts" the NBA is the only league where a ref can give defense-less shots to reward certain players for being fouled.
Even in hockey or in soccer, a penalty shot is still defended.
The NBA refs have more power than any other sport. Umpires dont throw out players in baseball unless they argue or become demonstative. All a NBA has to do is call a couple cheap calls and the player sits, giving an advantage to the other team.
Only hockey puts players out the game for a couple mins, but i cant say much about hockey becuase i only watch Rangers games and havent noticed any special or odd calls. Maybe someone who knows more bout hockey might be able to chime in...

ShairanXIII
Jul 24, 2007, 20:19
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7042010

turns out this cat didn't work too many games and gave us one back in February... the middle part talks about the Heat/Knicks game...

GiantKnicksFan I agree that NBA refs have the most potential to do it... but using QBs as our example... a ref might call roughing the passer on a play... which penalizes teams several yards... they might call PI for incidental contact... another yard penalty... the could call forward progress on a throw instead of a fumble... i think nfl refs usually get it right... without doubt...

but they do give special treatment to players... tom brady... payton manning... certain wideouts... some corners... depending on who you play... offenses or defenses get certain breaks... penalties move the offending team further from the goal line (or give the receiver extra downs/yards)... there is a lot of wiggle room... people are just less critical of the nfl than the nba... besides... [unsubstantiated conspiracy theory]for the millions wagered nfl games... more so than nba games... and since nfl refs are part time... i think if there was a probe... you'd find many more guilty nfl refs...[/unsubstantiated conspiracy theory]

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 25, 2007, 06:52
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7042010

turns out this cat didn't work too many games and gave us one back in February... the middle part talks about the Heat/Knicks game...

GiantKnicksFan I agree that NBA refs have the most potential to do it... but using QBs as our example... a ref might call roughing the passer on a play... which penalizes teams several yards... they might call PI for incidental contact... another yard penalty... the could call forward progress on a throw instead of a fumble... i think nfl refs usually get it right... without doubt...

but they do give special treatment to players... tom brady... payton manning... certain wideouts... some corners... depending on who you play... offenses or defenses get certain breaks... penalties move the offending team further from the goal line (or give the receiver extra downs/yards)... there is a lot of wiggle room... people are just less critical of the nfl than the nba... besides... [unsubstantiated conspiracy theory]for the millions wagered nfl games... more so than nba games... and since nfl refs are part time... i think if there was a probe... you'd find many more guilty nfl refs...[/unsubstantiated conspiracy theory]

I dont think there is any superstar treatment in the NFL becuase the its 11 vs 11. Not 5v5, where one player in the NBA is worth more than Peyton Manning, in football manning is only as good as his other 10 teamates, if his line sux, hes not gonna have time to throw.
In the NBA, 1 player can take ur team to the finals (LBJ) or even just take u to the playoffs (kobe). In the NFL, some of the best players dont get to the playoffs, so the refs giving preferential treatment to those players wont make the team better.
2. NFL uses helmuts and isnt a superstar driven sport the way the NBA is. Besides the QB and RB it is easy not to know who is who on the field UNLESS u know the specific numbers on their jerseys.
And for sake of arguement, if the ref does give a flag to a particular TEAM, (beucase it wont be for the player, that doesnt make sense in the NFL) points arent given automatically, they still have to score on their own and that isnt easy. In the NBA, one whistle gives 2 easy points to whoever the ref wants.
Also, those questionable calls in the NFL and the MLB (ill explain later) are given to whoever commits them not becuase they are superstar players, for example, in the NFL Champ Bailey does get called for pass interference even tho he is clearly the best CB in the league. T.O. by touchdowns was the best WR in the league but also led the league in drops. There isnt anything that shows TO gettin any special treatement from the refs becuase a pass interference flag doesnt count towards the WRs total yards or receptions, it goes for the team. And almost every team has a superstar player.
Back to the MLB thing, i watch alot of baseball and Clemens doesnt get the outside corner more than lets say a rookie that just came up and is having a phenomenal season. umpires work for having a consistant strikezone, not one that changes becuase of who the batter or the pitcher is. And they are subject to question because of the system called Questec that tracks the right or wrong called or non called strikes in a game.

ShairanXIII
Jul 25, 2007, 14:32
you're right about the NBA being more superstar driven... shyte they play in tank tops and shorts... they're more human... BUT... "some of" the best basketball players don't make the playoffs either Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, etc... and that one player taking you to the finals thing is overrated since the Cavs played two injury plagued teams (WAS and NJ) and the Pistons they shoulda beaten last year... so just like football, you depend on the talent around you, but to a lesser degree...

NBA teams don't automatically get 2 points... they get another chance to earn the 2 points they would have earned IF their shot went in... if it was that simple... NYK woulda won more than 33 games... moving closer to the endzone achieves the same purpose, since you are given an opportunity to EARN the yards (or points) you would if there was no penalty...

The refs have more opportunity to affect the score because scoring happens more quickly in bball (90 ppg v. 21 ppg) and each team has more possessions...

If you and I know who the superstars are despite their helmets and pads... you can bet the refs who are paid to oversee the games do as well... i see bias in both sports... case in point...

Shaq was allowed to lower his shoulder and charge into most defenders throughout his career... but he still got charging calls despite being the best Center in the league... there were even times when MJ would get fouled and no whistle would blow... despite him being the GOAT...

superstar treatment betters the entire team's chances... not just the superstar player... i don't think the refs do it to get a stat boost... but they know the fans want to see certain players... and they try to keep them on the court for longer... same as football... IMO...

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 25, 2007, 14:47
you're right about the NBA being more superstar driven... shyte they play in tank tops and shorts... they're more human... BUT... "some of" the best basketball players don't make the playoffs either Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, etc... and that one player taking you to the finals thing is overrated since the Cavs played two injury plagued teams (WAS and NJ) and the Pistons they shoulda beaten last year... so just like football, you depend on the talent around you, but to a lesser degree...

NBA teams don't automatically get 2 points... they get another chance to earn the 2 points they would have earned IF their shot went in... if it was that simple... NYK woulda won more than 33 games... moving closer to the endzone achieves the same purpose, since you are given an opportunity to EARN the yards (or points) you would if there was no penalty...

The refs have more opportunity to affect the score because scoring happens more quickly in bball (90 ppg v. 21 ppg) and each team has more possessions...

If you and I know who the superstars are despite their helmets and pads... you can bet the refs who are paid to oversee the games do as well... i see bias in both sports... case in point...

Shaq was allowed to lower his shoulder and charge into most defenders throughout his career... but he still got charging calls despite being the best Center in the league... there were even times when MJ would get fouled and no whistle would blow... despite him being the GOAT...

superstar treatment betters the entire team's chances... not just the superstar player... i don't think the refs do it to get a stat boost... but they know the fans want to see certain players... and they try to keep them on the court for longer... same as football... IMO...

Lol. U cant use MJ as a basis for arguement when stating a case AGAINST super star treatment. Jordon invented it. He fathered it. It didnt exist b4 Jordon. It was about the team.
BUT the league made more money than it ever imagined riding the back of Michael Jefferson Jordan. Do u really think the NBA was never a "little nice" to MJ? When he became a superstar by 1990, when he alone challenged DET, BOST, etc he went 9 full seasons without fouling out. No one with the minutes average that he has comes even close. Thats all i need to see.

And about auto giving 2 pts, i meant 2 DEFENSE-LESS attempts. Which good teams capitilize over bad teams.

brooklyn_baller
Jul 25, 2007, 16:14
Did he obviously think that he wasn't going to get caught?

ShairanXIII
Jul 26, 2007, 22:49
Lol. U cant use MJ as a basis for arguement when stating a case AGAINST super star treatment. Jordon invented it. He fathered it. It didnt exist b4 Jordon. It was about the team.
BUT the league made more money than it ever imagined riding the back of Michael Jefferson Jordan. Do u really think the NBA was never a "little nice" to MJ? When he became a superstar by 1990, when he alone challenged DET, BOST, etc he went 9 full seasons without fouling out. No one with the minutes average that he has comes even close. Thats all i need to see.

And about auto giving 2 pts, i meant 2 DEFENSE-LESS attempts. Which good teams capitilize over bad teams.

I wasn't using him as an example against superstar treatment... i was comparing the stars of the nba to the stars of the nfl who you said didn't get special treatment... specifically... you said champ bailey gets called for PI and that TO drops passes... you were arguing that the best NFL superstars didn't get calls... I say they do get calls... but even superstars get penalized every-so-often... so you'll see champ get a flag... or TO not get one... you never saw a ref make a call against MJ? cmon...

MJ never fouled out because he was an excellent defender... 9 first team all nba honors... i hated the guy as a player... but give respect where respect is due...

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 27, 2007, 17:17
I wasn't using him as an example against superstar treatment... i was comparing the stars of the nba to the stars of the nfl who you said didn't get special treatment... specifically... you said champ bailey gets called for PI and that TO drops passes... you were arguing that the best NFL superstars didn't get calls... I say they do get calls... but even superstars get penalized every-so-often... so you'll see champ get a flag... or TO not get one... you never saw a ref make a call against MJ? cmon...

MJ never fouled out because he was an excellent defender... 9 first team all nba honors... i hated the guy as a player... but give respect where respect is due...

Listen i understand that MJ is the GOAT. But lets be serious. Never fouled out in 9 FULL NBA SEASONS. Thats a lot of games, some players who arent foul prone get in foul trouble by mistake! plus opposing players have said that MJ gets to do what he wants in at the defensive end. Think of what they let bruce bowen get away with by simply being a good defender. Imagine the best player ever. Please. There is no ref on this earth who has the balls to put MJ in foul trouble. MJ vs Utah? Everyone on this earth knows that was the biggest push off ever. Refs? Swallow that whistle for the best player ever.

KnicksFan4Realz
Jul 27, 2007, 17:40
MJ the GOAT? Damn that really smacks in the face of The Big-O, Dr.J, and the Iceman...and no one can forget Bill Russell the true GOAT.

GiantsKnickFan
Jul 27, 2007, 23:18
MJ the GOAT? Damn that really smacks in the face of The Big-O, Dr.J, and the Iceman...and no one can forget Bill Russell the true GOAT.

In my opinion MJ can do whatever he wanted to whoever he wanted. All those legends are great, but i dont think none of them would be able to out duel MJ.

ShairanXIII
Jul 28, 2007, 19:50
MJ the GOAT? Damn that really smacks in the face of The Big-O, Dr.J, and the Iceman...and no one can forget Bill Russell the true GOAT.

Big O was a better all around player... rebounding, scoring and passing than Jordan... But 23 was the ultimate competitor, a better defender and could make all his teammates better... he also improved something every off season...

Dr. J came to the nba after a long ABA career... Dr. J is one of my all time faves... but c'mon... no comparing his nba career to MJ...

Russell has 11 chips... so he has that on MJ... but he also played against 8 other teams so those title stats are a little skewed IMO... Russell is the best center of all time... Jordan is the GOAT... 6 chips... unmatched desire and will... ****... he won with Will Purdue and Luc Longley playing 5...

As a lifelong Knick fan... I always hated 23 as a player... but you gotta give respect where respect is due...

metrocard
Jul 29, 2007, 11:20
MJ the GOAT? Damn that really smacks in the face of The Big-O, Dr.J, and the Iceman...and no one can forget Bill Russell the true GOAT.

A smack to the face? Those dudes played in a completely different area, where your average player was very slow and unathletic compared to the Jordan era. Who the hell has seen Bill Russel play consistantly? We only saw highlights of this dude, and everyone looks great in highlights, even Channing Frye. Russel is definately part of the top 5 of all time, but Jordan is no question number 1. He was the COMPLETE player.

KnicksFan4Realz
Jul 29, 2007, 17:28
I'd give Jordan top 10 status but never the GOAT...

1.) Oscar Robertson
2.) Julius Erv
3.) George Gervin
4.) David Thompson
5.) Pete Maravich
6.) Alex English
7.) Bill Russell

There are just too many players that come before Jordan...

metrocard
Jul 30, 2007, 00:08
I'd give Jordan top 10 status but never the GOAT...

1.) Oscar Robertson
2.) Julius Erv
3.) George Gervin
4.) David Thompson
5.) Pete Maravich
6.) Alex English
7.) Bill Russell

There are just too many players that come before Jordan...

I take a **** on this post.

Everyone read what I bold You see that? His agrument is that they came before Jordan. No one here argued that. Since he has no point to make and wants to be random, yet again he's throwing the fact these ATGs came before Jordan. So...? Jordan is still better than them, and no one had a bigger impact in NBA history than Micheal Jordan, on the basketball court, commercial, and talent wise. Micheal Jordan is the highest standard of success to every young basketball player. No one is taking MJ's 1 spot.