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Italian Stallion
Mar 22, 2009, 09:24
IMO....

Lee and Robinson are wildly overrated right now because of the pace of the Knicks offensive system and the fact that many people don’t fully appreciate that neither can play any defense at all. IMO, they would make excellent trade bait right now while their value is high.

People love Lee because of his rebounding.

Did anyone notice that with Lee out, a seemingly weak rebounder like Chandler was able to get 12 rebounds?

Several other Knicks also helped pick up the slack. Without their best rebounder, the Knicks outrebounded the Magic by 9.

Rebounding is obviously a critical part of winning, but in my opinion it’s probably the most fungible skill in all of basketball. Virtually every player on a team can up his rebounding productivity and make up most of the difference if the best rebounder goes down unless he's freakishly good rebounder like Rodman.

Rebounding is overvalued on an “individual basis” despite being extremely important on a “team basis”.

Walsh did a great job to get rid of some overrated players with bad contracts. Let’s just hope he doesn’t screw it up by resigning two overrated current players to very big contracts. Neither Lee or Robinson is worth a dime over 5-6 million. They would be role players coming off the bench on any really good team.

LJ4ptplay
Mar 22, 2009, 10:33
The problem with that is we can't trade them now. They are free agents. We will have to do a sign and trade. The time to trade them was before this year's trade deadline.

Personally, I would like to keep them both. I think both of them can be valuable pieces for a championship team. A championship team needs a strong bench.

But, dumping salary (i.e. Jeffries and Curry) for 2010 is more important and the only way we can dump salary will be to use Nate and Lee as trade bait. It's a tough choice an I understand your argument.

F**k, that Curry trade was the worst trade in franchise history. All the draft picks we lost and now he's gonna screw us out of rebuilding.

Knicks07
Mar 22, 2009, 10:36
I dont think there overated, but the numbers they put up, their trade value is high and we can get a center that can actually play defense

pat
Mar 22, 2009, 11:19
IMO....
Rebounding is overvalued on an “individual basis” despite being extremely important on a “team basis”.

So why is it then that Eddy Curry sucks at rebounding? Rebounding is all about attitude and you can't teach that. This is the main reason why so many GMs are after him. So I'd prefer him to stay. He won't become a superstar in this league but it would be a shame to find out that he could have been that last important part of the puzzle once he is gone.

quiggle
Mar 22, 2009, 11:53
trade Chandler, lots of inflated expectations with him.

NicksKnicks
Mar 22, 2009, 12:04
trade Chandler, lots of inflated expectations with him.

hes quietly turning into a solid player.

quiggle
Mar 22, 2009, 12:34
hes quietly turning into a solid player.

he fades away too often, especially in crucial moments.

Red
Mar 22, 2009, 13:07
Trade D'Antoni

Giants89FLY
Mar 22, 2009, 13:26
Trade Everyone

TunerAddict
Mar 22, 2009, 13:40
Trade Lee and Nate for draft picks...Lets rebuild with young talent that can learn the system right away and not have to be retrained like all of our players who went from years and years of half court offense to Dantoni's system.

the portable man
Mar 22, 2009, 16:51
nate is too good to be traded, not many other guards in the league can get to the paint liike him and his D isnt that bad just not great, with better team defense he'd be fine

now Lee and chandler are replaceable considering lee's only real skill is rebounding, his low post game rarely produces a basket when going 1 on 1, and he has 0 D.....chandler shoots a low % for a starting forward, maybe even worse than rudy gay...he ONLY has a good game when he gets baskets inside, otherwise his shot is highly unreliable, but not as bad as hughes...on top of all this he has subpar handling and shot-creation abilities....and it would be hard to say if he can get better in all those areas when he doesnt look natural on the court, just some big dude with a shot form and can play D...like ive said before he seems clumsy on offense and gets his pts off fastbreak situations and open shots

duhon should also be included in trade, why not? how hard can it be to teach 3 other pro's dantoni's playbook

with lee, chandler, duhon im sure we can get a real C and a decent backup pg for nate, maybe someone like jarret jack

then we'd have harrington doing his thing at PF and a true big man down low

NY_Swagger
Mar 22, 2009, 19:29
duhon should also be included in trade, why not? how hard can it be to teach 3 other pro's dantoni's playbook



co-sign...his contract should be easy to move... maybe we could use him to move up in the draft and get rubio.

TunerAddict
Mar 22, 2009, 19:36
nate is too good to be traded, not many other guards in the league can get to the paint liike him and his D isnt that bad just not great, with better team defense he'd be fine



This makes you lose all credibility.

LeFlume
Mar 22, 2009, 19:44
trade Chandler, lots of inflated expectations with him.

Are you nuts? Trade him for what? He is young and he's not making more than 1.2M next year, we have a team option 2010 at 2.1M, He is the only player we cant afford to move, besides the dude is starting to get a grip and he have a bright future in NYC. Reminds me of Jalen Rose with a better D.

Paul1355
Mar 22, 2009, 20:49
IMO....

Lee and Robinson are wildly overrated right now because of the pace of the Knicks offensive system and the fact that many people don’t fully appreciate that neither can play any defense at all. IMO, they would make excellent trade bait right now while their value is high.

People love Lee because of his rebounding.

Did anyone notice that with Lee out, a seemingly weak rebounder like Chandler was able to get 12 rebounds?

Several other Knicks also helped pick up the slack. Without their best rebounder, the Knicks outrebounded the Magic by 9.

Rebounding is obviously a critical part of winning, but in my opinion it’s probably the most fungible skill in all of basketball. Virtually every player on a team can up his rebounding productivity and make up most of the difference if the best rebounder goes down unless he's freakishly good rebounder like Rodman.

Rebounding is overvalued on an “individual basis” despite being extremely important on a “team basis”.

Walsh did a great job to get rid of some overrated players with bad contracts. Let’s just hope he doesn’t screw it up by resigning two overrated current players to very big contracts. Neither Lee or Robinson is worth a dime over 5-6 million. They would be role players coming off the bench on any really good team.

If overrated means being the LEAGUE LEADER in doubles passing Dwight Howard whos one of the best centers in the NBA, then yea Lee is a good ovverrated player.

Lee has one problem....Defense...Lee's defense makes me want to jump in his body and start putting my hands up and going for blocks which he NEVER does. It's frustrating as a fan to watch a guy like Lee, who is a very aggressive player on offense and off the boards to not be aggressive what so ever on defense. It's like Lee is a uncompleted puzzle.

He is aggressive everywhere except defense and it is killing us. Lee should only be traded for a big defensive upgrade.

Now onto Nate...a streak player that can be a head case. Great potential and is one of the few guys that can carry this team to a win single handedly. Any guy with that ability should stay with us. It seems like every fan favorite on this team gets traded...keep Nate for his hustle, ridiculous athleticism and ability to score in crunch time. He is great at driving the ball and has a clutch outside shot....he is still one of the most under rated players in basketball. To say that Nate Robinson is over rated is ridiculous. No one knew this guy outside of NY until the slam dunk contest.

Crazy⑧s
Mar 22, 2009, 22:14
The problem with that is we can't trade them now. They are free agents. We will have to do a sign and trade. The time to trade them was before this year's trade deadline.

Personally, I would like to keep them both. I think both of them can be valuable pieces for a championship team. A championship team needs a strong bench.

But, dumping salary (i.e. Jeffries and Curry) for 2010 is more important and the only way we can dump salary will be to use Nate and Lee as trade bait. It's a tough choice an I understand your argument.

F**k, that Curry trade was the worst trade in franchise history. All the draft picks we lost and now he's gonna screw us out of rebuilding.
It sure did!!! It'll never be undone or solved I bet.

Also, Sign & Trade seems so------------ questionable!

I guess that means at least that if Donnie were to attempt to head hunt a particular player, then he could match the contracts specifically to the liking of both teams. Makes sense. Gives some cap & roster leverage as well.

I agree that both N8 & Lee are over-rated. Not by a lot. They've both shown what they can do this year. They've both also shown what they can't. Play D in both cases. Lee inparticular.

N8's made some noise since the ASG & that's great news for both him individually and for the team.

-His trade value's up.
-His ability to run the point competently has finally shone through.
-Duhon's a retarded baboon.
-His games blossomed late so Donnie has him in a position where if he were to ask for too much, his recent inconsistencies & previous frustrations would be a good reason to talk him down.

I know there are people who'll hate this call, but it still seems like a no brainer to me. If we were to sign Lee & N8 at the end of this year, this is what I'd like to see unfold:

Lee: 5 years @ approx $8.4m/season

N8: Either 4 or 5 years @ approx $7 - 7.5m/season

I think either of them given the hurt of the recession couldn't cringe at those offers.

Then, in a trade with Toronto acquire Chris Bosh & Jason Kappono

<!-- begin left column --> <!-- begin player --> http://a.espncdn.com/i/headshots/nba/players/65/1977.jpg <!-- begin playerStatCont --> Chris Bosh #4 PF


<!-- comp --> <table class="tablehead statCont" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="gamehead"><td colspan="4">2008-09 STATS</td></tr> <tr class="colhead playerStatSub"><td>PPG</td><td>RPG</td><td>BPG</td></tr> <tr class="oddrow playerStats"><td>22.8</td><td>9.5</td><td>0.9</td></tr></tbody></table>
08/09 $14,410,581 - 09/10 $15,779,912 - 10/11 $17,149,243

<!-- begin left column --> <!-- begin player --> http://a.espncdn.com/i/headshots/nba/players/65/2010.jpg <!-- begin playerStatCont --> Jason Kapono #24 SG
<!-- comp -->

<table class="tablehead statCont" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="gamehead"><td colspan="4">2008-09 STATS</td></tr> <tr class="colhead playerStatSub"><td>PPG</td><td>APG</td><td>3P&#37;</td></tr> <tr class="oddrow playerStats"><td>8.1</td><td>1.5</td><td>.422</td></tr></tbody></table>
$5m for 2 years

For

<!-- begin left column --> <!-- begin player --> http://a.espncdn.com/i/headshots/nba/players/65/2772.jpg <!-- begin playerStatCont --> David Lee #42 PF
<!-- comp -->

<table class="tablehead statCont" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="gamehead"><td colspan="4">2008-09 STATS</td></tr> <tr class="colhead playerStatSub"><td>PPG</td><td>RPG</td><td>BPG</td></tr> <tr class="oddrow playerStats"><td>16.1</td><td>11.9</td><td>0.3</td></tr></tbody></table>
<!-- begin left column --> <!-- begin player --> <!-- begin playerStatCont --> <!-- begin left column --> <!-- begin player --> http://a.espncdn.com/i/headshots/nba/players/65/308.jpg <!-- begin playerStatCont --> <table class="tablehead statCont" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="oddrow playerStats"></tr><tr class="gamehead"><td colspan="4">2008-09 STATS</td></tr><tr class="colhead playerStatSub"><td>PPG</td><td>RPG</td><td>BPG</td></tr><tr class="oddrow playerStats"><td>20</td><td>6.3</td><td>0.3
</td></tr></tbody></table> <!-- comp -->Al Harrington #7 SF-PF

It works out with the Lee contract I put forth & Harrington is a tempter because of his contract & they don't really have a player of his likes that can play the 3.

The Raps would have a 5 of:

Calderon
Who cares
Marion
Lee
Bargnani

And Harrington as the 6th man?

It's been stated officially that Bosh is out of Toronto this off season. He's frustrated with management, border issues & Mitchell's firing.

Seriously, let's sign this guy!!! He's in a rut yes, but **** he's Chris Bosh & under the reigns of Mike D, we would all see how high Mike D's inflated stats can inflate.
Before he receives an offer from anyone else, I suggest we make our bid.

Knicks 5 & back ups:

N8 - Duhon
Hughes - Kappono - Nichols
Willy C - Gallo - Q Rich
Bosh - Jeffries - Ewing Jr
Wilcox - Samb - Maybe even Fats The Gay will make an appearance.

And it's not like that's permanent either. Additional trades can be made. It's better than the current 5 imo & leaves a lot more room to grow with a seriously solid player/olympian/all star at the helm & N8 taking on 2nd fiddle.

Hughes, Duhon, Wilcox are all expiring contracts leaving options for the future open, & as always the contracts of Q Bitch, Jeffries & Poo Fun Curry are killing us. I can't see them being traded either. It's beyond me. Nichols & Samb are expendables. Sign Ewing.

Don't be too fooled by the reduced cap either. Dolan fears not the cap nor ever has!

Bosh>>>>>>>> Harrington + Lee......Easy

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/chris-bosh-all-star.jpg


<table class="tablehead statCont" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="gamehead"><td colspan="4">
</td></tr> <tr class="colhead playerStatSub"><td>
</td><td>
</td><td>
</td></tr> <tr class="oddrow playerStats"><td>
</td><td>
</td><td>
</td></tr></tbody></table>

StreetDreams21
Mar 22, 2009, 22:44
Sign & Trade seems so------------ questionable!

I guess that means at least that if Donnie were to attempt to head hunt a particular player, then he could match the contracts specifically to the liking of both teams. Makes sense. Gives some cap & roster leverage as well.

I agree that both N8 & Lee are over-rated. Not by a lot. They've both shown what they can do this year. They've both also shown what they can't. Play D in both cases. Lee inparticular.

N8's made some noise since the ASG & that's great news for both him individually and for the team.

-His trade value's up.
-His ability to run the point competently has finally shone through.
-Duhon's a retarded baboon.
-His games blossomed late so Donnie has him in a position where if he were to ask for too much, his recent inconsistencies & previous frustrations would be a good reason to talk him down.

I know there are people who'll hate this call, but it still seems like a no brainer to me. If we were to sign Lee & N8 at the end of this year, this is what I'd like to see unfold:

Lee: 5 years @ approx $8.4m/season

N8: Either 4 or 5 years @ approx $7 - 7.5m/season

I think either of them given the hurt of the recession couldn't cringe at those offers.

Then, in a trade with Toronto acquire Chris Bosh & Jason Kappono

<!-- begin left column --><!-- begin player -->http://a.espncdn.com/i/headshots/nba/players/65/1977.jpg <!-- begin playerStatCont -->Chris Bosh #4 PF


<!-- comp --><TABLE class="tablehead statCont" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2><TBODY><TR class=gamehead><TD colSpan=4>2008-09 STATS</TD></TR><TR class="colhead playerStatSub"><TD>PPG</TD><TD>RPG</TD><TD>BPG</TD></TR><TR class="oddrow playerStats"><TD>22.8</TD><TD>9.5</TD><TD>0.9</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
08/09 - 09/10 - 10/11 Salary


<!-- begin left column --><!-- begin player -->http://a.espncdn.com/i/headshots/nba/players/65/2010.jpg <!-- begin playerStatCont -->Jason Kapono #24 SG
<!-- comp -->

<TABLE class="tablehead statCont" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2><TBODY><TR class=gamehead><TD colSpan=4>2008-09 STATS</TD></TR><TR class="colhead playerStatSub"><TD>PPG</TD><TD>APG</TD><TD>3P%</TD></TR><TR class="oddrow playerStats"><TD>8.1</TD><TD>1.5</TD><TD>.422</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
$5m for 2 years

For

<!-- begin left column --><!-- begin player -->http://a.espncdn.com/i/headshots/nba/players/65/2772.jpg <!-- begin playerStatCont -->David Lee #42 PF
<!-- comp -->

<TABLE class="tablehead statCont" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2><TBODY><TR class=gamehead><TD colSpan=4>2008-09 STATS</TD></TR><TR class="colhead playerStatSub"><TD>PPG</TD><TD>RPG</TD><TD>BPG</TD></TR><TR class="oddrow playerStats"><TD>16.1</TD><TD>11.9</TD><TD>0.3</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- begin left column --><!-- begin player --><!-- begin playerStatCont --><!-- begin left column --><!-- begin player -->http://a.espncdn.com/i/headshots/nba/players/65/308.jpg <!-- begin playerStatCont --><TABLE class="tablehead statCont" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2><TBODY><TR class="oddrow playerStats"></TR><TR class=gamehead><TD colSpan=4>2008-09 STATS</TD></TR><TR class="colhead playerStatSub"><TD>PPG</TD><TD>RPG</TD><TD>BPG</TD></TR><TR class="oddrow playerStats"><TD>20</TD><TD>6.3</TD><TD>0.3

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- comp -->Al Harrington #7 SF-PF

It works out with the Lee contract I put forth & Harrington is a tempter because of his contract & they don't really have a player of his likes that can play the 3.

The Raps would have a 5 of:

Calderon
Who cares
Marion
Lee
Bargnani

And Harrington as the 6th man?

It's been stated officially that Bosh is out of Toronto this off season. He's frustrated with management, border issues & Mitchell's firing.

Seriously, let's sign this guy!!! He's in a rut yes, but **** he's Chris Bosh & under the reigns of Mike D, we would all see how high Mike D's inflated stats can inflate.
Before he receives an offer from anyone else, I suggest we make our bid.

Knicks 5 & back ups:

N8 - Duhon
Hughes - Kappono - Nichols
Willy C - Gallo - Q Rich
Bosh - Jeffries
Wilcox - Samb - Maybe even Fats The Gay will make an appearance.

And it's not like that's permanent either. Additional trades can be made. It's better than the current 5 imo & leaves a lot more room to grow with a seriously solid player/olympian/all star at the helm.

Hughes, Duhon, Wilcox & Samb are all expiring contracts leaving options for the future open, & as always the contracts of Q Bitch, Jeffries & Poo Fun Curry are killing us. I can't see them being traded either. It's beyond me.

Don't be too fooled by the reduced cap either. Dolan fears not the cap nor ever has!

Bosh>>>>>>>> Harrington + Lee......Easy

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/chris-bosh-all-star.jpg


<TABLE class="tablehead statCont" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2><TBODY><TR class=gamehead><TD colSpan=4>

</TD></TR><TR class="colhead playerStatSub"><TD>

</TD><TD>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR><TR class="oddrow playerStats"><TD>

</TD><TD>

</TD><TD>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

i wouldnt be totally against this, but why would we get Bosh now and have him walk come 2010? if we wait till 2010, and sign him, we'd have him locked up, dontcha think?

Crazy⑧s
Mar 22, 2009, 22:57
With Mike D calling the shots, Bosh wouldn't walk. As an Olympian, he'll attract others as well. All those boys are tight. We sign him now, we lock him up post 2010.

This has to happen. Toronto are ****ed & they know it. The Canadian dollar is screwed & even with Bosh they can't win. We can. We rock.

Harrington sucks.

Lee doesn't

Bosh kicks a$$

dre48ny
Mar 22, 2009, 23:04
I like both players. If they didn't want to re-sign N8, why didn't they pull the trigger when Sacramento knocked on the door. We could've dumped Jefferies salary.

WVKnickfan
Mar 22, 2009, 23:27
N8's made some noise since the ASG & that's great news for both him individually and for the team.

Thats just it!! Nate did'nt start putting up those kind of numbers until after the All star game which I applaud him for.The problem that I have with this thow is alot of posters on here talking up Nate game like he has done that his whole career which is not true.I like Nate and I would like to see him stay but if I had to choose between Lee and Nate then its a land slide to keep Lee b/c he is worth so much more for the Knicks.Everybody talks about Lees defense being bad and yes I agree it isn't that good.

What has Lee done every offseason?? He works hard on improving his game!! One offseason he worked hard on his foul shots and when the season started the next year he was shooting 80&#37;.Well the next offseason they told him he has to improve his jumper well he worked his ass off and done nothing but shoot jumpers and this season he greatly improved.This offseason he will work hard on his defense b/c he knows he has to and I garrentee his defense will be better b/c he works hard and he wants to win.

Again I want to keep both but if I had to trade one then Nate has to go b/c Lee brings much more to the table each and every game.Some of you always talks about Lees defense not being as good as it should be which is true but I hardly ever hear anything about Nates bad shot selection,bad defense,him losing his cool out on the court,arguing with the coach,trying to fight with the other teams players like he did again last night.


Nate is kind of a hot head sometimes and that isn't good for the Knicks team in general.Lee is nothing like that b/c he brings more to the Knicks team thats a fact. Thats why if I had to trade one then it has to be Nate and resign Lee.Now I know alot won't agree with what I wrote and I repect your opinion I just hope you can respect mine.

dave2138
Mar 22, 2009, 23:31
Can someone explain the sign and trade rule to me. Whats the catch? Why wouldn't every team resign a free agent and then trade him to the team that wants to acquire him?

When we talk about Lebron James/Dwayne Wade.. Say 1 of them decides to choose NY over Cleveland/Miami..why can't Cleveland decide to resign James to max contract then trade him to us for like 5 future 1st round picks, Gallinari, Chandler etc.

dave2138
Mar 22, 2009, 23:33
1 more question - On Hoopshype, it says Robinson and Lee both have qualifying offers for the 09/10 season. What exactly does this mean? Is there another possibility besides
signing long term deals / signing elsewhere / sign and trade?

Crazy⑧s
Mar 22, 2009, 23:39
N8's made some noise since the ASG & that's great news for both him individually and for the team.

Thats just it!! Nate did'nt start putting up those kind of numbers until after the All star game which I applaud him for.The problem that I have with this thow is alot of posters on here talking up Nate game like he has done that his whole career which is not true.I like Nate and I would like to see him stay but if I had to choose between Lee and Nate then its a land slide to keep Lee b/c he is worth so much more for the Knicks.Everybody talks about Lees defense being bad and yes I agree it isn't that good.

What has Lee done every offseason?? He works hard on improving his game!! One offseason he worked hard on his foul shots and when the season started the next year he was shooting 80&#37;.Well the next offseason they told him he has to improve his jumper well he worked his ass off and done nothing but shoot jumpers and this season he greatly improved.This offseason he will work hard on his defense b/c he knows he has to and I garrentee his defense will be better b/c he works hard and he wants to win.

Again I want to keep both but if I had to trade one then Nate has to go b/c Lee brings much more to the table each and every game.Some of you always talks about Lees defense not being as good as it should be which is true but I hardly ever hear anything about Nates bad shot selection,bad defense,him losing his cool out on the court,arguing with the coach,trying to fight with the other teams players like he did again last night.


Nate is kind of a hot head sometimes and that isn't good for the Knicks team in general.Lee is nothing like that b/c he brings more to the Knicks team thats a fact. Thats why if I had to trade one then it has to be Nate and resign Lee.Now I know alot won't agree with what I wrote and I repect your opinion I just hope you can respect mine.
I'd prefer to keep Lee as well dude. Sadly, we'll be trading big for big. Considering the drought of quality bigs in the NBA and our dire need for an inside presence on D we can't afford to lose Lee and must pursue a sign & trade.

We're currently stacked in positions 1 through 3 and we'll have to "spend money to make money" so to speak. I just really hope that it's a worthwhile move if we do end up losing Lee. Hence the Bosh for Lee & Harrington trade.

Bosh's D isn't awesome, but it's better than Lee's & boards will become available in Lee's absence for Chandler & Wilcox or a yet to be signed new addition for the upcoming season.

And you're right. Nate has never really played great ball until late. He's had big numbers, but they've been mired in a lack of consistency. Love to see him keep scoring playing well. Some D would be nice as well.

bfab99
Mar 22, 2009, 23:45
new here.

Man, i want us to keep both Lee and Nate. Hopefully Donnie Walsh finds a way to make it happen.

Arod2k9
Mar 23, 2009, 00:24
Can someone explain the sign and trade rule to me. Whats the catch? Why wouldn't every team resign a free agent and then trade him to the team that wants to acquire him?

When we talk about Lebron James/Dwayne Wade.. Say 1 of them decides to choose NY over Cleveland/Miami..why can't Cleveland decide to resign James to max contract then trade him to us for like 5 future 1st round picks, Gallinari, Chandler etc.
A sign-and-trade agreement is a type of contract allowed in the NBA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_Association)collective bargaining agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining_agreement), wherein one team signs a player to a contract and trades him to another team. This is typically done to allow the eventual acquiring team to obtain a free agent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_agent) player at a higher salary and/or a greater number of years than would ordinarily be permitted under the NBA salary cap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap).
The sign-and-trade helps teams to capitalize on assets that they are going to lose if they are unable to trade the player. Imagine a player, Mr X, who is planning on pursuing free agency in the coming off-season. His current team TeamA knows that at least one of the other teams will sign him. If this happens TeamA will have gotten nothing out of Mr X other than his past accomplishments. However, because TeamA is Mr X's current contract holder TeamA can offer Mr X more money per year than any other team and can sign Mr X to a longer contract. It is therefore in the economic interest of Mr X to be signed by TeamA to the more lucrative contract and be traded instead of going to free agency. It is also in the best interests of TeamA because TeamA will then get something in return for Mr X such as some draftpicks or maybe some equally good players. If they had let Mr X go to free agency they would have gotten nothing.
Sign-and-trades are considered "atomic" transactions under league rules; if the acquiring team rescinds the trade for some reason (such as a failed physical examination), then the contract signed with the initial team is also voided. In this way, such an occurrence does not result in the initial team being stuck with a player they do not want, or under terms they might find unacceptable; the player is also protected from ending up under contract with a team he may no longer wish to play for. Such an event happened in 2005, when Shareef Abdur-Rahim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareef_Abdur-Rahim) was acquired by the New Jersey Nets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_Nets) in a sign-and-trade with the Portland Trail Blazers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Trail_Blazers); the trade was subsequently cancelled by the Nets when a physical exam discovered scar tissue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scar_tissue) in Abdur-Rahim's knee. As a result of the cancellation, Abdur-Rahim once again became a free agent; his contract with Portland (who had his Bird rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap#Larry_Bird_exception)) was voided.

Oldtimer
Mar 23, 2009, 15:21
I took a look at the CBA and this is what I got out of it.

A Qualifying Offer is limited to veterans who were first round picks and is an amount for the qualifying years determined by a formula. The team must make a Qualifying Offer during the Qualifying Offer period or the player becomes an unrestricted free agent. If the Qualifying Offer is made in a timely manner, then the player is a restricted free agent, i.e., the team will have a right of first refusal, it can match another team's offer.

I do not believe that Lee or Nate are technically restricted free agents yet, but the Knicks will have to make a Qualifying Offer to each before June 30th in order to make them restricted free agents as opposed to unrestricted free agents. I know the media has referred to them as restricted free agents but I believe the media s assuming the necessary Qualifying Offers. But I might well be wrong. In any event, it is clear that Lee and Nate will be restricted free agents after June 30th. The Knicks will not let them become unrestricted free agents.

The Knicks can offer a better contract to Lee or Nate than any other team, but are not likely to give either of them anything more than another team's offer.

If the Knicks sign either, then he can be traded. The team that made the best offer might still be interested and will give something back for the player and his contract -- presumably.

KING~POETIQ
Mar 25, 2009, 19:41
i'm hearing hatred towards nate on many threads. he's the only one that excites and brings way more positives than david "couldn't even guard cripples" Lee. chandler, harrington, wilcox and jeffries would easily pick up the slack on rebounding if lee were traded.

WVKnickfan
Mar 25, 2009, 22:43
i'm hearing hatred towards nate on many threads. he's the only one that excites and brings way more positives than david "couldn't even guard cripples" Lee. chandler, harrington, wilcox and jeffries would easily pick up the slack on rebounding if lee were traded.

It looks like the only one on here with hatred in them is you.You talk about Lee like he has done nothing all season long.He has played his ass off all season long and you know he has so give the man credit.I like Nate alot b/c he does bring excitment to the game but if you are saying Lee does'nt bring that same excitment,heart and hustle everynight then sorry but I strongly dissagree with you.

Knicker23
Mar 25, 2009, 22:49
everyone on our team right now should be/can be traded if we can get a deal. gallo chandler lee robinson...i wouldn't mind keepin gallo, and chandler...but but nate and lee should be traded if we can get a good deal... i don't care how 'ny' they are, we need results and as much as the hustle, they dont do it good enough

Crazy⑧s
Mar 25, 2009, 23:11
everyone on our team right now should be/can be traded if we can get a deal. gallo chandler lee robinson...i wouldn't mind keepin gallo, and chandler...but but nate and lee should be traded if we can get a good deal... i don't care how 'ny' they are, we need results and as much as the hustle, they dont do it good enough
Co-sign there dude.

If the future is the main goal, then I wouldn't be sad to see anyone go if it'll benefit the Knicks. It'd be exciting too. A fresh start from all the crud left behind by Thomas & Layden's retarded rule. I wouldn't complain at all as long as it's done competently & cleanly.

quiggle
Mar 26, 2009, 07:18
Chandler missed what could have been the game winning shot, you like seeing more of this here or on another team?

KING~POETIQ
Mar 26, 2009, 12:26
It looks like the only one on here with hatred in them is you.You talk about Lee like he has done nothing all season long.He has played his ass off all season long and you know he has so give the man credit.I like Nate alot b/c he does bring excitment to the game but if you are saying Lee does'nt bring that same excitment,heart and hustle everynight then sorry but I strongly dissagree with you.


lee brings excitement?!?!?!?!?!?:teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth:: teeth:

his hustle is non-existent once he crosses half court to play defense.

i actually did give credit to lee in the beginning of the season when he was playing pretty good. but the one thing he hasn't done well all season is play defense. so now that he's playing garbage all around, its clear to see that his career is over.

you gotta open your eyes. lee played good in the beginning, and half way thru the season his play waned off. unlike nate, who has improved throughout the season. playing much better in the second half of this year.

lee shows that he won't improve much from here on in. he has peaked. on the other hand, sky's the limit for nate.

David got lucky that we won't make the playoffs this year, otherwise he would of been in a wheelchair by the end of the first round.

TunerAddict
Mar 26, 2009, 12:30
Whats worse, a guy that can play good defense but won't because he is lazy, or a guy that can't play D but at least tries every play?

KING~POETIQ
Mar 26, 2009, 12:41
good try tuner. maybe your question will work next time... :lol:

Akamu
Mar 26, 2009, 15:54
Every-time David Lee "tries" to play defense a baby dies. Plus he can't create his own shot, yes he does once in a blue moon but face it he can't. Pick n roll at table six, thanks.

I still favor Nate, if there is any player that comes close to looking like a star on the team it's Mr. 5'9.

JayJ44
Mar 26, 2009, 16:13
Nate>>>>Lee, IMO.

Lee is a role player. He gets garbage buckets, rebounds, hustles, etc. He's a a pretty good rebounder, but his stats are inflated since there are no other rebounders, or post presences on this team. He can't make a jumper to save his life. He worked hard on it, but he just doesn't have the ability to be a jumpshooter. Problem is, he's a huge liability on defense. Most of the time, he doesn't even try. Sometimes, rather than fouling someone when they have an easy lay up, he just puts his hands up, so he doesn't have to leave the game.

Nate has his problems too. Bad defense, little out of control sometimes. But he's shown the ability to take over games. He's a great offensive player, with his speed, athleticism, and shooting touch, he's very hard to guard. When he's your teams main scoring option, you'll have a problem. But when we get a better team, and Nate comes off the bench, he'll be a very potent weapon. Besides, his defense can improve. He has the ability, he just needs to show effort, and get experience, on the defensive end of the floor. Who knows if it will, but at least it's a possibility. Unlike Lee, where he's hit his ceiling.

Both these guys are expendable, if need be. But I would rather keep Nate. He'll probably be cheaper, and I think he brings more to the table.

WVKnickfan
Mar 26, 2009, 23:33
lee brings excitement?!?!?!?!?!?:teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth:: teeth:

his hustle is non-existent once he crosses half court to play defense.

i actually did give credit to lee in the beginning of the season when he was playing pretty good. but the one thing he hasn't done well all season is play defense. so now that he's playing garbage all around, its clear to see that his career is over.

you gotta open your eyes. lee played good in the beginning, and half way thru the season his play waned off. unlike nate, who has improved throughout the season. playing much better in the second half of this year.

lee shows that he won't improve much from here on in. he has peaked. on the other hand, sky's the limit for nate.

David got lucky that we won't make the playoffs this year, otherwise he would of been in a wheelchair by the end of the first round.

LMAO,talk about playing defense who was that rookie that ate Nate alive during that Clipper game :teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth:.Thats enought right there to show you how good of a defender Nate is.Nate did'nt start putting up those kind of numbers until after the All star game which I applaud him for.The problem that I have with this thow is alot of posters(like you) on here talking up Nate game like he has done that his whole career which is not true.I like Nate and I would like to see him stay but if I had to choose between Lee and Nate then its a land slide to keep Lee b/c he is worth so much more for the Knicks.Everybody talks about Lees defense being bad and yes I agree it isn't that good but he imo still brings more to the table than Nate.

KING~POETIQ
Mar 27, 2009, 11:22
LMAO,talk about playing defense who was that rookie that ate Nate alive during that Clipper game :teeth::teeth::teeth::teeth:.Thats enought right there to show you how good of a defender Nate is.Nate did'nt start putting up those kind of numbers until after the All star game which I applaud him for.The problem that I have with this thow is alot of posters(like you) on here talking up Nate game like he has done that his whole career which is not true.I like Nate and I would like to see him stay but if I had to choose between Lee and Nate then its a land slide to keep Lee b/c he is worth so much more for the Knicks.Everybody talks about Lees defense being bad and yes I agree it isn't that good but he imo still brings more to the table than Nate.


are you aware that nate only played 18 minutes?!? guess not. check the stats:


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=yspsctbg><TD class=ysptblhdr colSpan=8 height=18>New York </TD><TD class=ysptblhdr align=right colSpan=8 height=18></TD></TR><TR class="ysptblthbody1 yspboxscore-columnheader-row" align=right><TD class="yspdetailttl player" align=left width="17%" height=18> Starters </TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="4%"></TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="7%">Min</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="7%">FG</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="6%">3Pt</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="6%">FT</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="6%">+/-</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">Off</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">Reb</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">Ast</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">TO</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">Stl</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">BS</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">BA</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">PF</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="7%">Pts </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=player align=left> C. Duhon (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3855) </TD><TD class=player>G </TD><TD>42:37</TD><TD>4-10</TD><TD>1-4</TD><TD>1-1</TD><TD>+3 </TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>10 </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right><TD class=player align=left> Q. Richardson (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3417) </TD><TD class=player>G </TD><TD>23:18</TD><TD>4-7</TD><TD>1-3</TD><TD>0-0</TD><TD>+7 </TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>9 </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=player align=left> D. Lee (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3956) </TD><TD class=player>C </TD><TD>35:34</TD><TD>7-7</TD><TD>0-0</TD><TD>4-5</TD><TD>+3 </TD><TD>3</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>18 </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right><TD class=player align=left> W. Chandler (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4301) </TD><TD class=player>F </TD><TD>41:36</TD><TD>10-20</TD><TD>2-4</TD><TD>0-1</TD><TD>-6 </TD><TD>1</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>22 </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=player align=left> A. Harrington (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3268) </TD><TD class=player>F </TD><TD>41:15</TD><TD>13-21</TD><TD>4-8</TD><TD>8-9</TD><TD>+4 </TD><TD>1</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>38 </TD></TR><TR class="ysptblthbody1 yspboxscore-columnheader-row" align=right><TD class="yspdetailttl player" align=left width="17%" height=18> Bench </TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="4%"></TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="7%">Min</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="7%">FG</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="6%">3Pt</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="6%">FT</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="6%">+/-</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">Off</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">Reb</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">Ast</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">TO</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">Stl</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">BS</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">BA</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="5%">PF</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl width="7%">Pts </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right><TD class=player align=left> L. Hughes (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3251) </TD><TD class=player></TD><TD>28:52</TD><TD>4-10</TD><TD>3-7</TD><TD>2-2</TD><TD>-12 </TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>13 </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=player align=left> J. Jeffries (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3609) </TD><TD class=player></TD><TD>22:57</TD><TD>3-7</TD><TD>0-0</TD><TD>4-4</TD><TD>-11 </TD><TD>3</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>10 </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right><TD class=player align=left> N. Robinson (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3947)</TD><TD class=player></TD><TD>17:56</TD><TD>6-8</TD><TD>1-3</TD><TD>0-0</TD><TD>-7 </TD><TD>1</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>13 </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=player align=left> C. Wilcox (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3606) </TD><TD class=player></TD><TD>10:53</TD><TD>0-2</TD><TD>0-0</TD><TD>2-2</TD><TD>-6 </TD><TD>1</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>2 </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right><TD class=player align=left> E. Curry (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3514) </TD><TD class=player></TD><TD class=dnp align=middle colSpan=14>DNP - Coach's Decision</TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=player align=left> D. Nichols (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4330) </TD><TD class=player></TD><TD class=dnp align=middle colSpan=14>DNP - Coach's Decision</TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right><TD class=player align=left> C. Sims (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4369) </TD><TD class=player></TD><TD class=dnp align=middle colSpan=14>DNP - Coach's Decision</TD></TR><TR class=ysptblbdr3><TD colSpan=16 height=1></TD></TR><TR class=ysptblclbg5 align=right><TD class=sum align=left height=18> Totals</TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD>51-92</TD><TD>12-29</TD><TD>21-24</TD><TD></TD><TD>10</TD><TD>36</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>18</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>135 </TD></TR><TR align=right><TD class=sum align=left height=18> Percentages:</TD><TD colSpan=2> </TD><TD>.554</TD><TD>.414</TD><TD>.875</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=team-rebounds align=left colSpan=9>Team Rebounds: 4

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


so you see, it was that other bum ass bitch (duhon) who let the clippers' two rookies, gordon and taylor, score 19 and 35, respectively. yet you decide to put all the blame on nate the great even without knowing the facts. SMH

yes nate has been playing much better after the half way point, but isn't that what you would expect out of your young talent? to improve and progress? but you don't see it that way. you prefer a guy that plays good in the beginning of the season(with no defense) and progressively gets worser overall. not to mention, how his athleticism will be non-existent by next year.


DAVID LEE = CHRIS DUDLEY


face it, he's done. its time to change that david lee pic thats in your sig :lol:

the only thing that Lee brings is trade value. it would be wise for the knicks to trade lee at season's end for a defensive big man.

i'm going to be watchin' tonights game with much scrutiny. specially david lee's defense (n/h). hope your boy shuts down the opposition, wvknickfan. if not then expect a LEE APPRECIATION THREAD by me :lol:

CLYDE
Mar 27, 2009, 14:13
The knocks on Lee & Nate are correct, but you must keep things in focus.

Lee - for the 30 th. pick in draft is a very productive player, he is not LeBron, but only 1 LeBron. Walsh missed when he had a chance to sign Lee last year at about 4 mm per. Now some GM from the Suns, Celts, Jazz, or T. Blazers will offer him a ton of $ as a white guy who can play quite well. Walsh won't be able to match, so Lee may be gone for nothing in return. Too bad. But Lee is not worth 10 mm per.

Nate - Again a real find late in the draft, at 4 - 5 mm per he is worth keeping.

Bottom line IMHO:

1. Walsh, D'Toni, new system, trades, some new players, and the result may be less wins that I.T. produced.

2. Gallo I like because he seems the only one who looks like he wants to throw a chair at somebody when they lose. If he gets healthy I can see him looking LeBron in the eye and going at him with an attitude & trash talking.

3. In the draft or D-League just look for a hungry guy, i.e. Starks, probably can find a killer attitude guy for little money. A shot blocker...please.

4. Winning teams in the NBA play D, execute in crunch time, and have at least 1 player that looks someone in the eyes and says "No, not in my house" and backs it up. i.e., Wade.

My posting name is Clyde, and I loved years ago when Clyde was asked his favorite place to play, said something like, "Boston, I love hostile people screaming at me, intense pressure, I just love to shut those people up".

KBlack25
Mar 27, 2009, 14:32
If we have to keep one, I'd say it has to be David Lee. I simply don't trust Nate Robinson to be a full time PG. He dribbles too wildly, he's not a good enough passer, and he makes truly fundamental mistakes while handling the ball. What happens in 3 years when Nate is half a step slower, when Nate jumps an inch lower than he used to?

I'm not saying Lee is phenomenal but the way I see it a championship team needs a guy like David Lee. He'll get down and dirty in the key, he'll rebound well (as he's done all year) and clean up the superstar's mess. I don't see Nate Robinson being a starter, much less a starting point guard, on a championship contender. He just doesn't have the proper skill set to be a great PG, and he's way too small to play the 2. The way I look at it is look at the 1998 Yankees. They didn't have guys that would hit monstrous home runs every at bat, they had a bunch of guys that did enough, did the dirty work, got that key hit, made that key play. I'm not saying Lee should be a starting center, but on a team where there's a superstar swingman and a decent to pretty good 7-foot center (edit: accidentally wrote 8 foot, didn't mean that big), Lee can be that power forward who cleans the glass night in and night out. I feel like guys that can do what Nate can do are a dime a dozen. Sure, athletically Nate is extremely gifted, but athleticism, especially the brand of athleticism Nate has, fades a lot more quickly than a guy's work ethic to go get the rebound. I just can't picture Nate as the PG on a team that wins the title. I can picture David Lee as the big time rebounder on a team that does though.