46 million in expiring contracts

Ok, so I just read an article that said the The Knicks can still trade Cutino Mobley's contract bringing us to a total of 46 million in expiring contracts, those contracts are

Larry Hughes 13.6
Al Harrington 10
Cuttino Mobley 9.5 (and 7 of which insurance pays for)
Q Rich 9.3
Duhon 6

So actually 47 milllion in expiring contracts. Cuttino Mobley's contract is the most valuable because it makes a trade work numbers wise, but the team receiving him does only has to pay like 2 million of that salary. Now add these contracts with a player like Chandler and we can nab an A Player. We can also accompany whoever we draft this year with one of these contracts for another came changer.

So back to the point I have been making since the season ended, why wait until 2010. Right now if Donnie sticks to his 2010 plan it means letting Lee and/or Nate go or relying on Curry to come back to camp in shape and playing at a high enough level a team would take him for an expiring contract.

My plan allows for us to trade for top notch player (albeit not Lebron or D-Wade type players) while possibly keeping David or Nate if we want. New Orleans would take Cuttino Mobley's contract for Chandler in a heartbeat (no pun intended), they for save in cap long term and in actually monies this season almost the same way they would've in the deal OKC rescinded on. With the shot blocker in place we can now keep Lee.

Expiring Contracts

The Knicks expiring contracts are not worth much because their value to the other team follows only if they can give back at least equally bad expiring contracts. This usually means I will be happy to take your expiring contract if you will take one back that has a few more years on it. For example, Iverson for Billups. A great trade for Denver. Iverson's $20M is now off the books. I think Billups has 3 more years at $12M plus. Detroit now has some cap space, but a point guard, Stuckey, who is not quite there yet.

The Knicks do not want contracts extending into 2010. Tyson Chandler has a 2010 player option contract at $12.75M and he has some injury issues.

Harrington could have some value to another team, but not for his expiring contract. Mobley's contract does have value. But what could we possibly get for Hughes and his $13M plus expiring contract?

Oldtimer said:

The Knicks expiring contracts are not worth much because their value to the other team follows only if they can give back at least equally bad expiring contracts. This usually means I will be happy to take your expiring contract if you will take one back that has a few more years on it. For example, Iverson for Billups. A great trade for Denver. Iverson's $20M is now off the books. I think Billups has 3 more years at $12M plus. Detroit now has some cap space, but a point guard, Stuckey, who is not quite there yet.

The Knicks do not want contracts extending into 2010. Tyson Chandler has a 2010 player option contract at $12.75M and he has some injury issues.

Harrington could have some value to another team, but not for his expiring contract. Mobley's contract does have value. But what could we possibly get for Hughes and his $13M plus expiring contract?

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My point exactly, the Knicks need to consider abandoning the whole notion of only trading for players who's contracts end before 2010. In that case Mobley's contract has plenty of value. The 2010 FA class is fools gold and lets take advantage of teams looking to dump good players for the sake of cap, as well as those teams who are affected by the financial crisis in the country.

You mentioned Detroit as a team who dumped cap, and I think they would be willing to dump even more. Look if they traded Billups their MVP for cap reasons, no reason to think they wouldnt part with Prince. We offer them Wilson and a Harrington for Prince and make the trade for Tyson Chandler and we have just become a better defensive team overnight.

We can do Duhon and a trade exception for TJ Ford. Indiana would be motivated to do this trade off the strength of them wanting to resign Jared Jack as their PG of the future.

None of the trades Im suggesting will likely come to pass, but just imagine sitting on our hands until 2010 it resulting in nothing. So my point is lets be proactive.

I'm not saying use expiring contracts the way Isiah did, I'm saying examine if there are pieces we can fill with this process of trading expiring contracts for long term ones, instead of just hoping a superstar decides to opt out.

Only problem with this theory is why wouldn't they just keep Zach Randolph then. You can say the Clippers took advantage of the Knicks and their goal to get under the cap by 2010. I really think that a lot of teams out there do not want to take on big contracts. There will be a change in the NBA and future contracts with the salary cap diminishing. Teams will not be overpaying to get quality players on their team.

I think the Knicks will just let most or all of these expiring contracts run out. The only types of trades I can see is ones where both teams benefit from trading expiring contracts. For example, Chris Duhon -> Marcus Camby makes sense for both teams.

New New York said:

We offer them Wilson and a Harrington for Prince and make the trade for Tyson Chandler and we have just become a better defensive team overnight.

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u're crazy, i wont even trade wilson for prince straight up

dave2138 said:

Only problem with this theory is why wouldn't they just keep Zach Randolph then. You can say the Clippers took advantage of the Knicks and their goal to get under the cap by 2010. I really think that a lot of teams out there do not want to take on big contracts. There will be a change in the NBA and future contracts with the salary cap diminishing. Teams will not be overpaying to get quality players on their team.

I think the Knicks will just let most or all of these expiring contracts run out. The only types of trades I can see is ones where both teams benefit from trading expiring contracts. For example, Chris Duhon -> Marcus Camby makes sense for both teams.

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I never said The Clippers "took advantage of The Knicks", I still loved the idea of dumping both Jamal Crawford and Randolph because neither player was worth their salary to me, and were one bad injury (or in Zach's case, one bad incident) from being untradable.

Look my issue with the 2010 plan is that we are going to have to go balls out with it if we are going to do it, which means letting David Lee and Nate go for nothing or even for expiring contract because resigning them hurts our cap. Donnie claims that he has the final say in where Lee goes, and I agree to an extent; teams know around the league know The Knicks dilemma w/ Lee and can exploit the Knicks wanting to be under the cap in 2010 and come in slightly higher than the Knicks are willing to pay and he walks for nothing. All in the hopes we land a superstar in 2010, meanwhile our team gets worse and we surrender a lottery pick next year, all for the sake of landing a superstar in 2010! Lose now, win later!?:crossfingers:

Also yet again bringing up my whole point about why we didnt package Jefferies w/ Nate at the trade deadline.

Here is how next year's team should look if we do this 2010 thing

Duhon
Huges
Chandler
Harrington
Curry

Danillo
Q
Jefferies

Which means either Utah gets a lottery pick, or Dantoni is coach of the year!

Personally, I would give up the 2009/2010 season just for the chance at Lebron James. If you make trades now with Hughes, Harrington, Richardson for more talented players signed to longer contracts, you give up that chance.

Also, I think the knicks can resign Lee and Robinson and still have 20 or so mil to sign on FA. Who says that they can't trade Lee or Robinson with expiring contracts Eddie Curry or Jefferies in the 2009/2010 off season to get a more talented player with a high contract like you suggest we do now.

The biggest priority for this team I think is to make an environment here most suitable to get Lebron James to come here. Honestly, the safest thing to do is just do nothing except resign Nate and Lee, make a smart draft pick and see what happens next off season when all these bad contracts come off the books.

datruth said:

u're crazy, i wont even trade wilson for prince straight up

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I will give you two reasons why Prince is better for every reason you can give me why Chandler is better

Allow me to go SAT's on you....Prince is to Chandler as Billups is to Stuckey

dave2138 said:

Personally, I would give up the 2009/2010 season just for the chance at Lebron James. If you make trades now with Hughes, Harrington, Richardson for more talented players signed to longer contracts, you give up that chance.

Also, I think the knicks can resign Lee and Robinson and still have 20 or so mil to sign on FA. Who says that they can't trade Lee or Robinson with expiring contracts Eddie Curry or Jefferies in the 2009/2010 off season to get a more talented player with a high contract like you suggest we do now.

The biggest priority for this team I think is to make an environment here most suitable to get Lebron James to come here. Honestly, the safest thing to do is just do nothing except resign Nate and Lee, make a smart draft pick and see what happens next off season when all these bad contracts come off the books.

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20 million isnt going to cut it bro. You have to imagine that Lebron will automatically demand more than that. You mentioned building a team that seems desirable to Lebron, our core of players will be Danillo,Wilson,Lee,Nate,Curry, and Jefferies, is that really a desirable team for Lebron? Also lets say we resign Lee and Nate this offseason, will we be a playoff team next year or even a team that looks all that promising for the 2010-2011 season? Likely not, making it even harder to attract FA's. Not to mention 3 of the 4 players currently under contract in 2010 play Lebron's position.

About your point about trading Lee and Nate in 2010, consider what Donnie Walsh said about both players this season; He said sometimes a player looks good at one price and not so good at another. You sign Lee and Robinson to an extension and its like a car when you drive it off the lot, the value drops.

Honestly the safest thing to do if we are sticking to this 2010 cap plan is to not sign Lee or Robinson at all which gives us about 40 million in cap (six less than what we have in expiring contracts) to go after some players, lets say we land Lebron (for the record I dont think that is at all possible) we pay him 22 million and we have 18 million to bring in players like Nash,Camby and some role players. If we are going to sign them then we consider how much that cripples our cap situation in 2010 and may need to consider aborting the plan.

For the record it is fun going back and forth with someone and not having to trade insults. Just hoops talk by two fans!

I am not 100% on how it works, but the max contract can't be more than 20 mil. The 1st year should be less like 17,18 mil too I imagine.

Is Cleveland's core any more desirable than ours? Mo Williams and Varajao..thats all that is guaranteed to be there after next year. Lebron James wins wherever he goes, so winning won't be his issue. After the Knickssigning him there will still be time to get another player to compliment him through future trades or FA.

If they were to sign Lebron, I think they can find a way to play everybody together without it being a distraction. I don't want to get into it too much with who plays what position, but I just think it shouldn't be a reason not to go after a player of that caliber.

Thats true about the consequences of resigning Lee and Robinson..but I would rather take that risk and if there is a trade, you get to include Curry and/or Jefferies involved. If you include Curry/Jefferies now..you don't get anything in return. If you include Curry/Jefferies a year from now, you could get value back because both would be expiring contracts. You put in Lee or Robinson + a future draft pick you might be able to get a good long term player to compliment the max contract FA signing.

The 3 scenarios I favor is
-Trade Lee/Robinson + Curry/Jefferies for a long term contract 1 year from now. While signing a max contract FA.
-Sign and trade Lee/Robinson now, but for cheap players/draft picks + expiring contracts that will help in the long term.
-Sign both Lee/Robinson and just sign 1 max FA player next offseason.

I don't favor:
-Trading Lee/Robinson + Harrington/Hughes/Richardson because it will prevent any max contract FA signing from happening next year, which even though it is not certain, it is our best chance of going from shit to a championship contender in 1 year.
- Getting nothing from Lee/Robinson
- Trading Lee/Robinson/8th pick with Curry/Jefferies for a Larry Hughes type worthless, expiring contract. Even though it gets more cap space, I feel like its worth the risk to wait and see if a better deal comes up in the future.

I agree, thanks for debating without any insults. It does not happen often enough on here.

Chandler has become entirely overrated.
Yes he would be a total upgrade at center...but his durability is a big question.

Williams/Varejao > Robinson/Lee

What source of information do you guys have that strong proves Lebron favors New York over Cleveland?

Lebron is actually a professional athlete with a chip on shoulder...trying to prove he could win a title at his age, carrying a medicore team with his elite abilties.

Lebron may fall to Orlando, but Cleveland will be in the hunt ever season...Cleveland were in the Finals two years ago...people forget that.

Who knows what move Cleveland will make to optimize their roster to ensure Lebron feels more comfortable with the roster.

Cleveland easily has the pieces to get another scorer to take pressure of Lebron.

2010 and Beyond

I am with Dave, I am not sure precisely how the max contract works. It is a function of the salary cap, number of years in the league and prior year's salary. I believe that a team can resign a player to a higher max than a new team can give him, and for more years, but do not have the details.

The max salary limit is the higher of 25% of the salary cap or 105% of the prior year's salary for players with fewer than 7 years of service at the time of the new contract and 30% of the salary cap or 105% of prior year's salary for players with 7 to 10 years of service. In 2010 LeBron will be beyond 7 years of service.

LeBron's 2009-10 salary with Cleveland will be $15.07M. If he does not opt out, his salary with Cleveland will be $16.378M for 2011. of course, he could opt out and sign a new contract with Cleveland that would pay him more than $16.378M for 2011.

The 2010 team salary cap is likely to be less than $60M. A first year max contract for LeBron if he were to choose to leave Cleveland in 2010, at 30% of $60M, would be $18M.

The Knicks currently have Curry ($11.276M), Jefferies ($6.883M), Gallinari ($2.753M), and Chandler ($1.775M) on committed 2010 salaries. If we stay at the 8th pick, his 2010 salary will likely be just south of $3M. If we move up in the draft, the better selection will cost more.

This produces a 2010 salary commitment of just under $26M. If we were to add LeBron at $18M, or one of the other stars at something close to that number, we will have about $44M committed, but only 6 players.

I expect the salary cap for 2010 to be less than $60M, but even assuming a $60M salary cap, we will only have $16M left for at least 6 more players. The minimum salary is about $500,000. We need at least Duhon or someone comparable and that will likely cost $5 to $6M. If we have 3 players at the minimum, we would have less than $10M left for Lee and Nate.

Can we afford to sign both of them without eliminating Curry and/or Jefferies first? I think that at least one of them is gone.

I can see how Curry and Jefferies can opt out at the end of this upcoming season (2009-2010). Walsh will strictly tell them in 2010 that they are not in his plans and they should try to get a long term deal somewhere else

datruth said:

u're crazy, i wont even trade wilson for prince straight up

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You're a god damn idiot.

and thus begins, OPERATION:chris paul.

ANU said:

and thus begins, OPERATION:chris paul.

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lol we can dream, but he aint going anywhere

knickzrulezH20 said:

lol we can dream, but he aint going anywhere

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chris should have never signed that extension..

ANU said:

chris should have never signed that extension..

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nah, i like it beta when athletes are loyal, its stupid seeing so many of them leave jst for money, wat if ewing left us for money? we'd go crzy. i like it beta when superstars are loyal to their team. itd just be to awkward seeing cp3 in anotha jersey

knickzrulezH20 said:

nah, i like it beta when athletes are loyal, its stupid seeing so many of them leave jst for money, wat if ewing left us for money? we'd go crzy. i like it beta when superstars are loyal to their team. itd just be to awkward seeing cp3 in anotha jersey

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ew would have never left.money is always last to dry up in nyc.the thing is, they'll never build a great team around chris.

ANU said:

ew would have never left.money is always last to dry up in nyc.the thing is, they'll never build a great team around chris.

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i kno he wudnt, im jst hypothetically speaking lol, and unfortunetely u mite be right about the last point. hes so good that no matter how crappy his teammates are, he'll lead them to the playoffs. but if his supporting cast keeps playing like crap they'll neva win anything in the playoffsand be stuck with draft picks in the 20's and neva get anywhere. i just hope that isnt the case