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Red
Nov 03, 2009, 09:44
"Mike D'Antoni's third change to the starting lineup in four games finally came up a winner. The Knicks got off to a good start but more importantly put the finish on a 117-111 victory over the New Orleans Hornets at the Garden last night.

"The pieces are just falling into place a little bit," D'Antoni said after he recorded his 300th career win and 33rd with the Knicks. "I don't want to get ahead of myself, we still have a long way to go to get where we're going, but we were much better tonight and we took a gigantic step forward, for sure."

Larry Hughes completed the outhouse-to-penthouse move as he went from a pair of DNP's in the first two games of the season to the starting shooting guard position and his contribution - 20 points, six rebounds - makes one wonder what made D'Antoni opt to leave him on the bench in the first place."


Hopefully this teaches this stubborn f*ck that the better players are on the bench. Starting Jeffries...SMH:td::shrug:

This dummy took 2 years to find a starting line up! Let's see how long this lasts.

Sorry to say but...

Hughes is our best SG.

And Douglas with work can probably be better than Duhon [already] especially defensively.

Knicks might be better without undersized N8- it forces others to get minutes and step up.

DaTPRiNCE
Nov 03, 2009, 10:35
why is Douglas not getting more miutes or touches???? its pissing me off we need him more now that Nate Robinson is injured

TunerAddict
Nov 03, 2009, 10:35
Have you watched any games?

Douglas is tentative as ****. Kid is too nervous and jumpy.

Plus he takes terrible shots.

Duhon > Douglas right now

Its not even close.

DontForgetDerekHarper
Nov 03, 2009, 15:21
yea ide have to agree, douglas has a hard time picking his spots. he hustles, but thats all he has to offer right now. he seriously reminds me of will bynum in allot of ways, and I think thats the best you are going to get out of him

nyk_nyk
Nov 03, 2009, 15:33
TD is a bit tentative out there but that's ok. He needs to get through that initial period as a rookie where the large arena crowds and being on TV every game get to you.

I already know he can produce, he just needs some confidence. Rookies who are only given a few minutes each game sometimes look tentative because their only playing to not make mistakes. Even though I feel TD has the better skill set, I wouldn't say he's better than Duhon right now.

DaTPRiNCE
Nov 03, 2009, 18:26
Have you watched any games?

Douglas is tentative as ****. Kid is too nervous and jumpy.

Plus he takes terrible shots.

Duhon > Douglas right now

Its not even close.

honestly i havent watched any work and school, but i been following and i look at the box scores and i see 6-7 minutes or w.e and i think whys he not playing loll

KING~POETIQ
Nov 03, 2009, 19:12
Red, I don't necessarily think the knicks are better off without Nate. Talent wise, he's better than almost everyone(gallo). Its more that d'antoni is not utilizing him the right way. With better coaching most of the players we have would be maximizing their skills.

jpz17
Nov 03, 2009, 20:31
Talent: Douglas
Experience: Duhon

JayJ44
Nov 03, 2009, 23:02
Red, I don't necessarily think the knicks are better off without Nate. Talent wise, he's better than almost everyone(gallo). Its more that d'antoni is not utilizing him the right way. With better coaching most of the players we have would be maximizing their skills.

Really? I think it's the opposite. Under another coach, I think most of our players would look a lot worse.

LOIOSH30
Nov 04, 2009, 08:22
Red, I don't necessarily think the knicks are better off without Nate. Talent wise, he's better than almost everyone(gallo). Its more that d'antoni is not utilizing him the right way. With better coaching most of the players we have would be maximizing their skills.

I don't think it's a question of D'antoni utilizing Nate properly. I think Nate goes out there and does what Nate wants to do, and when his shot's not falling, he's more concerned with running his mouth to the refs than he is with playing defense. How many time have we seen Nate get into personal scoring matches with the player he is guarding, then he completely stops running the offense and repeatedly goes one on one. Nate is just one of those guys that's a knucklehead, no coach will ever be able to get through to him...

Red
Nov 04, 2009, 11:47
Red, I don't necessarily think the knicks are better off without Nate. Talent wise, he's better than almost everyone(gallo). Its more that d'antoni is not utilizing him the right way. With better coaching most of the players we have would be maximizing their skills.

The thing I've learned regarding franchises and player evaluation is: When you have a questionable player i.e. N8, Lee etc... you have to learn to seperate being a fan -vs- an evaluator. N8 doesn't suck (neither does Lee or Duhon) but consider this... IF you had a more complete player WOULD you be questioning the play or minutes or production of these players? We are trying so hard to go outside the box to make up for dificiencies that we missed the fact that our players don't possess the natural skills to achieve fundamental goals. By harboring such players we not only effect the whole system but we neglect to address the need. N8 is N8. There is no need for further evaluation on him. We know he's undersized, fast, and streaky. This is ideal on a team needing a change of pace. Lee is limited and a compliment, best suited on a contender off the bench or next to a quality big. Duhon is a good back up best on a contender with little expectations, I realize this. So in short NONE of these players has what's needed to improve! That said minutes that are allocated to players of this calliber exacerbate the issue. Players like Douglas and Hughes although limited actually have more of what is needed (defensively) than N8, Lee and Du. Therefore now that you are forced to live w/o appeasing these players the more you see how more all around players are needed. The undersize-mismatch-inconsistant rotations and questionable roles over years shows the right players aren't the "stars" of this team.

Knickslife031
Nov 04, 2009, 12:01
Douglas is not better than duhon buy maybe athleticly but he's definitely not smarter and he don't past better than duhon so please this gut got years to go to even get on duhon level.

Red
Nov 04, 2009, 12:05
please no 2K bashing but... when I run a franchise (NYK's) I go through this (which is similar to real life). Damn what do I do w/ N8? He's one of my highest rated players he needs to start. Then after a few games I realize I need someone to play D, slow the penitration and knock down outside shots when swung to him. Not a primary scorer. Just facilitate and play D. Since his rating is higher than Du, I'm conflicted- Du does what I need better but slow and N8 is rated higher- what to do? The same with Lee. He's my highest rated PF but he's not doing what I need on defense and is limited on Off. but Jordan Hill is somewhat more athletic- what to do Lee is rated higher?

I try every rotation combo possible (sound familiar?) and the results continue... . Then I get into my f*ck-it mode and let go Lee or N8 (its hard b/c I want to win with them being homegrown) and who I get is a player that Excells in "what I need him to do". Not the most expensive or highest rated but fits the pedigree of what I need. My type that plays my game. Problem is D'Antonis' game is flawed. N8, Lee even Chandler etc... DONT FIT THE PEDIGREE. They do not fit what is needed either limited by natural ability or whatever. Either too short, slow, inconsistant whatever. Stop trying to make them something they are not.

Stop trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Realize the more you deny and work around the more you neglect getting those who do fit onto the floor. Hughes although limited is our best SG period. Douglas although raw is/ can be our best PG. Lee ISN'T A CENTER and his limitations make him and N8 completely expendable. I don't want these 2 back here for any amount of money! I can achieve these same results with less than half this payroll. I need players that fit the pedigree at least on a basic athletic level (not mentioning intangibles like leadership). Not superstars but those who at least have the natural ability to learn and get better. Lee and N8 are Lee and N8, you will never see anything more from them... Its time to realize this and move on!

KING~POETIQ
Nov 05, 2009, 11:18
I don't think it's a question of D'antoni utilizing Nate properly. I think Nate goes out there and does what Nate wants to do, and when his shot's not falling, he's more concerned with running his mouth to the refs than he is with playing defense. How many time have we seen Nate get into personal scoring matches with the player he is guarding, then he completely stops running the offense and repeatedly goes one on one. Nate is just one of those guys that's a knucklehead, no coach will ever be able to get through to him...

What are you retarded??? Nate was averaging 30 minutes a game last season. It was d'antoni's CHOICE to play him that much. Now, I like nate as a player, but if he's ****in up I would take away minutes. That's what I was referring to when I talked about d'antoni's utilization of players. Its total bull****. He doesn't know how to plug in players at certain spots.

LOIOSH30
Nov 05, 2009, 15:29
The only reason Nate averaged 30 min last year was him and Al were the only players that could score... If D'antoni had his choice Nate wouldn't even be on this team, look at all the guys we tried to get this summer, if we had got even one of them, Nate would not be on this team...

KING~POETIQ
Nov 05, 2009, 22:03
I base my view on facts not on weak emotions. 30 minutes a game for nate means mr. Pringles loves you. Its a fact. Look what he did to marbury. No love, no ball action (no homo).



Now back to the point at hand:


I'm telling y'all, d'antoni's utilization of players is ****TY.

KING~POETIQ
Nov 05, 2009, 22:13
Really? I think it's the opposite. Under another coach, I think most of our players would look a lot worse.

Offensively, of course. But all around, our players would be better off with other coaches. Plus, d'antoni is making mediocre players feel like future hall-of-famers. Which means they want a higher cash-flow for skills that are figments of our imagination.

Red
Nov 10, 2009, 06:56
did u see Douglas last night? I couldn't watch tho whole game, saw he had 21.Douglas > Dohun give him the rock

Scipio
Nov 10, 2009, 08:51
Douglas played really well last night.

I say we should start with him. Duhon is a dreadful player so even though Douglas is inexperienced and a little tentative we should start with him.

Consider this also. If this is a transition year and it`s all about building the future isn`t it better to play Douglas so as to get him good experience so that next season he is really ready to go and will have used this season to develop. Surely that`s btter than giving him a few minutes here and there behind Duhon and Robinson.

SSj4Wingzero
Nov 10, 2009, 13:07
Put it this way there's no way our team can get any worse if we start Douglas; Duhon might be the worst starting Point Guard in the entire league.

LOIOSH30
Nov 10, 2009, 13:32
Put it this way there's no way our team can get any worse if we start Douglas; Duhon might be the worst starting Point Guard in the entire league.

Yeah, that's exactly the way I see it...We're already a trainwreck, might as well let the rookie get some experience. And Duhon IS the worst starting point guard in the league, this guy is worse than Howard Eisley...:barf:

KING~POETIQ
Nov 10, 2009, 19:06
And Duhon IS the worst starting point guard in the league, this guy is worse than Howard Eisley...:barf:

Nah, he's worser. He has reached rick brunson status.



somebody needs to send oscar the grouch(duhon) back to sesame street.

Paul1355
Nov 10, 2009, 22:08
Douglas should start...Duhon has been on a "cold streak" all season...there is something wrong with him this year. He does not play aggressive offensive basketball and draw fouls which was his main skill last year. Duhon has also shown to have a very low IQ with his telegraphed passes, turnovers, and over rated defense. Duhon was good last year, and very good before the all star break last year, but now he is proving that he will always be a bench player.

Douglas has a different attitude towards the game that Duhon does not have, Douglas will take over if he has to. Duhon will do anything to think that he has to drive to the hoop and pass outside to win games, Duhon barely tries to take over and when he does we usually come up short. Duhon has only shown bright spots when the game is close and he drives towards the basket for a lay up or foul.

Douglas is a gamer, plain and simple. He knows his role and will go beyond by himself and not go back to the bad play calling by Duhon and/or Mike D has taught the team.

CoolClyde
Nov 11, 2009, 02:00
Agreed, start Douglas over Duhon. we've got nothing to lose, other than more games started by Duhon. His aggression level is close to molasses, he gets an occasional hot streak going, but his pick n roll offense with Lee disappears against better teams, and his defense sucks badly.

Douglas has spunk, and this Jizz game could be his coming-out party. Let's hope No-D'Antoni's love affair with Duhon ends sooner than later. Coach K must have convinced him at the Olympics that Duhon was a winner in college, but the NBA has proven otherwise. Duhon is a sleepy-eyed, inconsistent player, Douglas has the makings of a star. Let's check him out now! Bench Duhon!

Kiyaman
Nov 11, 2009, 13:59
: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knick...#ixzz0WPwPLuDi


After reading all the responses to this thread there isnt much I can add b/c I agree to alot of points made. However, the above article has alot to do with why the Knicks are 1-7 rather than 4-3.

No one had any complaints about Duhon starting the first 51 games last season averaging 44 mpg.

This season things look confusing with Duhon "trying" to set the team-temple for how the guards should run things, and Harrington "trying" to set the team-temple for the bigmen. They are not qualified.

Red....I like alot of things u wrote but I have to disagree with u on Nate & Lee, this Knick team needs them now and in the future. Both players has been playing out of their natural position for the last two seasons. So any mistake or flaws in their game last season dont count b/c they did well playing out of positions and in a 6-man rotation the majority of the season.
And last year this time both should've been given a lucrative one year extension for this season for the purpose of the 2010 plan.

Kiyaman
Nov 11, 2009, 14:17
Oh yeah, Toney D. hyped himself up very well for the challenge of being able to compete against Deron Williams.

I doubt in his rookie season if he is able to give us that same consistent performance on a nightly basis.
I like the idea of a Toney D. and Nate tandem starting the 2nd quarter with Chandler inside game, Gallo outside game, and Lee's great passing off the rebound to start the transition game flowing.

StreetDreams21
Nov 11, 2009, 19:10
Yessssss Toney is starting today!

Red
Nov 11, 2009, 19:20
Yessssss Toney is starting today!

Damn! T-Doug starting... and we're winning?! Imma change my name to NostroRedness! Let me stop. And Kiya- f*ck Lee and N8 they are too expensive and expendable. Why you think they got 1 yr deals that won't be extended?

Kiyaman
Nov 11, 2009, 19:46
Damn! T-Doug starting... and we're winning?! Imma change my name to NostroRedness! Let me stop. And Kiya- f*ck Lee and N8 they are too expensive and expendable. Why you think they got 1 yr deals that won't be extended?

Toney D. is starting alongside of Duhon.....but the Knicks bench is the winning crew in the first half of the game.

thomasv78
Nov 11, 2009, 20:12
interesting note...

T Douglas and former Knick point guard Charlie Ward both played college ball at FSU.

Douglas was not a traditional point at FSU - I think he is best suited playing a 6th man role

Red
Nov 12, 2009, 08:21
O.K. now that we've established T-Doug is better. Get Hill some minutes Mustache! Why... 1) because Lee won't be here 2) Your a great coach right? So take his raw talent and develop him. Proove why you used the pick on him 3) Losing don't matter- we don't have a draft pick ANYWAY!! 4) he's probably better than Lee already! 5) By next year he can really be a contributer.

TunerAddict
Nov 12, 2009, 10:29
I'm hoping last nights game put Toney as the starting pointguard and relegated Duhon to the bench.

Seriously. Douglas is playing great, Hughes is playing great, Duhon not so much...Duhon had his chances to snap out of this slump, **** ain't happening anytime soon. Rest him, teach him a lesson, if he somehow turns it around, then change it back, but right now he is doing nothing but hurting the team.

Crazy⑧s
Nov 12, 2009, 10:47
I agree he's better (no brainer), but whether or not starting him now is good timing is circumstantial in regard to the seasons progression.

Thank Allah that Sessions wasn't signed... Prefer Toney D over that kid any day.

In a years time, (if not sooner) we'll be saying Toney D is better than N8 as well. As of now, N8's superiority is only marginal IMO. Why? Starts with D and ends with E.

Duhon is a hard wood wench.

LJ4ptplay
Nov 12, 2009, 10:51
O.K. now that we've established T-Doug is better. Get Hill some minutes Mustache! Why... 1) because Lee won't be here 2) Your a great coach right? So take his raw talent and develop him. Proove why you used the pick on him 3) Losing don't matter- we don't have a draft pick ANYWAY!! 4) he's probably better than Lee already! 5) By next year he can really be a contributer.

I think he's playing Jeffries so he can be traded. Hill will probably see more time after the trade deadline when it is finally realized that it's hopeless to try and trade Jeffries. Plus, Hill has looked completely lost in practice (Alan Hahn's words not mine).

Like you said, losing doesn't matter. Getting rid of Jeffries and Curry is far more important than giving Hill playing time.

And D'Antoni didn't draft Hill, Walsh did. Makes you really wonder about Walsh's drafting ability. Drafting a guy that can't even crack the rotation on one of the worst teams in the league. SMH.

And apparently Walsh said he didn't have enough information on Jennings to draft him at #8. WTF? How is that possible when many posters (including myself) on this site knew Jennings was the better pick??

nyk_nyk
Nov 12, 2009, 13:02
I think he's playing Jeffries so he can be traded. Hill will probably see more time after the trade deadline when it is finally realized that it's hopeless to try and trade Jeffries. Plus, Hill has looked completely lost in practice (Alan Hahn's words not mine).

Like you said, losing doesn't matter. Getting rid of Jeffries and Curry is far more important than giving Hill playing time.

And D'Antoni didn't draft Hill, Walsh did. Makes you really wonder about Walsh's drafting ability. Drafting a guy that can't even crack the rotation on one of the worst teams in the league. SMH.

And apparently Walsh said he didn't have enough information on Jennings to draft him at #8. WTF? How is that possible when many posters (including myself) on this site knew Jennings was the better pick??

That's a huge concern. GM not doing his homework. Hill was the best bigman on the board at #8 by default, so that IMO was not worth drafting him. ALSO, there were still a few PGs left who were highly regarded. Until Hill proves he's starter quality... Draft FAIL.

Now on to Duhon. This guy is not even a 2nd string pg. Please Mr. Pringles sit his ass down ASAP and run TD or Nate with Hughes.

LJ4ptplay
Nov 12, 2009, 13:55
It's a sad display of the talent level of this team when Douglas, Curry and Nate are the hopeful saviors of this season.

Douglas is decent but he doesn't have the control of the team that D'Antoni requires for his system. Good scorer and good defender but the 1:3 assist to turnover ratio is not going to lead to many more wins.

Another scoring PG is not going to cut it in D'Antoni's system. He'll make a decent backup PG for his career but don't pin your hopes on this kid being our PG of the future. Better than Duhon at least.

mafra
Nov 12, 2009, 14:08
It's a sad display of the talent level of this team when Douglas, Curry and Nate are the hopeful saviors of this season.

Douglas is decent but he doesn't have the control of the team that D'Antoni requires for his system. Good scorer and good defender but the 1:3 assist to turnover ratio is not going to lead to many more wins.

Another scoring PG is not going to cut it in D'Antoni's system. He'll make a decent backup PG for his career but don't pin your hopes on this kid being our PG of the future. Better than Duhon at least.

Can we take comfort in seeing that DOUGLAS (right now) appears to be better than Stephen Curry? At leats more NBA ready.... Maybe Curry would be a better point, but I doubt a better defender.

thomasv78
Nov 12, 2009, 18:58
Can we take comfort in seeing that DOUGLAS (right now) appears to be better than Stephen Curry? At leats more NBA ready.... Maybe Curry would be a better point, but I doubt a better defender.

Are you kidding me. Toney Douglas plays the point position more like a shooting guard than anything else.

I like Douglas, but not as a point. I think he would make an excellent 6th man.

Stephen Curry is a true point guard, he knows how to get his team involved and spread the offense.

If you're purely looking at stats than let me remind you how crappy we were w/ Marbury and his bloated stats.

mafra
Nov 13, 2009, 14:41
Are you kidding me. Toney Douglas plays the point position more like a shooting guard than anything else.

I like Douglas, but not as a point. I think he would make an excellent 6th man.

Stephen Curry is a true point guard, he knows how to get his team involved and spread the offense.

If you're purely looking at stats than let me remind you how crappy we were w/ Marbury and his bloated stats.

Right now Curry just cannot defend- he's physically not strong enough to cover anyone really.

Douglas just came from Fla St. where he was aksed to carry the load.

I think it might be easier to teach Douglas to pass the ball than it's going to be to groom Curry into a viable defensive presence.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted Curry. BUT, right now having Douglas + Hill seems like a nice consolation.

Be even better if we manage to get Rubio as well.

KING~POETIQ
Nov 13, 2009, 15:09
Damn he really sukks.