PDA

View Full Version : The Big Debate.



Crazy⑧s
Jun 03, 2010, 23:50
What's your opinion on the future state of the Knicks if Lebron doesn't sign here?


In light of a decade of suffering Knick fandom, and 2 years of -let's face it- tanking in the name of James, who is calling failure if he doesn't come?

I'm not. The big reason being that we had to drag the franchise out of the financial toilet.

I'll elaborate later but leave on this note:

Anyone who thinks the Randolph and Crawford trade not happening would have us in a better situation now............. You are a smelly person.

Prepare for the onslaught of a Kiyaman stampede!

iSaYughh
Jun 04, 2010, 01:14
Not really. Sign JJ, Lee, TyrusT.

Douglas
JJ-Walker
Gallo-Chandler
Lee
Tyrus-Barron

Team would at least be a lotta fun to watch next year; and could be a sleeper.

Could still look to do a Chandler + pick for Flynn/Rubio too, eg.

Let The McFlurry melt. Ink Melo/Parker after but 1 more season.

Still in good, maybe great shape; and certainly a revolution, tho maybe an imperfect one, from the epic-fail Walsh inherited.

Crazy⑧s
Jun 04, 2010, 01:36
Not really. Sign JJ, Lee, TyrusT.

Douglas
JJ-Walker
Gallo-Chandler
Lee
Tyrus-Barron

Team would at least be a lotta fun to watch next year; and could be a sleeper.

Could still look to do a Chandler + pick for Flynn/Rubio too, eg.

Let The McFlurry melt. Ink Melo/Parker after but 1 more season.

Still in good, maybe great shape; and certainly a revolution, tho maybe an imperfect one, from the epic-fail Walsh inherited.

BANG!

Off to a great start in my eyes.

wnyknicksfan
Jun 04, 2010, 06:27
I love that line up and it would be more entertaining to watch it would be total team play then add varando and vasguez then you sign two other players to the minnimum undrafts or vetran free agents

TR1LL10N
Jun 04, 2010, 08:56
It's a failure only because we shed cap in such a hurry that we traded Hill and future picks in the hopes of making a splash in 2010. If we don't get 2 max worthy players or close to it this year then the urgency was not justified. Having cap space is always good but having draft picks and cap space at a slower pace may be better if Lebron caliber players don't sign this year.

SSj4Wingzero
Jun 04, 2010, 11:13
Yeah. If we don't get 2 maxes, we could've just let Jeffries' contract expire, keep Jordan Hill as our Center, drafted some PGs in the draft, used our 2011 draft pick (that would've been higher), and signed Carmelo Anthony in 2011 since he's pretty high (no pun intended) on coming to New York.

LJ4ptplay
Jun 04, 2010, 11:55
It was a necessary risk though, so I'm not going to complain about it if Lebron doesn't come. It was guaranteed that nobody was coming if Jeffries was still here.

With our cap flexibility, we have countless options available to us. At the very latest, by this year's trade deadline, we will have a very good team. A team that is a thousand times better than the one we would have had we kept Crawford and Z-Bo.

Teams will be desperate and we will be the beneficiaries. We may even be able to recoup some of those lost draft picks. So Lebron, or no Lebron, I like where we are headed.

LJ4ptplay
Jun 04, 2010, 13:40
Heck, worst case scenario is better than what we had before. I would be happy if we signed Lee, Rudy Gay, Steve Blake, Anthony Morrow and Tyrus Thomas. Then traded Curry's contract for Andres Biedrens.

PG-Blake
SG-Gay
SF-Gallo
PF-Lee
C-Biedrens

w/ Douglas, Morrow, Chandler, Thomas and Walker off the bench.

That's a deep team with a lot of versaltility and a good mix of defense and offense. A lot of players that can play multiple positions, which D'Antoni likes.

You could do a pure offense lineup with Blake, Morrow, Gay, Gallo and Lee. Or a pure defense lineup with Douglas, Chandler, Gay, Thomas adn Biedrens. The Suns were a 10 deep team all year and throughout the playoffs.

wnyknicksfan
Jun 04, 2010, 14:17
I love that idea too and it would be possible to make a team with no allstar

SSj4Wingzero
Jun 04, 2010, 15:20
I like that except I want the cap space to sign Carmelo Anthony

Kiyaman
Jun 04, 2010, 15:47
All of Isiah Thomas players contracts expired after the 2010-11 season taking us out of any high salary cap.

Zach & Crawford was the Knicks leading scorers that wanted Isiah FIRED.
But then all the players/coaches wanted Isiah FIRED.
Giving the coaching-chain to interim coach Herb Williams, who is known for not taking any bull from Marbury wouldve been the best move to make to raise all of Isiah's players "trade-value" for good prospects in return during the 2009 trading deadline/draft night trades/offseason trades/2010 deadline trades.

The 2 year TANKING and DNP of healthy players were all uncalled for.

SSj4Wingzero
Jun 04, 2010, 15:57
Hey look a Kiyaman post that doesn't say "D'amntoni" in it!

Seriously though, trading Jordan Hill would have been a waste. I thought he had some pretty good potential to be a decent, if undersized, center...

XH20X
Jun 04, 2010, 17:21
if we do not get lebron, I just wish we have a young, hustling, don't die attitude team. I'm sick of the Knick team quitting on the coach year after year. Maybe the Knicks can be the next Oklahoma City Thunder. I'm happy if we have at least half the talent of that team.

lilman_bklyn
Jun 04, 2010, 18:34
the only way these past two years are not a waste is ONLY if Wade or Lebron is signed. If not, its been a total waste. Anyone who says its not is completely fooling themselves. Listen, when walsh announced his "plan" for getting the knicks back to a respectable organization, he all but said its going to be respectable because of lebron james. so he put all his eggs in one basket. He didn't try to make the team he inherited better, he traded or released the top 3 players at the time, he made a ridiculous draft pick in Hill when point guards were available, then you counters that by allowing his coach to not play him.

You guys can **** on Zach Randolph and Crawford all you want, but the fact of the matter is, they were a product of the system. They each went to different systems, with better coaches, and they excelled. If Isiah thomas would have hired a real coach the knicks would have been a better team years ago, If donnie walsh didn't compound on Isiahs mistakes and hire the wrong kind of coach for the Knicks, they would have been a better team.

OriginalKnickGrandson
Jun 04, 2010, 19:04
As I look into my crystal ball I see Lebron staying in CLE., Wade stays in MIA and is joined by Bosh, Amare stays in PHX, Dirk stays in DAL, and JJ goes to CHI with Boozer. The Knick allow Lee to sign elsewhere while waiting for the "King" to choose to stay home.

That brings us to another season of losing with the hope of landing some "Big" FA in 2011? But untill then we'll have to field a team and it may look something like this???

TD/???
Walker/??? (I'd like A.Marrow here)
Chandler/
Gallo/Draft
Curry/??? (maybe B.Haywood) / Draft

Then at the end of another losing season D'antoni is fired and is replaced by Mark Jackson as Head Coach and Patrick Ewing as Assistant Head Coach and Bigs Coach, They start by bringing back tough NY style of play Basketball find us a real Center (maybe Pat could bring D.Howard with him :)) and PG and they bring KNICK'S BASKETBALL back to where it should be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.......... just saying :)

SSj4Wingzero
Jun 04, 2010, 21:52
Randolph and Crawford are good players but they're good COMPLIMENTARY players.

Crawford is playing well but have you realized that he's the SIXTH MAN for the Hawks? He was our #2 option, and yet he's only a 6th man on a playoff team? FFS that should give you an idea of how a team with Randolph and Crawford as its main players would've done if Crawford is a 6th man on a team that barely even got out of the playoffs

Z-Bo's team didn't even make the playoffs even though they've got two of the better wing players in the game, a decent PG in Mike Conley, and a true center in Marc Gasol. Shows you how useful Z-Bo is...

And I also have to add that Z-Bo's team didn't make the playoffs DESPITE the fact that he was playing with all-star caliber players O.J. Mayo and Rudy Gay. If the Grizzlies couldn't make the playoffs surrounding Z-Bo with that sort of talent, what makes you think that we'd make the playoffs surrounding him with Marbury and Jeffries?

The answer: We wouldn't.

smokes
Jun 04, 2010, 21:58
Randolph and Crawford are good players but they're good COMPLIMENTARY players.

Crawford is playing well but have you realized that he's the SIXTH MAN for the Hawks? He was our #2 option, and yet he's only a 6th man on a playoff team? FFS that should give you an idea of how a team with Randolph and Crawford as its main players would've done if Crawford is a 6th man on a team that barely even got out of the playoffs

Z-Bo's team didn't even make the playoffs even though they've got two of the better wing players in the game, a decent PG in Mike Conley, and a true center in Marc Gasol. Shows you how useful Z-Bo is...

And I also have to add that Z-Bo's team didn't make the playoffs DESPITE the fact that he was playing with all-star caliber players O.J. Mayo and Rudy Gay. If the Grizzlies couldn't make the playoffs surrounding Z-Bo with that sort of talent, what makes you think that we'd make the playoffs surrounding him with Marbury and Jeffries?

The answer: We wouldn't.

I agree we wouldn't be particularly successful with zbo/crawford but if the Grizz played in the East they almost certainly would make the playoffs with that roster.

Kiyaman
Jun 05, 2010, 01:06
if we do not get lebron, I just wish we have a young, hustling, don't die attitude team. I'm sick of the Knick team quitting on the coach year after year. Maybe the Knicks can be the next Oklahoma City Thunder. I'm happy if we have at least half the talent of that team.


Lebron becoming a Knick has always been a big fantasy joke.
The new/improve young OKC, couldve been the Knicks with all of Isiah's draft picks still on the Knicks.
Isiah cant trade a dollar for a dollar but he is great at drafting NBA-Ready players.

Kiyaman
Jun 05, 2010, 01:12
the only way these past two years are not a waste is ONLY if Wade or Lebron is signed. If not, its been a total waste. Anyone who says its not is completely fooling themselves. Listen, when walsh announced his "plan" for getting the knicks back to a respectable organization, he all but said its going to be respectable because of lebron james. so he put all his eggs in one basket. He didn't try to make the team he inherited better, he traded or released the top 3 players at the time, he made a ridiculous draft pick in Hill when point guards were available, then you counters that by allowing his coach to not play him.

You guys can **** on Zach Randolph and Crawford all you want, but the fact of the matter is, they were a product of the system. They each went to different systems, with better coaches, and they excelled. If Isiah thomas would have hired a real coach the knicks would have been a better team years ago, If donnie walsh didn't compound on Isiahs mistakes and hire the wrong kind of coach for the Knicks, they would have been a better team.

:agreed:
Without Isiah in the picture his roster was a 40+ win team.

Kiyaman
Jun 05, 2010, 01:25
As I look into my crystal ball I see Lebron staying in CLE., Wade stays in MIA and is joined by Bosh, Amare stays in PHX, Dirk stays in DAL, and JJ goes to CHI with Boozer. The Knick allow Lee to sign elsewhere while waiting for the "King" to choose to stay home.

That brings us to another season of losing with the hope of landing some "Big" FA in 2011? But untill then we'll have to field a team and it may look something like this???

TD/???
Walker/??? (I'd like A.Marrow here)
Chandler/
Gallo/Draft
Curry/??? (maybe B.Haywood) / Draft

Then at the end of another losing season D'antoni is fired and is replaced by Mark Jackson as Head Coach and Patrick Ewing as Assistant Head Coach and Bigs Coach, They start by bringing back tough NY style of play Basketball find us a real Center (maybe Pat could bring D.Howard with him :)) and PG and they bring KNICK'S BASKETBALL back to where it should be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.......... just saying :)


:agreed:
Damn! I been seeing the next two seasons roster the sameway, especially when we traded our first round picks in 2009, 2012, and swapped the 2011 pick with a 45 win team. that is an unstable move!!!

SSj4Wingzero
Jun 05, 2010, 01:49
I agree we wouldn't be particularly successful with zbo/crawford but if the Grizz played in the East they almost certainly would make the playoffs with that roster.

Yeah they'd make the playoffs cause they have Gay, Gasol playing Center, O.J. Mayo AND Mike Conley

Whereas we've got a clown like Chris Duhon playing the point.

And you said Isiah could draft NBA-ready players...Renaldo Balkman? Isiah drafted pretty well but he screwed the pooch on the Balkman pick when we could've had Rajon Rondo.

Kiyaman
Jun 05, 2010, 01:56
Randolph and Crawford are good players but they're good COMPLIMENTARY players.

Crawford is playing well but have you realized that he's the SIXTH MAN for the Hawks? He was our #2 option, and yet he's only a 6th man on a playoff team? FFS that should give you an idea of how a team with Randolph and Crawford as its main players would've done if Crawford is a 6th man on a team that barely even got out of the playoffs

Z-Bo's team didn't even make the playoffs even though they've got two of the better wing players in the game, a decent PG in Mike Conley, and a true center in Marc Gasol. Shows you how useful Z-Bo is...

And I also have to add that Z-Bo's team didn't make the playoffs DESPITE the fact that he was playing with all-star caliber players O.J. Mayo and Rudy Gay. If the Grizzlies couldn't make the playoffs surrounding Z-Bo with that sort of talent, what makes you think that we'd make the playoffs surrounding him with Marbury and Jeffries?

The answer: We wouldn't.


:smokin::smokin::smokin::smokin:
I never did like Crawful or Zbo, but we had the right players at the time to put alongside of them in a lineup to make us a .500 team at the 2009 trading deadline to get something decent in return/even from the same teams we traded them to.
I wasnt mad at the Crawford trade for Harrington, as long as we had a rotation of Lee, Zbo, Chandler, and Harrington to throw at teams/ with Collins replacing some of Crawford minutes.
Isiah was a bad G.M. and a hated headcoach by his players.

SG-OJ Mayo run the point better than PG-Conley
Plus headcoach Hollins is still in his learning years of making a career at being headcoach.

SSj4Wingzero
Jun 05, 2010, 02:03
Z-Bo and Lee on the same team was stupid. They're both PF and we had no shotblocking presence...

My ONLY gripe with Donnie Walsh is that I think he could've traded Z-Bo for someone way better than Cuttino Mobley and his heart condition (Mobley would've been a great player for us if he weren't sick, luckily they found it).

I mean come on there have to be some better expirings out there than Mobley's...

Crazy⑧s
Jun 05, 2010, 03:06
^

It was the insurance on the contract that made it so appealing. I've no doubt that the Knicks and Clippers discussed Mobley's condition prior to the trade. Denying knowledge of it was a hoax.

Scribbles
Jun 05, 2010, 08:36
I mean if not LeBron, there's always Ricardo...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWb34L-Qn8

Kiyaman
Jun 05, 2010, 09:48
Z-Bo and Lee on the same team was stupid. They're both PF and we had no shotblocking presence...

My ONLY gripe with Donnie Walsh is that I think he could've traded Z-Bo for someone way better than Cuttino Mobley and his heart condition (Mobley would've been a great player for us if he weren't sick, luckily they found it).

I mean come on there have to be some better expirings out there than Mobley's...

Sometimes nature prewarns us about a situation "an overweight person accidently drops both full plates of food at a buffet". Red Flag.
All that food was not meant for the overweight person to eat at one time.

Cutino Mobley started every game that season for the (2-13) Clippers averaging 32 mpg. Failed the Knicks physical with flying colors being noted by two specialist that Mobley's "career in the NBA is over" after the physical.
The trade was cancel at that point, unless a future first round draft pick was added. Mobley's 2 yr contract was total at $18.5M. Red Flag!
We could'nt trade Mobley's one year $9.5M contract with insurace covering more than half.
We had a somewhat serviceable 30 lb weight loss Eddy Curry 2 yr contract totaled at $19M we couldnt trade to any team with our first round pick included.
So for anyone to think/justify Donnie Walsh decision to trade Zbo who was off to having an All-Star season for an unserviceable Mobley for 2 yrs is a nuts n bolts conversation.
There was no way Zbo was going to put any effort or keep up his career 20-10 stat for Donnie Walsh friend Dunleavy, both became Zbo enemies in that trade.

For Knick Fans to believe Memphis bigman lineup of C-Gasol, PF-Zbo, and SF-Gay, is better lineup than C-Lee, PF-Zbo, and SF-Chandler, is another nuts n bolts conversation.

lilman_bklyn
Jun 05, 2010, 10:59
Randolph and Crawford are good players but they're good COMPLIMENTARY players.

Crawford is playing well but have you realized that he's the SIXTH MAN for the Hawks? He was our #2 option, and yet he's only a 6th man on a playoff team? FFS that should give you an idea of how a team with Randolph and Crawford as its main players would've done if Crawford is a 6th man on a team that barely even got out of the playoffs

Z-Bo's team didn't even make the playoffs even though they've got two of the better wing players in the game, a decent PG in Mike Conley, and a true center in Marc Gasol. Shows you how useful Z-Bo is...

And I also have to add that Z-Bo's team didn't make the playoffs DESPITE the fact that he was playing with all-star caliber players O.J. Mayo and Rudy Gay. If the Grizzlies couldn't make the playoffs surrounding Z-Bo with that sort of talent, what makes you think that we'd make the playoffs surrounding him with Marbury and Jeffries?

The answer: We wouldn't.

Look real quick, just because a person is a sixth man doesn't mean that person doesn't play a big part in the teams game(see Ginobili and Odom to mention 2). he was a six man but played the 4th most minutes on the team. He was part of the crunch time 5 on the court, he wasn't only the sixth man for the Hawks, he won six man of the year. My point, A good coach could have gotten this production out of Crawford while he was with the knicks.

And your Z-Bo comment was totally off basis, makes me know for a fact that you only watch basketball when it comes on msg. ZBO was the allstar caliber player on the Grizz, Zbo was one of the better power forwards in the league this year... yea, the grizz didn't make the playoffs, thats because unlike the east, the west are filled with powerhouse teams, if the Knicks were in the west, no telling how bad our record could have been.

I'll stick to my statement, and my main point which was, If the Knicks do no get Wade or James, it is a failure, because the Knicks traded away good assets for nothing... assests that I believe could have had made the knicks a decent team if they would have chosen a different better coach

O & B
Jun 05, 2010, 11:01
If not this year, Chris Paul and Carmelo Anthony next year, but Im 100 percent sure someone will sign with us this year or some trade might happen. Imo, Rubio to NY to me is still possible