Basketball Champions Offensive and Defensive ratings (last 15 years)

smokes

Huge Member
OMG. Not talking about this year. I'm talking about all years. I'm talking about MDA during the Phoenix years. Without defense, championships are going to always be just out of reach.

You didn't read the entire post did you. Most desirable is both offense and defense in the top 10. 4 teams didn't have both in top 10.

3 of those 4 teams were top in defense.

The remaining team became an elite defensive team in the playoffs.

You are going to apologize when MDA never wins us one, right?

Seriously things are changing in the team I don't know if you watch games but there is plenty of defense going on, we're not great at it yet, the team has not enough experience to get everything sorted on either end. Thing is one on one with Stat and Melo is easy offensively, defense teamwork is always required.

We'll get better no doubt. We do need a big guy though we are lacking like 5 RPG as a team so filling that void is important. But can't blame coach that we don't have a big guy right now.

I don't think anyone in their right mind can expect a deep playoff run this year. Getting past the first round would be an achievement.

When we have a complete team, then let's see where we are on the table of top defensive teams.
 
I have no idea where the Suns D "ranked". I'm still waiting for the answers. I know they weren't top 10, but where exactly did they rank on D in terms of pts per game allowed & FG % during the 4 full seasons D'Antoni coached?

I don't need to know where PHX D's "ranked". I know enough to know that MDA never had a chance to lead PHX to top D's.

Doesn't mean NY cant build a top 10 D' under MDA with the KNICKS. Much different players.

Way before "MDA" Nash was considered a very bad defender (still is). TD has been great on D since his FSU days, & has been outstanding under MDA. Joe Johnson has never been known for his "D". That was before, during & after MDA's time with PHX. We have Fields who under MDA; has shown ability to play strong peremeter D' as a rook. Melo is playing D under MDA & a focused Melo is much better than Marion. We lack size, Center(s), blocekd shots & ability to board. Amare is our ONLY rebounding threat who blocks shots as a Big. Weird, coming from someone who; came from PHX with MDA.
 
@ rono... I have many of post's on here talking about Charles Smith. Never called him "Anthony before". Been a long time since the Dudley days, not sure why I called him Bill.

Also, just because Mozgov was 7'1... Doesn't mean he was productive. The man was only averaging 2 & 3 or 3 & 4 as a starter. Pathetic for a 7 footer. Our SG Fields rebounds better than that Russian project.

Don't even think about blaming MDA for the loses of Mozgov & Randolph. MDA was against the trade to begin with. So was Walsh. Dolan forced the trade to happen (I'm glad he did too). MDA gave Randolph a chance & he wasn't all that impressive. Mason is now getting minutes & thats a perfect example of a coach not throwing raw bench players into the fire & feeding them to NBA wolves. MDA wasn't the only coach who didn't play Randolph; another good coach did too lol.

If MDA didn't teach D... A rookie in Fields, who MDA loved & gave a chance to since day one; wouldn't play tough D. Same goes for TD. Amare wouldn't be our best big on D.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
I have no idea where the Suns D "ranked". I'm still waiting for the answers. I know they weren't top 10, but where exactly did they rank on D in terms of pts per game allowed & FG % during the 4 full seasons D'Antoni coached?

I don't need to know where PHX D's "ranked". I know enough to know that MDA never had a chance to lead PHX to top D's.

Doesn't mean NY cant build a top 10 D' under MDA with the KNICKS. Much different players.

Way before "MDA" Nash was considered a very bad defender (still is). TD has been great on D since his FSU days, & has been outstanding under MDA. Joe Johnson has never been known for his "D". That was before, during & after MDA's time with PHX. We have Fields who under MDA; has shown ability to play strong peremeter D' as a rook. Melo is playing D under MDA & a focused Melo is much better than Marion. We lack size, Center(s), blocekd shots & ability to board. Amare is our ONLY rebounding threat who blocks shots as a Big. Weird, coming from someone who; came from PHX with MDA.

Melo, Fields, and Amare are all good rebounders. PHX's defense was never top 10. Offense, as you can tell by the stats, matters, but so does Defense... moreso than offense.

Your questions serve against your point. Your point is, well it doesn't matter if their defense was crap... he had one of the top offenses...

Yes a top offense that never won a championship. If he cared as much about defense as you let on, why didn't his team rank in top 10? Top 5? 11 of the last 15 championship teams were in the TOP 5. The best MDA could manage was 13th best in the league... Not too shabby, but it is nowhere good enough to give a team a significant chance at the chip.

We need a coach that can propel us to the top 10, and preferably top 7. We stand little chance of winning without it. It is going to take TEAM DEFENSE to do this. One on one defenders are not enough. The whole team needs to know rotations, and how to defend against specific plays.

MDA has never shown that he is capable of this. His substitutions are poor and he'd rather just out score you.

Like I said before. Melo's defense has gotten worse since coming to the Knicks.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
@ rono... I have many of post's on here talking about Charles Smith. Never called him "Anthony before". Been a long time since the Dudley days, not sure why I called him Bill.

Also, just because Mozgov was 7'1... Doesn't mean he was productive. The man was only averaging 2 & 3 or 3 & 4 as a starter. Pathetic for a 7 footer. Our SG Fields rebounds better than that Russian project.

Don't even think about blaming MDA for the loses of Mozgov & Randolph. MDA was against the trade to begin with. So was Walsh. Dolan forced the trade to happen (I'm glad he did too). MDA gave Randolph a chance & he wasn't all that impressive. Mason is now getting minutes & thats a perfect example of a coach not throwing raw bench players into the fire & feeding them to NBA wolves. MDA wasn't the only coach who didn't play Randolph; another good coach did too lol.

If MDA didn't teach D... A rookie in Fields, who MDA loved & gave a chance to since day one; wouldn't play tough D. Same goes for TD. Amare wouldn't be our best big on D.

Here is your sentence:

Shelden is no Anthony Smith & Fields is no Starks who competed with MJ one on one. Mozgov wasn't even Bill Dudley.

Okay?

I'm not mad@ you. Just think if you're going to post on Knicks Forum You should atleast know or be accurate w the names of our former players. That's all..
 
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MusketeerX

Rotation player
@ rono... I have many of post's on here talking about Charles Smith. Never called him "Anthony before". Been a long time since the Dudley days, not sure why I called him Bill.

Also, just because Mozgov was 7'1... Doesn't mean he was productive. The man was only averaging 2 & 3 or 3 & 4 as a starter. Pathetic for a 7 footer. Our SG Fields rebounds better than that Russian project.

Don't even think about blaming MDA for the loses of Mozgov & Randolph. MDA was against the trade to begin with. So was Walsh. Dolan forced the trade to happen (I'm glad he did too). MDA gave Randolph a chance & he wasn't all that impressive. Mason is now getting minutes & thats a perfect example of a coach not throwing raw bench players into the fire & feeding them to NBA wolves. MDA wasn't the only coach who didn't play Randolph; another good coach did too lol.

If MDA didn't teach D... A rookie in Fields, who MDA loved & gave a chance to since day one; wouldn't play tough D. Same goes for TD. Amare wouldn't be our best big on D.

Landry was so good, that even someone as blind as D'Antoni had to recognize it. We were also very weak in the 2 spot, and he was an obvious choice.

And you can't use Mozgov's stats as a good indicator of what kind of player he was. He only got garbage minutes, which ultimately brought down his stats. He hustled and played well when he was on the floor most nights. Besides, you said a center matters.

I'm not blaming D'Antoni for the trade. I do blame him for never playing AR or Mozzie Mozbourne.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Seriously things are changing in the team I don't know if you watch games but there is plenty of defense going on, we're not great at it yet, the team has not enough experience to get everything sorted on either end. Thing is one on one with Stat and Melo is easy offensively, defense teamwork is always required.

We'll get better no doubt. We do need a big guy though we are lacking like 5 RPG as a team so filling that void is important. But can't blame coach that we don't have a big guy right now.

I don't think anyone in their right mind can expect a deep playoff run this year. Getting past the first round would be an achievement.

When we have a complete team, then let's see where we are on the table of top defensive teams.

Smokes, i thought things were starting to change too, but our last few games saw guys put up ridiculous numbers. They are just falling back into old habits. They need a coach that can really discipline their minds around playing D every possession down the floor. They need a coach that can have pace their offense so they are not exhausted by the end of games...

D'Antoni is not that guy.
 
Give MDA & NY a productive big man @ Center; something we haven't had since Ewing & Camby; & our D' becomes much improved. But yet, all of a sudden MDA takes the blame for NY's horrible play down low? Funny. A talented C would help us so much. Especially considering the fact that MDA has 5 starters who weren't with us last year & 3 of those 5 starters have only been here for 10 or less games. All we need is a productive C & time to gel; & NY's D' would improve by leaps & bounds. As it stands, Amare may not be a great defender, but he has NO help from the C position as our PF. Stoudemire is our ONLY talented big that can rebound on the boards & block shots on a consistant basis. But you "expect" us to compete with BOS, CHI, LAL & ORL on D? Not realistic. Dalembert or Jordan would give us a legit Center, a true Big who can box out, distrupt shots, grab boards, block shots, fill lanes, imrpove Amare's overall D & bring respect back to NY's paint for the 1st time in whats been too long.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Ok, so the Suns D ranked 13th in an extremely tough Western Conf one year. Where exactly did PHX rank on D during the other 3 years?

Top 10 is the magic number. The closer you get to the number one spot the greater your chances go up. 78% of the teams were within top 7. 11 of the 15 were in top 5!

He had his team in Phoenix and he showed he can't do it in his system. let's move on to someone else if he is unwilling to go away from his system.

We had an adequate center in Mozgov, who was never used. I want a defensive big, too, and we will get better, but with D'Antoni, as he has shown in Phoenix, it won't be the difference maker.

Not to mention, our team right now is not built for SSOL... yet they've been running it anyways (Memphis, Dallas).
 

Carmare

Banned
Top 10 is the magic number. The closer you get to the number one spot the greater your chances go up. 78% of the teams were within top 7. 11 of the 15 were in top 5!

He had his team in Phoenix and he showed he can't do it in his system. let's move on to someone else if he is unwilling to go away from his system.

We had an adequate center in Mozgov, who was never used. I want a defensive big, too, and we will get better, but with D'Antoni, as he has shown in Phoenix, it won't be the difference maker.

Not to mention, our team right now is not built for SSOL... yet they've been running it anyways (Memphis, Dallas).

I generally agree with everything you've said in this thread, but I wouldn't really call Mozgov an adequate center.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Ok, so the Suns D ranked 13th in an extremely tough Western Conf one year. Where exactly did PHX rank on D during the other 3 years?

2008:
Off Rtg: 113.3 (2nd of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 108.1 (16th of 30)

2007:
Off Rtg: 113.9 (1st of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 106.4 (13th of 30)

2006:
Off Rtg: 111.5 (2nd of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 105.8 (16th of 30)

2005:
Off Rtg: 114.5 (1st of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 107.1 (17th of 30)

Slightly below average each time.

Here are the facts:
  • Only top 10 defensive teams really stand a chance of winning rings (but chances go up the more you get to that number one spot)
  • MDA has never had a top 10 defensive team,
  • MDA has admitted he doesn't care about defense,
  • MDA had an excellent team of his own design for four years that couldn't make the top 10.
Given the above, why should I believe that this man, without a great defensive assistant coach, could make our Knicks team (with admittedly poor individual defenders in Melo and Amar'e) a top ten defensive team?

I have faith Thibs and Popovich can do it. Doc Rivers has proven to be able to put together a top 10 defensive coach (with Thibs help). Phil Jackson has shown he can do it...

MDA never has. What makes you think he can now?
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
I generally agree with everything you've said in this thread, but I wouldn't really call Mozgov an adequate center.

Will agree to disagree with you on that one. He was athletic, had a decent jump shot, could block, accept alley oops and board.

He just needed more playing time. He had a good basketball IQ, too.
 

YungMelo15

Benchwarmer
Props on the stats that were dropped first and foremost.

@knicksfanfromqueens1985 Boston was a team put together in the offseason and won the chip the same season. Do you know why that team won? DEFENSE!!

Even though PHX was in the west, in the playoffs you have to be the best in your conference before you can play the best in the other conference.

Either way, both conferences have to play the other for the ring.

In any sport, it is a KNOWN FACT you cannot win w/o defense.

You dont even have to have the best players on paper to be the best, look at the 04 pistons. Given they had a FEW defensive specialists in ben wallace, prince and lindsey hunter, the entire team played D and they won.

The reason the entire team played D is because the coached PREACHED D.

As long as the leader is great at leading, the pack will provail!
 

PaPZ187

Benchwarmer
2008:
Off Rtg: 113.3 (2nd of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 108.1 (16th of 30)

2007:
Off Rtg: 113.9 (1st of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 106.4 (13th of 30)

2006:
Off Rtg: 111.5 (2nd of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 105.8 (16th of 30)

2005:
Off Rtg: 114.5 (1st of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 107.1 (17th of 30)

Slightly below average each time.

Here are the facts:
  • Only top 10 defensive teams really stand a chance of winning rings (but chances go up the more you get to that number one spot)
  • MDA has never had a top 10 defensive team,
  • MDA has admitted he doesn't care about defense,
  • MDA had an excellent team of his own design for four years that couldn't make the top 10.
Given the above, why should I believe that this man, without a great defensive assistant coach, could make our Knicks team (with admittedly poor individual defenders in Melo and Amar'e) a top ten defensive team?

I have faith Thibs and Popovich can do it. Doc Rivers has proven to be able to put together a top 10 defensive coach (with Thibs help). Phil Jackson has shown he can do it...

MDA never has. What makes you think he can now?

There really isnt a question in having a Top Offense with a middle of the pack D is not the way to go to win a Championship, history will tell you that. The question is can D'Antoni lead a team to atleast Top 10 in Defense to go along with a Top 5 Offense?

So far he hasnt shown that he can from his days in Phx, so as a Knicks fan if he doesnt show some sort of consistent improvement and dedication in this department for the rest of the season/playoffs then I think its time to go in a diffrent direction as far as HC is concerned.
 
You all can continue to compain about MDA 24/7 in whats already been a special season so far. Enjoy.

I'll continue to appreciate & enjoy this new team & season for what it's worth; which is a chance to make the playoffs as a 5 seed; for the 1st time since 04 with a top 3 offensive attack, led by a true veteran leader @ the Point in Billups, to go along with 2 of the NBA's top 5-10 Stars in Carmelo & Amare. I'll also enjoy the overall talents & production of our home grown/young talents in Fields & Douglas. Haven't seed a NYK rookie as solid as Fields since God known when. I'll enjoy NY being relivent once again as a proud Franchise that can possibly make some noise here in the East come playoff time. No one expected NY to win, or even compete for a championship until next year to begin with. Everyone knew we lacked the type of BIG's that could even come close; to being able to match LA, BOS, CHI, ORL, SA etc, etc. Amare, Mozgov, AR, JJ & Turiaf aren't quite Herb, Ewing, Oakley, Mason & Charles Smith.
 

Carmare

Banned
You all can continue to compain about MDA 24/7 in whats already been a special season so far. Enjoy.

I'll continue to appreciate & enjoy this new team & season for what it's worth; which is a chance to make the playoffs as a 5 seed; for the 1st time since 04 with a top 3 offensive attack, led by a true veteran leader @ the Point in Billups, to go along with 2 of the NBA's top 5-10 Stars in Carmelo & Amare. I'll also enjoy the overall talents & production of our home grown/young talents in Fields & Douglas. Haven't seed a NYK rookie as solid as Fields since God known when. I'll enjoy NY being relivent once again as a proud Franchise that can possibly make some noise here in the East come playoff time. No one expected NY to win, or even compete for a championship until next year to begin with. Everyone knew we lacked the type of BIG's that could even come close; to being able to match LA, BOS, CHI, ORL, SA etc, etc. Amare, Mozgov, AR, JJ & Turiaf aren't quite Herb, Ewing, Oakley, Mason & Charles Smith.

If you are unable to enjoy a season and constructively critique your team at the same time then just stay out of threads like this.


It's okay to enjoy a team's success while still discussing what can be done to improve.


Any ounce of negativity is classified as "hate" with you.
 
How can you say "even a blind man such as D'Antoni could see how good Fields is"?

Care to explain how & why he dropped so late into the 2nd round? If "everyone" could "notice'' how solid Fields would become on the boards & both sides of the ball... He would have went top 10 of the 1st if not top 5.

Nice way to approach MDA as head coach though. Blame MDA for "never playing" Mozgov & Randolph but fail to talk about, in a positive light, how he's played unproven young talents such as Fields & Douglas. Even Gallo & Chandler made names for themself here in NY. If MDA played Randolph & Mozgov more often, and kept Fields & Douglas on the bench more... You all would use that as an example to bash MDA without ''praising'' him for plaing Randolph & Mozgov. D'Antoni wasn't the only good head coach who let AR ride the pine. Remember that.

You keep trying to compare & make points how PHX never had top 10 D's. Which players on PHX could Mike D have used to create a top 10 Defense? Please explain.
 
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