Another DFDH must read....I rest my case : Fire This F---ing bum.

nuckles2k2 said:

I get that it's your opinion and everyone is entitled to one, but when we start debating opinions and not really stating why we have that opinion then it's not really a conversation anymore and just people saying words. I know you don't think both players complement each other, but I don't know why. I see Amar'e who's a free-throw line down player, and Melo who's a free-throw line extended player. They can coexist in an offense that puts them in their spots to operate (like the last play in Memphis when Melo is in the high post and STAT comes over and slips the screen and posts his man up near the baseline.) But the offense as it's currently constructed really doesn't utilize both of their talents as effectively as a more traditional offense would. That's why there was word of D'Antoni slowing down the offense with the acquisition of Melo and Billups...but coincidently the only time either player looked like their old selves was their debut against the Bucks when they weren't really running MDA's offense.

It's not like a LBJ and Wade situation where both guys are ball dominant and are primarily penetrators and finishers. STAT uses his athleticism in the paint to get shots up and get to the line, while Melo is an inside-out type of player who can do a bit of it all. Both don't need the ball...one can be ball dominant and the other plays a position where the ball is fed to him...Pau, Dirk, LA, Duncan, etc aren't the players they are because they bring the ball up the court and then go to work....they get to their spots and are fed the ball to do what they do. So there's no reason why Melo and STAT can't play off of each other, we already saw Melo and Martin (when he was relatively healthy) and Melo and Nene the past season and a half. Neither guy is exactly a STAT, but both are paint players while Melo was....Melo.

You can have the opinion that they don't complement each other, and have that be the reason why you don't think the Knicks should have got Melo...but it's not like we haven't seen Melo with bigs who got theirs and put up solid numbers. He got his numbers and so did they...there's enough shots to go around in the right offense.

Oh, and if Donnie feels it more prudent to trade up in this draft and try to get a PG who can learn under Billups next season, and when Billups' $17M comes off the books after next season, we can go shopping then. You're hooked up on the second max we got, but the 3rd max would be the crippling one. $17M might be a worth a little more in terms of talent under the new CBA. If salaries are going down, then you might be able to get a LITTLE more out of $17 million dollars. Plus there's the MLE this offseason (if the MLE survives,) either way...the Knicks still have flexibility going forward. Melo did nothing to disrupt that. We can still end up with "superstar and superstar, plus the supporting cast" which is our best bet. No one is emulating what the Lakers are doing, because no one is going to trade pennies for gold bars.

Melo was never hitting free agency, we had to go get him, and we didn't trade anything that's irreplaceable via the draft and with Billups' expiring. Once we get a coach in here who knows how to maneuver his chess pieces, we'll be straight.

Click to expand...

I disagree. Both Amare and Melo are ball dominant. Hence the Knicks averaging a league low in assists since Melo's arrival. Both players are free throw line in players. Melo is a poor outside shooter and he uses his quickness to get to the line, just like Amare. Both receive the ball at the same spot on the court (around the free throw line or elbow). Both are very lazy defenders and only provide scoring. My opinion is based on more than just words.

The future flexibility you speak of is the real factor here. I personally don't see it but if Donnie is able to build a bench, find a starting Center, a replacement for Billups, and a solid supporting cast that is able to compensate for Melo and Amare's deficiencies (e.g. defense, outside shooting, rebounding, playmaking, etc), then we are in good shape. But I do not have the same optimism as you. We have zero cap space this summer. ZERO. Unless we don't keep Billups, which is a bad choice because Douglas is not good enough to be the permanent starting PG. Even if there is a MLE, I don't see us using it, because it seems like we are trying to preserve cap space for 2012. So the same team we see now is likely to be the same team we have next year, puls/minus a few minor changes. Still not contenders.

I don't see how a team with almost 70% of their cap invested in two players, no assets to speak of, and a more restrictive CBA coming in the future can afford us the flexibility to build around Amare and Melo. To me, there seems to be too many holes and not enough flexiblity to fill them.

Like I said, we didn't have to gut the team for Melo. We could have called his bluff. If he had gone to the Nets, big deal. We still would have been able to build a much better team than the one we will be left with. Melo was not the be-all and end-all for the Knicks. There were much better options than gutting the team for Melo. This wasn't necessary.

But I guess we will find out this summer if it was worth it. If a more restricitve CBA comes out of the negotiations, as predicted by almost everybody, we may be screwed. If we still have the flexibility to build a solid roster, then it was worth it. We'll see.

TR1LL10N said:

Listen all those "excuses" you listed were very valid excuses and that can't be denied. We factually did have a weak roster. We factually did lose chemistry with multiple huge trades. There were factually players on our team with poor or selfish attitudes. That said, I truly believed D'ant was the best coach to guide our young athletic roster prior to the Melo trade. Now that we need to slow it down and play a more half court game since we acquired Melo and Biliups I believe another coach is probably more suited for the task. I don't expect any miracles from a new coach but I do think a half court traditional offense will suit our current roster better. I personally don't think D'ant is gone till after the season regardless of what happens so lets wait and see how he has our team performing in the post season. If we look lost and get dominated then I think it's time to look for a new coach.

P.S. lets give some credit where credit is due. D'ant is getting us into the playoffs and he did develop several young players quite nicely.

Click to expand...

if O'antoni was a good coach.. he should be able to adjust too his new roster... right?....it not just that he cant adjust his offense.. he cant come up with a good defensive strategy either.....my point from day one...

i knew u would come around... u just havent come full circle yet....once this bum is gone.. and all the fact do come out....i would like to hear your excuse then..

the reaon why walsh has not been extending is probably becuz he is backing this prick....if thats the case... as much as I like Donnie... he has got to go to...

LJ4ptplay said:

Like I said, we didn't have to gut the team for Melo. We could have called his bluff. If he had gone to the Nets, big deal. We still would have been able to build a much better team than the one we will be left with. Melo was not the be-all and end-all for the Knicks. There were much better options than gutting the team for Melo. This wasn't necessary.
.

Click to expand...

:whatever:

If you really think Dolan was going to let Walsh call Melo's bluff, I understand what you're saying.

But he didn't ---- Could have, would have, should have..... We WILL see what we're made of in the next season.

DontForgetDerekHarper said:

Its not about whether he is suitable for this or that line up, its the fact that until he emphasizes defense as a primary aspect of our teams focus; there is no way on earth we are ever going to win anything worth being proud of.

The fact remains, he either starts to teach defense, hires an assistant who can, or we fire him and find someone who will.

end of story

why is every one even debating this



our team

does
not


play


defense


and as any winner in the NBA knows

they will tell you the first and foremost thing there coach emphasizes from training camp until they hold that trophy over their head

is


DEEEEEFFFFFEEEENNNNSSSSSEEEEEEE

the debates are nonsensical being that

every one is failing to realize the one big piece that DANTONI

misses

and its


DEEEEEFFFFEEEENNNNSSSSSEEEEE


again

I REST my
CASE.

Click to expand...

No you are wrong, it has everything to do with our roster. Focusing on defense or a slowed down half court offense with an undersized roster built to run, lacking defenders would be disastrous. You play a style that will maximize the players on your ROSTER. Now that we have changed our ROSTER and have the best scoring iso forward in the league and a half court vet in Billiups we will play to our new ROSTERS strengths. Since a half court game will slow down the pace we must now concentrate on acquiring more defenders to COMPLIMENT our core. Prior to the trade our team was built to run and gun and lacked any lock down defenders. The only true defenders (Turiaf and Azubuikie) were injured therefore the Knicks only could win by outscoring the other team and forcing them into our pace. (they are 7-15 when scoring under 100 points and 0-5 when scoring less than 90)

So now that we look to be slowing down the game to accommodate our new core I think another coach would be better. We will still play horrible defense with our current roster and need to upgrade at the center position at least if we think we are going to defend anyone. Focusing on defense will not make up for the lack of DEFENDERS on our ROSTER.

moneyg said:

if O'antoni was a good coach.. he should be able to adjust too his new roster... right?....it not just that he cant adjust his offense.. he cant come up with a good defensive strategy either.....my point from day one...

i knew u would come around... u just havent come full circle yet....once this bum is gone.. and all the fact do come out....i would like to hear your excuse then..

the reaon why walsh has not been extending is probably becuz he is backing this prick....if thats the case... as much as I like Donnie... he has got to go to...

Click to expand...

He has adjusted and thats a fact. The problem is yes, he is not a defensive guru added to the fact that our roster is devoid of defensive players. We have a SF playing center! Amare acts like a matador constantly stepping aside allowing the offense to score. It does not help that he gets himself into foul trouble with avoidable offensive fouls almost every game by running the defense over instead of pulling up for the baby jumper. Do you think D'ant tells Amare to do this? DO you think another coach is going to magically increase Amares decision making on a play to play basis? I doubt it.

That said, I agree that another coach is best suited for this roster so why are you arguing?

platnumn said:

:whatever:

If you really think Dolan was going to let Walsh call Melo's bluff, I understand what you're saying.

But he didn't ---- Could have, would have, should have..... We WILL see what we're made of in the next season.

Click to expand...

Ok. Everything is great. We are on our way to building a championship contender. Getting Melo was the only way to build a contender. Cap space and depth are of no concern whatsoever. It was absolutely necessary and gutting the team for him was the only way to make this team better. Amare and Melo are perfect compliments for one another. There were no other options because Dolan wanted it that way so I must accept it no matter what.

I guess that is what everybody wants me to say. Fine.

TR1LL10N said:

No you are wrong, it has everything to do with our roster. Focusing on defense or a slowed down half court offense with an undersized roster built to run, lacking defenders would be disastrous. You play a style that will maximize the players on your ROSTER. Now that we have changed our ROSTER and have the best scoring iso forward in the league and a half court vet in Billiups we will play to our new ROSTERS strengths. Since a half court game will slow down the pace we must now concentrate on acquiring more defenders to COMPLIMENT our core. Prior to the trade our team was built to run and gun and lacked any lock down defenders. The only true defenders (Turiaf and Azubuikie) were injured therefore the Knicks only could win by outscoring the other team and forcing them into our pace. (they are 7-15 when scoring under 100 points and 0-5 when scoring less than 90)

So now that we look to be slowing down the game to accommodate our new core I think another coach would be better. We will still play horrible defense with our current roster and need to upgrade at the center position at least if we think we are going to defend anyone. Focusing on defense will not make up for the lack of DEFENDERS on our ROSTER.

Click to expand...

What are you talking about

I am talking about the product of a coach for the duration of his career with a multitude of rosters dating back to the suns.

EVery team that he has touched has been destitute on the defensive end of the ball. I understand the possession by possession idea where they shoot more giving the other team more opportunities, but the fact remains down the stretch you cant get out scored 13-7 in a 2 minute span by sub 500 teams and expect to win a title.

I apologize if it sounds like I am disrespecting your reply because I understand roster has alot to do with it, but even when we get the roster of defenders

THIS COACH IS NOT THE MAN TO RUN THE SHOW WHEN THEY GET HERE

the fact is

he is not the coach for what we need.

we need defense, hands down

i dont care about offense, these players will score in any system

I WANT DEFENSE.

DontForgetDerekHarper said:

What are you talking about

I am talking about the product of a coach for the duration of his career with a multitude of rosters dating back to the suns.

EVery team that he has touched has been destitute on the defensive end of the ball. I understand the possession by possession idea where they shoot more giving the other team more opportunities, but the fact remains down the stretch you cant get out scored 13-7 in a 2 minute span by sub 500 teams and expect to win a title.

I apologize if it sounds like I am disrespecting your reply because I understand roster has alot to do with it, but even when we get the roster of defenders

THIS COACH IS NOT THE MAN TO RUN THE SHOW WHEN THEY GET HERE

the fact is

he is not the coach for what we need.

we need defense, hands down

i dont care about offense, these players will score in any system

I WANT DEFENSE.

Click to expand...

Uhm, I have said several times that slowing down our team and focusing on defense will be best suited with another coach.

LJ4ptplay said:

Ok. Everything is great. We are on our way to building a championship contender. Getting Melo was the only way to build a contender. Cap space and depth are of no concern whatsoever. It was absolutely necessary and gutting the team for him was the only way to make this team better. Amare and Melo are perfect compliments for one another. There were no other options because Dolan wanted it that way so I must accept it no matter what.

I guess that is what everybody wants me to say. Fine.

Click to expand...

LOL. Much better :crossfingers:

TR1LL10N said:

Uhm, I have said several times that slowing down our team and focusing on defense will be best suited with another coach.

Click to expand...

wasnt responding to you, was that an agreement trill ? because i completely agree. if we are going to fit the tempo of our personel, as well as implement improved defense, then we have to get a new coach.

having players on offense that are better suited for a slower tempo, means not trying to beat other teams by scoring 117 ppg.

that forces alot of players to take three pointers and then we rely on three points which means if we miss

ooh here goes another opponent fast break again.

if we are going to slow it down, we have to slow it down on both ends.

not just when our starters are on the floor.

the pace of every game is ridiculously un even.

watch tonight.

DontForgetDerekHarper said:

wasnt responding to you, was that an agreement trill ? because i completely agree. if we are going to fit the tempo of our personel, as well as implement improved defense, then we have to get a new coach.

having players on offense that are better suited for a slower tempo, means not trying to beat other teams by scoring 117 ppg.

that forces alot of players to take three pointers and then we rely on three points which means if we miss

ooh here goes another opponent fast break again.

if we are going to slow it down, we have to slow it down on both ends.

not just when our starters are on the floor.

the pace of every game is ridiculously un even.

watch tonight.

Click to expand...

You quoted me...

Yes we are in agreement...shock! In spite of many peoples assertions I am not a "D'ant lover". I Just felt his style was best suited for our roster pre Melo. Now that the roster is changed I don't have a problem changing coaches. I will be very surprised if we start playing anything resembling consistent good defense unless we drastically add to our roster.

Wargames said:

Like I said he isn't a good head coach and not admitting a defensive assistant is needed is just another sign of that. However the Knicks have structural problems that will take until 2012 to fix. the Knicks traded two starters, they're 6th man and a big (Mozgov being in the deal still feels like it was done in spite) for Melo.

So unless they're is a total collapse before this years playoff D'antoni keeps his job until his contract ends next season because Dolan and Donnie know they traded the house for Melo. Add that to all the other issue they had that I mentioned before (including the need for a pass first back-up PG) and you don't want to add finding a new coach to that.

The Knicks took a step back with that trade however give Donnie credit he didn't take any long deals except Balkman so if they're smart they can make some moves to acquire the parts to win. Also who knows maybe the Knicks catch a break get lucky and the new CBA allows them to make more moves as well. Also lets hope the Knicks find a better coach in the 2012 post season.

Click to expand...

D'Antoni is a horrible coach?? His Suns were in the playoffs every year he coached, 50+ wins every year he coached the suns (in the superior west) and was voted coach of the year for the 2004/05 season. His first 3 years with the Knicks were losing season because they were DUMPING CONTRACTS!! You guys are killing him after only 5 weeks with this roster??? He deserves a chance to work with a complete and permanent roster.
Also, many people, including myself, said getting Melo was not the best idea since he was EXACTLY like STAT. They both do not play D and they both hold onto the ball! Everyone was screaming that the Knicks needed to pull the trigger on Melo and now we are seeing what 2 1 dimensional super star players can do to a team! Not to mention the knicks are dreadfully undersized!
For the people crying for Turiaf and Sheldon Williams... Really, they are game changers?? Turiaf is so injury prone and not to mention undersized at the 5. Did I miss something with Sheldon Williams over the past few years were he was a monster in the paint??? How did that get by me? This team is still a work in progress and we have to allow the knicks a little more time to address the couple spots that need upgrades.

Where are we?

I tend to agree with LJ4ptplay's major themes. If Melo really wanted to play for the Knicks, let him have taken the risk of a diminished contract under a new CBA. Why gut the team and lose flexibilty going forward? But neither of us is Dolan and as a result we no longer have Chandler, Felton, Gallinari, Mozgov, or the first round pick we could have gotten for Randolph. If we could not keep them going forward, particularly restricted free agent Chandler, they could be assets for trades for better fits with Melo and Amare'. And with convenient hindsight, if Melo went elsewhere we could have had Deron Williams instead.

But there are no do-overs and we now have two of the best offensive players in basketball. What can we do with them? Well, one of our problems, as LJ4ptplay has observed, is that we have neither cap space nor tradable assets going forward.

In another thread I noted that if we keep Billups, we will have over $61M in countable payroll -- and more than that if we are going to sign Shawne Williams -- next season. Melo and Amare' will make up $39.398M of whatever cap space there is next year. For the following 2013-2014 season their combined total is $43.169M and for 2014-2015 it will be about $47M.

Billups salary for next year, if we pick it up, is $14.2M.

What are we going to use to surround Amare' and Melo with competent players?

Despite leaving us dry at point guard, I think we have to drop Billups and use whatever space we have to get a promising defensive big. Sterling does not like paying players. Perhaps DeAndre Jordan will be available. Do we take a chance and make a run at Oden? Dare I say Thabeet? I believe that Billups' team option contract is a possible trading chip.

As for point guard help, the draft seems deeper in point guards than in promising bigs. Perhaps we can get lucky in the draft and pick up a good point guard.

If we were to keep Billups and his $14.2M contract next year so that it comes off the books in 2013/14, I do not see enough cap space then to make a play for a CP3 or Deron Williams and I fear that a new CBA might include franchise tags or other very significant inducements for prominent players to stay with current teams.

We also need a defensive minded coach or assistant coach and a serious focus on individual and team defense. Thibodeau cannot be the only person capable of coaching defense, but, Lord knows, neither D'Antoni or any member of the current staff appears to know how to do it, or if they do, they do not care to do it.

And the new coach/assistant coach would have to get on Amare' and Melo to become complete players (a) by learning to defend and (b) committing to defense.

Oldtimer said:

I tend to agree with LJ4ptplay's major themes. If Melo really wanted to play for the Knicks, let him have taken the risk of a diminished contract under a new CBA. Why gut the team and lose flexibilty going forward? But neither of us is Dolan and as a result we no longer have Chandler, Felton, Gallinari, Mozgov, or the first round pick we could have gotten for Randolph. If we could not keep them going forward, particularly restricted free agent Chandler, they could be assets for trades for better fits with Melo and Amare'. And with convenient hindsight, if Melo went elsewhere we could have had Deron Williams instead.

But there are no do-overs and we now have two of the best offensive players in basketball. What can we do with them? Well, one of our problems, as LJ4ptplay has observed, is that we have neither cap space nor tradable assets going forward.

In another thread I noted that if we keep Billups, we will have over $61M in countable payroll -- and more than that if we are going to sign Shawne Williams -- next season. Melo and Amare' will make up $39.398M of whatever cap space there is next year. For the following 2013-2014 season their combined total is $43.169M and for 2014-2015 it will be about $47M.

Billups salary for next year, if we pick it up, is $14.2M.

What are we going to use to surround Amare' and Melo with competent players?

Despite leaving us dry at point guard, I think we have to drop Billups and use whatever space we have to get a promising defensive big. Sterling does not like paying players. Perhaps DeAndre Jordan will be available. Do we take a chance and make a run at Oden? Dare I say Thabeet? I believe that Billups' team option contract is a possible trading chip.

As for point guard help, the draft seems deeper in point guards than in promising bigs. Perhaps we can get lucky in the draft and pick up a good point guard.

If we were to keep Billups and his $14.2M contract next year so that it comes off the books in 2013/14, I do not see enough cap space then to make a play for a CP3 or Deron Williams and I fear that a new CBA might include franchise tags or other very significant inducements for prominent players to stay with current teams.

We also need a defensive mindedcoach or assistant coach and a serious focus on individual and team defense. Thibodeau cannot be the only person capable of coaching defense, but, Lord knows, neither D'Antoni or any member of the current staff appears to know how to do it, or if they do, they do not care to do it.

And the new coach/assistant coach would have to get on Amare' and Melo to become complete players (a) by learning to defend and (b) committing to defense.

Click to expand...

If we could have kept Chandler then used him as a sign and trade, that would have been fantastic.

Eh. Melo + Amare vs Wade + Lebron,

The biggest differences, aside from the obvious

Wade and Lebron are between 10 and 100 times the player of either.

They are infinitely "smarter"; and above all, the or ability to facilitate an entire offense, distribute, and change their roles makes Amare/Melo look as flexible and dynamic as Al Jefferson.

Still, Amare and Melo should co-exist fine. They just *require* a legit, rounded supporting cast. And time. Not unlike Lebron and Wade did to an extent. A cast tho, which we won't have, and don't have, less we relinquish Billups asap and bring in one bonefied NBA starting C, power move the drsft for a PG or further complimentary player, and begin mining for a value-buy PG, a la Ridnour, Kyoe Howry, etc.

Also why can MDA sudden go from acceptable to the team to not. Melo is a great MDA player, this was all the talk. And its pretty accurate.

The big change? Billups. Who wont be here after this, or next year max, in all likelihood.

And who knows if MDA even can make this newly reinvented squad work. A dozen games, major changes, amidst the continual MIAs of Turiaf, and the x-factor himself...Billups.

Well said, Oldtmer.

With the recent hike in ticket prices, I often wonder how much influence Dolan had on the trade. It seems, and this is just speculation, that Dolan knew he wanted to raise prices to pay for the MSG upgrades, and getting Melo at all costs was necessary to justify the 49% increase. The deal did not seem like Donnie at all. Donnie has shown amazing patience with a great poker face. To suddenly panic like that doesn't fit his modus operandi.

Ultimately it seems like Dolan made the deal, and made it for his own gain, without thinking of the potential consequences. Will Dolan, and us Knick fans, luck out with a CBA that allows us flexibility to build around Amare and Melo? Or will Dolan's meddling and the curse of the Knicks stay true and we're stuck with a perennial 5th seed and early playoff exit (essentially the Atlanta Hawks 2.0)?

The verdict is still out and won't be determined until this summer.

LJ4ptplay said:

Well said, Oldtmer.

With the recent hike in ticket prices, I often wonder how much influence Dolan had on the trade. It seems, and this is just speculation, that Dolan knew he wanted to raise prices to pay for the MSG upgrades, and getting Melo at all costs was necessary to justify the 49% increase. The deal did not seem like Donnie at all. Donnie has shown amazing patience with a great poker face. To suddenly panic like that doesn't fit his modus operandi.

Ultimately it seems like Dolan made the deal, and made it for his own gain, without thinking of the potential consequences. Will Dolan, and us Knick fans, luck out with a CBA that allows us flexibility to build around Amare and Melo? Or will Dolan's meddling and the curse of the Knicks stay true and we're stuck with a perennial 5th seed and early playoff exit (essentially the Atlanta Hawks 2.0)?

The verdict is still out and won't be determined until this summer.

Click to expand...

Co-sign. 100x to this.

This wasn't Walsh at all. Would Walsh renege in multiple "ultimatums" within a 48h period? Cmon.....That stinks of a rank ass, bitch of an erratic, emotional businessmen and decisions getting over-ridden.

Also, Walsh's plan...wasn't to make us Hawks 2.0, or even the Magic (especially pre-recent trade).

It was to make a contender. A bonefied, true contender -- with a fluid plan for the present, future, and future of the future.

Basically, a top franchise that has a rock solid foundation and vision to springboard from.

Walsh = continual progress while eliminating the superfluous and unknowns and wild cards (even if those things, or players, in themselves aren't bad), and the flexibility to powermove in ideal situations (aka past year/offseason, the upcoming off season, and the one following).

The ability to make in-season deals for these guys (a good thing) really shouldn't be, and I suspect wasn't supposed to be, this big titted 10 we were supposed to grovel for and come at from a position of inherent weakness.

Walsh wheels over to the 10s while they are working at the club, and they either come or they don't, and just come later when 'unemployed'; Dolan stumbles over, wax dripping from his facial hair, and smiles like Bozo whole flailing his wallet at them; only to still likely fail, or just get robbed after a 1 night stand.

I can't imagine Walsh wasn't aware of the Deron situation, either. Especially with all the reports and logical behind he -- and MDA -- considering him the absolute best PG in the world.

Incidentally, Deron's biggest beefs with Sloan would incidentally be the thing he'd absolutely love with MDA, too.

Neither here nor there -- we still have some sick players, three keepers (Fields, Melo, Amare), a couple semi-keepers for the bench (Douglas, Williams, Turiaf). Everything else must be filled, even if it means dropping the superfluous, yet in themselves fine players (eg Billups).

TR1LL10N said:

That said, I agree that another coach is best suited for this roster so why are you arguing?

Click to expand...

Owww... I think I just found a new sig.lol

TR1LL10N said:

Uhm, I have said several times that slowing down our team and focusing on defense will be best suited with another coach.

Click to expand...

Sounds just as good the 2nd time around!

Oldtimer said:

I tend to agree with LJ4ptplay's major themes. If Melo really wanted to play for the Knicks, let him have taken the risk of a diminished contract under a new CBA. Why gut the team and lose flexibilty going forward? But neither of us is Dolan and as a result we no longer have Chandler, Felton, Gallinari, Mozgov, or the first round pick we could have gotten for Randolph. If we could not keep them going forward, particularly restricted free agent Chandler, they could be assets for trades for better fits with Melo and Amare'. And with convenient hindsight, if Melo went elsewhere we could have had Deron Williams instead.

But there are no do-overs and we now have two of the best offensive players in basketball. What can we do with them? Well, one of our problems, as LJ4ptplay has observed, is that we have neither cap space nor tradable assets going forward.

In another thread I noted that if we keep Billups, we will have over $61M in countable payroll -- and more than that if we are going to sign Shawne Williams -- next season. Melo and Amare' will make up $39.398M of whatever cap space there is next year. For the following 2013-2014 season their combined total is $43.169M and for 2014-2015 it will be about $47M.

Billups salary for next year, if we pick it up, is $14.2M.

What are we going to use to surround Amare' and Melo with competent players?

Despite leaving us dry at point guard, I think we have to drop Billups and use whatever space we have to get a promising defensive big. Sterling does not like paying players. Perhaps DeAndre Jordan will be available. Do we take a chance and make a run at Oden? Dare I say Thabeet? I believe that Billups' team option contract is a possible trading chip.

As for point guard help, the draft seems deeper in point guards than in promising bigs. Perhaps we can get lucky in the draft and pick up a good point guard.

If we were to keep Billups and his $14.2M contract next year so that it comes off the books in 2013/14, I do not see enough cap space then to make a play for a CP3 or Deron Williams and I fear that a new CBA might include franchise tags or other very significant inducements for prominent players to stay with current teams.

We also need a defensive minded coach or assistant coach and a serious focus on individual and team defense. Thibodeau cannot be the only person capable of coaching defense, but, Lord knows, neither D'Antoni or any member of the current staff appears to know how to do it, or if they do, they do not care to do it.

And the new coach/assistant coach would have to get on Amare' and Melo to become complete players (a) by learning to defend and (b) committing to defense.

Click to expand...

I get your point OT. You are forecasting based on future projections of the new CBA and our current contracts, makes sense. Please consider the following:

Would you hire a chef who's specialty is Asian cuisine for your Italian themed restaurant? Would you pre-order lo-mein noodles knowing that's what he likes, thinking he could work with it and make them taste like Fettucini?

Well the fish rots from the head down, and although Dolan is at the top, excluding him, its on Donnie or a GM to put a team together in a mold that's fitting for him.

Donnie knows ball, he understands the roles of size, speed, and stars. He should have a plan for this team short and long term.

To rid the team of bloated unearned player contracts was phase 1. Acquiring cheaper, younger, and better (what I term as the simple formula) players is phase 2, ala ordering those wholesale foods for his chef.

But this chef DOESN'T really fit. What I am saying or asking is: WHY ARE YOU OR LJ OR ANYONE continually speculating what and who might work in this system when it doesn't fit what the plan should be?

Listen to yourselves... Jordan would be a beast, we needed Rubio a year ago, Billups is too much money, we should use for a big, we needed Nash to make it work, we needed this, we should get that...

But really the head (Donnie ) hasn't wholeheartedly, directly said exactly what his approach and model is. He has mentioned defense, mentioned 2 way players, and his actions indicate something, but really I'm getting the impresson it was about Lebron as if he was the savior.

Simply stated, when will all the MDA supporters/fans realize the issues of not being where we want stemmed from the chef himself? Besides that is secondary, what's of primary concern is we hired an offensive coach, traded away potential size and defenders, and drafted poorly for what? To miraculously accomplish signing the few a far between ultimate 2 way players that produce regardless of coaching... really... that was the plan? Are you saying IF you began with a defensive model the decions made wouldn't have been different? I think so.

Now onto Melo and Stat. Sorry for beating a dead horse but... Darko, Hill, And Randolph were thought to be ineffective, then were servicible in another system. Lee, Zack Randolph, were of no use to coach and in Lees case wasn't worth the $, and while I felt an upgrade was warranted that incuded defense, after witnessing coach, I realize, he too was of use, especially given the pieces we got.

Almost every move or non move indicates something to me. When players are DNP'd then flourish under a new coach, MDA gets downgraded IMO. When stars are acquired and the same results are apparent, MDA gets downgraded. When we all are still starved and covet these special players who will (I guess) take us over the top, after getting 2max's, after I realize other coaches have done MORE with LESS, MDA gets downgraded.

Not to insult, but I equate this fixation on who we need in order to succeed two years down the road to engaging in substance abuser mindsets. We need that fix of another addition, until that high wears out, then we covet more, and more. Not realizing we are rooting for a change more than the current product, because we go to battle thinking we already lost.

Coach can't succeed without A,B, or C. Smh... so when I see another coach achieve with less- what's that?

Are you telling me there's no coach that can utilize Amare and Melo? Wow!

Their styles are the same? Really? I think you mean IN THIS SYSTEM THEY LOOK SIMILAR, but they ain't the same. This system is designed without a superstar in mind. Its designed not only to be ad-libbed, but to get "easier" shots for those who can't on their own. Note not every coach can handle stars.

You think holding the ball is bad... I would say look at the MJ bulls, and tell me at times the ball movement slowed, but they won. While we are examining ball movement, player reluctance, laziness, poor Iq's, being aloof, slowness, the right fit for this and that...

I'm wondering why you got a Chinese Cuisine chef working in my Italian restaurant? Let's start with that THEN worry about what foods to order. Let's stop putting the cart before the horse, who knows maybe, no definitly, a better coach will have more than enough to work with.

And remember, coach is partly (mostly) responsible for us not having a big. So no talk about imcomplete rosters please. We needed a big BEFORE we even hired MDA, recall?

And we got a big that he wanted, that fit HIS mold... his name is Danilo Gallinari, aka the drunken monk. Fail.

iSaYughh said:

Eh. Melo + Amare vs Wade + Lebron,

The biggest differences, aside from the obvious

Wade and Lebron are between 10 and 100 times the player of either.

They are infinitely "smarter"; and above all, the or ability to facilitate an entire offense, distribute, and change their roles makes Amare/Melo look as flexible and dynamic as Al Jefferson.

Still, Amare and Melo should co-exist fine. They just *require* a legit, rounded supporting cast. And time. Not unlike Lebron and Wade did to an extent. A cast tho, which we won't have, and don't have, less we relinquish Billups asap and bring in one bonefied NBA starting C, power move the drsft for a PG or further complimentary player, and begin mining for a value-buy PG, a la Ridnour, Kyoe Howry, etc.

Also why can MDA sudden go from acceptable to the team to not. Melo is a great MDA player, this was all the talk. And its pretty accurate.

The big change? Billups. Who wont be here after this, or next year max, in all likelihood.

And who knows if MDA even can make this newly reinvented squad work. A dozen games, major changes, amidst the continual MIAs of Turiaf, and the x-factor himself...Billups.

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I have to disagree with your first point. Lebron/Wade are not 10-100 times better than Amare/Melo, they are just different players.

Neither Lebron or Wade play well off the ball, they are slowly learning it in Miami. Amare and Melo can both be effective without the ball.

I'm not sure what your definition of "smarter" is. The fact that they can both play distributor or something? Sure they are decent players but is it "smart" for Lebron to try and take game tying/winning 3's when everyone knows he can't hit a 3 ball to save his life? Is it "smart" for DWade to play help defense on Derrick Rose when Lebron has him covered and leave Deng wide open for a game winning shot?

The fact is anytime when you get 2 superstar players no matter who they are they will need time to adjust, compromise and learn to play together effectively. It was the same for Kobe and Shaq, Duncan and Robinson, Wade and Shaq, and now Lebron and Wade + Amare and Melo.

I am sure Amare and Melo will become an extremely effective duo on the offensive end what they/we need is a constant, reliable distributor to allow them to have the ball at the right time in the right place.

Your other point is spot on, we need a supporting cast. Look at Miami, even though their bigs and PG's are not top quality the fact is they at least have a quick PG with decent passing ability and defense, and a large rotation of big guys who can at least rebound/alter shots occasionally.

Still, Miami is a long long way from a finished product anyway, even with their 60+ games to adjust/gel and plenty of additions this year, their bench is the worst in the league (?) in terms of scoring and basically Miami IS the Lebron/Wade (and to a lesser extent) Bosh show... Would you trust ANY of Miami's other players to win a game for you like Derek Fisher won a world championship for the Lakers?

smokes said:

I have to disagree with your first point. Lebron/Wade are not 10-100 times better than Amare/Melo, they are just different players.

Neither Lebron or Wade play well off the ball, they are slowly learning it in Miami. Amare and Melo can both be effective without the ball.

I'm not sure what your definition of "smarter" is. The fact that they can both play distributor or something? Sure they are decent players but is it "smart" for Lebron to try and take game tying/winning 3's when everyone knows he can't hit a 3 ball to save his life? Is it "smart" for DWade to play help defense on Derrick Rose when Lebron has him covered and leave Deng wide open for a game winning shot?

The fact is anytime when you get 2 superstar players no matter who they are they will need time to adjust, compromise and learn to play together effectively. It was the same for Kobe and Shaq, Duncan and Robinson, Wade and Shaq, and now Lebron and Wade + Amare and Melo.

I am sure Amare and Melo will become an extremely effective duo on the offensive end what they/we need is a constant, reliable distributor to allow them to have the ball at the right time in the right place.

Your other point is spot on, we need a supporting cast. Look at Miami, even though their bigs and PG's are not top quality the fact is they at least have a quick PG with decent passing ability and defense, and a large rotation of big guys who can at least rebound/alter shots occasionally.

Still, Miami is a long long way from a finished product anyway, even with their 60+ games to adjust/gel and plenty of additions this year, their bench is the worst in the league (?) in terms of scoring and basically Miami IS the Lebron/Wade (and to a lesser extent) Bosh show... Would you trust ANY of Miami's other players to win a game for you like Derek Fisher won a world championship for the Lakers?

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Forget how much better Wade/Lebron may be (my 10-100x was a bad exaggeration).

They both are so much more versatile, especially in passing..and *defense*, that the issues of having two ("similar") superstars together, is an easier pill to swallow.

Building the necessary cast around them will be easier than for us, i'd contend. Both in the quality of players needed, and really, that itl be easier for them to find the right guys.

Wade and LBJ *have* played foolishly this season. But I see that more as a non-typical bball "IQ" issue. When you watch LBJ play in his seasons with Cavs, this guy was their floor general, team leader, and dominant scorer game in game out. Wade's past resume speaks for itself too.

They are smart bball players. I think Melo is too, fwiw. Nobody is immune to bad runs of bad decisions, especially in a newly pressurized system; but I don't think Amare has their level of "on court intelligence".

I don't want to slag either of our guys, bc the most fundamental thing we see -- they need time, like any, and they need a legit foundation of a supporting team. Before really making any judgements on their ineffectiveness together.

And Amare+Melo can be total dominance. IMO, our plan should be:

PG -- who will be here for years, range, smart
C -- rebounding, size, defense
Everyone Else -- role players, defensive specialties, athletic

If we let go of Billups, I don't see why we can't achieve at least 2 of these three, and make progress on the 3rd by the start of next season.

(re: MIA, still gotta sat their truly insanely poor ability to close games out to date, and LBJ/Wade's final shot or game winning shots %....is the reason they aren't an essay 60+ win team this season. Even if they shot like shit in these clutch spots, they'd be an easy 60+ win team. They are just shooting at an almost unfathomable bad level. Maybe they are that bad when together tho in these pressurized spots...)