Slow your roll (My Rant, beatches)

S

shaolin

Benchwarmer
Yes, the Knicks are in the playoffs. Yes, they locked up the sixth seed after missing the playoffs for six straight seasons. Yes, they can potentially "scare" the aging Celtics and possibly advance to the second round.

BUT

Why do we, as Knicks fans, want this? I'm a realist. I know that the Knicks roster, as we have it now, is never going to contend for a championship. Even a few upgrades won't really improve our chances much. We'll have to compete with the likes of Miami, Chicago and Orlando to a lesser extent. If the Knicks advance to the second round or if the Knicks impress many in a first round lost to the Celts, what is the possible outcome? We get to keep D'Antoni. I have nothing against the guy, personally that is. What I do have against him is that I just do not buy into his system. I think he is a very skilled and knowledgeable offensive coach. Let's be real. Whoever thinks otherwise, please put down the ganja. He does well with spacing to give shooters good looks and slashers open lanes. He utilizes the high post well and he has a system that works well for SPECIFIC type players (shooters, small team that get destroyed in the low post and on the boards) Historically, he doesn't use tough, low post threats (if they can't shoot anything outside of 12 feet (Shaq is the only exception, I guess).

If the Knicks underperform and easily look outmatched, well, that does not reflect well on D'Antoni. I fully support the "let's get Jerry Sloan" campaign. I believe coach Sloan has expressed interest in coaching again. Why not the Knicks?

What do I like Jerry Sloan?

1. He is FAR BETTER than D'Antoni. So, we get an instant upgrade

2. Accountability. He is so skilled at holding his players accountable, and they usually respond. Think of many of the Utah Jazz players that have played POORLY on other teams, but excelled with him. He gets a lot out of his players. Granted, he did have good role players and some superstars. I think he will scout and sign a few tough inside players, something the Knicks have lacked - a tough team.

3. He will not sign players because of their ability to shoot 7 threes a game. I am sick of the Knicks shooting 30 to 40+ threes a game.

4. When he calls out a player, you feel it. When D'Antoni calls out a player, he sounds weak. Jerry Sloan is what the Knicks need.
 
S

shaolin

Benchwarmer
The Knicks have two top 10-12 players in the league. Making the playoffs was a realistic expectation. Just making it shouldn't necessarily mean that D'Antoni's job is safe. The Knicks have to do decent. I think they will, but just saying, if they don't, I think D'Antoni should be on the hot seat. I hope Walsh at least entertains moving in a different direction.
 
AmareForPresident

AmareForPresident

Starter
shaolin said:
The Knicks have two top 10-12 players in the league. Making the playoffs was a realistic expectation. Just making it shouldn't necessarily mean that D'Antoni's job is safe. The Knicks have to do decent. I think they will, but just saying, if they don't, I think D'Antoni should be on the hot seat. I hope Walsh at least entertains moving in a different direction.
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Dude what do you expect with Dolan as our owner? Do you actually think he would get a better coach? and who knows if Donnie is even staying.I don't really like MDA but i gave up wanting to fire him after remembering that Dolan is our owner.
 
Wargames

Wargames

Starter
Hey I agree dude has problem but I'll say his job is about 90% assured at this point . We made the playoffs and regained the 6th seed. He has so far figured out how to make amare/Melo work offensively and has arguably improved Melo's game by making him a 3pt threat.

He still has all his old coaching flaws but he has publicly paid lip service to fixing all of the defensive issues that the media and the fans have called him out on. So with that said he is gonna be here next year unless we get swept and even then I can see him keeping his job due to all the roster weakness the current team had.

So let's forget about this issue right now and enjoy the fact that the Knicks accomplished all their season goals by getting two stars and getting in the playoffs this year.
 
K

KBlack25

Starter
Yep. Let's get Jerry Sloan.

Let's also get D12, Kobe, LeBron, and let's invent a time machine to recreate Michael Jordan circa 1992 and get him too.
 
I

iJoe

Rotation player
KBlack25 said:
Yep. Let's get Jerry Sloan.

Let's also get D12, Kobe, LeBron, and let's invent a time machine to recreate Michael Jordan circa 1992 and get him too.
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haha yes. Realism doesn't seem the be the theme of this thread :teeth:

Why not ask for Phil Jackson and Dwight Howard too?

I hate how so many guys on the forums say that Dantoni hates big men. When the hell has he ever had an actual big to play with?

There are a LOT of teams in the NBA that are in need of quality big men. We're not an exception. Dantoni would salivate at the thought of getting Dwight Howard.

I've said this once and I'll say it as many times as I have to. Dantoni has not proven to be a good big man coach, but he's also never had the opportunity to coach a quality big. Thus, it remains a question mark.

I don't even like Dantoni, but I won't accuse him of every single thing wrong with this franchise.
 
S

shaolin

Benchwarmer
iJoe said:
haha yes. Realism doesn't seem the be the theme of this thread :teeth:

Why not ask for Phil Jackson and Dwight Howard too?

I hate how so many guys on the forums say that Dantoni hates big men. When the hell has he ever had an actual big to play with?

There are a LOT of teams in the NBA that are in need of quality big men. We're not an exception. Dantoni would salivate at the thought of getting Dwight Howard.

I've said this once and I'll say it as many times as I have to. Dantoni has not proven to be a good big man coach, but he's also never had the opportunity to coach a quality big. Thus, it remains a question mark.

I don't even like Dantoni, but I won't accuse him of every single thing wrong with this franchise.
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I hear you. But, if you could trade half your quality team for one available superstar, you'd do it, right? The Knicks already did that. They traded three quality players including a solid point guard (Gallo, Chandler, Felton), a freakish athlete in Randolph and a promising center for Melo (and Billups).

It's like trading D'Antoni for an excellent coach that is available. Let's say I agree with your assertion that his ability to use a legit center in his system is a question mark. Why not change that question mark into more of a certainty and get someone who has coached drastically different teams in his 32 years of coaching. He looks for a variety of ways to win and will not turn Melo into a player who shoots 7 to 13 threes a game.
 
Crazy⑧s

Crazy⑧s

Evacuee
Re the fact that we won't win a championship, we weren't in any way attempting to, were we? Not in any realistic sense.

For this team to set its sights beyond the next game and the first series isn't being realistic. Neither is to set our sights ahead of our team.
 
I

iJoe

Rotation player
shaolin said:
I hear you. But, if you could trade half your quality team for one available superstar, you'd do it, right? The Knicks already did that. They traded three quality players including a solid point guard (Gallo, Chandler, Felton), a freakish athlete in Randolph and a promising center for Melo (and Billups).

It's like trading D'Antoni for an excellent coach that is available. Let's say I agree with your assertion that his ability to use a legit center in his system is a question mark. Why not change that question mark into more of a certainty and get someone who has coached drastically different teams in his 32 years of coaching. He looks for a variety of ways to win and will not turn Melo into a player who shoots 7 to 13 threes a game.
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Like trading D'Antoni for an excellent coach that is available? If there was an excellent coach that really was available, I'd be all for it, but the truth is that there isn't. The likelihood that Sloan would be willing to leave Utah for a big city is almost next to nothing.

Right now there really aren't any available proven coaches. The only decent one coming up next year is probably Rick Adelman and he may resign with the Rockets.

There aren't a lot of choices and I'm definitely not comfortable handing the coaching reins to someone with no experience (oh god please not Mark Jackson) or even a college coach. College ball is a completely different game and its been proven that College coaches don't do so well when they transition to NBA ball.

We can complain all we want about how we want someone better at every position. Personally I'd want Dolan out before anyone.... Unfortunately, we have to follow the rules every NBA team does and its not easy to find REALISTIC ways to improve.
 
NYallDay

NYallDay

Benchwarmer
agree. plus im not so sure i want a jerry sloan as a coach. he seems way to old school. aside from the defense i think he'll be the opposite of dantoni, then we'll be created threads on why we arent taking more 3pts or why we're always having set drawn up plays when we have melo and stat 2 of the best iso players in the game. remember he got into it with DWill cuz he wanted to run some specific play DWill ran something else, so i dont see how Jerry Sloan is the answer. i think now that we have melo and stat for the long term, we need the right coach for the right system.

speaking of coach, can anyone tell me when did Doc Rivers become such a good coach. if you remember there were a couple of years people in boston were calling for this guys head, but now i think he would be the perfect coach for the knicks. he holds people accountable, he gives the stars their respect but also demands it and he doesnt let people take plays off (or all these things happening cuz of Garnett? )
 
S

shaolin

Benchwarmer
KBlack25 said:
The point is:

It is really easy and kind of intellectually vapid to make an "argument" that we should get someone much better than what we have currently (at any position).
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Then what’s the point of the GM – to manage all levels of operations of the NY Knicks on a going-forward basis. Meaning, how can we improve as an organization and as a basketball team (increase revenue, decrease expenses, thereby increase net income and improve the Knicks as a product by improving the roster, quality of play, etc)? Right? When the Knicks’ value increases, it means that their future outlook is positive. You always look to improve the future, at least relative to the competition. And when opportunity comes knocking, you grab opportunity by the throat (metaphorically speaking, of course)

Sorry, I just don’t see your point at all.
 
S

shaolin

Benchwarmer
iJoe said:
Like trading D'Antoni for an excellent coach that is available? If there was an excellent coach that really was available, I'd be all for it, but the truth is that there isn't. The likelihood that Sloan would be willing to leave Utah for a big city is almost next to nothing.

Right now there really aren't any available proven coaches. The only decent one coming up next year is probably Rick Adelman and he may resign with the Rockets.

There aren't a lot of choices and I'm definitely not comfortable handing the coaching reins to someone with no experience (oh god please not Mark Jackson) or even a college coach. College ball is a completely different game and its been proven that College coaches don't do so well when they transition to NBA ball.

We can complain all we want about how we want someone better at every position. Personally I'd want Dolan out before anyone.... Unfortunately, we have to follow the rules every NBA team does and its not easy to find REALISTIC ways to improve.
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Jerry Sloan coached the Chicago Bulls for 8 or 9 seasons before his 23 years in Utah. Chicago is considered by many to be one of the three first-tier US cities (NY and LA being the others). If he doesn’t want to coach NY, then fine. But you are so quick to conclude that he isn’t a realistic option. Why not? My point is simple. He is jobless right now. I heard by more than one source that he wants to coach again, meaning that he must be considering many options outside Utah, right? He spent over 30 years as a head coach, and this is what he does great. He is as versatile a coach as there is right now. How? He had teams that were big and slow (Mark Eaton anyone?). Those teams played excellent half-court offenses. He played a more open style half-court approach with more three point shooting. He isn’t opposed to centers shooting the three if they can. Point is, Sloan has shown he is able to incorporate many different styles and gets his players to play tough because he is tough on his players.

I think getting Sloan is a far more realistic option than getting rid of Dolan. Let’s not kid ourselves. Who doesn’t want that joke of an owner out? But, I know that aint happening, unless someone is willing to overpay for the Knicks, Rangers and Liberty. I’m guessing the asking price would be 5-10% over Cablevision’s market value. That’s got to be at least $900 million. Also, league approval and legal implications could take that dream of a transaction months, if not a year or so. As long as Dolan doesn’t hurt the franchise, then he is doing his job. I’m more concerned with people that can immediately impact the Knicks, and that would be the coach and the GM. I really like Walsh. I am just not too crazy about D’Antoni.

The Knicks shot over 30 threes last night and got outrebounded by 18. As much as I like the 4-out 1-in offense that D’Antoni seems to be in love with, it’s not a winning strategy in the NBA. It works in Euro-leagues because many PFs play in the perimeter and can shoot. In the NBA, there are big, quick PFs that can guard smaller PFs in the perimeter, but can rebound and that’s where we get killed. This problem is beyond personnel, or lack thereof.

I’m not talking about improving many of our players, that will come in time. I’m talking about a way to improve the quality of play immediately. Just my opinion.
 
K

KBlack25

Starter
shaolin said:
Then what’s the point of the GM – to manage all levels of operations of the NY Knicks on a going-forward basis. Meaning, how can we improve as an organization and as a basketball team (increase revenue, decrease expenses, thereby increase net income and improve the Knicks as a product by improving the roster, quality of play, etc)? Right? When the Knicks’ value increases, it means that their future outlook is positive. You always look to improve the future, at least relative to the competition. And when opportunity comes knocking, you grab opportunity by the throat (metaphorically speaking, of course)

Sorry, I just don’t see your point at all.
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The point is making an "argument" that we should improve our team is not an argument.

Everyone agrees the team should be improved to the best possibility. Everyone agrees that Sloan is a legend and a great coach. This is an intellectually vapid argument that takes us much originality and brain power as saying we "should" get a better center and we "should" improve problem spots. To say we "should" try to improve (as opposed to why we have to improve certain areas) is not an interesting or engaging argument.
 
R

Real NY Baller

Starter
It's playoff BBall now. Coaching is going to be a very big part of the game. A series involves adjustments and tactics that will expose the other teams weaknesses. I'm not so sure our coach has that chess mentality. He is very predictable.
 
K

KBlack25

Starter
Real NY Baller said:
It's playoff BBall now. Coaching is going to be a very big part of the game. A series involves adjustments and tactics that will expose the other teams weaknesses. I'm not so sure our coach has that chess mentality. He is very predictable.
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We will see.

The defense has been better recently. Not saying MDA is doing it...but SOMEONE on the coaching staff is creating better defensive plays/systems/aggression.
 
R

Real NY Baller

Starter
KBlack25 said:
We will see.

The defense has been better recently. Not saying MDA is doing it...but SOMEONE on the coaching staff is creating better defensive plays/systems/aggression.
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As Bart Scott said "Can't wait!"

IMO, I think it's the teams collective effort, I doubt if it was much of anything else because they are still running the same defensive sets, which is evident in their poor positioning. The intensity did pick up thou. can't complain there...
 
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