Nixon7's Roadmap

nixon7

Benchwarmer
Forget pursuing Marc Gasol or DeAndre Jordan (as much as I like them) for too much money.

I would concentrate on trading a player for a late first round draft pick. Everyone is expendable in this regard except Stat, Melo, Billups, and Fields.

Then I would pick Kenneth Faried at #17 and Lucas Noguiera at #20-something.

Then I would sign Dalembert for the MLE, preferably only a one or two year deal. I would bring Jerome Jordan back from Europe and now you have four bigs with rebounding, shot blocking, and defensive ability (one veteran, three young projects). For very little money.

Sign a veteran point guard who is a distributor and defender, but not a scorer, for the veteran's minimum. Maybe Shawn Williams and Anthony Carter also at veteran's minimum, or the equivalent role players out there.

Then trade Billups and Dalembert (before, at, or after the trade deadline next Spring) for Chris Paul and Okafor. You probably need to add a solid role player or two (possibly including one of the young bigs) into the deal, but I do not care who at that point.

You end up with:

C E Okafor
PF A Stoudamire
SF C Anthony
SG L Fields
PG C Paul

as your starting five, with some young defensive bigs and veteran backcourt backups.

Does ANYONE have a problem with that?
 

nixon7

Benchwarmer
So what?

> Okafor is making 72 million

So what? I am not jumping for joy at taking Okafor. I prefer Noguiera in the long-run, and Dalembert in the short-run.

However, we are not getting Chris Paul for nothing, so I expect we need to take Okafor back. If we can swing Okafor going to some other team in a three-way, I would not be crying. However, we would need two of Jordan, Faried, or Noguiera to develop more quickly than I expect, or pick up another veteran big if Okafor goes somewhere else.

Of course, maybe you are saying that we would have problems making the deal work because Billups and Dalembert would be making too little money coming back.

That is difficult to figure out now (until the new CBA), but I assumed there would be Knick throw-ins of some good role players with mid-level contracts. I am also assuming that the new CBA would have to have some major trade exceptions, to deal with all the grandfathered contracts on the old wage scale.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
Forget pursuing Marc Gasol or DeAndre Jordan (as much as I like them) for too much money.

I would concentrate on trading a player for a late first round draft pick. Everyone is expendable in this regard except Stat, Melo, Billups, and Fields.

Then I would pick Kenneth Faried at #17 and Lucas Noguiera at #20-something.

Then I would sign Dalembert for the MLE, preferably only a one or two year deal. I would bring Jerome Jordan back from Europe and now you have four bigs with rebounding, shot blocking, and defensive ability (one veteran, three young projects). For very little money.

Sign a veteran point guard who is a distributor and defender, but not a scorer, for the veteran's minimum. Maybe Shawn Williams and Anthony Carter also at veteran's minimum, or the equivalent role players out there.

Then trade Billups and Dalembert (before, at, or after the trade deadline next Spring) for Chris Paul and Okafor. You probably need to add a solid role player or two (possibly including one of the young bigs) into the deal, but I do not care who at that point.

You end up with:

C E Okafor
PF A Stoudamire
SF C Anthony
SG L Fields
PG C Paul

as your starting five, with some young defensive bigs and veteran backcourt backups.

Does ANYONE have a problem with that?

I don't.

Nobody in their right mind should..

That core combined w Fields presumed growth and some quality young bigs will be a joy to watch and nightmare for opposing teams to face.
 

RunningJumper

Super Moderator
> Okafor is making 72 million

So what? I am not jumping for joy at taking Okafor. I prefer Noguiera in the long-run, and Dalembert in the short-run.

However, we are not getting Chris Paul for nothing, so I expect we need to take Okafor back. If we can swing Okafor going to some other team in a three-way, I would not be crying. However, we would need two of Jordan, Faried, or Noguiera to develop more quickly than I expect, or pick up another veteran big if Okafor goes somewhere else.

Of course, maybe you are saying that we would have problems making the deal work because Billups and Dalembert would be making too little money coming back.

That is difficult to figure out now (until the new CBA), but I assumed there would be Knick throw-ins of some good role players with mid-level contracts. I am also assuming that the new CBA would have to have some major trade exceptions, to deal with all the grandfathered contracts on the old wage scale.
We wouldn't be able to afford Okafor with three max contracts. If that was the case we'd probably still have Lee.
 

nixon7

Benchwarmer
On second thought

Or maybe you are saying that we should take Marc Gasol or DeAndre Jordan at any price because we will end up trading them for Okafor and so we need a larger contract and a more attractive player.

There is some logic to that scenario, but some major risks as well; should the Chris Paul / Emeka Okafor deal fail for some other reason.

If you plan to get a more expensive big then you would presumably draft a guard this year. I would be willing to do that if I had a lottery pick, or as the #20-something pick if we trade for a second pick this year. But I would not want to walk away from this draft without at least one of Faried or Noguiera; and not a top point guard prospect either.

Dalembert is probably going to be making 3-5 million as well as Turiaf at 4 million. That seems like enough base salary to swing a deal with the Hornets for CP3 and Okafor.
 
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nixon7

Benchwarmer
Hard cap not on the table

You seem to be implying a hard cap. If the new CBA has a hard cap, they would have to break up the Heat and Lakers. Not going to happen.

Under a soft cap, we can have three max contracts and Okafor, so long as we stay within the differential on the trade numbers. Chris Paul and Billups have close to identical contracts. At the trade deadline that is all that matters. In the summer of 2012, they could continue to match on the mutual sign-and-trades, whatever the new (reduced) max contract is, but that might not even be necessary if Chris Paul does not opt out. He only needs to threaten to opt out to force a trade. He might decide to play for the Knicks for a year under the old contract, and then be Larry Bird'ed to whatever in 2013 (if there is a Larry Bird under the new CBA).

So you just have to deal with Okafor's 11 million. Dalembert plus Turiaf are 8-9 million. So you just have to throw in Douglas or Balkman or some other 1.x million dollar deal, and maybe a second veteran contract at most to match Okafor.

Put another way, under the old CBA, we could have gotten a big three and then acquired Lee as part of the trade for the big three. However, we could not sign Lee and then acquire a big three. If this sounds crazy it is. But that is the old CBA, not me.

Or put another way, you are saying that you cannot have a big four. But look at the Celtics roster to see that this is possible to do (granted that two of their big four only make 9-11 million). Or look at the Lakers roster and all those large (eight over 3 million, six over 5 million, including one at 24 million) contracts.
 
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RunningJumper

Super Moderator
You seem to be implying a hard cap. If the new CBA has a hard cap, they would have to break up the Heat and Lakers. Not going to happen.

Under a soft cap, we can have three max contracts and Okafor, so long as we stay within the differential on the trade numbers. Chris Paul and Billups have close to identical contracts. At the trade deadline that is all that matters. In the summer of 2012, they could continue to match on the mutual sign-and-trades, whatever the new (reduced) max contract is, but that might not even be necessary if Chris Paul does not opt out. He only needs to threaten to opt out to force a trade. He might decide to play for the Knicks for a year under the old contract, and then be Larry Bird'ed to whatever in 2013 (if there is a Larry Bird under the new CBA).

So you just have to deal with Okafor's 11 million. Dalembert plus Turiaf are 8-9 million. So you just have to throw in Douglas or Balkman or some other 1.x million dollar deal, and maybe a second veteran contract at most to match Okafor.

Put another way, under the old CBA, we could have gotten a big three and then acquired Lee as part of the trade for the big three. However, we could not sign Lee and then acquire a big three. If this sounds crazy it is. But that is the old CBA, not me.

Or put another way, you are saying that you cannot have a big four. But look at the Celtics roster to see that this is possible to do (granted that two of their big four only make 9-11 million). Or look at the Lakers roster and all those large (eight over 3 million, six over 5 million, including one at 24 million) contracts.
Man now I'm lost lol.

You might be right though, I was thinking about how the heck they have that team.
 

nixon7

Benchwarmer
To RunningJumper

The old CBA cap is confusing as heck, and I am not an expert, so I could be wrong. But the Lakers and Celtics were somehow constructed.

No one knows what the new CBA will do, and it would be a crime, but possible, that they would grandfather the Lakers and Celtics and Heat; and make it so no other team could be similarly constructed.

But why would the other owners agree to that?

No one in NY will be crying if we get Chris Paul as a free agent, with no trade. Maybe even keep Billups as the PG backup at the veteran's minimum; and don't have to take on Okafor's contract.

But I am assuming that:

a) we would like Chris Paul sooner than later, and therefore
b) are willing to make such a deal work

The point is that we could get Chris Paul in December 2011 this way.

If the Hornets want to lose Chris Paul for nothing in return come July 2012 instead, GO AHEAD MAKE OUR DAY.

Part of the attraction of Dalembert is that he would be willing to sign a one or two year deal. Gasol or DeAndreJ would never sign a short-term deal, and then it might very well be impossible to ever get Chris Paul, or a point guard of the future. I do not see us getting a good enough PG in the draft at #17.

If we were able to trade into the lottery (unlikely), I would take Enes Kanter anyway. That is why I suggested the opposite, trading to get a second draft pick in the 20s (much more possible).
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Do you really think that another team is not going to present a more significant offer than a salary dump? Lakers could offer value back and I'm sure CP3 would play for LA. I think the Melo deal taught us all that it takes a lot to pry a franchise player away even if they are holding an option over the teams head. There will always be other teams driving up the price.
 

StarksOverJordan

Benchwarmer
Heres StarksoverJordan's Plan

Trade Walker, Douglas, and the rights to a draft pick we buy (20 to 29th) pick to the T-Wolves for Rubio

Sign Grant Hill, Draft Jimmer with 17th pick, Sign Kristic, Trade Balkman for dogshit.

2011 Team
C-Kristic
PF-STAT
SF-Melo
SG-Grant
PG-Billups

Bench:
Rubio
Landry
Shawne Williams
Turiaf
Jerome Jordan
Jimmer
Summer League Standout/Rautins/AC

2012-2013
Billups ready to take bench role, Phil Jackson accepts head coaching position, Jerome Jordan proves himself ready to be a Center, Knicks sign a legit shooting guard. The End.
 
Do you really think that another team is not going to present a more significant offer than a salary dump? Lakers could offer value back and I'm sure CP3 would play for LA. I think the Melo deal taught us all that it takes a lot to pry a franchise player away even if they are holding can option over the teams head. There will always be other teams driving up the price.
I think the Lakers are going to trade for D12, I don't think CP3 would accept a S&T to any other team. Plus I don't think CP3 even likes Kobe.
 
I stopped reading at the point where you wanted to trade Billups and Dalembert for Okafor and CP3. You might aswell send them a Cheeseburger in return for their franchise player and starting center lol wake up man!
 

StarksOverJordan

Benchwarmer
I stopped reading at the point where you wanted to trade Billups and Dalembert for Okafor and CP3. You might aswell send them a Cheeseburger in return for their franchise player and starting center lol wake up man!

I could go for a Mcdouble or those BK Burger Shots that came out for a little while.
 

nixon7

Benchwarmer
Sprewell-Houston cannot read

Well you stopped reading short of understanding my proposal.

The deal was Dalembert ($5M), Billups ($14M), Turiaf ($4M), Toney Douglas ($1.1M), and one of the young bigs (Noguiera, Faried, or Jerome Jordan) for Okafor ($11M) and CP3 ($14M). Also, the assumption was not that the Knicks want Okafor, but that the Hornets would force him into the deal to dump his long-term contract. I am sure we would prefer a deal without Okafor (your comment about "their starting center" seemed to assume that we want Okafor, not that the Hornets would be forcing him upon us).

Maybe you think that is still a deal that the Hornets do not take, but it is not a straight two for two swap (Dalembert/Billups for Okafor/CP3 - that does not work under the cap rules, as the rest of the thread made plain) that you (mis)represented. It is easy to cast aspersions at straw dogs.

Also, remember that this is so that the Hornets don't simply lose CP3 and get nothing. CP3 can prevent other teams from making competing offers, just like Carmelo did. Of course, some other team that CP3 wants to go to may make an offer, but I do not think that will be the Lakers (who will be offering Bynum, Odom, and some other players for Dwight Howard).

The real threat to the Knicks will be a team with a lot of young players and draft picks. But as we saw with New Jersey, CP3 may not want to go to such a team. The biggest threat is Oklahoma City if they give up Westbrook and some of their young bigs.
 
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ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
The thing about the CP3 trade is.. if he tells the NOH front office he only wants to go to the Knicks at the deadline there aren't many other options for them. No team is going to want him as a rental.. NOH would have to deal with us.

There won't be any escape hatch team like NJ because there won't need to be.

There's will not be any threat of a new CBA creating urgency for Paul and the need for another team.

If he wants to come to the Knicks and it can work financially somehow, it should happen w/ out exorbitant cost to us.

We should really have the upper hand if a trade goes down.
 

DieHardPassion

Benchwarmer
I know everyone is second guessing and trying to map out the best case scenario for the Knicks. But I think if we're going to talk about this we should talk about what Walsh would do. That old bastard has already brought four of the five pieces to a championship caliber team. He's going to finish that task whether we like it or not and Chris Paul or Dwight Howard is the final piece to that puzzle. So guys lets forget about Deandre Jordan and Marc Gasol since they're too expensive and seem like franchise players.
Now the debate is whether you're shooting for Paul or Howard. Walsh will pick up Dalembert, Kristic, or a Center both as a safety for Howard and potential trading chip. The Knicks will draft a point guard as a safety for Paul and potential trading chip. The Knicks will resign players under 2 million. Then when the season starts the hunt for a superstar continues from this past season. There's a lot of risk to Walsh's plan but like this past season we'll have legitimate safeties on our rosters if we don't get our man.

Following Walsh's plan the ideal scenario would be:
Knicks draft Jimmer Fredette or Nolan Smith
Knicks Sign Dalembert and Grant Hill
Knicks resign Shawne Williams, Jarred Jeffries, Anthony Carter
Knicks season to trade deadline: playing .600 ball
Knicks trade Jimmer Fredette or Nolan Smith, Toney Douglas, Billups, Shawne Williams, Jerome Jordan or Bill walker, 2 future first round picks, 2 second round picks
For
Chris Paul and Jarrett Jack and expendables

OR

Knicks trade Billups, Toney Douglas, Samuel Dalembert, Jerome Jordan, Landry Fields, 3 future first round picks, 3 second round picks
For
Dwight Howard, Hedo Turkologue or Gilbert Arenas and expendables

Lakers can offer better assets but why would a team like Orlando and Lakers take back a player that's worse than Paul and Howard for the same price? Example: Pau Gasol or Bynum and other pieces for Howard. Magics already have enough other pieces.
Hornets need a point guard back from a trade for Paul which Lakers don't have.

Walsh has this all figured out...
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
I know everyone is second guessing and trying to map out the best case scenario for the Knicks. But I think if we're going to talk about this we should talk about what Walsh would do. That old bastard has already brought four of the five pieces to a championship caliber team. He's going to finish that task whether we like it or not and Chris Paul or Dwight Howard is the final piece to that puzzle. So guys lets forget about Deandre Jordan and Marc Gasol since they're too expensive and seem like franchise players.
Now the debate is whether you're shooting for Paul or Howard. Walsh will pick up Dalembert, Kristic, or a Center both as a safety for Howard and potential trading chip. The Knicks will draft a point guard as a safety for Paul and potential trading chip. The Knicks will resign players under 2 million. Then when the season starts the hunt for a superstar continues from this past season. There's a lot of risk to Walsh's plan but like this past season we'll have legitimate safeties on our rosters if we don't get our man.

Following Walsh's plan the ideal scenario would be:
Knicks draft Jimmer Fredette or Nolan Smith
Knicks Sign Dalembert and Grant Hill
Knicks resign Shawne Williams, Jarred Jeffries, Anthony Carter
Knicks season to trade deadline: playing .600 ball
Knicks trade Jimmer Fredette or Nolan Smith, Toney Douglas, Billups, Shawne Williams, Jerome Jordan or Bill walker, 2 future first round picks, 2 second round picks
For
Chris Paul and Jarrett Jack and expendables

OR

Knicks trade Billups, Toney Douglas, Samuel Dalembert, Jerome Jordan, Landry Fields, 3 future first round picks, 3 second round picks
For
Dwight Howard, Hedo Turkologue or Gilbert Arenas and expendables

Lakers can offer better assets but why would a team like Orlando and Lakers take back a player that's worse than Paul and Howard for the same price? Example: Pau Gasol or Bynum and other pieces for Howard. Magics already have enough other pieces.
Hornets need a point guard back from a trade for Paul which Lakers don't have.

Walsh has this all figured out...

Good food for thought here..
 

RunningJumper

Super Moderator
I know everyone is second guessing and trying to map out the best case scenario for the Knicks. But I think if we're going to talk about this we should talk about what Walsh would do. That old bastard has already brought four of the five pieces to a championship caliber team. He's going to finish that task whether we like it or not and Chris Paul or Dwight Howard is the final piece to that puzzle. So guys lets forget about Deandre Jordan and Marc Gasol since they're too expensive and seem like franchise players.
Now the debate is whether you're shooting for Paul or Howard. Walsh will pick up Dalembert, Kristic, or a Center both as a safety for Howard and potential trading chip. The Knicks will draft a point guard as a safety for Paul and potential trading chip. The Knicks will resign players under 2 million. Then when the season starts the hunt for a superstar continues from this past season. There's a lot of risk to Walsh's plan but like this past season we'll have legitimate safeties on our rosters if we don't get our man.

Following Walsh's plan the ideal scenario would be:
Knicks draft Jimmer Fredette or Nolan Smith
Knicks Sign Dalembert and Grant Hill
Knicks resign Shawne Williams, Jarred Jeffries, Anthony Carter
Knicks season to trade deadline: playing .600 ball
Knicks trade Jimmer Fredette or Nolan Smith, Toney Douglas, Billups, Shawne Williams, Jerome Jordan or Bill walker, 2 future first round picks, 2 second round picks
For
Chris Paul and Jarrett Jack and expendables

OR

Knicks trade Billups, Toney Douglas, Samuel Dalembert, Jerome Jordan, Landry Fields, 3 future first round picks, 3 second round picks
For
Dwight Howard, Hedo Turkologue or Gilbert Arenas and expendables

Lakers can offer better assets but why would a team like Orlando and Lakers take back a player that's worse than Paul and Howard for the same price? Example: Pau Gasol or Bynum and other pieces for Howard. Magics already have enough other pieces.
Hornets need a point guard back from a trade for Paul which Lakers don't have.

Walsh has this all figured out...
Ok, I'm not an expert on the cap, but there's not a CHANCE under this cap or a new cap we could take Gilbert Arenas. Gilbert Arenas is a max. He's making more than Stoudemire.
 
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