Can we cut the Superstar sh*t?

And realize that teams win championships not individuals.

We need to concentrate on building a team not addng stars, especially non-big man stars.

I called this series (Mavs in 6) bcause I felt they had the plyers to exploit MIA's weakness, that being no size, no depth.

IMO, Dirk & Chandler were better than KG/O'Neal, Noah/Boozer, and Brand/Young.

I believed MIA had no answer for a 25 & 10 player and a complimentry big like Chandler.

Does this not show how important big men are, as almost ever other championship we see? Bynum/Gasol, KG/Perk, Duncan/Robinson, Hakeem, The Wallaces, Shaq & co. Etc...

Yeah wing players form a big part of a team, they are the do-it-all players, hitting from the outside or driving, or mid-range and pass for easy shots but...


Those bigs in the trenches make the difference. Ask Kobe.


Next I priortize the COACH.

Spolstra is not on Carlise's level.

Coaches utilize the talent and obviously can't exploit a fundamental part of the game (size) when its missing.

I didn't see the eye of the tiger within Lebron like I do with Dirk, Terry, Kidd and Berrea etc...

I saw fear and indecisiveness, and a lack of contengency.

Like a bully or an over-rated boxer who can't handle when someone doesn't back down. As I said the longer the fight goes, the more the confidence shifts from the favorite to the underdog.

We have work to do. Stop with the CP3 we need stars sh*t.

Get us some size and coaching (defensive) and we will be the ones battling for the Trophy next year. Trust.

BTW, I think the superstrs we have are enough.

Billups-Stat- and Melo. Plenty.

☆☆☆☆☆

Not that it should be necessary to give 5 stars for stating the f'ing obvious.

Perfect example of fact VS philosophy.

As you say: "Just ask Kobe".

I saw fear and indecisiveness, and a lack of contingency.

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Wasn't it unbelievable! :shrug:

Carlisle had a great series, but Spo is in a tough spot.

I've always been a Spo fan - but his position is really impossible. If he doesn't win a title, he's a failure. My bet is he gets fired, and the next team that hires him is pleased that the Heat let him go.

Crazy⑧s;181288 said:

☆☆☆☆☆

Not that it should be necessary to give 5 stars for stating the f'ing obvious.

Perfect example of fact VS philosophy.

As you say: "Just ask Kobe".



Wasn't it unbelievable! :shrug:

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I saw it early when MIA went hard but couldn't put them away.

Then when they couldn't help but prematurely celebrate, which actually began before the season started.

They have ego and indentity problems. A great coach would've tamed that, good luck with that...

The entitlement mentality is deep with them, maybe Riley will return.

Moving forward though, when you have a top scorer ala Melo, you surround him with complimets and let him do what he does, the rest falls into place.

And I'm not saying it should be Melo all day, like with Dirk, he takes over when he's hot, and his team picks him up when he's not. Imagine how hard that is when eveyone thinks they are a "star"

Quite ironic

Red said:

And realize that teams win championships not individuals.

We need to concentrate on building a team not addng stars, especially non-big man stars.

I called this series (Mavs in 6) bcause I felt they had the plyers to exploit MIA's weakness, that being no size, no depth.

IMO, Dirk & Chandler were better than KG/O'Neal, Noah/Boozer, and Brand/Young.

I believed MIA had no answer for a 25 & 10 player and a complimentry big like Chandler.

Does this not show how important big men are, as almost ever other championship we see? Bynum/Gasol, KG/Perk, Duncan/Robinson, Hakeem, The Wallaces, Shaq & co. Etc...

Yeah wing players form a big part of a team, they are the do-it-all players, hitting from the outside or driving, or mid-range and pass for easy shots but...


Those bigs in the trenches make the difference. Ask Kobe.


Next I priortize the COACH.

Spolstra is not on Carlise's level.

Coaches utilize the talent and obviously can't exploit a fundamental part of the game (size) when its missing.

I didn't see the eye of the tiger within Lebron like I do with Dirk, Terry, Kidd and Berrea etc...

I saw fear and indecisiveness, and a lack of contengency.

Like a bully or an over-rated boxer who can't handle when someone doesn't back down. As I said the longer the fight goes, the more the confidence shifts from the favorite to the underdog.

We have work to do. Stop with the CP3 we need stars sh*t.

Get us some size and coaching (defensive) and we will be the ones battling for the Trophy next year. Trust.

Click to expand...

All great points Red. Carlisle was the coach I was hoping we would get when Isaiah was axed. He's a great combo of an offensive & defensive coach.

They have a word for the second point I bolded: Front Runners

Heck, I was saying this since the beginning of the season. But everybody wanted to give the farm for Melo, saying...get this...."we HAVE TO get Melo, we don't want Amare to be like Dirk".

Depth and a bench are just as important as a superstar. Jason Terry and Barea were just as important. We had our MVP, all we needed were the other pieces, namely a big man, as Red mentioned.

Hopefully the new CBA allows us to get those important pieces. Or else we'll be just like Miami, but a little worse.

LJ4ptplay said:

Heck, I was saying this since the beginning of the season. But everybody wanted to give the farm for Melo, saying...get this...."we HAVE TO get Melo, we don't want Amare to be like Dirk".

Depth and a bench are just as important as a superstar. Jason Terry and Barea were just as important. We had our MVP, all we needed were the other pieces, namely a big man, as Red mentioned.

Hopefully the new CBA allows us to get those important pieces. Or else we'll be just like Miami, but a little worse.

Click to expand...

Problem is we 1st need the superstar! Amre is no Dirk and not capable of carrying a team like Dirk or Melo. Now that we have that legit star who can carry our team we can fill up the squad with role players.

BTW:

1. Miami may not have won last night night but the safe bet is that they WILL win eventually.

2. Are you really still crusading against Melo? I understand we gave up a ton but are you still regretting him being a Knick in his prime especially after what he did against Boston when our whole team was either injured or incompetent?

TR1LL10N said:

2. Are you really still crusading against Melo? I understand we gave up a ton but are you still regretting him being a Knick in his prime especially after what he did against Boston when our whole team was either injured or incompetent?

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Yes, I still regret him being a Knick. And if the new CBA is as restrictive as predicted, I will resent him even more.

Melo was great in Game 2 and good in game 4. He was absolutely terrible in Game 1 and bad in game 3. This is what you get from Melo. I've been saying this from the beginning.

TR1LL10N said:

Problem is we 1st need the superstar! Amre is no Dirk and not capable of carrying a team like Dirk or Melo. Now that we have that legit star who can carry our team we can fill up the squad with role players.

BTW:

1. Miami may not have won last night night but the safe bet is that they WILL win eventually.

2. Are you really still crusading against Melo? I understand we gave up a ton but are you still regretting him being a Knick in his prime especially after what he did against Boston when our whole team was either injured or incompetent?

Click to expand...

I think that performance against BOS has put the league on notice.

Also, it should quail any doubters who believe he either came for the $ or isn't committedto winning.

Its safe to say we have our Dirk. We have our stars.

Like we thought long ago that was the tough part then strategically acquiring compliments is next.

I hope the D'antoni influence doesn't continue to f*ck with that.

LJ4ptplay said:

Yes, I still regret him being a Knick. And if the new CBA is as restrictive as predicted, I will resent him even more.

Melo was great in Game 2 and good in game 4. He was absolutely terrible in Game 1 and bad in game 3. This is what you get from Melo. I've been saying this from the beginning.

Click to expand...

Address my other points. That said, It's clear you made a prejudgment as you were crusading against this from the beginning and I hope you don't fall into the trap of sticking to your prejudice even as the team finds success.

Again:

Step 1 was get that superstar. (Amare and role playters would not have been enough)

Step 2 is fill the team up with role players and hope some underachievers reach their potential. (Jason Terry)


P.S. Dallas has Dirk, vets and role players who all overachieve playing against the weakest minded "superstar" ever to play.

Red said:

I think that performance against BOS has put the league on notice.

Also, it should quail any doubters who believe he either came for the $ or isn't committedto winning.

Its safe to say we have our Dirk. We have our stars.

Like we thought long ago that was the tough part then strategically acquiring compliments is next.

I hope the D'antoni influence doesn't continue to f*ck with that.

Click to expand...

Yea it amazes me how any Knick fan cannot support Melo. Maybve you can quibble about the size of the trade but now that he is here how can he not have our full support!? He is OUR Dirk. He is OUR Kobe.

TR1LL10N said:

Address my other points. That said, It's clear you made a prejudgment as you were crusading against this from the beginning and I hope you don't fall into the trap of sticking to your prejudice even as the team finds success.

Again:

Step 1 was get that superstar. (Amare and role playters would not have been enough)

Step 2 is fill the team up with role players and hope some underachievers reach their potential. (Jason Terry)


P.S. Dallas has Dirk, vets and role players who all overachieve playing against the weakest minded "superstar" ever to play.

Click to expand...

Saying Amare is no Dirk after a great playoffs and finals performance, when you were saying we can't afford to let Amare be like Dirk without another superstar, seems like convienent 20/20 hindsight to me.

I wonder what you would have said about 1/4 through this season. That Dirk is no Amare, possibly?

While I agree, Amare + role players is not enough, I am quite confident Amare + the 2010 Knicks roster + approx $18 mil in cap space this summer was more than enough to build a contender.

Amare + Billups + Melo + minimum salary players is definitely not enough. Hoping we land a Jason Terry type for the minimum doesn't seem worth it to me. There were better options than giving up as much as we did for Melo.

LJ4ptplay said:

Yes, I still regret him being a Knick. And if the new CBA is as restrictive as predicted, I will resent him even more.

Melo was great in Game 2 and good in game 4. He was absolutely terrible in Game 1 and bad in game 3. This is what you get from Melo. I've been saying this from the beginning.

Click to expand...

We can point to any star and find this.

And recall where we were before this in terms of wanting a star, it looked impossible.

So what's your point? He was too expensive or his game too inconsistent?

LJ4ptplay said:

Saying Amare is no Dirk after a great playoffs and finals performance, when you were saying we can't afford to let Amare be like Dirk without another superstar, seems like convienent 20/20 hindsight to me.

I wonder what you would have said about 1/4 through this season. That Dirk is no Amare, possibly?

While I agree, Amare + role players is not enough, I am quite confident Amare + the 2010 Knicks roster + approx $18 mil in cap space this summer was more than enough to build a contender.

Amare + Billups + Melo + minimum salary players is definitely not enough. Hoping we land a Jason Terry type for the minimum doesn't seem worth it to me. There were better options than giving up as much as we did for Melo.

Click to expand...

1. What a player does defines him and Dirk lead his team to a title. Not seeing that in Amare is not hindsight but rather my impression and conclusion of the type of game Amare has. Great scorer, lot of heart but nothing much else.

2. Amare + Melo + 14 mil of Billups expiring is pretty decent.

3. As everyone pointed out its Dirk and a bunch of role players. We have our "Dirk" and Amare and now we need to fill up our team much like Dallas did. They did not do it overnight and it took many years. Relax and enjoy the ride...we have 2 legit stars in their prime and time to make the moves necessary. I for one will enjoy the journey as we get better and better.

Red said:

We can point to any star and find this.

And recall where we were before this in terms of wanting a star, it looked impossible.

So what's your point? He was too expensive or his game too inconsistent?

Click to expand...

Bingo! Yes, he was/is both. It cost us too much, as in we are quite possibly never going to win a championship because we gave up too much...and he is overrated. Melo is defintely not leading this team to anything unless we are able to surround him with quality role players, which we may not be able to do because we have no cap space, assets or draft picks.

If the new CBA allows us to get these pieces, I will support Melo. Until then, I will continue to make this point. The Knicks winning a championship comes first to me, not Melo.

LJ4ptplay said:

Bingo! Yes, he was/is both. It cost us too much, as in we are quite possibly never going to win a championship because we gave up too much...and he is overrated. Melo is defintely not leading this team to anything unless we are able to surround him with quality role players, which we may not be able to do because we have no cap space, assets or draft picks.

If the new CBA allows us to get these pieces, I will support Melo. Until then, I will continue to make this point. The Knicks winning a championship comes first to me, not Melo.

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Well according to some those compliments are supposed to want to come here on the cheap... it remains to be seen.

And I guess that's what closers cost. We did need one and he singlehandedly won games for us and looked unstoppable in game 2. Don't forget that. Not many players can do that. Maybe Kobe and Wade but the list is short.

With him cb stat and fields all we really need is size to me.

And I hear your reservations but I think after a full season+ you'll come around.

I dont know, I think in our case it is different

if we got a chris paul

he would probably average 13 ppg and 13 assists with 4 reb and 2 stls a game

That is better than a bosh as the third offensive option who needs shots to be effective.

Paul has already shown he doesnt have an ego

with a team that has the least amount of talent of chris pauls career, I felt that during the regular season and in that playoff series against hte lakers paul got that team to play better than some of his past teams became he was unselfish and elevated the play of his team.

imagine paul elevating amare and melo ?

it would be priceless

DontForgetDerekHarper said:

I dont know, I think in our case it is different

if we got a chris paul

he would probably average 13 ppg and 13 assists with 4 reb and 2 stls a game

That is better than a bosh as the third offensive option who needs shots to be effective.

Paul has already shown he doesnt have an ego

with a team that has the least amount of talent of chris pauls career, I felt that during the regular season and in that playoff series against hte lakers paul got that team to play better than some of his past teams became he was unselfish and elevated the play of his team.

imagine paul elevating amare and melo ?

it would be priceless

Click to expand...

Imagine CB Stat Melo Fields and...

D12.

A D12 not expected to carry his team. That's championship caliber.

LJ4ptplay said:

1. Depth and a bench are just as important as a superstar. Jason Terry and Barea were just as important. We had our MVP, all we needed were the other pieces, namely a big man, as Red mentioned.

2. Hopefully the new CBA allows us to get those important pieces. Or else we'll be just like Miami, but a little worse.

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1. They absolutely are. The Bowen's, Mario Ellie's, Avery Johnson's, Steve Kerr's etc. are name's that would have disappeared unless they played fitting roles on championship teams.

2. And therein lies the ultimate success of both this team, and, to a degree, the Melo trade. I'm with you there.

TR1LL10N said:

Problem is we 1st need the superstar! Amre is no Dirk and not capable of carrying a team like Dirk or Melo. Now that we have that legit star who can carry our team we can fill up the squad with role players.

BTW:

Miami may not have won last night night but the safe bet is that they WILL win eventually.

Click to expand...

And we needed to adjust to that future since 'The Decision' by fortifying our front court. Dallas' size between Chandler and Dirka Dirka was Miami's scourge! Given the 50% success rate of small ball all season, as I've said, this can't be about what D'Antoni needs but doesn't have anymore. We need to curb Miami's inevitable emergence in to a powerhouse by building a team that boasts an equilibrium in both their offensive and defensive efficiency. The best defence is a good defence, not a good offence.

LJ4ptplay said:

Melo was great in Game 2 and good in game 4. He was absolutely terrible in Game 1 and bad in game 3. This is what you get from Melo. I've been saying this from the beginning.

Click to expand...

Melo was molested by the refs in game 1. Whether or not you abide by the saying "can't leave it in the hands of the refs, nor blame them for failure", he was. Bias? No. He was absolutely fingered by the zebras.

Red said:

1. Its safe to say we have our Dirk. We have our stars. Like we thought long ago that was the tough part then strategically acquiring compliments is next.

2. I hope the D'antoni influence doesn't continue to f*ck with that.

Click to expand...

1. Unfortunately, in regard to acquiring compliments, we're subject to the placebo effect of the Melo trade and the hammer fall of the CBA. The losses of Mozgov and Randolph seem irrelevant to most, but if the CBA comes out against our favour, then they will be anything but irrelevant. I know a lot of people don't agree with me about that, but considering that a lot of people are pining for Jerome Jordan sais it all, IMO.

2. I concur.

TR1LL10N said:

1. It's clear you made a prejudgment as you were crusading against this from the beginning and I hope you don't fall into the trap of sticking to your prejudice even as the team finds success.

Again:

Step 2 is fill the team up with role players and hope some underachievers reach their potential. (Jason Terry)


P.S. Dallas has Dirk, vets and role players who all overachieve playing against the weakest minded "superstar" ever to play.

Click to expand...

LJ's prejudgements weren't so much prejudgements as they were a presage. Though he didn't say so in this particular post, I agree with him in terms of the whole facade having nothing to do with winning.

I'm happy to have Melo, but the fact still remains, we gambled on the unknown. Both his and Dolan's finances came before their winning aspirations. It's a shame that multi millionaires don't share that mentality with their comparatively impoverished fans. In a perfect world he would have stuck with Denver until season's end [they were almost in 6th spot at the time] and signed with us as a FA. Still, you can't be overly judgemental toward a man who didn't want to forfeit $15M+.

The trade basically became a stalemate because of this, IMO. In Denver and Minnesota's case, I think they came out on top considering what they garnered for what they gave up when all things cap and CBA are considered. Marginally so in Denver's case.