Kwame Brown... Are we serious?!

keyser soze said:

Totally agree. I think people are grossly underestimating us coming into this season (if there is a season).

1) People are underestimating the value of a full training camp and its beneficial effect on the team's cohesion as a hole.

2) People are underestimating how much we will improve our rebounding and defense if we sign even ONE more big body who Mike D is willing to play. As much of a bust as he has been, a guy like Kwame would improve our interior presence So much it's not even funny.

3) People are forgetting that we were playing pretty well at the end of the season and if BOTH Amare and Billups don't get hurt early in the Boston series, that's a very different series.

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bingo. i see us making a decent run in the playoffs and it would be unimaginable if we eventually get cp3. we got vets who know the game well and 2 superstars in their prime to help. Only thing is i don't know about d antonie coaching. Like him as a person but i don't think his style of play is suited for us if we plan on being contenders for years to come.

keyser soze said:

Although Kwame wouldn't be first on my list, the important point that people keep ignoring is that he would only be a 1 year stopgap. We need SOMEONE over 6'10 to man the 5 next season. Kwame playing 25-30 minutes a night wouldn't really be the end the of world for one season, on a cheap contract.

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Last year it was "Jared Jeffries on a 1 year contract won't really hurt us"... this year it's Kwame Brown. Why Knick fans want to target scrubs like this boggles my mind.

Red said:

Ok then so why the need for CP3 IF a Kwame Brown can improve us so?

Why would we need him over a say Ray Felton?

If a big of Kwame's caliber makes us that good with the whole training camp and stuff, what will a Nene do for us?

See my point? IF we fill our center NEEDS, CP3 is a luxury not a NEED. Just think we saw Ray Felton do what he did, not GREAT but not bad, and that was without a center in his first year.

How much of a difference will CP3 make compared to a less expensive Felton missing a center... not much if any. No one would complain if we had Stat Melo and Felt. No one. We would say we need size.

Well get that size and again, almost any good passing pg can flourish to an acceptable level.

GET THE BIG. Now or later, CP3 or not, we will still need a big. They are a rare commodity.

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Your post indicates that you're still lacking in a clear comprehension of basketball logic. I cannot understand how you still don't see the importance of getting the best player available. Paul is that player... and he wants to come here and play with your Allstar PF and SF. It's simple.

What can you not see this??

keyser soze said:

I agree with you about getting the big but my point was and remains that to get a big the caliber of say, Tyson Chandler, makes no sense because we would have to grossly overpay him (as someone most certainly will). I'd MUCH rather pay CP3 a max (which he deserves) than pay Chandler 12-14 million (which he doesn't). In other words, because centers are scarce commodities and inherently overpriced in today's NBA market, it makes no sense to spend a lot on one unless you are landing a true elite center (and Howard is the only one out there). If Howard is worth 16M, there is no way that Chandler is worth 12-14 but I absolutely guarantee you that he will get that much.

So, instead of overpaying Chandler, Nene, Marc Gasol, or someone else with almost all of the money that could have netted us a 3rd max player, let's go get CP3 AND a guy like Kwame (who I maintain would improve our interior presence drastically, all by himself). This way, we hand out fair, equitable contracts AND we fill our needs.

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Even if we could have Chandler and Felton w our current core. I'd still take CP3 and a serviceable group at center. You always get the great/best player first, although your logic is sound w re: to overpaying for centers. It's still beside the point.

drpapi23 said:

bingo. i see us making a decent run in the playoffs and it would be unimaginable if we eventually get cp3. we got vets who know the game well and 2 superstars in their prime to help. Only thing is i don't know about d antonie coaching. Like him as a person but i don't think his style of play is suited for us if we plan on being contenders for years to come.

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Jermaine O'Neal did what for the Celtics?

ronoranina said:

Even if we could have Chandler and Felton w our current core. I'd still take CP3 and a serviceable group at center. You always get the great/best player first, although your logic is sound w re: to overpaying for centers. It's still beside the point.

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Why wouldn't you take Chandler and Felton over CP3? In either scenario we will probably attract good veterans. Getting the center we need and a good PG who's in good condition along with our two superstars would be just as much attractive.

Felton wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd take him and Chandler.

Again, you would take CP3 the superstar if it weren't for the fact that you already have Carmelo and Amar'e on this team.

EVERY team needs good roleplayers. Yes, Scottie and Michael were ridiculous but guys like Toni Kukoc and Dennis Rodman were just as critical in those title runs.

RunningJumper said:

Why wouldn't you take Chandler and Felton over CP3? In either scenario we will probably attract good veterans. Getting the center we need and a good PG who's in good condition along with our two superstars would be just as much attractive.

Felton wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd take him and Chandler.

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Nah dude.. you take the great player in every instance. You never pass up on greatness. That's basketball 101.

I shouldn't have to explain this. It's a luxury you don't pass on.

SSj4Wingzero said:

Again, you would take CP3 the superstar if it weren't for the fact that you already have Carmelo and Amar'e on this team.

EVERY team needs good roleplayers. Yes, Scottie and Michael were ridiculous but guys like Toni Kukoc and Dennis Rodman were just as critical in those title runs.

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No, in the context of Amare and Carmelo, I think you need that third guy.

Jordan and Pippen were good enough to buck most historical winning traits of Championship teams. They had some good role guys like Rodman and Kukoc who they got at discount because they were dynasty type team. We could get a guy or two like that too imo. We're not as good w just Amare and Melo tho. I think for this reason you go and get that third high caliber player. Now you can go the Dallas route by stacking roll guys and hoping the team gels around our two stars. But does anyone look at Dallas as team that will win again next yr? Are they a multi-title type of team? I don't see it. I think the East is going to win the next few titles and I want our team to be included in that kind of contention. W a big 3 including Paul we could win multiple chips imo.

ronoranina said:

Your post indicates that you're still lacking in a clear comprehension of basketball logic. I cannot understand how you still don't see the importance of getting the best player available. Paul is that player... and he wants to come here and play with your Allstar PF and SF. It's simple.

What can you not see this??



Even if we could have Chandler and Felton w our current core. I'd still take CP3 and a serviceable group at center. You always get the great/best player first, although your logic is sound w re: to overpaying for centers. It's still beside the point.

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Really? Show us your comprehension by answering this:

1. What CHAMPIONSHIP team had 3 players under MAX contracts?

2. What championship team won without the contribution of their front court?

3. What CHAMPIONSHIP team (in recent memory) has won without a player they drafted making a major contribution (including draft day trades- Kobe)?

4. Estimate for us by wins and losses the difference between fielding the SAME team with CP3 vs Ray Felton.

Thanks.

What you can't comprehend is your approach is flawed and its revealed in your argument> getting "the best" is what's best.

When building from scratch- yep everyone agrees.
When ALREADY having 2 MAX players- nope "the best" isn't what's necessarily what's best for a team

The situation, as I've explained, becomes the best complimentary AFFORDABLE players should be signed. Simply because the players added after acquiring 2 max's MUST compliment and accentuate our previous investment(s).

Cp3 does exactly THE OPPOSITE IF he costs max $. HE prevents us from finising what we started 3 years ago. That's counter intuitive.

I understand what you don't. Your idea is one used to sell tickets.

My position is one that increases likely hood of championship success and is fiscally responsible enough to consider forward flexibility.

Again its simple... no team feels they need to add another MAX contract after they already (recently) added 2- if so its considered back tracking from a mistake.

Looking forward to your answers.

Thanks again.

i cant seem to fathom how people are not getting you!
the freakin heat came 2 wins within winning a championship and guaranteed will be favored to win it all whenever next season starts.
dont gimme that bs about how dallas won and all that, dallas won after like 10 tries. Aside from D12, no only is CP3 the best player we can get, but his skillset will have the GREATEST IMPACT!

ronoranina said:

Nah dude.. you take the great player in every instance. You never pass up on greatness. That's basketball 101.

I shouldn't have to explain this. It's a luxury you don't pass on.





No, in the context of Amare and Carmelo, I think you need that third guy.

Jordan and Pippen were good enough to buck most historical winning traits of Championship teams. They had some good role guys like Rodman and Kukoc who they got at discount because they were dynasty type team. We could get a guy or two like that too imo. We're not as good w just Amare and Melo tho. I think for this reason you go and get that third high caliber player. Now you can go the Dallas route by stacking roll guys and hoping the team gels around our two stars. But does anyone look at Dallas as team that will win again next yr? Are they a multi-title type of team? I don't see it. I think the East is going to win the next few titles and I want our team to be included in that kind of contention. W a big 3 including Paul we could win multiple chips imo.

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Red said:

Really? Show us your comprehension by answering this:

1. What CHAMPIONSHIP team had 3 players under MAX contracts?

Sooo... I guess the Celtics don't qualify?? I could go on. There have plenty of teams throughout history that have players that would be considered "max types", and many teams that have won a chip w 3 stars.

2. What championship team won without the contribution of their front court?

This question doesn't apply to us. We would have contribution from our front court at PF. Did you mean contribution from the center position?

3. What CHAMPIONSHIP team (in recent memory) has won without a player they drafted making a major contribution (including draft day trades- Kobe)?

This is a dumb question. If your team is dominant enough it doesn't matter how you acquired the talent. And I think it's safe to say we'll have somebody on the team w drafted if and when we finally win one.


4. Estimate for us by wins and losses the difference between fielding the SAME team with CP3 vs Ray Felton.

I'm not even going to entertain this question. Felton is not in Paul's stratosphere. You do not comprehend (u and Running J) fully what Paul would bring to this team. Plain and simple. I just have to accept that.

Thanks.

What you can't comprehend is your approach is flawed and its revealed in your argument> getting "the best" is what's best.

Nope, it's always the approach.

When building from scratch- yep everyone agrees.
When ALREADY having 2 MAX players- nope "the best" isn't what's necessarily what's best for a team.

We don't already have two max players. Melo is max Amare isn't. We overpaid for Amare. W Paul we'd have our two legit max players. If we had Paul and Melo I'd say fine, go and round out the team w a fine role playing center and whatever else we could afford. But we don't already, so we need Paul. Paul and Melo are both better than Amare imo. Paul is better than either of them.

The situation, as I've explained, becomes the best complimentary AFFORDABLE players should be signed. Simply because the players added after acquiring 2 max's MUST compliment and accentuate our previous investment(s).

Cp3 does exactly THE OPPOSITE IF he costs max $. HE prevents us from finising what we started 3 years ago. That's counter intuitive.

This all depends on the new CBA. We don't know if gettting him will prevent us from finishing what we started yet. Do we?

I understand what you don't. Your idea is one used to sell tickets.

Nice try. But Paul combined w Melo and Amare would produce dominance and wins while giving us a legit shot at beating Miami and ultimately getting to the pinnacle of the sport. And yes, we could do this w a serviceable three headed beast at center and solid role players. Just look at Miami they got all of the way the finals w the crap they had at center. You fail to acknowledge this. Miami will add to what they have and continue to get better.

My position is one that increases likely hood of championship success and is fiscally responsible enough to consider forward flexibility.

Unfortunately in the real basketball world you can't always do both. Just take a look at the Lakers and Dallas. Both went well over the cap to accomplish what they did.

And contrary to what most people on this board and elsewhere say, Chandler wasn't as important as people think. It was the collective, the totality of talent in Dallas that made them a Championship team. They had three guards play great for them in Barea, Kidd and Terry, which is unbelievable and rare. Deshawn locking down other 2's and stroking 3s when needed. Marion is awesome and a bigtime contributor. Peja would come in and score too. And Dirk just took his game to another kind of level. He is at the height of his greatness, having completely mastered the mental nuances of the game. They had a better overall collection of players than everybody else. I didn't think so at first but it just makes sense when you look at the contributions and the result. They also gelled at the right time.

Again its simple... no team feels they need to add another MAX contract after they already (recently) added 2- if so its considered back tracking from a mistake.

Really?? So we're just gonna turn Paul away and say "no you can't come here we can't scarifice cap flexibilty.. Even though your the best PG of this generation and you'll give us more flexibility talent-wise that most can comprehend". You need to stop.

Looking forward to your answers.

Thanks again.

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There you go Red.. :thumbsup:

Rono,

What you fail to realize is that the issue of CP3 and people on this board not wanting him ultimately boils down to their hatred of MDA. Subconsciously or consciously they want MDA to fail to vindicate their stance therefore do not want to see us acquire players that possibly could compliment his system. Red and others would have no problem obtaining D12 over CP3 because that fits their prejudice and desire for size so don't be fooled by this 3 Max argument. It's about them wanting THEIR idea of 3 max players.

This hatred leads to absurd stances that would have us forgo a legit superstar for draft picks!!

TR1LL10N said:

Rono,

What you fail to realize is that the issue of CP3 and people on this board not wanting him ultimately boils down to their hatred of MDA. Subconsciously or consciously they want MDA to fail to vindicate their stance therefore do not want to see us acquire players that possibly could compliment his system. Red and others would have no problem obtaining D12 over CP3 because that fits their prejudice and desire for size so don't be fooled by this 3 Max argument.

This hatred leads to absurd stances that would have us forgo a legit superstar for draft picks!!

Click to expand...

Not necessarily. I don't like MDA's system, I think it's flawed, I would prefer a more conventional inside/out system that produces higher percentage looks as opposed to the multitude of "open" lower percentage looks. As long as we're taking low percentage shots, we're going to have to be a gang offensive rebounding team, which leads to poor transition defense. Unless we have a team of sharpshooters...

But all of that being said...I'll take CP3, Dwight, or Deron...you don't pass up on that kind of talent, ever. Doesn't matter who the coach is, when you have three complimentary starters from the last All-Star game (assuming we get CP3 or Dwight, Deron ain't half bad tho.)

Plus those three guys all fill positions of need anyway, unless the likes of Turiaf and Billups will be our starting 1s and 5s going forward.

nuckles2k2 said:

Not necessarily. I don't like MDA's system, I think it's flawed, I would prefer a more conventional inside/out system that produces higher percentage looks as opposed to the multitude of "open" lower percentage looks. As long as we're taking low percentage shots, we're going to have to be a gang offensive rebounding team, which leads to poor transition defense. Unless we have a team of sharpshooters...

But all of that being said...I'll take CP3, Dwight, or Deron...you don't pass up on that kind of talent, ever. Doesn't matter who the coach is, when you have three complimentary starters from the last All-Star game (assuming we get CP3 or Dwight, Deron ain't half bad tho.)

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You are entitled to not like his system but I am glad you are not willing to pass up on talent just to see the system fail .

TR1LL10N said:

Rono,

What you fail to realize is that the issue of CP3 and people on this board not wanting him ultimately boils down to their hatred of MDA. Subconsciously or consciously they want MDA to fail to vindicate their stance therefore do not want to see us acquire players that possibly could compliment his system. Red and others would have no problem obtaining D12 over CP3 because that fits their prejudice and desire for size so don't be fooled by this 3 Max argument. It's about them wanting THEIR idea of 3 max players.

This hatred leads to absurd stances that would have us forgo a legit superstar for draft picks!!

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Not true. I'm against getting a max PG. I'm not opposed to getting Nash, who is still a superstar and probably the best offensive PG in the game. Has NOTHING to do with D'Antoni. It's about money and rounding out the team for me.

I've admitted this before, aesthetically I rather not get three maxes. That's not why I'm saying I want other players instead of a max PG. So you can't hold that against me. Whatever I say is my opinion.

And I must say this again, DO I think a max PG would mean no championship for us? No. I'm not as confident in it as I would be rounding out the team.

RunningJumper said:

Not true. I'm against getting a max PG. I'm not opposed to getting Nash, who is still a superstar and probably the best offensive PG in the game. Has NOTHING to do with D'Antoni. It's about money and rounding out the team for me.

I've admitted this before, aesthetically I rather not get three maxes. That's not why I'm saying I want other players instead of a max PG. So you can't hold that against me. Whatever I say is my opinion.

And I must say this again, DO I think a max PG would mean no championship for us? No. I'm not as confident in it as I would be rounding out the team.

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Having a position based on aesthetics is absurd and not worth debating.

TR1LL10N said:

Having a position based on aesthetics is absurd and not worth debating.

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Of course. If I was GM, I wouldn't base it off of that. I'm just letting you know that a lot of us don't just have a hatred for D'Antoni.

TR1LL10N said:

Rono,

What you fail to realize is that the issue of CP3 and people on this board not wanting him ultimately boils down to their hatred of MDA. Subconsciously or consciously they want MDA to fail to vindicate their stance therefore do not want to see us acquire players that possibly could compliment his system. Red and others would have no problem obtaining D12 over CP3 because that fits their prejudice and desire for size so don't be fooled by this 3 Max argument. It's about them wanting THEIR idea of 3 max players.

This hatred leads to absurd stances that would have us forgo a legit superstar for draft picks!!

Click to expand...

The obsurdity of wanting to go another route other than having a great player on your team is simply not rational/ logical. Infact it's a little crazy ime.

These are the same people that watched year after year as we couldn't get it done w one of the best big men of all time.

There are many ways to win people. The most straight foward way is to have the best player. It simply does not matter what position said player plays. It goes back to my Bob Knight example.. It's basketball 101 people. I don't know how I can put it more simply.

If people just clear their mind of all opinions, assumptions and prejudices and say: Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, and Amar'e Stoudemire....or, Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire, and Dwight Howard....and still have an argument for a handful of ragtag ass B-list players...I dunno, I. just. don't. know.

The NBA would cease to exist if Dwight joined those two. It would no longer be the NBA, it would be the NKA.

Getting CP3 puts us extremely close to that as well. I still think Paul wants to be here more than Dwight does (silly ass guy he is, yea?) But you can't go wrong either way. And at the end of the day, we WILL end up with one of the three big name free agents-to-be, and it will lead to some pretty lopsided games and it will lead to some bank when I sell some of my season tix, lol. But there's no reason to even argue against it, it's futile...it's gonna happen.

NYallDay said:

i cant seem to fathom how people are not getting you!
the freakin heat came 2 wins within winning a championship and guaranteed will be favored to win it all whenever next season starts.
dont gimme that bs about how dallas won and all that, dallas won after like 10 tries. Aside from D12, no only is CP3 the best player we can get, but his skillset will have the GREATEST IMPACT!

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MIA had the chance to sign players for less than max money. 2 wins away but STILL NEEDING SIZE...hello!?!?

ronoranina said:

There you go Red.. :thumbsup:

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Thank you Ron, I read your post.

1. As I said, name a team who won WITH 3 max contract players and...
you couldn't. "MAX TYPE" players fits YOUR argument. Max as in spending money fits mine. But nice try.

2. Front court means PF & C Ron. Comprehend?

3. It does matter how we acquire the talent Ron, because there are cap ramifications and bird rights (historically) to consider. smh.

4. Amare is on a max contract Ron, get a clue.

TR1LL10N said:

Rono,

What you fail to realize is that the issue of CP3 and people on this board not wanting him ultimately boils down to their hatred of MDA. Subconsciously or consciously they want MDA to fail to vindicate their stance therefore do not want to see us acquire players that possibly could compliment his system. Red and others would have no problem obtaining D12 over CP3 because that fits their prejudice and desire for size so don't be fooled by this 3 Max argument. It's about them wanting THEIR idea of 3 max players.

This hatred leads to absurd stances that would have us forgo a legit superstar for draft picks!!

Click to expand...

Wow, after months of posting the same sh*t over and over you amaze me. Spin it up Trill, keep on spinnin'.... lol

Say it with me...

Misappropriation of funds. Meaning spending money (the maximum amount) and not filling a position of need. Easy as 1,2,3

nuckles2k2 said:

Not necessarily. I don't like MDA's system, I think it's flawed, I would prefer a more conventional inside/out system that produces higher percentage looks as opposed to the multitude of "open" lower percentage looks. As long as we're taking low percentage shots, we're going to have to be a gang offensive rebounding team, which leads to poor transition defense. Unless we have a team of sharpshooters...

But all of that being said...I'll take CP3, Dwight, or Deron...you don't pass up on that kind of talent, ever. Doesn't matter who the coach is, when you have three complimentary starters from the last All-Star game (assuming we get CP3 or Dwight, Deron ain't half bad tho.)

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True, as we've stated to no end. Who stated IF CP3 can be had don't get him? What we've stated is simple math...

No CENTER or defense as been illustrated time after time... (LOOK SPINNERS THERES THAT WORD AGAIN>> DEFENSE)

equals no chip.

I don't know what else to say.

We've used historical data
We've seen our own demise for YEARS
We use common sense

But NOOOOO they refuse to accept what's been proven

nuckles2k2 said:

Plus those three guys all fill positions of need anyway, unless the likes of Turiaf and Billups will be our starting 1s and 5s going forward.

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And after waiting for Lebron, tanking and fielding a joke, after placing near to last in almost every relevant defensive category for years
after witnessing what happens with a lack of size (no homo) and a lack of depth you would think this lesson has been learned.

And Trill you're sad. You were all over Felton's d*ck, even admitted MOA wasn't the right coach for this team and now you come with this?

Pathetic. Keep drinking that kool-aid and spinnin'....




They spinnin' n*gga they spinnin"!

Signing CP3 isn't the mistake, spending all our remaining money on him and NOT addressing our needs with a viable center (do your research Kool-aid spinners and see the market value for this type of player IF not drafted)

is clearly an exercise in how to sell more tickets, not winning chips.

Show me some evidence that disputes this. WE have already presented data that validates this assertion.

We're waiting.

Ron & Trill take a seat, your love-fest with CP3 and MOA blinds you.