CENTER -vs- CP3 redux:

Red

TYPE-A
To all of those who think we should forgo another max and get a center, I need you to answer a few questions.

Who is this center that you want? Can he be acquired right now? Can he also be acquired with the MLE?

It's about priorities. Get a center now either through FA, trade, or possibly draft next year

-vs-

banking on CP3 during 2012 free agency.

For the purposes of this thread we WILL ASSUME:

1. CP3 will command a MAX contract
2. We don't have any idea about the new CBA
3. IF CP3 CAN be had for Billups contract during the season we'd take it

So lets go...

Here is a list of the top 50 Centers:

2010-2011 NBA Player Rankings
Rnk Player Team GP MPG FG% FT% 3PT% Pts Reb Ast Blk St TO FIC FIC40 RV
1 Dwight Howard ORL 84 38.0 .596 .604 .000 23.2 14.2 1.3 2.35 1.32 3.7 1669 20.9 +49
2 Al Horford ATL 91 35.4 .537 .796 .333 14.7 9.3 3.4 1.01 0.74 1.5 1350 16.8 +259
3 Al Jefferson UTA 82 35.9 .496 .761 .000 18.6 9.7 1.8 1.87 0.56 1.3 1209 16.4 +45
4 Marc Gasol MEM 95 33.0 .525 .738 .333 12.2 7.6 2.4 1.73 0.93 1.8 1132 14.5 +427
5 Tyson Chandler DAL 95 28.8 .640 .721 .000 9.6 9.3 0.4 1.04 0.52 1.1 1059 15.5 +45
6 Nene Hilario DEN 80 30.7 .606 .696 .200 14.5 7.7 2.0 0.96 1.11 1.8 1024 16.7 +57
7 Brook Lopez NJN 83 35.1 .492 .790 .000 20.4 5.9 1.6 1.45 0.58 2.1 936 12.9 +639
8 Andrew Bogut MIL 65 35.3 .495 .442 .000 12.8 11.1 2.0 2.58 0.72 1.9 894 15.6 +61
9 Joakim Noah CHI 64 32.9 .498 .736 .000 10.9 10.3 2.3 1.64 1.00 1.7 872 16.6 +465
10 JaVale McGee WAS 79 27.8 .550 .583 .000 10.1 8.0 0.5 2.44 0.52 1.3 844 15.4 +1003
11 Andrew Bynum LAL 64 28.4 .568 .686 .000 11.8 9.4 1.3 1.88 0.38 1.5 825 18.1 +28
12 Roy Hibbert IND 86 27.6 .460 .743 .000 12.5 7.5 2.0 1.76 0.41 2.3 817 13.8 +925
13 Marcus Camby POR 65 26.3 .402 .597 .500 4.6 10.2 2.0 1.55 0.68 1.0 710 16.6 +46
14 DeAndre Jordan LAC 80 25.6 .686 .452 .000 7.1 7.2 0.5 1.77 0.51 1.3 708 13.8 +1848
15 Samuel Dalembert SAC 80 24.2 .473 .730 .000 8.1 8.2 0.8 1.45 0.45 1.6 684 14.1 +23
16 Spencer Hawes PHI 87 21.0 .457 .533 .237 7.0 5.6 1.5 0.84 0.33 1.2 545 11.9 +454
17 Kwame Brown CHA 66 26.0 .517 .589 .000 7.9 6.8 0.7 0.59 0.39 1.0 482 11.2 +1811
18 Darko Milicic MIN 70 24.4 .468 .556 .000 8.8 5.2 1.5 2.04 0.79 2.2 470 11.0 +269
19 Brendan Haywood DAL 90 17.8 .575 .382 .000 4.2 5.0 0.3 1.02 0.20 0.7 453 11.3 +117
20 Andris Biedrins GSW 59 23.7 .534 .323 .000 5.0 7.2 1.0 0.88 0.88 1.0 447 12.8 +66
21 Nazr Mohammed OKC 89 16.0 .514 .582 .000 6.4 4.5 0.3 0.70 0.38 0.9 435 12.2 +111
22 Ben Wallace DET 57 22.8 .459 .333 .500 2.9 6.4 1.4 0.95 1.00 0.8 431 13.3 +597
23 Nenad Krstic BOS 78 20.9 .513 .772 .000 7.5 4.4 0.4 0.37 0.32 0.8 407 10.0 +161
24 Ronny Turiaf NYK 70 17.9 .633 .618 .000 4.2 3.2 1.5 1.17 0.53 0.7 395 12.6 +260
25 Brad Miller HOU 60 16.9 .446 .830 .374 6.4 3.7 2.4 0.35 0.47 0.9 393 15.5 +223
26 Zaza Pachulia ATL 92 16.0 .458 .751 .000 4.3 4.3 0.8 0.25 0.39 0.9 391 10.6 +229
27 Joel Anthony MIA 99 21.1 .480 .645 .000 2.2 3.7 0.4 1.38 0.18 0.5 384 7.4 +320
28 Jeff Foster IND 61 16.9 .486 .536 .000 3.3 6.1 0.8 0.57 0.43 0.5 381 14.8 +106
29 Zydrunas Ilgauskas MIA 82 15.4 .504 .769 .000 4.9 3.9 0.4 0.76 0.28 0.7 338 10.7 +906
30 Chris Kaman LAC 32 26.2 .471 .754 .000 12.4 7.0 1.4 1.50 0.50 1.8 290 13.9 +15
31 Kendrick Perkins OKC 46 26.5 .495 .562 .000 5.5 7.3 0.8 0.85 0.28 1.8 276 9.0 +102
32 Shaquille O'Neal BOS 42 19.4 .671 .538 .000 8.8 4.6 0.7 1.00 0.45 1.5 272 13.4 +0
33 Robin Lopez PHX 67 14.8 .501 .740 .000 6.4 3.2 0.1 0.67 0.27 0.7 261 10.5 +615
34 Ryan Hollins CLE 72 16.9 .599 .688 .000 5.4 2.7 0.4 0.61 0.32 1.0 239 7.9 +469
35 Johan Petro NJN 79 11.8 .450 .536 .000 3.6 2.8 0.6 0.46 0.44 0.6 208 8.9 +305
36 Erick Dampier MIA 51 16.0 .584 .545 .000 2.5 3.5 0.4 0.92 0.27 0.6 201 9.9 +1722
37 Aaron Gray NOH 47 13.1 .580 .476 .000 3.2 4.1 0.4 0.30 0.28 0.8 163 10.6 +1125
38 Jermaine O'Neal BOS 36 18.9 .452 .694 .000 5.4 4.0 0.6 1.42 0.11 1.1 147 8.6 +117
39 Timofey Mozgov DEN 47 11.8 .482 .714 .000 3.7 2.7 0.4 0.60 0.36 0.9 131 9.5 +246
40 Francisco Elson UTA 62 9.8 .478 .839 .000 2.2 1.9 0.5 0.23 0.34 0.5 127 8.3 +1287
41 Kosta Koufos DEN 52 8.4 .457 .558 .000 3.1 2.5 0.1 0.48 0.19 0.6 126 11.6 +809
42 Hilton Armstrong ATL 61 8.6 .469 .487 .500 1.6 2.3 0.2 0.34 0.34 0.5 120 9.2 +1275
43 Dan Gadzuric GSW 42 11.0 .419 .370 .000 2.8 3.2 0.3 0.69 0.31 0.7 112 9.7 +61
44 Joel Przybilla POR 36 14.4 .568 .518 .000 1.8 4.0 0.4 0.42 0.14 0.8 103 7.9 +49
45 Jason Collins ATL 62 12.2 .506 .608 1.000 1.9 2.0 0.4 0.19 0.23 0.5 88 4.7 +1230
46 DJ Mbenga NOH 46 7.7 .490 .700 .000 1.4 2.0 0.2 0.63 0.15 0.5 87 9.8 +1228
47 Hamed Haddadi MEM 41 5.1 .479 .677 .000 2.2 2.0 0.1 0.44 0.07 0.4 86 16.4 +603
48 Alexis Ajinca DAL 34 10.0 .444 .722 .353 4.2 2.3 0.3 0.56 0.32 0.5 85 10.0 +660
49 Melvin Ely DEN 30 12.2 .549 .619 .000 2.3 2.5 0.5 0.37 0.13 0.5 75 8.2 +1187
50 Kyrylo Fesenko UTA 53 8.6 .440 .391 .000 2.0 2.0 0.3 0.30 0.08 0.5 71 6.2 +911


Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/src_pl...n=2010-2011&filter=c&highlight=#ixzz1SN8XYi9R

Reasons why we should prioritize a center above targeting a MAX PG free agent next year:

1. We already have 2 Max contract scorers
2. We suck a$$ on defense
3. MOA sucks a$$ on defense and needs a center to compensate for his incompetence and lack of teaching ability
4. A center should be cheaper providing more options
5. Amare is better stats wise next to a center allowing him to play his natural position
6. Top ten defensive teams are more likely to win chips
7. A center can and should impact a teams defense more than a PG
8. Centers are rarer than PG's
9. Two max scorers who lack defense need a center more than a star PG
10. MOA probably won't be here as the FO has little to no confidence in him, stop advancing his agenda while we can
11. We can compete now rather than going through another transition year hoping
12. We would learn from our mistakes
13. Its been ten years since we had a viable center
14. We could attract better talent once we prove we can play defense
15. Who wants Jared Jeffries getting that pass under the hoop for a game winner?


LET'S GET IT ON!
 

Red

TYPE-A
Transplanted from the Kwame Brown Thread

Many facets to consider and we can start with your question...

The argument as you stated is really putting our eggs in one basket (PG), or spreading the wealth to acquire possibly more than one player- starting with a center.

We can name centers who are available through FA, centers who we covet based on their skill set, and future projected FA.

IT's about the approach. Once we decide on the approach (really priorities) then choices can be made.

CP3 is NOT worth standing pat would mean...

We can shop/trade for a center who matches contracts either alone or combined between Billups, Fields, TD, Turiaf, Rautins, Shump, Balkman, or Jorts.

In effect it saying (admitting) NONE of these players is a keeper. EVERYONE of theses players (including a 2nd round pick if we still have that) is expendable and SHOULD be prioritized less than A STARTING CENTER.

You see? Then like ALL THE CP3 supporters are willing to concede... we will have to fill out our roster with cheap role players/vets.

THE DIFFERENCE IS: by sacrificing an EXPENDABLE player for a STARTER the replacement [filler] can be another expendable player (non starter).

SO the list of possible centers is longer than you think. BUT the point is it starts by ADMITTING a starting center minus ANYONE but STat & Melo would be better both long and short term.



I've covered this above your post. Again it's about prioritizing. Right now with Stat & Melo (and all the historical quantitative data available) we are arguing what's best for them NOW...

A Starting Center
A Max Starting PG on the horizon.

Both have built-in sacrifices.

The last point I would like to make is this...

Earlier this year before we traded Felton Gallo and co. we were proposing trades.

I proposed trading Gallo, Curry, (maybe Chandler and more)- whoever matched contracts $, but basically the same trade we made BUT FOR ANDREW BYNUM.

I know some were/are saying the Lakers wouldn't do it etc... I offered reasons why they might consider it. Gallo was emerging, Chandler could help, maybe Felton could replace Fisher, they still had Pau, Bynum's contract was ending, etc...

People said he was injury prone, some LIKE TRILL considered it.

BUT HERE'S MY POINT.

WE acquired MELO for basically that exact same trade (!!!!!), and I know partly because MELO forced his way, but look at it like this....

A team would rather get rid of a top prolific scorer and get depth and some scoring in return than a big like Bynum who is still very young. Not exactly cheap but cheaper than Melo.

In effect, if you argued that the Lakers wouldn't do this... then you are arguing the point that a CENTER is probably the most coveted position on WINNING squads- short of being led by Michael Jordan.

Think about that.

Prioritize the center, get creative, sacrifice whoever/whatever besides STAT & MELO to continue building our core with a less than MAX center and let the rest follow.

Open your eyes to the possibility to a viable center to continue our positive direction. All we need is a team to bite. we have time, so don't assume its CP3 or bust just yet.

Think about that.
 

Thugball

Benchwarmer
Wow, the list shows how weak the center position is in the NBA. Dwight Howard should not even be mentioned with the rest of those guys.
 

knickscity

Benchwarmer
Very long post to state the obvious.

Yeah we need a center.

We also need a real point guard to get the offense flowing like it should.

We aren't getting a center in a draft.

Most of the top bigs on your list will most likely stay with their current teams, or are totally unavailable, plus that list make the center look awful.

Vets min at center, then give me CP3.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
Let me begin by just stating the obvious... again.

Other than Howard, none of those guys are worth acquiring before CP3. Period.

You seriously have to stop this..

It's just foolishness at this point.
 
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NBA Player Rankings
Rnk Player Team GP MPG FG% FT% 3PT% Pts Reb Ast Blk St TO FIC FIC40 RV
1 Dwight Howard ORL 84 38.0 .596 .604 .000 23.2 14.2 1.3 2.35 1.32 3.7 1669 20.9 +49
2 Al Horford ATL 91 35.4 .537 .796 .333 14.7 9.3 3.4 1.01 0.74 1.5 1350 16.8 +259
3 Al Jefferson UTA 82 35.9 .496 .761 .000 18.6 9.7 1.8 1.87 0.56 1.3 1209 16.4 +45
4 Marc Gasol MEM 95 33.0 .525 .738 .333 12.2 7.6 2.4 1.73 0.93 1.8 1132 14.5 +427
5 Tyson Chandler DAL 95 28.8 .640 .721 .000 9.6 9.3 0.4 1.04 0.52 1.1 1059 15.5 +45
6 Nene Hilario DEN 80 30.7 .606 .696 .200 14.5 7.7 2.0 0.96 1.11 1.8 1024 16.7 +57
7 Brook Lopez NJN 83 35.1 .492 .790 .000 20.4 5.9 1.6 1.45 0.58 2.1 936 12.9 +639
8 Andrew Bogut MIL 65 35.3 .495 .442 .000 12.8 11.1 2.0 2.58 0.72 1.9 894 15.6 +61
9 Joakim Noah CHI 64 32.9 .498 .736 .000 10.9 10.3 2.3 1.64 1.00 1.7 872 16.6 +465
10 JaVale McGee WAS 79 27.8 .550 .583 .000 10.1 8.0 0.5 2.44 0.52 1.3 844 15.4 +1003
11 Andrew Bynum LAL 64 28.4 .568 .686 .000 11.8 9.4 1.3 1.88 0.38 1.5 825 18.1 +28
12 Roy Hibbert IND 86 27.6 .460 .743 .000 12.5 7.5 2.0 1.76 0.41 2.3 817 13.8 +925
13 Marcus Camby POR 65 26.3 .402 .597 .500 4.6 10.2 2.0 1.55 0.68 1.0 710 16.6 +46
14 DeAndre Jordan LAC 80 25.6 .686 .452 .000 7.1 7.2 0.5 1.77 0.51 1.3 708 13.8 +1848
15 Samuel Dalembert SAC 80 24.2 .473 .730 .000 8.1 8.2 0.8 1.45 0.45 1.6 684 14.1 +23
16 Spencer Hawes PHI 87 21.0 .457 .533 .237 7.0 5.6 1.5 0.84 0.33 1.2 545 11.9 +454
17 Kwame Brown CHA 66 26.0 .517 .589 .000 7.9 6.8 0.7 0.59 0.39 1.0 482 11.2 +1811
18 Darko Milicic MIN 70 24.4 .468 .556 .000 8.8 5.2 1.5 2.04 0.79 2.2 470 11.0 +269
19 Brendan Haywood DAL 90 17.8 .575 .382 .000 4.2 5.0 0.3 1.02 0.20 0.7 453 11.3 +117
20 Andris Biedrins GSW 59 23.7 .534 .323 .000 5.0 7.2 1.0 0.88 0.88 1.0 447 12.8 +66
21 Nazr Mohammed OKC 89 16.0 .514 .582 .000 6.4 4.5 0.3 0.70 0.38 0.9 435 12.2 +111
22 Ben Wallace DET 57 22.8 .459 .333 .500 2.9 6.4 1.4 0.95 1.00 0.8 431 13.3 +597
23 Nenad Krstic BOS 78 20.9 .513 .772 .000 7.5 4.4 0.4 0.37 0.32 0.8 407 10.0 +161
24 Ronny Turiaf NYK 70 17.9 .633 .618 .000 4.2 3.2 1.5 1.17 0.53 0.7 395 12.6 +260
25 Brad Miller HOU 60 16.9 .446 .830 .374 6.4 3.7 2.4 0.35 0.47 0.9 393 15.5 +223
26 Zaza Pachulia ATL 92 16.0 .458 .751 .000 4.3 4.3 0.8 0.25 0.39 0.9 391 10.6 +229
27 Joel Anthony MIA 99 21.1 .480 .645 .000 2.2 3.7 0.4 1.38 0.18 0.5 384 7.4 +320
28 Jeff Foster IND 61 16.9 .486 .536 .000 3.3 6.1 0.8 0.57 0.43 0.5 381 14.8 +106
29 Zydrunas Ilgauskas MIA 82 15.4 .504 .769 .000 4.9 3.9 0.4 0.76 0.28 0.7 338 10.7 +906
30 Chris Kaman LAC 32 26.2 .471 .754 .000 12.4 7.0 1.4 1.50 0.50 1.8 290 13.9 +15
31 Kendrick Perkins OKC 46 26.5 .495 .562 .000 5.5 7.3 0.8 0.85 0.28 1.8 276 9.0 +102
32 Shaquille O'Neal BOS 42 19.4 .671 .538 .000 8.8 4.6 0.7 1.00 0.45 1.5 272 13.4 +0
33 Robin Lopez PHX 67 14.8 .501 .740 .000 6.4 3.2 0.1 0.67 0.27 0.7 261 10.5 +615
34 Ryan Hollins CLE 72 16.9 .599 .688 .000 5.4 2.7 0.4 0.61 0.32 1.0 239 7.9 +469
35 Johan Petro NJN 79 11.8 .450 .536 .000 3.6 2.8 0.6 0.46 0.44 0.6 208 8.9 +305
36 Erick Dampier MIA 51 16.0 .584 .545 .000 2.5 3.5 0.4 0.92 0.27 0.6 201 9.9 +1722
37 Aaron Gray NOH 47 13.1 .580 .476 .000 3.2 4.1 0.4 0.30 0.28 0.8 163 10.6 +1125
38 Jermaine O'Neal BOS 36 18.9 .452 .694 .000 5.4 4.0 0.6 1.42 0.11 1.1 147 8.6 +117
39 Timofey Mozgov DEN 47 11.8 .482 .714 .000 3.7 2.7 0.4 0.60 0.36 0.9 131 9.5 +246
40 Francisco Elson UTA 62 9.8 .478 .839 .000 2.2 1.9 0.5 0.23 0.34 0.5 127 8.3 +1287
41 Kosta Koufos DEN 52 8.4 .457 .558 .000 3.1 2.5 0.1 0.48 0.19 0.6 126 11.6 +809
42 Hilton Armstrong ATL 61 8.6 .469 .487 .500 1.6 2.3 0.2 0.34 0.34 0.5 120 9.2 +1275
43 Dan Gadzuric GSW 42 11.0 .419 .370 .000 2.8 3.2 0.3 0.69 0.31 0.7 112 9.7 +61
44 Joel Przybilla POR 36 14.4 .568 .518 .000 1.8 4.0 0.4 0.42 0.14 0.8 103 7.9 +49
45 Jason Collins ATL 62 12.2 .506 .608 1.000 1.9 2.0 0.4 0.19 0.23 0.5 88 4.7 +1230
46 DJ Mbenga NOH 46 7.7 .490 .700 .000 1.4 2.0 0.2 0.63 0.15 0.5 87 9.8 +1228
47 Hamed Haddadi MEM 41 5.1 .479 .677 .000 2.2 2.0 0.1 0.44 0.07 0.4 86 16.4 +603
48 Alexis Ajinca DAL 34 10.0 .444 .722 .353 4.2 2.3 0.3 0.56 0.32 0.5 85 10.0 +660
49 Melvin Ely DEN 30 12.2 .549 .619 .000 2.3 2.5 0.5 0.37 0.13 0.5 75 8.2 +1187
50 Kyrylo Fesenko UTA 53 8.6 .440 .391 .000 2.0 2.0 0.3 0.30 0.08 0.5 71 6.2 +911
I stopped reading the list after it showed Nenad Kristic, Brad Miller and Spencer Hawes in front of Kenderick Perkins and Chris Kaman.
 

STAT1

Starter
Red, I would have taken Melo over Bynum too. Look, when you have a chance to get an ELITE talent in the NBA, you go for it. Those types of players are the hardest to come by. Bynum would have been a very nice acquisition, but for the price we gave up for Melo I wouldn't have even considered it, & I wager neither would have the NY Knicks or any other NBA team. If we were talking about choosing between either Dwight Howard or Melo, then I would have taken Dwight Howard, but all we're doing here is talking in dream scenario hypotheticals here. What we DO know is that we got 1 of the best players in the NBA on our roster now to partner with STAT to build the foundation of our franchise. If I had to do that trade over again I would have done it everytime. I'm happy with that.

As for the issue about targetting CP3 in 2012 or going after a C now, once again, what C's are we talking about here? We don't have the cap space to target any C's that are even worthwhile at this point. We're talking about choosing between someone like Sam Dalembert at the absolute best right now over waiting out a season for names like Deron, CP3, D12, Nash, Bynum, etc. in 2012. Is that even worth debating at this point? Not for me. & My guess is the Knicks aren't even considering bypassing a chance at stars like that next year just so they can lock up a role playing C now.

Now if you want to argue that we'd be better off using up our cap space in 2012 for 2 guys like Nash & Bynum over investing it all on CP3, then you have a much more interesting argument. I could see a lot of valid reasons why it might be better using up cap space next summer on 2 very good players to fill more holes than just 1 elite one, but we're not at that point yet where we can even have that discussion until we know exactly what the next CBA will entail.
 

Red

TYPE-A
I stopped reading the list after it showed Nenad Kristic, Brad Miller and Spencer Hawes in front of Kenderick Perkins and Chris Kaman.
Not sure if the spotting on the list is based on value/performance vs current $

The point is to see how few are viable

Yea, there are definitely some issues re where some of the players are positioned. Why is Bogut not in the top 5?

And obviously teams have different values on different players (like a draft board)

I'm not asking if we agree on the seeding.

I'm showing how few and far between centers are, and asserting that they can help us more in many ways if we prioritize one of them above a Max PG GIVEN OUR CURRENT STATE, history, and future projection.

I won't be mad if we got CP3; i'd be mad if we got CP3 and remained at the bottom defensively without addressing this dificiency.

As you can see there aren't many to go around that will affect the bottom line defensive figures.

If we post a PG list, there should be plenty, amicable options.

I vote if we can, trade for a center now instead of hoping for CP3. Nash & Lopez is MORE than a reasonable person can expect but fine... and if people say Lopez s*cks then all the better.

Nash will expire, Lopez can be part of that "platoon". Or if feasible, sign Kwame (who knew he would rank #17) and try and trade for a high pick- at least if we can draft a starting center $ won't really matter.

But its inevitable, we're going to need one- they need time to develop, we can't go into another season with this built-in excuse about who we don't have for MOA.

It behooves MOA to not wait and finally fill the center gap now so there are no excuses.

Trade anyone, any pick, except Stat & Melo for a viable center now if we plan on winning something.
 

finestrg

Rotation player
Very good post. Seems to be the two main areas we need to upgrade -- center and future PG moving forward. I think about it all the time and I just don't know what the solution is. Took me a little bit but I've become a believer in Shumpert --- I think with Shumpert & Douglas, we look pretty good at PG right now...Center looks like more of a talent void to me between the two positions..Do we go out and burn most if not all existing cap room on a halfway decent center now and say F-it, let's go for it, the clock is ticking for Amar'e & Melo OR do we play it much more conservative (esp. not knowing what the new CBA will be) and look for low-cost options at C, leaving the bulk of the cap room intact for another top FA next summer.

Gun to my head, and maybe I'm wrong, I saw go for the latter and target a capable, low-salary option at center for the time being and conserve the cap room for one more year. What's another year?? STAT and Melo will still be in their prime (esp. Melo who's 2 yrs younger than Stoudemire) and the team as a whole will only be one step closer to something big (thinking about how all the ancillary pieces will all have another year under their belts and should improve -- TD, Shumpert, Fields, etc.)..

First off, we need to figure out what Jordan and Jorts are all about and if they're NBA players. I mean, I keep calling for Dwayne Jones for his size and rebounding but maybe there's no need for him. Maybe Jordan and/or Harrellson are just as good. Maybe Jordan develops into a halfway decent skill C and Harrellson develops into a viable tough/imposing presence. Maybe in 2012 when Turiaf comes off the cap, Jordan/Jorts will be enough to both man the position together. I tell ya, not having summer league/training camp just KILLED US this year. We really needed it this year more than ever..It doesn't seem like a lot of time to evaluate players but it is. It was with Landry Fields..Hopefully the league and the players' assoc. get this crap ironed out soon where at least the regular season starts on time. Then we'd have no choice but to use the first few weeks of the season for evaluation. I mean what else could we do? What other choices will we have? Send both Jordan and Jorts to Erie right away to play and develop? I guess we could do that, but then who helps out Turiaf and Amar'e? We already saw last year, Turiaf/Amar'e isn't enough on the interior, esp. with regard to rebounding the ball. Not nearly enough. But I don't think we need to blow our load on a Marc Gasol-type either. To me, Marc Gasol or even a DeAndre Jordan does not equal championship which is why I'd refrain from doing something like that now (and I understand both Memphis and the LAC will probably keep both guys, just talking hypothetical for a second --- I mean that "type" of player where we will have to commit fairly significant funds to secure and then not have those funds there for 2012 when it'll count and much better players will be available).

Unless we could convince a guy like Sammy Dalembert to take a 1-yr deal (where maybe we overpay for that 1 yr a-la Chris Duhon to entice him -- though I couldn't see Dalembert settling for a 1-yr deal at this point in his career. Someone out there will offer more than that, more years), I say stay the course for 1 more season, as tough as that sounds, and keep the funds open for a real difference maker. To me, Marc Gasol or a DeAndre Jordan ARE NOT on the same level as a Chris Paul. And if we blow our load now, we won't even be in the running for a player like that..Go back to the summer of 2010 for a sec., actually up to a yr before that. Can you imagine if we pulled an Isiah Thomas and blew the cap room on marginal players instead of trading guys and creating cap room for Amar'e Stoudemire? I mean where would we be then? Donnie created a situation where we had cap room for 2 max guys. He got one of them and then offered the other spot to LeBron James. To me, despite James pussin' out and declining to come here, the plan was a rousing success. But can you imagine where we'd be if Donnie came in here and decided the way to go would've been to stick with and extend guys like Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph? Forget about it..That's why I'm so interested in 2012. We targeted 2010 and completely turned this franchise around..I'm willing to be patient and wait for 2012 and not blow our cap room on marginal talent now. To me, the proof is in the pudding -- it was a completely sound idea that worked 100% in 2010. It could work again..

Haing said that (and forgive me for rambling), go the low-cost, quick fix route now, if only for 1 more yr. This is how I'd look to "quick fix" the frontcourt right now and infuse with some good talent at a good price:

• Sign Marcus Cousin if Houston ever cuts him loose. My gut tells me they keep him, esp with Yao retiring, but you never know. This is my #1 C option on the cheap we could possibly get if he ever becomes available. We absolutely SHIT THE BED last year -- instead of fooling around with the completely useless Jared Jeffries, we could've gotten this guy, a legit C with plus skills, youth & upside. Cousin was available at different times last yr and we never showed any interest at all, even with the glaring need at center. I still to this day can't swallow it. Complete mistake. I can only hope Daryl Morey cuts him loose and the Knicks scoop him up. This guy's a factor in the NBA if he ever gets the proper PT, whether it's in Houston or somewhere else. Bank on it. I can only pray Houston has no idea what they really have with this kid and they cut him.

• Sign Dwayne Jones for his size and rebounding ability. Jordan/Jorts may be enough; then again they may not be. I'd like Mike to have 1 more C in the mix. To me, this guy would be perfect. Good size at 6"11" 250+ and he's been a deluxe rebounder wherever he's been and gotten PT. Turiaf and Amar'e together just aren't a good rebounding tandem at all. I don't get the feeling Jerome Jordan will be much of a factor on the glass either..Jorts could be, but the rest of his game may not be anywhere near NBA-ready...Jones would help. He brings a top-notch skill we could absolutely use. He's a round peg that fits in our round hole.

• Sign Jeff Adrien. He was cut by GS a couple of weeks ago before the lockout and is available. Not saying he's Ken Faried, he probably isn't, but he's close to that type of player. Rebounding and toughness. We could use him. Go get him. Bottom line, I'd rather have Shumpert AND Adrien over Faried by himself.

• Sign either Joe Alexander or DeShawn Sims. Outside of Amar'e, what other big on this roster can score the ball in the post (and I'm not talking Melo---BIGS)? Answer: no one. Each one of these guys can. Alexander's a world-class athlete with decent skills; Sims probably has a more defined game with his post-up ability and 3-pt shooting. Both guys were awesome in the D-league last year and have considerable upside..Either guy would greatly improve the bench and the frontcourt as a whole.

• They need to figure out what direction to go at backup 3 -- either bring Shawne Williams back or, if he holds us up for too much money, I'd go out on a limb and bring in either Jamelle Horne or Tim Abromaitis (in that order) for that role. We could get either guy for peanuts. Both guys have good ability and could replace Williams' outside shooting off the bench, probably for far less money. Either guy could be even better than Williams actually.

Dwayne Jones (Cousin's a long shot -- I'm assuming he won't be available)
Jeff Adrien
Alexander or Sims
Williams, Horne or Abromaitis

Those are the guys we should be considering right now. Buy out Renaldo Balkman if need be to open up a roster spot. Maybe Derrick Brown too (honestly, I don't see how this guy fits at all unless they grabbed him to be a future trade asset)..Go this route, add talent on the cheap for the time being, and continue to keep both eyes on 2012 FA. That'd be my plan. I think that's the way to go.
 
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Red

TYPE-A
Red, I would have taken Melo over Bynum too. Look, when you have a chance to get an ELITE talent in the NBA, you go for it. Those types of players are the hardest to come by. Bynum would have been a very nice acquisition, but for the price we gave up for Melo I wouldn't have even considered it, & I wager neither would have the NY Knicks or any other NBA team. If we were talking about choosing between either Dwight Howard or Melo, then I would have taken Dwight Howard, but all we're doing here is talking in dream scenario hypotheticals here. What we DO know is that we got 1 of the best players in the NBA on our roster now to partner with STAT to build the foundation of our franchise. If I had to do that trade over again I would have done it everytime. I'm happy with that.

As for the issue about targetting CP3 in 2012 or going after a C now, once again, what C's are we talking about here? We don't have the cap space to target any C's that are even worthwhile at this point. We're talking about choosing between someone like Sam Dalembert at the absolute best right now over waiting out a season for names like Deron, CP3, D12, Nash, Bynum, etc. in 2012. Is that even worth debating at this point? Not for me. & My guess is the Knicks aren't even considering bypassing a chance at stars like that next year just so they can lock up a role playing C now.

Now if you want to argue that we'd be better off using up our cap space in 2012 for 2 guys like Nash & Bynum over investing it all on CP3, then you have a much more interesting argument. I could see a lot of valid reasons why it might be better using up cap space next summer on 2 very good players to fill more holes than just 1 elite one, but we're not at that point yet where we can even have that discussion until we know exactly what the next CBA will entail.

Nah... I'm not beefing that we got Melo. I was showing the Value of a star like Melo was near if not less than a youngster center like Bynum (to those who thought the Lakers wouldn't do that)

I know it was hypothetical, I was just making a point- that we couldn't even get a player like Bynum for the same price as a Melo.

Ron, stop spinning this into your own argument. We all agree who'd we rather have. We all agree CP3 is better than mostly the entire center list in terms of talent. No one is saying different.

As expressed above it's the priority of acquiring a max CP3 contract above a center given our situation. Don't be silly.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Very good post. Seems to be the two main areas we need to upgrade -- center and future PG moving forward. I think about it all the time and I just don't know what the solution is. Took me a little bit but I've become a believer in Shumpert --- I think with Shumpert & Douglas, we look pretty good at PG right now...Center looks like more of a talent void to me between the two positions..Do we go out and burn most if not all existing cap room on a halfway decent center now and say F-it, let's go for it, the clock is ticking for Amar'e & Melo OR do we play it much more conservative (esp. not knowing what the new CBA will be) and look for low-cost options at C, leaving the bulk of the cap room intact for another top FA next summer.

Gun to my head, and maybe I'm wrong, I saw go for the latter and target a capable, low-salary option at center for the time being and conserve the cap room for one more year. What's another year?? STAT and Melo will still be in their prime (esp. Melo who's 2 yrs younger than Stoudemire) and the team as a whole will only be one step closer to something big (thinking about how all the ancillary pieces will all have another year under their belts and should improve -- TD, Shumpert, Fields, etc.)..

If we can trade anyone except Billups, Stat & Melo, for a center we would still have 14mil expiring coming off the cap.

If we get picks and can draft one, we'll have enough for CP3, although development will be an issue.

If we can get a Nash & Lopez we will have another expiring with some service from the two positions we need.

Gonna need someone, better decide our approach or it'll be wait til' next year, year after year...

and i agree... we still have some evaluating to do with our youngsters Jordan, Shump, Fields, and Jort
 

finestrg

Rotation player
Red, I would have taken Melo over Bynum too. Look, when you have a chance to get an ELITE talent in the NBA, you go for it. Those types of players are the hardest to come by. Bynum would have been a very nice acquisition, but for the price we gave up for Melo I wouldn't have even considered it, & I wager neither would have the NY Knicks or any other NBA team. If we were talking about choosing between either Dwight Howard or Melo, then I would have taken Dwight Howard, but all we're doing here is talking in dream scenario hypotheticals here. What we DO know is that we got 1 of the best players in the NBA on our roster now to partner with STAT to build the foundation of our franchise. If I had to do that trade over again I would have done it everytime. I'm happy with that.

As for the issue about targetting CP3 in 2012 or going after a C now, once again, what C's are we talking about here? We don't have the cap space to target any C's that are even worthwhile at this point. We're talking about choosing between someone like Sam Dalembert at the absolute best right now over waiting out a season for names like Deron, CP3, D12, Nash, Bynum, etc. in 2012. Is that even worth debating at this point? Not for me. & My guess is the Knicks aren't even considering bypassing a chance at stars like that next year just so they can lock up a role playing C now.

Now if you want to argue that we'd be better off using up our cap space in 2012 for 2 guys like Nash & Bynum over investing it all on CP3, then you have a much more interesting argument. I could see a lot of valid reasons why it might be better using up cap space next summer on 2 very good players to fill more holes than just 1 elite one, but we're not at that point yet where we can even have that discussion until we know exactly what the next CBA will entail.

Good post. Quality as usually brother...Instead of ramblin' on, I should've just read your post first and gave it the old +1. LOL.
 

STAT1

Starter
The only possible trade I can think of that we can offer up right now that might land us a decent C without giving up any of our big 3 is something along the lines of Landry Fields, Turiaf & Jorts for Javale McGee, but who's to say the Wizards would even be interested in trading their young C away, especially to help out a conference rival team that will be fighting for a playoff spot too? Otherwise we could probably offer up a similar package to try & land Greg Oden from POR, but he comes with his own set of big question marks too. I'm sure we can talk about hypothetical trade scenarios all day long if we really wanted to, but we have no way of knowing how realistic those ideas are. All we can do is deal in the here & now, & what we can control right now is who we decide to target in free agency this summer. Our options are very limited because of our cap situation, all of us need to realize that.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Everyone on that list from 16 down can be acquired with the MLE, and everyone from 15 up is unavailable unless Dwight forces a trade here, or signs with us. We'll know if there is or isn't an MLE long before we make any sort of moves, because for a move to be made...there has to be a CBA. If there is an MLE...we can get CP3, and anyone on that list 16-50 (barring the ones no longer in the league.)

I'm still not getting it.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
Nah... I'm not beefing that we got Melo. I was showing the Value of a star like Melo was near if not less than a youngster center like Bynum (to those who thought the Lakers wouldn't do that)

I know it was hypothetical, I was just making a point- that we couldn't even get a player like Bynum for the same price as a Melo.

Ron, stop spinning this into your own argument. We all agree who'd we rather have. We all agree CP3 is better than mostly the entire center list in terms of talent. No one is saying different.

As expressed above it's the priority of acquiring a max CP3 contract above a center given our situation. Don't be silly.



Lol.. I'm not spinning anything into my argument.

Look the only reason why anyone would advocate we wait on acquiring a C now is because there happen to be more talented players that will be available later. Talent... that is the central motivation for what many on the board, including myself, are proposing. It's the biggest factor in this whole redundant discussion. Nothing silly about that. There you go again arguing in circles. Nice.

Players A,B and C are better than what's available now and we will have the space, barring major CBA changes, so we wait. Simple.

You want us to overpay for a C now while simultaneously flushing our hopes at having a legit great player in 2012. finestr put this beautifully actually w re to Isiah's infamous moves and it's exactly what you're proposing.

You're on some Isiah Thomas type-ish Red.. Wake up! You get the best player here. Just check the rest at the door.

Your over-complicating this shet and it's making you sound like an idiot.
 

knicksman20

Benchwarmer
Put this guy in the starting lineup or make him Amare's backup. He is a good start to addressing our defense & rebounding deficiencies.

 
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