Sports Illustrated top 100 players................

If you're going to penalize Melo and Amar'e for being bad on defense, then why in the world are Durant and Griffin up there? Durant is terrible on defense, and Griffin is not only terrible on defense but a God-awful free throw shooter. How do they deserve to be that many spots above Melo and Amar'e? Amar'e and Griffin are both awful on defense, but Amar'e is a better FT shooter and Griffin a better rebounder, so they're about even. Melo is a more versatile scorer than Durant, other than that they're both similar in the sense that they're high volume scorers who aren't great defenders, the difference that Melo can actually play defense when he tries whereas Durant is a weak shit.

^^Rose is shit on defense too. He has a great supporting cast to mask those deficiencies tho..

Finally an article telling the truth about Nash's defense. He's not bad. Him saying he watched a ton of games last season wasn't a lie, he actually watched him.

Every freaking team has an "elite" PG these days. To me, Nash, Paul, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose are the ones that are truly at the top of the list.

Of course there's gonna be rankings we don't agree with. This is actually a good list, whether I agree with some spots or not. He didn't make a list of what people WANTED to see.

RunningJumper said:

Finally an article telling the truth about Nash's defense. He's not bad. Him saying he watched a ton of games last season wasn't a lie, he actually watched him.

Every freaking team has an "elite" PG these days. To me, Nash, Paul, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose are the ones that are truly at the top of the list.

Of course there's gonna be rankings we don't agree with. This is actually a good list, whether I agree with some spots or not. He didn't make a list of what people WANTED to see.

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Still doesn't explain why Monta is #44 and Rose is #9 when their numbers are more similar than people might think. That has nothing to do with the numbers, as this guy claimed his list is based on.

Just come out and say it's a subjective list and don't swear by the numbers, and then have Deron Williams as the 7th best two-way player in the league.

nuckles2k2 said:

Still doesn't explain why Monta is #44 and Rose is #9 when their numbers are more similar than people might think. That has nothing to do with the numbers, as this guy claimed his list is based on.

Just come out and say it's a subjective list and don't swear by the numbers, and then have Deron Williams as the 7th best two-way player in the league.

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Didn't look at the whole list.

Yeah, they're not THAT far apart. I'm a fan of Monta. He's efficient and is a good and willing passer.

As I said, there's some things I don't agree with/get, but it's not a HORRIBLE list.

Lol....Nick Collison made the list but Brandon Jennings didn't...

SSj4Wingzero said:

If you're going to penalize Melo and Amar'e for being bad on defense, then why in the world are Durant and Griffin up there? Durant is terrible on defense, and Griffin is not only terrible on defense but a God-awful free throw shooter. How do they deserve to be that many spots above Melo and Amar'e? Amar'e and Griffin are both awful on defense, but Amar'e is a better FT shooter and Griffin a better rebounder, so they're about even. Melo is a more versatile scorer than Durant, other than that they're both similar in the sense that they're high volume scorers who aren't great defenders, the difference that Melo can actually play defense when he tries whereas Durant is a weak shit.

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1. Because Durant is much better than Melo on defense. Really, every metric has Melo being awful on defense, while Durant is at least somewhat neutral on D if not above average at times. The Knicks were better on defense before Melo joined the team. And Durant is slightly more efficient based on eFG% and TS%, so coupling those together makes him ranked higher. Melo let his opposing SF shoot 53% eFG% against him, Durant's was at 48%. Melo really is a lazy defender, who CAN be a good one if he puts in the work. But that's an IF right now. I found their Synergy stats from 2 seasons ago, and Durant basically kills him in everything:

Kevin Durant
100% Overall: 0.82 PPP (44th)
21.2% Isolation: 0.73 PPP (51st)
12.7% P/R Ball: 0.58 PPP (4th)
6.5% Post-Up: 0.79 PPP (71st)
1.7% P/R Roll: 0.67 PPP (N/A)
36.0% Spot-Up: 0.95 PPP (155th)
8.8% Off-Screen: 0.89 PPP (65th)
5.1% Hand-Off: 0.57 PPP (9th)

Carmelo Anthony
100% Overall: 0.95 PPP (318th)
20.5% Isolation: 1.03 PPP (305th)
8.1% P/R Ball: 0.70 PPP (23rd)
11.2% Post-Up: 0.98 PPP (235th)
1.5% P/R Roll: 0.82 PPP (N/A)
40.2% Spot-Up: 1.01 PPP (231st)
10.0% Off-Screen: 0.89 PPP (99th)
4.0% Hand-Off: 0.87 PPP (47th)

I'm trying to find last season's, but I'm having trouble right now.

But basically Durant is more efficient scoring, and a better defender. And he's still only 22 so he has some potential to add to his game.

2. Griffin seems to be given a pass somewhat because he was a rookie and was "still learning" NBA defense and I would put Amare over him right now. However Blake has already shown to be a much much better rebounder and passer than Amare while scoring at a similar efficiency from the floor. And he turns it over less often than Amare. So I feel like he put him higher because Griffin will likely be a better player in 2+ years.

No shit the Knicks were better on defense before Melo joined because he joined a team mid-season in a system he was unfamiliar with so obviously the team wasn't going to be great right off the bat.

It's already obvious that Duratn tries harder on defense than Melo (hell, everybody in the league tries harder on defense than Melo) but Melo demonstrated his ability to be a lockdown man defender by shutting down LeBron James when they played the Heat. I've yet to see Durant display that type of ability.

2. Again, what about Griffin's piss-poor free throw shooting? He turns the ball over less than Amar'e does but he blocks fewer shots, has a much less versatile offensive game, and can't shoot free throws. I'm not going to say he's better than Amar'e yet...

SSj4Wingzero said:

No shit the Knicks were better on defense before Melo joined because he joined a team mid-season in a system he was unfamiliar with so obviously the team wasn't going to be great right off the bat.

It's already obvious that Duratn tries harder on defense than Melo (hell, everybody in the league tries harder on defense than Melo) but Melo demonstrated his ability to be a lockdown man defender by shutting down LeBron James when they played the Heat. I've yet to see Durant display that type of ability.

2. Again, what about Griffin's piss-poor free throw shooting? He turns the ball over less than Amar'e does but he blocks fewer shots, has a much less versatile offensive game, and can't shoot free throws. I'm not going to say he's better than Amar'e yet...

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He did improve his free throw shooting. He's not terrible.

SSj4Wingzero said:

It's already obvious that Duratn tries harder on defense than Melo (hell, everybody in the league tries harder on defense than Melo) but Melo demonstrated his ability to be a lockdown man defender by shutting down LeBron James when they played the Heat. I've yet to see Durant display that type of ability.

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And this somehow makes up for the rest of the time when Melo is loafing around on defense? Durant is clearly a better defensive player overall, and he is more efficient at putting the ball into the basket. That's why he's ranked higher on that list, and why I feel he's a better player than Melo. They are basically high volume scorers who can't pass or defend at an elite level, just Durant is a better at those aspects. And Melo shut down LeBron? He went 10/20 from the field, but did have 5 TO's. But that isn't "shutting him down".

2. Again, what about Griffin's piss-poor free throw shooting? He turns the ball over less than Amar'e does but he blocks fewer shots, has a much less versatile offensive game, and can't shoot free throws. I'm not going to say he's better than Amar'e yet...

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I agree he's not better "right now", but what about Blake's much better passing and rebounding already? Even with a less versatile offensive game, he was as efficient as Amare at scoring and was only a rookie last year. I'm sure he will definitely add a more reliable jumpshot and post game in the coming years. And Blake did improve his FT shooting post All-Star break to 69%, so it's not like he's Shaq from the line and can't improve.

EDIT: Melo's Synergy numbers last year:
Carmelo
Overall 100% 1.06 457
Isolation 20.7% 0.89 228
P&R Ball Handler 15.6% 0.88 159
Post-Up 10.9% 1.14 289
P&R Roll Man 2.7% 1.29 -
Spot-Up 35.9% 1.11 321

He got even worse from the year before.

NYKnicks11 said:

And this somehow makes up for the rest of the time when Melo is loafing around on defense? Durant is clearly a better defensive player overall, and he is more efficient at putting the ball into the basket. That's why he's ranked higher on that list, and why I feel he's a better player than Melo. They are basically high volume scorers who can't pass or defend at an elite level, just Durant is a better at those aspects. And Melo shut down LeBron? He went 10/20 from the field, but did have 5 TO's. But that isn't "shutting him down".

I agree he's not better "right now", but what about Blake's much better passing and rebounding already? Even with a less versatile offensive game, he was as efficient as Amare at scoring and was only a rookie last year. I'm sure he will definitely add a more reliable jumpshot and post game in the coming years. And Blake did improve his FT shooting post All-Star break to 69%, so it's not like he's Shaq from the line and can't improve.

EDIT: Melo's Synergy numbers last year:
Carmelo
Overall 100% 1.06 457
Isolation 20.7% 0.89 228
P&R Ball Handler 15.6% 0.88 159
Post-Up 10.9% 1.14 289
P&R Roll Man 2.7% 1.29 -
Spot-Up 35.9% 1.11 321

He got even worse from the year before.

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Melo shut down LeBron in that game when it mattered in the 4th quarter. He might not have held him to Finals LeBron-esque numbers, but holding LeBron to under 30 points in the regular season is generally a pretty good night. Anybody who watched that game will be able to recall that Carmelo's defense against LeBron is what saved the Knicks in that game.

Obviously Carmelo's defense last year was not good - the Knicks, as a whole, are a bad defensive team, so Carmelo's defense is likewise going to suck until someone finds him a better defensive coach to help him out.

Blake's "much better" passing? He averages ONE more assist per game than Amar'e while having a good scorer like Eric Gordon to pass to. Who the hell was Amar'e passing to in the first half?

Furthermore it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to compare statistics across the board in basketball. Different systems lead to different styles of play which lead to different statistics showing up on the statsheet. It's not like baseball where every hitter gets an equal number of opportunities at the plate and thus we can compare them based on what they do at the plate. In basketball we have different systems and different styles of play - just because one PF averages fewer assists than another doesn't necessarily mean he's a crappier passer -it could just mean that the coach's system doesn't call for said PF to be dishing the ball out, instead putting the ball in the hands of a dominant ball-handling PG like Felton was doing in D'Antoni's system. Because assists are a bulk statistic and not a percentage statistic, they can be misleading when it comes to certain things (i.e. pace factor, amongst others).

Especially in this case when they're off by barely an assist per game. An assist per game is hardly statistically significant after one takes into account deviation from the mean, different systems, different styles of play, and so on. It could just as easily mean that Blake gets more assists because he can't hit the jumper from 18 feet whereas Amar'e sinks those so he doesn't need to pass in that situation.

SSj4Wingzero said:

Melo shut down LeBron in that game when it mattered in the 4th quarter. He might not have held him to Finals LeBron-esque numbers, but holding LeBron to under 30 points in the regular season is generally a pretty good night. Anybody who watched that game will be able to recall that Carmelo's defense against LeBron is what saved the Knicks in that game.

Obviously Carmelo's defense last year was not good - the Knicks, as a whole, are a bad defensive team, so Carmelo's defense is likewise going to suck until someone finds him a better defensive coach to help him out.

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I think it also depends on Melo. HE needs to make the commitment to defense. A coach can help to give him tips and pointers on how to play better, but it's up to him to put in the effort on D that he puts in on O. If he does that, he is easily a top 5 player. Probably top 3.

Blake's "much better" passing? He averages ONE more assist per game than Amar'e while having a good scorer like Eric Gordon to pass to. Who the hell was Amar'e passing to in the first half?

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Well Amare had Gallo, 50%+ from three Shawne Williams, Felton, Douglas, Chandler, Walker, Fields etc all camping out on the three point line, so those are some pretty good options for guys to pass it to in the first half of the season. Especially if they are in the corner, which is the best three to take. So just because he didn't have a player as good as Eric Gordon doesn't mean he didn't have three point shooters he could pass it to when the defense collapsed on him. Too often he would try to force it and take a tough shot, get fouled (positive play), or turn it over.

And Blake had 40 games with at least 4 assists. Amare had 23. Amare's high was 7 assists, which he did twice. Blake did that 6 times, and also had three games with 8 assists, one with 9 and two with 10. Hell Amare's CAREER high is 8 assists, which Blake beat three times in one season. And compared to other PFs playing 30+ minutes, he was only beat out of Boris Diaw last year in assists.

Blake had more assists in his first season than Amare has ever had in his career. Last year Amare's USG% was 30.9 compared to Blake's 27.3, yet still had fewer assists.

Furthermore it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to compare statistics across the board in basketball. Different systems lead to different styles of play which lead to different statistics showing up on the statsheet. It's not like baseball where every hitter gets an equal number of opportunities at the plate and thus we can compare them based on what they do at the plate. In basketball we have different systems and different styles of play - just because one PF averages fewer assists than another doesn't necessarily mean he's a crappier passer -it could just mean that the coach's system doesn't call for said PF to be dishing the ball out, instead putting the ball in the hands of a dominant ball-handling PG like Felton was doing in D'Antoni's system. Because assists are a bulk statistic and not a percentage statistic, they can be misleading when it comes to certain things (i.e. pace factor, amongst others).

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This is true, but Amare did play at a faster pace and use more possessions than Blake too. But offensive systems can affect their numbers, I definitely agree with that.

NYKnicks11 said:

I think it also depends on Melo. HE needs to make the commitment to defense. A coach can help to give him tips and pointers on how to play better, but it's up to him to put in the effort on D that he puts in on O. If he does that, he is easily a top 5 player. Probably top 3.

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Agreed. It's frustrating to see him play great defense against LeBron and yet get torched by a benchwarmer.

Well Amare had Gallo, 50%+ from three Shawne Williams, Felton, Douglas, Chandler, Walker, Fields etc all camping out on the three point line, so those are some pretty good options for guys to pass it to in the first half of the season. Especially if they are in the corner, which is the best three to take. So just because he didn't have a player as good as Eric Gordon doesn't mean he didn't have three point shooters he could pass it to when the defense collapsed on him. Too often he would try to force it and take a tough shot, get fouled (positive play), or turn it over.

And Blake had 40 games with at least 4 assists. Amare had 23. Amare's high was 7 assists, which he did twice. Blake did that 6 times, and also had three games with 8 assists, one with 9 and two with 10. Hell Amare's CAREER high is 8 assists, which Blake beat three times in one season. And compared to other PFs playing 30+ minutes, he was only beat out of Boris Diaw last year in assists.

Blake had more assists in his first season than Amare has ever had in his career. Last year Amare's USG% was 30.9 compared to Blake's 27.3, yet still had fewer assists.

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The reason Amar'e doesn't get assists could be just as easily likened to the fact that he's a much better mid-range jumpshooter than Blake Griffin. Whereas Griffin would have a tough time hitting the shot from 15-18 feet and would have to pass it to Eric Gordon or Baron Davis, Amar'e can just take the shot himself. It's probably why he has more FGA than Blake but fewer assists, because many of the plays that Griffin passes it out on are plays where Amar'e goes for the mid-range shot (and more often than not makes a great one).

This is true, but Amare did play at a faster pace and use more possessions than Blake too. But offensive systems can affect their numbers, I definitely agree with that.

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If anything, I'm more concerned about Amare's A/TO ratio than I am about how many assists he gets. It's fine if he doesn't pass the ball, but his higher number of turnovers means that he's forcing up shots and losing the ball when he could be passing it instead (and any Knicks fan knows that Amar'e has a tendency to force way too many shots sometimes).

If Carmelo and Amar'e work on their shot selection and defense, the Knicks would be the best team in the league if they pick up a decent center.

SSj4Wingzero said:

Agreed. It's frustrating to see him play great defense against LeBron and yet get torched by a benchwarmer.



The reason Amar'e doesn't get assists could be just as easily likened to the fact that he's a much better mid-range jumpshooter than Blake Griffin. Whereas Griffin would have a tough time hitting the shot from 15-18 feet and would have to pass it to Eric Gordon or Baron Davis, Amar'e can just take the shot himself. It's probably why he has more FGA than Blake but fewer assists, because many of the plays that Griffin passes it out on are plays where Amar'e goes for the mid-range shot (and more often than not makes a great one).



If anything, I'm more concerned about Amare's A/TO ratio than I am about how many assists he gets. It's fine if he doesn't pass the ball, but his higher number of turnovers means that he's forcing up shots and losing the ball when he could be passing it instead (and any Knicks fan knows that Amar'e has a tendency to force way too many shots sometimes).

If Carmelo and Amar'e work on their shot selection and defense, the Knicks would be the best team in the league if they pick up a decent center.

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I agree with everything you said. :agreed:

Gotta love list! they always cause controversy I mean i know people who dont have jayz in their top 10 so peoples opinions whether "fact" or stat based are always going to vary. As far as Amare goes part of his turnover problem was the lack of a good facilitator but his jump shot has improved so much it wouldnt bother me if he shot some 3's. The physical build of Amare and melo and their dedication to the game tells me they both have the ability to be elite defenders if they focus. Dantonis wild west shoot whenever you like system will always detract from the defense and the defensive tendecies of his players. With a new coach or Defensive coach Amare n Melo have the potential to be far greater all around. Thats what kills me about Melo you see all the talent in the world but you dont see all the effort, if Melo put in work like Lebron he would far surpass him

that list sucks, why do they have Brandon Roy at 100??

Probably cause he got injured AGAIN.

We all know that Brandon Roy when talented is a top SG in the game but his injury history has not been friendly to him. I'm wondering if in 10 years we'll be talking about him like we talk about Tracy McGrady.

SSj4Wingzero said:

Probably cause he got injured AGAIN.

We all know that Brandon Roy when talented is a top SG in the game but his injury history has not been friendly to him. I'm wondering if in 10 years we'll be talking about him like we talk about Tracy McGrady.

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Its a shame too, if it weren't for injuries Portland would be championship contenders imo.

Once I saw last season's mvp at number 9 I didn't take the list seriously. Derrick Rose should at best top 3. Whoever made the list didn't put much thought into making the list.

AmareForPresident said:

Its a shame too, if it weren't for injuries Portland would be championship contenders imo.

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Yeah...it's really tragic because I honestly think if Roy hadn't gotten hurt we'd be talking about him being an MVP contender and mentioning him in the same sentence as Melo/etc.