D'antoni Offensive Philosophy Researched/The Problem With Carmelo And Amar

nuckles2k2

Superstar
I think he has more of a problem operating with Tyson, than he does Melo. He and Melo could run the PnR all day if STAT was playing the 5. But since his game is crashing hard, and quickly to the rim out of the PnR, it's not looking so great when Tyson is out there. There are more bodies in the way.

So how do we build around what we have? It seems like there's an issue up front. The best thing for this team is to operate in the half court, and run when appropriate. But I don't know how you implement STAT and a true 5 like Chandler in the half court. Amar'e is not a jump shooter, and he's not a low post operator...so what is he?

I wanna see how it works tonight if Tyson plays. I wanted to see it against the Spurs, but obviously Tyson wasn't out there...and they still ran very few PnR's for Amar'e, which I found strange. But that was one game, I'm not gonna make too much of it.

Edit: Tyson is out again, but this time STAT is starting at the 5, instead of Jorts. I expect to see the high PnR all game. He should look like the old STAT tonight, especially if his explosiveness is coming back.

It's a weird situation, cause we know this offense isn't the answer, but then, what do we really know about STAT being the low post presence in a more traditional offense?
 
Last edited:

skisloper

Starter
I think he has more of a problem operating with Tyson, than he does Melo. He and Melo could run the PnR all day if STAT was playing the 5. But since his game is crashing hard, and quickly to the rim out of the PnR, it's not looking so great when Tyson is out there. There are more bodies in the way.

So how do we build around what we have? It seems like there's an issue up front. The best thing for this team is to operate in the half court, and run when appropriate. But I don't know how you implement STAT and a true 5 like Chandler in the half court. Amar'e is not a jump shooter, and he's not a low post operator...so what is he?

I wanna see how it works tonight if Tyson plays. I wanted to see it against the Spurs, but obviously Tyson wasn't out there...and they still ran very few PnR's for Amar'e, which I found strange. But that was one game, I'm not gonna make too much of it.

Edit: Tyson is out again, but this time STAT is starting at the 5, instead of Jorts. I expect to see the high PnR all game. He should look like the old STAT tonight, especially if his explosiveness is coming back.

It's a weird situation, cause we know this offense isn't the answer, but then, what do we really know about STAT being the low post presence in a more traditional offense?

If worse come to worse Let Chandler and Stat split it up at C........I mean with the short season and the Knicks now with 2 squads of 5 why not just run that way.......
Lin
Shump
Melo
Chandler
Novak

Davis
Fields
Smith
Jeffries
Stat....

use Jorts for whoever is injured or playing like crap...
 
I think he has more of a problem operating with Tyson, than he does Melo. He and Melo could run the PnR all day if STAT was playing the 5. But since his game is crashing hard, and quickly to the rim out of the PnR, it's not looking so great when Tyson is out there. There are more bodies in the way.

So how do we build around what we have? It seems like there's an issue up front. The best thing for this team is to operate in the half court, and run when appropriate. But I don't know how you implement STAT and a true 5 like Chandler in the half court. Amar'e is not a jump shooter, and he's not a low post operator...so what is he?

I wanna see how it works tonight if Tyson plays. I wanted to see it against the Spurs, but obviously Tyson wasn't out there...and they still ran very few PnR's for Amar'e, which I found strange. But that was one game, I'm not gonna make too much of it.

IMHO this team would be better suited utilizing a post up offense with some P&R mixed in. I dont know that STAT cant post. I've seen him post up maybe 2-3 times in the last 5 games.

Chandler is limited offensively. He gets his put backs and alley oops. That's fine.

Melo we all know can post but it is rarely used. He commands a double team when he's down there so someone is open.

This team was shooting the ball lights out when Lin had his run. They've cooled off. Lin is being doubled hard off the pick. Offense is difficult to come by. This is the problem playing outside in. Playing inside the paint you can throw stuff up at the basket with your eyes closed and 4-10 will go in.

So we have options. Keep running the same things and hope our shooters can pick it up, or adjust and go inside more for easier buckets and/or the foul.

When the shooters pick it back up you can go back to what you like to do. This is really just basic, common sense stuff.

I really dont see why this team has issues scoring with all the talent it has.

Maybe its just me. I dont know...
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
I get it, and I agree. The team does need to play inside-out. If STAT can provide a solid, consistent low post game, then we're a coach away from having a spectacular starting 5.

He's going to need an array of moves down there tho. He's gonna have to be able to face up and shoot, develop a Dirk/Kobe-esque fallaway jumper, and pose enough of a threat to get those occasional "two-hand" fouls when his man is unsure of what the hell is going on and the help isn't coming. Some sort of push, hook, etc. shot would be invaluable too. We already know he has the athleticism and coordination to get to the rim, but you gotta keep the defense honest with something else as well. Plus when he's 33, he's not gonna be driving and elevating the way he can now.

He's also gonna have to take care of the ball better, know when to kick it out, re-post, and demand it back.

He already has a serviceable jumper, it's not out of the realm that he develops a post game you can operate an entire offense around. But it's time sensitive too. If we get another coach, and it's not materializing, what are we going to do with a 30 year old Amar'e, making $19M?
 

Red

TYPE-A
Lol... you guy's are soooooo funny!

Isn't it obvious?

The answer is we have no LEADERSHIP.

No savvy veteran RESPECTS D'Antoni. Not his style, not his approach, and definitely not his system & philosophy.

Sure they'll say the politically correct thing, sure they'll pay lip service, but deep down they don't respect him. Saying that is career suicide since no coach would advocate picking you up except the go-against-the-grain, Rex Ryan/Al Davis types. Maybe a Belichik, who knows how to command respect.

Yeah vets like Jared Jeffries may respect coach because he's a scrub in the grand scheme of things who actually gets minutes but D'Antoni is clueless on how to earn respect.

Why do you think savvy vets like Billups bump heads with MDA?

Why do you think a green PG like Lin does respect MDA?

Its obvious to me. With alpha-males like Melo & to a degree Stat who is marginalized by Melo, a coach & a floor leader PG (maybe B Diddy) is needed to keep them in check.

That's why not every coach can deal with stars. They don't know how to form a synergy where its team 1st. They don't have the psychological skills to reel these stars in and get the most out of them.

Yeah MDA's PG friendly system might be sought after by guards, but it's obvious No real star not a PG wants to be a part of this.

Our results reflect our coaches inability. We are as inconsistent as he is. What real championship or playoff perrenial coach would NOT discipline his players for looking so lax on D?

You think these alphs-males like Melo don't know the deal? After being coached by a George Carl & Boeheim, really?

MDA lacks accountability, so does his team.

MDA lacks defensive awareness, consistency, and game planning, so does his team.

MDA doesn't motivate stars, look at Stat & Melo.

MDA has no real credentials nor psychological skills to get players to buy in. He in no way can convince savvy vets he knows what he's doing. Lins of the world yes, but not real stars, they know better.

We need a leader(s). A coaching leader & a PG floor general who won't fade under pressure and can keep players like Stat & Melo equally satisfied yet in check. MDA doesn't fit that mold.

Move on.
 
I get it, and I agree. The team does need to play inside-out. If STAT can provide a solid, consistent low post game, then we're a coach away from having a spectacular starting 5.

He's going to need an array of moves down there tho. He's gonna have to be able to face up and shoot, develop a Dirk/Kobe-esque fallaway jumper, and pose enough of a threat to get those occasional "two-hand" fouls when his man is unsure of what the hell is going on and the help isn't coming. Some sort of push, hook, etc. shot would be invaluable too. We already know he has the athleticism and coordination to get to the rim, but you gotta keep the defense honest with something else as well. Plus when he's 33, he's not gonna be driving and elevating the way he can now.

He's also gonna have to take care of the ball better, know when to kick it out, re-post, and demand it back.

He already has a serviceable jumper, it's not out of the realm that he develops a post game you can operate an entire offense around. But it's time sensitive too. If we get another coach, and it's not materializing, what are we going to do with a 30 year old Amar'e, making $19M?

Spot on, Karl Malone did'nt have a whole bunch of post moves but the one's he did have were unguardable including his baby fade in the post, Amar'e plays just like him except for a few post moves to fall back on.
 

NYCLakerfan

Rotation player
Like a few ppl said the OP was a very well thought out and detailed post analyzing Phoenix's offense.

But like others said also you can't over haul the team for a coach's system.

STAT's lack of a back to the basket game def hurts the Knicks a lot idk why they don't clear out the post more often and let Melo go to work he has a great post game.

I would love to see what someone like Jeff Van Gundy or Doc Rivers could do with this team, because you shouldn't be bad with this much talent it has to be the coach and the almost nonchalant structureless atmosphere he creates. There's a reason this guy could never win with those great Phoenix teams.

But Amare needs to go work with Hakeem for like 2 months over the off season to develop some back to the basket game like Dwight and Lebron did. Because the older he gets the more those moves are useful since his explosion is gonna keep diminishing.
 
Last edited:

red32

Benchwarmer
Just I like said, he was in a team without a center, just like the Knick's tonight. The Suns was just Knick's tonight, lots offensive, not defense. Again, without Chandler in the middle and no defense, you don't win games.

I really really want Stat to play well, but you gotta play some D!
 

KingofNy

Starter
Boy I tell ya!

We can overanalyze or we can keep it simple stupid.

1. This ain't Pheonix

2. No one currently on our team, or used to be is Steve Nash.

As Danny Ainge put it "Bird and McHale aren't walking through those doors to help you"

3. Whatever system you want to call it:

A) is unprooven
B) increases negative stats just as accentuates some positives
C) was run "best" with a squad 99% different from our current squad

4. When we had more "role" players ala Felton & Gallo etc...
WE WERE STILL NEXT TO LAST IN THE LEAGUE IN BOTH DEFENSE & REBOUNDING. Do you get that?

Let me repeat for those sucking Gallo off....

WE DIDN'T FIELD A CHAMPIONSHIP NOR SERIOUS PLAYOFF CALIBER TEAM BECAUSE OUR DEFENSE AND REBOUNDING WERE TOO POOR THEN.

5. Almost EVERY player we had prior to this year PLAYED OUT OF POSITION!

6. The only semi-legit argument anyone could present with minimal validity was the player argument.

We'll guess what you f*cking in denial unrealistic fantasizers...

Your beloved coached just proved he's way in over his head.

It takes a special coach to:

1. Recognize a player's/team's weaknesses and develop them to the point where they no longer exist.

Many of our players can't nor couldn't play defense with consistency. Has D'Antoni proved he could change that? No

2. Be successful in New York City
D'Antoni is SUB .500, is that your opinion of success? No

3. Coach the many ego's and talents of stars or higher talented players. D'Antoni has proven he can't influence the synergy needed for that to happen.

4. Know when he's wrong. Do I have to list the many players with the same if not better skill set that he DNP'd for his personal reasons like a bitch? No

5. Game plan specific. Have we witnessed a game plan to stop a specific player like teams with better coaches have done to us? No

6. Get the best out of his team. Besides PG's whom I may add have had the most injuries due to overue, who has D'Antoni made better?

7. Motivate. The key here is consistency. D'Antoni has been consistently inconsistent.

You guy's remind me of weak minded losers who talk themselves into staying with a Bitch because she cooks great. Please n!gga. I never settle.

Especially for mediocrity! No

D'Antoni is amongst thehighest paid coaches in the league. DO US ALL A F*CKING FAVOR AND EXPLAIN WHY HE SHOULD BE. If not then stfu.

No offense to the thread starter. A for effort but Fail for revisiting PHX as if that was a blueprint for success.


Spot on. D'Antoni is the problem. It really sucks he can't even motivate Stat, a player he's coached for his entire career. MDA really needs to GTFO NY. I can't wait to get a new coach and new system that FOCUSES ON D!
 

NYCLakerfan

Rotation player
Just I like said, he was in a team without a center, just like the Knick's tonight. The Suns was just Knick's tonight, lots offensive, not defense. Again, without Chandler in the middle and no defense, you don't win games.

I really really want Stat to play well, but you gotta play some D!

STAT has yet to play with a coach that really focuses on D and tries to make him develop a post game, it's gonna be interesting to see what this dope lineup would be like with a new coach next season.
 

VeryGundy

Benchwarmer
F yeah he would. He probably doesn't want to come back to NY though...At least it didn't sound like it on his broadcasts.

It's all about money. JVG would make them play defense. I am so sick and tired of watching the matador defense from this Knicks team.
 

KingofNy

Starter
It's all about money. JVG would make them play defense. I am so sick and tired of watching the matador defense from this Knicks team.

I hate not having a defense. Defense wins championships, offense means nothing if you have no D. Knicks have been hammering that point home with force the last two weeks.
 

kinein

Benchwarmer
260-270,000 dollars a game should be enough motivation. They need to be benched if they won't play defense or rebound.
 
Top