New York Knicks vs Washington Wizards 12/16/2013 7:30PM

mafra

Legend
I've been trying to stay patient with Woodson but what happened today was just unacceptable. How many blunders can one team make in a minute? First off why is Beno even in the game on that last play? Where the hell was the help defense? Why would you not tell them to use that foul? Why would you not call a timeout? So many things had to go wrong for us to lose this game and they all did and it's 100% Woody's fault. I'm officially on the fire Woodson bandwagon from this day forward.


I second this emotion. I've vacillated here on this, mainly b/c I'm tired of calling for the HC's head (in all the teams I follow). I reasoned that he did well enough the first 1.5 seasons, that he's done well enough with managing/maximizing JR, that there's no real alternative at this point. However, at the same time, I can't erase his previous post season failures or the fact we didn't even bother to consider Phil Jax, and just quickly re-upped this clown.

But, last night was the final straw.

I realize the roster is flawed we have no PG and TC is hurt, and both Melo & JR have disappointed thus far.
Still, a decent coach would?ve been the difference in a few of these games. 7-17 should probably be 12-12. His rotations have sapped Melo of his 4[SUP]th[/SUP] quarter mojo. His refusal to ride the hot hand on a nightly basis has extinguished the offense in the second half of games, at times. He?s stayed with JR far too long, especially in the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] quarter of games.
But last night proved what all the sceptics have bemoaned, and showed even more faults?
1. Why was a hit THjr benched? His biggest error was making too many shots? Not missing enough?
2. The final :24 seconds was a series of blunders that cannot be forgiven. Beno should have been taken out for a defensive sub. Team should have been instructed to give the foul. A timeout has to be called. WOODSON should have run on the court and grabbed a ref if he had to.
Knicks were 4-3 since the Nets win. A brutal Jan is coming. We do get TC back soon tho? A win last night and now we are 5-3 with some winnable games coming up, before a west coast swing.
The team is struggling. It?s incumbent on the HC to do his part and contribute. Sure, the players can mess things up on the court and not follow the plan, they may forget to foul or take an ill-advised shot. But this is why a coach must hold players accountable, by yanking them out and taking away playing time. And, a HC, certainly has to be thinking? He cannot get caught up in the moment and forget to call a timeout. WE HAD THREE left. Try calling a TO to stop a run. He loves to pull his own player out of the game with the hot hand, so why is he protecting his TOs?
Last night proved it: The coach ?fakes it to make it.?
 

Kiyaman

Legend
Originally Posted by LeFlume View Post
Don't blame Melo for the last play. That's more on Beno. He started the play without even looking at coach. Melo diden't expect to get the ball...

1) Beno shouldnt have been in the game.
2) Beno shouldnt be taking-out the ball, that was Melo's job.
3) Captain Melo shouldve wispered in all teamates ear "we got a foul to give at 5 mississippi".

Do u think now is the time to send Woodson down to the D.League ..
Plus put our most minute played HC captain ISO-Melo on the shopping block to give the next team a christmas present for a few draft picks .......
 

petescud

Starter
Melo saying Woody is still safe as coach says that Dolan has Melo running our team which is sad. If this continues with Woody getting a pass, we're lucky to win 20 games this year. We are a laughing stock cause no one is accountable here. A timeout, and we insert bigs to guard the basket (hey Woody remember Aldrich)....that same timeout we give instructions if they do score or time out after they score so we bring the ball up from half court for a better shot....to me Woody is in the bottom 10 coaches in the NBA
 

Kiyaman

Legend
we had 3 timeouts left.
Kiyaman come on man, Melo played his ass off today...this team wouldn't even qualify as a top 5 team in the Turkish league without Melo.

I will repeat myself .. ISO-Melo received 4 minutes of rest in the first-half, and 3 minutes of rest in the 2nd half.
Melo been getting those high SUPER-STAR amount of playingtime minutes all season (40+ min).
Here is the un-asked question? Our defensive players are good enough to give us 7 to 10 fastbreaks per game.
Do u think Melo could do 40+ minutes if our offense push the ball in transition to score before our oponents could setup on defense???

That high amount of consistent playingtime goes to Top Super Stars like "Lebron/Wade/Duncan/Pippin/Larry Bird/Magic/Jordan".
Top level players that will give u 2 to 4 other things on both sides of the court.
Would u put Carmelo Anthony in a DEFENSIVE-lineup for a STOP in a time-out???
 

KingCharles34

All Star
Am i the only one surprised by the amount of controversy surrounding last nights finish?

Even if we did call a timeout, its not like Woody draws up plays. We woulda inbounded the ball at halfcourt, dribbled for a little bit and jacked up a shot anyways. I've seen it several times already

Why doesnt Woody ever have Melo come off a pick or something like that at the end of games? Its always Melo against 1, 2, sometimes 3 guys. And if not Carmelo then JR, Woodson is a fool when it comes to late game strategy. This i thought was a known fact for some time now. Everybodys actin surprised
 

groundpilot

Benchwarmer
Everybody is acting surprised, because there were multiple crucial mistakes made at the very end of the winnable game.
Mistakes that even high school assistant coach wouldnt have made.
Last night we were texting back and forth with my friend(former pro player in his country) and he said at the end of the game that "i think Woody is trying to get fired, he cant be that stupid" I think he has a point. Woody may be sick and tired of his stupid players and wants to be fired.
 

skisloper

Starter
Everybody is acting surprised, because there were multiple crucial mistakes made at the very end of the winnable game.
Mistakes that even high school assistant coach wouldnt have made.
Last night we were texting back and forth with my friend(former pro player in his country) and he said at the end of the game that "i think Woody is trying to get fired, he cant be that stupid" I think he has a point. Woody may be sick and tired of his stupid players and wants to be fired.


Get Ready.....Woody's next move will be putting Chris Smith as our point guard.......Maybe its then that any JR or Woody defenders will realize what a crock it is playing for this guy......

Woody actually said he called for Metta but then the original 5 went out there......with 3 time outs and a bunch of assistant coaches still amazing how Urich was out there,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Wizards must have been laughing their asses off......I am sure Wizards coach did not think was Urich would be on the floor....fast thinking by Wall to get him the ball.
 

metrocard

Legend
lol mafra, please don't group Melo with JR. Melo has done everything he can do, playing 40 minutes every night, rebounding and scores 26 ppg for us every night.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Melo saying Woody is still safe as coach says that Dolan has Melo running our team which is sad. If this continues with Woody getting a pass, we're lucky to win 20 games this year. We are a laughing stock cause no one is accountable here. A timeout, and we insert bigs to guard the basket (hey Woody remember Aldrich)....that same timeout we give instructions if they do score or time out after they score so we bring the ball up from half court for a better shot....to me Woody is in the bottom 10 coaches in the NBA

It's called political correctness. I've talked about it on here, and how Melo is so unbelievably politically correct, that it doesn't sound like he's really saying anything.

He's the polar opposite of Kobe. Kobe will let you know EXACTLY how he feels, sometimes even without directly saying it. His words bear weight, and not just because of who he is, but he throws political correctness out the window, and lets his viewpoints be known.

Every time I see or hear someone call Melo "selfish", or allude to it, I just laugh and shake my head. I'm gonna need someone to dig up some footage of Melo saying something self-centered, something negative about a teammate, a coach, or a front-office exec.

He was even saying he had no problem with MDA, and that "it's not on coach, it's on us" when we ALL KNOW that Mike D'Antoni was a problem. A similar problem we're having with Woody.

So while I'm sure Melo is as selfish as the next highly talented star player, he says the same god damn things as the majority of the other star players not named Kobe.

Can we start calling things the way they are?

Yes he's pretty much offense and only offense.

Yes he needs a comprehensive PG on the floor with him to be as effective as you'd like him to be in the outcome.

No he's not a max-level player at his age, and limitations.

Yes he needs to show more heart when the frustration is at an all-time high (that's what separates the great ones from the rest, it's not an easy task).

No he's not the strongest leader you're ever gonna see. His leadership shows up, on the court, when everything is going well.

He's ALWAYS gonna say the right thing in front of the cameras.

Can we stick to the facts instead of this sheep following the Shepard, without even knowing who the Shepard is bull****?

Folks on here raised some great points, right after they repeat some **** that they "had heard that one time, at that one place, when that guy was talking basketball.."

Pete you're absolutely right that Woody can't get a pass. But how in the world do you arrive at the conclusion that because Melo wouldn't throw his coach under the bus, Dolan is letting him run the team?

When was the last time a player publicly called out his coach and was praised for it? Why would you realistically expect that to happen?

I remember CP3 saying Vinny Del Negro was not a problem, he had no issue with him, right before Vinny got fired. That's kinda how it goes. Yet when Melo "says all the right things" it's still somehow negative.

Lol, what?
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Pau and Kaman pretty much recently called out Mike D'Antoni. It actually happens quite often in this league.

They complained about the way they were being used. So did Gortat.

The media and the fans can connect the dots. Melo said that Woody took the blame, so he's not gonna speak anymore on that.

But other than that, I'm not sure what he could have said that wouldn't have people thinking that it's him flexing his muscles cause Dolan has him running the team.

A timeout should have been called, either on the floor, or by the coach. If the players don't call it...why weren't they following the coach's directions to do so. If the players aren't doing it, why isn't the coach doing it?

The coach then says "that's on me. I should have been ready and called it after the made shot."

Melo says Woody took the blame, that's that. He has no problem with him... and suddenly folks have Melo making personnel decisions...

I'm still not quite there yet.

I would love to know what the hell Melo was doing walking the ball up like he wasn't quite sure what was going on. Then taking a shot 1-on-3. But the part about Dolan having him control the team because he essentially DIDN'T SAY "my coach is a bald idiot, you guys see that confused stare on his face all fuggin game."

But the point about Pau, Kaman, and I'll throw in Gortat, recently calling out the coach indirectly...see my point about Melo being so politically correct all the time that he doesn't really publicly say anything.

And at this point, I'm not sure if I blame him. I know if I was gonna be characterized as "selfish" cause I'm doing and saying the same things as my peers? I would say a whole lot of nothing too. Why not?


<----------- EDIT ------------->

Actually, recently on a post-game show on MSG. Woodson sat right in front of the media and said "sometimes I call those plays for Melo on the wing, at the end of games. If someone is going to take that shot, I feel pretty comfortable with him taking it."

And in the same post game show, when interviewed in the locker room, Melo said "my teammates have to know I trust them too. I mean...I'm glad they have that faith in me to take them shots, but they gotta know I have faith in them too. I can't take those shots all the time."

I'd say that's Melo going a bit against the grain of what his coach said. It's not as direct as "I don't like how I'm being used. You see it out there." like Pau did.

But once again, that political correctness is tiresome.
 
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groundpilot

Benchwarmer
lol mafra, please don't group Melo with JR. Melo has done everything he can do, playing 40 minutes every night, rebounding and scores 26 ppg for us every night.

Metro, if we were winning games, i would agree with you. Great individual statistical numbers only look good if your team is winning. But ufortunately for Melo, there are other things that are necessury for a team game. I will give you one. Making your teammates better. I know, i know, you will say he is playing with scrubs, they cant play. They can, trust me, we saw good games out of everyone this season.
I bet, if Melo was unselfish, we would be winning more games, guaranteed.
Even he said it himself not too long ago "Me, scoring 25-30 points isnt working, so i need to try something else"
He did, for one game. Then he went back to his own iso, selfish, scoring title chasing bs.
 

shemmue0311

Benchwarmer
whatisthisamateurhour.gif
 

NY17KNICKS

&#9733;Melo Mafia&#9733;
Metro, if we were winning games, i would agree with you. Great individual statistical numbers only look good if your team is winning. But ufortunately for Melo, there are other things that are necessury for a team game. I will give you one. Making your teammates better. I know, i know, you will say he is playing with scrubs, they cant play. They can, trust me, we saw good games out of everyone this season.
I bet, if Melo was unselfish, we would be winning more games, guaranteed.
Even he said it himself not too long ago "Me, scoring 25-30 points isnt working, so i need to try something else"
He did, for one game. Then he went back to his own iso, selfish, scoring title chasing bs.

lmao @ you.
 

metrocard

Legend
Metro, if we were winning games, i would agree with you. Great individual statistical numbers only look good if your team is winning. But ufortunately for Melo, there are other things that are necessury for a team game. I will give you one. Making your teammates better. I know, i know, you will say he is playing with scrubs, they cant play. They can, trust me, we saw good games out of everyone this season.
I bet, if Melo was unselfish, we would be winning more games, guaranteed.
Even he said it himself not too long ago "Me, scoring 25-30 points isnt working, so i need to try something else"
He did, for one game. Then he went back to his own iso, selfish, scoring title chasing bs.

It doesn't matter if we're winning or losing, Melo is doing everything he can do for the team. If you refuse to recognize that then you're not thinking this our clearly.

Making teammates better...do you realize how much attention Melo gets by the defenses? He gets hacked, doubled, foul, Melo does pass it off to an open guy...but that open guy is Felton who shoots 27% from 3ptland this season and JR Smith who shoots 33% FG and 33% 3pt.

I'm sorry to tell you this but I say this with love.

Shut up.

Who the hell are JR Smith and Felton that Melo has to make them better? How much better can Felton and Smith get? We've seen their prime, we've seen them slump. Theres nothing special about these guards and aren't even top 25 ranked in their positions.

You're acting like Carmelo Anthony has a John Wall and Bradley Beal back court and it's his responsibility to make their he's getting the best out of his teammates.

These fans knew that this superstar who's primary strength is scoring and they knew (I god damn hope they known this that would be his primary strength) that he wasn't a LeBron or Nash type player who is pass first score second. Do you see the failed retarded logic with these folks?

Do you guy Dirk Nowitzki or hell even Paul George who's playing out of his mind can improve Raymond Felton's short comings as a PG? JR Smith's inability to take his profession seriously?

Theres only about 5 guys in this league who can slightly make the Knicks better but we will still be a sub .500 team.

Ground, I challenge you to name guys on this roster that are championship caliber players....World Peace isn't even playing significant minutes because Woodson is overplaying Melo minutes.

Ground is the only guy in this forum who can't see Melo is playing a lot of minutes every night and wants Melo to be improving guys inside and out, on offense and defense. Get real with yourself.

Melo is actually one of the few guys on this team who passes the ball to Amare...Melo's job is to score, if you call it selfish then you're an a s s.


It's funny man.
We're 3rd worst in the East.
The only bright spots on this team are Tim Hardway Jr, Iman Shumpert, Metta World Peace and by far our best player Carmelo Anthony.

People with these really simple minds can't understand how awful Felton, Smith and having no true big man on this team has hurt us, so they shift the blame to Melo, for illogical reasons. (He doesn't make Felton or Smith better, he can't play with Amare, he doesn't play defense even leading the team in defensive rebounding and having 4 block shots in this team)

Just disgusting state for Knick fans right now.

I know Kiyaman can get annoying with the Melo hate, but this is really disturbing.

I'd love to see what a line up of Felton/Smith/Shumpert/Bargnani/Stoudimire would do because apparently those guys are unselfish and make each other better players.

Just waive Melo off the team if you want to go with groundpilot's logic,
 

Kiyaman

Legend
Metro, if we were winning games, i would agree with you. Great individual statistical numbers only look good if your team is winning. But ufortunately for Melo, there are other things that are necessury for a team game. I will give you one. Making your teammates better. I know, i know, you will say he is playing with scrubs, they cant play. They can, trust me, we saw good games out of everyone this season.
I bet, if Melo was unselfish, we would be winning more games, guaranteed.
Even he said it himself not too long ago "Me, scoring 25-30 points isnt working, so i need to try something else"
He did, for one game. Then he went back to his own iso, selfish, scoring title chasing bs.

If Melo wasnt in every single lineup we put out on the court this season making teammates play to his beat n tempo, I would agree with Metro. But like u said, having great individual stats in 17-7 record means something, but in 7-17 record means LOSERS.


24 games from 3-13 to 7-17, Woodson has never mention the word of practice, having a extra practice, or doing something new in practice. Yet, every lineup we put on the court look like they never practice. Melo been doing the same ole move over over over since he first arrive for 40 minutes of every game.
Why Woodson didnt call time-out bc Melo had Beno inbound the ball to him to take the last shot.
 

metrocard

Legend
If Melo wasnt in every single lineup we put out on the court this season making teammates play to his beat n tempo, I would agree with Metro. But like u said, having great individual stats in 17-7 record means something, but in 7-17 record means LOSERS.


24 games from 3-13 to 7-17, Woodson has never mention the word of practice, having a extra practice, or doing something new in practice. Yet, every lineup we put on the court look like they never practice. Melo been doing the same ole move over over over since he first arrive for 40 minutes of every game.
Why Woodson didnt call time-out bc Melo had Beno inbound the ball to him to take the last shot.

Kiya, okay...

explain to me what do you want besides Melo doing the same move over and over because apparently Melo has become "one dimensional" to you.


Who gets the most shot attempts on this team?
How many minutes would you play Melo?
 

Kiyaman

Legend
Kiya, okay...

explain to me what do you want besides Melo doing the same move over and over because apparently Melo has become "one dimensional" to you.
Who gets the most shot attempts on this team?
How many minutes would you play Melo?

Melo is a one dimensional player .. recall Starbury 40 minutes with no brains, and no energy to score or play defense in the 4th quarter. Starbury individual performance is the same as Melo's Ballhoggin individual performance.
Both so-call stars played 40 minutes a game, and didnt have chemistry with any Knicks teammate for 3 straight seasons. RED-FLAG

It's really not about how many shots Melo takes .. its about Melo wanting a touch of the ball on every offensive-possession, he never move without the ball, he holds the ball, he shoots the ball with 2 or 3 defenders on him, his consistent ballhoggin make teammates shoot the ball when 18 seconds are left on the shot clock.
u tell me if Melo is a good offensive-teammate having the above FLAWS???

Melo does not make any of his teammates better, so why is he given a 40 minute pass every game?
Melo is a 30 minute high scoring player, bc Melo show no hustle on defense, and no hustle in pushing the ball to score before a oponent could get back on defense .. now thats Marbury all over again. RED-FLAG

The Denver Nuggets main investments every season with Melo were getting the team a PG that will keep the ball out of Melo's hands who keep thinking he is a "Point-Foward". The Nuggets went through PG's "Miller, Carter, AI, Billups, and Ty Lawson". When Billups kept the ball out of Melo hands from playing the point, Melo wanted out of the organization. Making PG Ty Lawson happy to lead a Meloless Nuggets team to a better winning season than the Knicks for 3 going on 4 straight seasons.
The clarity of PG-Billups amnesty, not resigning PG-Jeremy Lin all leads to ISO-Melo playing point-foward anytime he feels like it. RED FLAG.

u never see Melo sitting on the bench discussing anything with any of the coaching-staff.
This game showed why we needed the "Old-Heads" lastseason, and why we need Billups or Kidd on the court at crunch-time having a bad-decision-making ISO-Melo in the lineup.
 

Broadway

All Star
They complained about the way they were being used. So did Gortat.

The media and the fans can connect the dots. Melo said that Woody took the blame, so he's not gonna speak anymore on that.

But other than that, I'm not sure what he could have said that wouldn't have people thinking that it's him flexing his muscles cause Dolan has him running the team.

A timeout should have been called, either on the floor, or by the coach. If the players don't call it...why weren't they following the coach's directions to do so. If the players aren't doing it, why isn't the coach doing it?

The coach then says "that's on me. I should have been ready and called it after the made shot."

Melo says Woody took the blame, that's that. He has no problem with him... and suddenly folks have Melo making personnel decisions...

I'm still not quite there yet.

I would love to know what the hell Melo was doing walking the ball up like he wasn't quite sure what was going on. Then taking a shot 1-on-3. But the part about Dolan having him control the team because he essentially DIDN'T SAY "my coach is a bald idiot, you guys see that confused stare on his face all fuggin game."

But the point about Pau, Kaman, and I'll throw in Gortat, recently calling out the coach indirectly...see my point about Melo being so politically correct all the time that he doesn't really publicly say anything.

And at this point, I'm not sure if I blame him. I know if I was gonna be characterized as "selfish" cause I'm doing and saying the same things as my peers? I would say a whole lot of nothing too. Why not?


<----------- EDIT ------------->

Actually, recently on a post-game show on MSG. Woodson sat right in front of the media and said "sometimes I call those plays for Melo on the wing, at the end of games. If someone is going to take that shot, I feel pretty comfortable with him taking it."

And in the same post game show, when interviewed in the locker room, Melo said "my teammates have to know I trust them too. I mean...I'm glad they have that faith in me to take them shots, but they gotta know I have faith in them too. I can't take those shots all the time."

I'd say that's Melo going a bit against the grain of what his coach said. It's not as direct as "I don't like how I'm being used. You see it out there." like Pau did.

But once again, that political correctness is tiresome.


You're playing a game of semantics here. If a player says they wouldn't have signed with an organization based on how they're being used and specifically point to the system that's about as big an indictment on the coach as it can get. Also Pau held himself out of the first part of last year with a mysterious knee injury after having some exchanges in the media with D'Antoni.

This year he went as far to say….."Mike Is All Over The Place" with what he says in rebuttal to D'Antoni questioning his effort and play.


Melo has come very close in his career questioning coaching. I know he threw Bizdelik under the bus early in his career. I'll have to search to see if I can find something. Overall Melo does try to hide behind pre-cut fabric.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
They complained about the way they were being used. So did Gortat.

The media and the fans can connect the dots. Melo said that Woody took the blame, so he's not gonna speak anymore on that.

But other than that, I'm not sure what he could have said that wouldn't have people thinking that it's him flexing his muscles cause Dolan has him running the team.

A timeout should have been called, either on the floor, or by the coach. If the players don't call it...why weren't they following the coach's directions to do so. If the players aren't doing it, why isn't the coach doing it?

The coach then says "that's on me. I should have been ready and called it after the made shot."

Melo says Woody took the blame, that's that. He has no problem with him... and suddenly folks have Melo making personnel decisions...

I'm still not quite there yet.

I would love to know what the hell Melo was doing walking the ball up like he wasn't quite sure what was going on. Then taking a shot 1-on-3. But the part about Dolan having him control the team because he essentially DIDN'T SAY "my coach is a bald idiot, you guys see that confused stare on his face all fuggin game."

But the point about Pau, Kaman, and I'll throw in Gortat, recently calling out the coach indirectly...see my point about Melo being so politically correct all the time that he doesn't really publicly say anything.

And at this point, I'm not sure if I blame him. I know if I was gonna be characterized as "selfish" cause I'm doing and saying the same things as my peers? I would say a whole lot of nothing too. Why not?


<----------- EDIT ------------->

Actually, recently on a post-game show on MSG. Woodson sat right in front of the media and said "sometimes I call those plays for Melo on the wing, at the end of games. If someone is going to take that shot, I feel pretty comfortable with him taking it."

And in the same post game show, when interviewed in the locker room, Melo said "my teammates have to know I trust them too. I mean...I'm glad they have that faith in me to take them shots, but they gotta know I have faith in them too. I can't take those shots all the time."

I'd say that's Melo going a bit against the grain of what his coach said. It's not as direct as "I don't like how I'm being used. You see it out there." like Pau did.

But once again, that political correctness is tiresome.

u r mentioning teams where the headcoach is in control of the game.
Mike Woodson, just like HC Karl has no control over what ISO-Melo want to do, when Melo want to do it.
u seen the aftermath of what happen to HC Karl when he let Chauncey Billups lead the Nuggets team to go to the WCF.
The next season HC Karl was put on the season injury list, his job was given to the assistant coach.
Meta World Peace gives u a little of everything in his hustle performance, Woodson is the first coach in the NBA to DNP MWP.
 
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