Wait til Next Year!

Seems like we Knicks fans say this every year. But this atrocious Knicks team may be a blessing in disguise. For the first time since drafting Patrick Ewing the Knicks have a solid change of landing the number one pick. All of this during the same season that we'll be under the cap and hunting for free agents.

I'm willing to bet that the big name agents stay put. Don't expect Gasol or Aldridge to go anywhere. If we draft Jahlil Okafor, who put up 20 points and 25 rebounds a few games back for Duke, pick up Gordon Dragic as our shooting guard and Paul Millsap at PF we'd have a squad.

J. Okafor
P. Millsap
G. Dragic
C. Anthony
J. Calderon

I think Calderon is a better back up PG at this point of his career, but still not a bad line up. In a few months we'll see how far off my prediction is.

Next year is no comfort to me. If PJ hadn't signed Melo and did the Dallas trade without acquiring Calderon and gotten a 1st pick instead, Knicks fans would have been prepared for a rebuilding season. PJ was not expecting this which tells you he's running the Knicks on blind luck something he'll need plenty of to get Okafor. Okafor is the closest thing you have to a sure thing in the draft, not sure about the other guys like Towns and Mudiay and the the Knicks will only have a 1 in 4 chance of drafting Okafor.

So next year you have better chance of a Knicks team without Okafor and without Gasol and Aldridge and what really scares me is PJ throws another 100M max contract to KLove if he's available this off season. Let's see what PJ does this off season but if he can't persuade people to sign here on the basis of his reputation what good is he.

ehh I feel people tend to change the past to fit their prerogative. Phil got some cheap youth for Chandler and Felton.

All of this at a time when Felton was the worse starting PG in the league and facing felony charges. It was not a total L alone based on the fact he moved Felton without sending away picks.

Especially when people forget Chandler was injured a lot last season and really didn't play well. Yeah he's playing great now.... its a contract year and he is on a team he wants to be on.

Some people say he should of kept Chandler into the season to try to build up his value.... but we would still be suffering at PG. Also Chandler is the opposite of a Triangle Center. He can't get any points besides lobs to the basket and the occasional putback rebound. His value wouldn't have likely gone up, seeing him f*ck up plays would of likely brought his value down. Especially if he was on the roster during this current losing streak.

More trades are coming. 99% chance it will involve Calderon. Lets see what Phill gets. Not sending a pick is the bare minimum, any thing above that is a perk.

Also people say Phil is doing what walsh did. Well yeah but what Walsh tried to do wasn't wrong. He just messed up because he became obsessed with getting Lebron and Bosh. Walsh traded first round picks to get salary space. He faltered in his cap room plan and got T-Mac (which destroyed any chance NYK had at a 3 max player plan). He also never admitted that the knicks could be locked out of the to FA. The plan B to get Amare and Joe Johnson wasn't bad if the knicks were going all in on SSOL, but they had no answer for when Joe Johnson was matched.

Phil seems to have already come to terms with the fact that all this losing means the knicks aren't really in the running for a top FA. Phil hasn't traded future picks to make cap room. Phil is in full tank mode (remember how the knicks would always go on little win streaks for a few games and the knicks would get the 6th pick). Also the Phil went out there and re-signed the Knicks best player Carmelo Anthony. Even when the knicks were moving salary for Lebron under Walsh getting rid of Zbo (and to a lesser degree Jamal Crawford) was a stupid idea. The only error so far was picking up Calderon, and as I said earlier. If Phil can get his salary off the books then officially the Chandler trade a salary dump trade which fits into the direction the team is now going in.

Phil has taken Walsh's plan and done it significantly better so far. Anyone who says different is discounting all the major mistakes Walsh did during his plan.

The Mea Culpa season as the media is calling it. Phil taking the blame and asking the fans to stop yelling Fire Fisher at the games. It's nice to have cap space but he also needs to get some assets for the players he's trading. I'd still give him an F for this season because this record losing season is not what he expected, he's waving the white flag now because he's being forced to. He expected Calderon to be a factor in a playoff appearance and said as much when the season began, now trading him which they should because he hasn't played better than Felton is an admission that he's been a bust.

He gave you a glimpse of his future game plan questioning signing stars like other GMs have done around here or trading 1st round picks for dubious talents like Bargnani. He said he expects to be active in FA, expects 6 new players but will be selective about who he signs and to not be surprised about anything they do in the future. Building a team piecemeal hasn't been done in the past but this is the time in Knicks history to build the team the right way.

Big talk Phil but drafting Okafor is not in your control and your player decisions and trades can be graded a C at best so far. The jury is out on Phil and I think you can forget a playoff appearance next year with this new patient approach to rebuilding which is another fail with the Knicks not having a 1st rd pick next year. I said the PJ era may be worse than any of his predecessors, which it may be but he may lay the foundation for success by the time he leaves.

Everyone's coming down hard on Phil and Fish because of the losses. This is understandable but Knicks fans have to get realistic. This as been a losing franchise for decades. Each GM comes in and makes minor tweaks instead of destroying and rebuilding. That's what's being done now and it's about three decades over due.

The Knicks may not get the number one pick but they will get a top pick and there are a number of good players coming out of the draft. There are also a number of good free agents without big names. Forget Gasol, he's staying put. But a line up similar to the one I listed above will make for a great future.

donchris said:

Everyone's coming down hard on Phil and Fish because of the losses. This is understandable but Knicks fans have to get realistic. This as been a losing franchise for decades. Each GM comes in and makes minor tweaks instead of destroying and rebuilding. That's what's being done now and it's about three decades over due.

The Knicks may not get the number one pick but they will get a top pick and there are a number of good players coming out of the draft. There are also a number of good free agents without big names. Forget Gasol, he's staying put. But a line up similar to the one I listed above will make for a great future.

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Yeah it's ridiculous to boo this squad being put on the floor. Who honestly expects the team to do well when the two best players is Calderon and Prigioni, who are good, but not even Melo and Amar'e were winning games with them. Fire Fisher? For what?

Even though this is not a fun season, I'm not disgusted. Last season was HORRIFIC. The Woodson Bias Three Ball Iso Era is the worst display of NBA basketball in history.

It's especially strange that fans are so upset because the Knicks are gonna win a championship this season.

donchris, nice thread and responses. high hopes and optimism are something I have as well for this squad, although your starting lineup, as fantastic as it may be, is a wish list that will probably never come to be. i do like it.

in retrospect, losing Chandler probably broke the team's defensity and cohesiveness, seeing how well he's doing as a central cog in a well-oiled Mavs machinery, but he was in contract year, and probably not going to be a Knick much longer, so Phil's long-term vision took over.

Seeing how the Knicks did not perform, and developed a loser mentality caused him to turn the switch off this year, and turn the switch on for the future. I cannot blame him for pulling the plug.

agreed, Phil did what he thought best this year, upgrading the PG position, gaining draft picks that previous administrations gave away, and having hope for a healthy competitive team. Injuries to JR, Shump and STAT, the continued hurt of Bargnani, and eventual implosion of Melo were something he could not have envisioned, zen mastery or not.

Agreed, Calderone is most likely a better backup point guard, and a very good one at that. Knicks tried to get Reggie Jackson in the JR/Shump/Waiters trade, but OKC would not let go of him, so what could he do? not do it, and just hold on to JR/Shump till trade deadline, or clean the roster further in anticipation of free agency and deadline? Everyone in the Knicks world wanted and expected something in return for Junior Sh*t and the oft-injured, never-achieved potential of Shump, but neither fit into the grand scheme as far as playmakers in the triangle, or being worth the money in the near future.

As Phil said so eloquently in the press conference (THAT EVERYONE SHOULD WATCH), Phil said the Knicks would be active towards the trade deadline, would bring in 5 or 6 new guys for next year, and would be open, active and selective. and no one should be surprised at what they do from here on out.

It's more or less a blank slate to draw upon, to build upon, to build around Melo and youth. I'm excited and optimistic for the Knicks to have a chance at a high draft pick for Okafor or Mundial, to have money to lure free agents who Phil chooses to fit into a PROVEN winning offensive and defensive schematic, and to give Knicks fans hope for a new beginning. amen. tank you.

here's a good article that elaborates a tad further:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-sets-knicks-on-course-correction-long-needed

CoolClyde said:

Phil chooses to fit into a PROVEN winning offensive and defensive schematic, and to give Knicks fans hope for a new beginning. amen. tank you.

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You don't need the triangle to win in the NBA and I would scrap it. You even have the guys in the D-League complaining it's too hard to learn, why go through a learning process with this triangle with every new player they get. And why isn't the coaching staff making defensive adjustments almost half way through the season.

Go to a zone or even switch like Woody was doing because they have the same defensive problems they started the season with. Inheriting players and the mistakes of other GM's is one thing but running and sticking with an offensive system that has you dead last in the league is stupid.

tiger0330 said:

You don't need the triangle to win in the NBA and I would scrap it. You even have the guys in the D-League complaining it's too hard to learn, why go through a learning process with this triangle with every new player they get. And why isn't the coaching staff making defensive adjustments almost half way through the season.

Go to a zone or even switch like Woody was doing because they have the same defensive problems they started the season with. Inheriting players and the mistakes of other GM's is one thing but running and sticking with an offensive system that has you dead last in the league is stupid.

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it's not rocket science, and it's not the only reason Knicks have sucked this season. IMHO above.

CoolClyde said:

it's not rocket science, and it's not the only reason Knicks have sucked this season. IMHO above.

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Another reason is DFish, inconsistent lineups which don't allow players to develop any kind of a rhythm. Dolan hires a rookie GM and gives him a lavish 60M long term deal and PJ hires a rookie coach and gives him a lavish 25M long term deal, bone head moves if you ask me.

tiger0330 said:

Another reason is DFish, inconsistent lineups which don't allow players to develop any kind of a rhythm. Dolan hires a rookie GM and gives him a lavish 60M long term deal and PJ hires a rookie coach and gives him a lavish 25M long term deal, bone head moves if you ask me.

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agree... fisher is in way over his head...

donchris said:

Everyone's coming down hard on Phil and Fish because of the losses. This is understandable but Knicks fans have to get realistic. This as been a losing franchise for decades. Each GM comes in and makes minor tweaks instead of destroying and rebuilding. That's what's being done now and it's about three decades over due.

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After the firing of Knicks GM Ernie Grunfeld in 1999, every Knicks GM Cleaned-House.
The names of head coaches change, and the name of 13 roster players change with each GM.
What hasn't change for each new GM was the losing-attitude in the Knicks organization.
From GM Layden to GM Phil Jackson = LOSERS!
I dont have any pity for Phil Jackson, he's another Idiot, or Dolan puppet. u pick?
Phil Jackson became the President in March of a 21-40 record Knicks team.
In March the Knicks players went on to win 16 games out of the final 21 games of season.
In May Phil Jackson Fired the entire Knicks coaching staff, hooray! to only hire some new bum coaches.

The Knicks may not get the number one pick but they will get a top pick and there are a number of good players coming out of the draft. There are also a number of good free agents without big names. Forget Gasol, he's staying put. But a line up similar to the one I listed above will make for a great future.

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The Knicks are not getting the number 1 pick. The Timberwolve or 76ers earned the 2015 top pick without tanking.
Getting a top-5 or a top-10 draft pick is great for any team .. But when u clean-house the way the Knicks clean-house the aftermath leaves no leadership, no direction, and no players to build a team with.
At the end of this season the Knicks will have 5 players with guarantee contracts for the 2015-16 season.
Cleaning-House for the 2nd time with Carmelo Anthony on the roster .. the remaining 5 players want off the Knicks roster.

Donnie Walsh had a chance to build a .500 winning team with his first round Knicks draft picks, and ex-GM Isiah Thomas first round draft players of Nate, W.Chandler, and David Lee, by mixing these young players together.
Walsh only had to get rid of 3 of 4 players (Zach, Curry, Crawford, Jefferies) contract within a two season time to lower the Knicks 2010 cap to sign a FA Lebron to a $100M contract.
Donnie Walsh was a IDIOT!!!

Kiyaman said:

After the firing of Knicks GM Ernie Grunfeld in 1999, every Knicks GM Cleaned-House.
The names of head coaches change, and the name of 13 roster players change with each GM.
What hasn't change for each new GM was the losing-attitude in the Knicks organization.
From GM Layden to GM Phil Jackson = LOSERS!
I dont have any pity for Phil Jackson, he's another Idiot, or Dolan puppet. u pick?
Phil Jackson became the President in March of a 21-40 record Knicks team.
In March the Knicks players went on to win 16 games out of the final 21 games of season.
In May Phil Jackson Fired the entire Knicks coaching staff, hooray! to only hire some new bum coaches.



The Knicks are not getting the number 1 pick. The Timberwolve or 76ers earned the 2015 top pick without tanking.
Getting a top-5 or a top-10 draft pick is great for any team .. But when u clean-house the way the Knicks clean-house the aftermath leaves no leadership, no direction, and no players to build a team with.
At the end of this season the Knicks will have 5 players with guarantee contracts for the 2015-16 season.
Cleaning-House for the 2nd time with Carmelo Anthony on the roster .. the remaining 5 players want off the Knicks roster.

Donnie Walsh had a chance to build a .500 winning team with his first round Knicks draft picks, and ex-GM Isiah Thomas first round draft players of Nate, W.Chandler, and David Lee, by mixing these young players together.
Walsh only had to get rid of 3 of 4 players (Zach, Curry, Crawford, Jefferies) contract within a two season time to lower the Knicks 2010 cap to sign a FA Lebron to a $100M contract.
Donnie Walsh was a IDIOT!!!

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There is no way Phil Jackson can be called an idiot.......
The ONLY decision Jackson could be called an idiot for is signing Melo to a 5 year max deal.
Everything that happened after that fits into what he tried to do......
He went for Caldron and figured thats an upgrade a PG and someone who can run the triangle.
He assumed Bargani would be healthy. He is in his final contract year one would think Bargani's self interest to have a big year and sign a big deal would be motivation but I guess not.....
Jackson even stated our best scenario was to make it to the playoffs maybe......So no matter what this season was a waste no matter how you slice........We could take about not having players signed or a team to build around but no matter what the ONLY way to have success is breaking it down to almost zero and rebuilding....
Calderon will be moved and I am sure Prigioni.....
We will head into the off-season
1. Top 3 lottery Pick
2. Melo, Hardaway, Early and I hope Galloway signed.
3. 38 million in spending
4. 6.5 million trade exception
5. 2,5 million trade exception.....

It will ONLY be then when you can call Phil an idiot because he will have all the tools and no excuses to build a team around his Max signing of Melo......

Now Kiya if it was up to you the plan would be
1. Top 3 lottery Pick
2. Hardaway and Prigioni signed.
3. 60 million in spending
4. 6.5 million trade exception
5. 2.5 million trade exception....

SO THE QUESTION IS ......
Whats best 38 million to spend and Melo
OR
60 MILLION TO SPEND NO MELO

skisloper said:

There is no way Phil Jackson can be called an idiot.......
The ONLY decision Jackson could be called an idiot for is signing Melo to a 5 year max deal.
Everything that happened after that fits into what he tried to do......
He went for Caldron and figured thats an upgrade a PG and someone who can run the triangle.

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For the 2014-15 Knicks season .. Phil Jackson is an IDIOT!
Proof .. name the Knicks starting PG for the 2014-15 season? Larkins?
Larkins belong in the D.League.
There was no way in Calderon's many busted seasons in Toronto that he would be considered a upgrade over Felton for any system.
When Calderon came off the injury list to play his first Knicks game, did u know the Knicks had a 4-10 record.
Calderon's 26 games as the Knicks PG has 1 win, and 25 losses.
Phil Jackson had to receive personal money from owner Cuban in the Tyson trade, by taken 4 or 5 loser contracts.
Tyson and Felton's contract total $23M compared to Calderon's $21M contract.

After the 37 win season of Raymond Felton the entire world knew the Knicks number 1 priority in the offseason were to get a star PG, or two veteran role-player PG.
Tyson Chandler was Phil Jackson only link to getting a star PG for the Knicks in offseason .. Rondo Rondo Rondo

There will be no CP3, Westbrooks, Lillards, or Stephen Curry type of PG in the 2015 draft class.
The Knicks $124M star player is a BUM without a leadership PG.
Who will be the Knicks starter PG for next season? or SG? or PF? or Center?
Who will be the 6th man? 7th? 8th? and 9th man off the bench?

Now u know why Steve Kerr didn't take the Knicks job???

donchris said:

Seems like we Knicks fans say this every year. But this atrocious Knicks team may be a blessing in disguise. For the first time since drafting Patrick Ewing the Knicks have a solid change of landing the number one pick. All of this during the same season that we'll be under the cap and hunting for free agents.

I'm willing to bet that the big name agents stay put. Don't expect Gasol or Aldridge to go anywhere. If we draft Jahlil Okafor, who put up 20 points and 25 rebounds a few games back for Duke, pick up Gordon Dragic as our shooting guard and Paul Millsap at PF we'd have a squad.

J. Okafor
P. Millsap
G. Dragic
C. Anthony
J. Calderon

I think Calderon is a better back up PG at this point of his career, but still not a bad line up. In a few months we'll see how far off my prediction is.

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I think knicks fans need to come to a realization that this is not a quick fix.. First of all until we purge this team of carmelo, his contract, his crappy attitude and honestly his overrated play, it doesn't matter who we draft or sign.

Second, we need to get the millsaps out of our head.. why would he leave such a good situation in Atlanta. I live in Atlanta, right now the team is in a good place, why would milsap leave Atlanta for this mess in NY?

The knicks needed a complete purge which is why I hold phil accountable for this. Carmelo opted out, that was a chance for Phil to say bye bye to sausage face and move on!!

we should be looking at guys like KJ mcdaniel, covington, smaller trades, young guys with upside who are already contributing in a rotation.

Hard truth, our young guys are not that good. Look at what happened when the bench players from other teams play vs our young guys, like charlotte, guys like Robers and even marvin williams looked way better than the young guys we have..

we are going to have to start building a foundation of guys who are actually NBA rotation caliber players, and methodically move up from there, and when we do find that real franchise guy, give him the money.. if we happen to draft him then great..

But the notion of adding older vets to carmelo , stir and bingo you are good, has to stop.

We are soooooo far from being bad.. we need to improve greatly just to be bad.... but that has to start at the top and so far, phil is failing IMO...

the culture hasn't changed, yet we got rid of felton, chandler, etc... the so called "problems" which i never believed..

the knicks would be better off holding onto cap space, keep adding picks and just building this team, each year.. now I know phil doesn't have that kind of time, but I could care less, this is about getting this right this time.. phil can take his 60 mil and high tail it back to his ranch in the midwest, wherever it is... I am thinking get it right, go long term, and give fisher a chance to see if he can do what jacque vaughn is doing in orlando and develop a young team, without the albatrosses of guys like bargnani and carmelo..

what the knicks need skisloper is a methodical build. I think Phil was brought in for a quick fix. Do you honestly see phil taking the next 3 years to add talent and let them develop? is that what we paid 60 mil for? I don't think so..

I always respected phil as a coach, was skeptical of him as a GM or front office person. He is a rookie at this. I wanted more of a forward thinker, someone a bit younger, not so set in their way, who thinks out of the box. It is no coincidence that the raptors are much better, same with the wiz and hawks.

I would love to answer your question.. I would take nothing to spend as long as melo was gone..

but 60 mil to spend and no carmelo is a HUGE win for the knicks..

skisloper said:

Now Kiya if it was up to you the plan would be
1. Top 3 lottery Pick
2. Hardaway and Prigioni signed.
3. 60 million in spending
4. 6.5 million trade exception
5. 2.5 million trade exception....

SO THE QUESTION IS ......
Whats best 38 million to spend and Melo
OR
60 MILLION TO SPEND NO MELO

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It's obvious Kiya would take the $60M with NO Melo, along with a top 10 draft pick, and the 2 trade exception.

Next season the Knicks will probably add 10 to 12 new players on the roster.
At the start of the 2014-15 Knicks season the Knicks added 7 new players to the roster.
At the start of the 2013-14 Knicks season the Knicks added 7 new players to the roster.
At the start of the 2012-13 Knicks season the Knicks added 8 new players to the roster.
In 2011-12 the Knicks added 10 new players to the Knicks roster.

tiger0330 said:

So next year you have better chance of a Knicks team without Okafor and without Gasol and Aldridge and what really scares me is PJ throws another 100M max contract to KLove if he's available this off season.

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KLove said he was going to opt in next season so he won't be available until 2016 if he does. Looks like signing him is a mistake Phil won't get a chance to make.

tiger0330 said:

KLove said he was going to opt in next season so he won't be available until 2016 if he does. Looks like signing him is a mistake Phil won't get a chance to make.

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Lets be glad Jackson has time to think and ponder..........I am very confident he will make the right decisions.....As you watch teams now and see what goes on hopefully his arrogance will not stop him from being openminded.....
Look at the Pistons once they get rid of Josh Smith..............Dont think Cav's have won since JR joined the starting 5....he had a great game but losers bring losing one or the other.....

Please NO Kevin Love.......

PLEASE KNICKS do NOT let SPIKE LEE or James Dolan sit in our lottery seat,,,,,,,,
Fisher should hire Ewing and Let him take the seat and pray we get Okafur

skisloper said:

Fisher should hire Ewing and Let him take the seat and pray we get Okafur

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haha, great idea! just hire him to sit, not actually coach, tho. i'd rather see Phil in the draft seat with his zen mastery and mind control technique.