Curry hasn't graduated to a Pass first point guard, he's improved but not graduated. As far as who we draft, I want the best prospect here for yrs to come regardless of it's attachment to Phil and/or the Triangle. Because for all we know Phil could wake up tomorrow and say he's had enough and a brand new philosophy enters through the Garden doors.
Why the Knicks will draft Emmanuel Mudiay: 10 reasons
- Thread starter Paul1355
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Curry hasn't graduated to a Pass first point guard, he's improved but not graduated. As far as who we draft, I want the best prospect here for yrs to come regardless of it's attachment to Phil and/or the Triangle. Because for all we know Phil could wake up tomorrow and say he's had enough and a brand new philosophy enters through the Garden doors.
Why would you want Curry to be a pass first PG anyway. He's a deadly scorer, maybe he'll be the best in the NBA by the time he's done. Play to your teams strengths, in the Warriors case thats Steph Curry's scoring and 3 pt. shooting.
I hope Phil does wake up and say he's had enough and scraps that triangle but I don't see that as he brings in his new players, whether the player fits in the triangle will be on the top of his list as brings in FA's and with his draft pick. I think you get a glance of that when the Knicks make the pick, I think you hear him and Mills say "We think Player X is a great fit for what we're running at the Knicks."
I think it's asinine, you fit the system around your players and not the other way around if you want the best chance of winning in this league.
I hope Phil does wake up and say he's had enough and scraps that triangle but I don't see that as he brings in his new players, whether the player fits in the triangle will be on the top of his list as brings in FA's and with his draft pick. I think you get a glance of that when the Knicks make the pick, I think you hear him and Mills say "We think Player X is a great fit for what we're running at the Knicks."
I think it's asinine, you fit the system around your players and not the other way around if you want the best chance of winning in this league.
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Wargames
Starter
They say he has the physical tools to play defense but isn't always focused on it. An example of that is in his final game in China where Marbury roasted his team. While it was shown Marbury wasn't his defensive assignment, the fact he didn't try to stop him when he had the best physical tools to do so on the court is a red flag to his mentality towards defense.
Even with that said its likely he would be a decent/good defender in the NBA but he would have to decide to do it and he might not.
Last season if Curry didnt average close to 9 assist per game in regular and postseason games the Clippers wouldve swept GS in the first round, instead Curry became a pass-first PG so the GS vs Clippers became a exciting series go all 7 games down the stretch.
The Spurs, Clippers, n Miami were the top 3 teams to beat in a series last season ..
Lastseason Curry had to over match wits with CP3 or Parker in a series, and that takes using ur strength plus getting your teammates involve.
Coach Derek Fisher triangle-offense system did not display any effort on the defensive-end in all 82 games .. the result lead to coach Fisher losing 65 games so Phil Jackson could receive a top-3 pick (4th pick) in the draft. The Knicks 2014-15 season team were not coach to even TRY to play defense, the Knicks poor-defense were so bad center Dalembert quit in 32 games.
Recall .. HOF Coach Phil Jackson success in the triangle-offense system has always demonstrated to be one of the league top-5 teams in defense. The triangle-offense loss 20% of the 65 losses, 80% of the Knicks losses came from the non-effort defensive-system for a top-3 pick.
Phil Jackson has to put a wiining team on the court next season .. playing players at their best strength
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I ask myself .. is Mudiay the big combo-guard for the 76ers?
Or is Russell the big combo-guard for the 7ers?
Yes .. I want the 76ers to select one of the above PG with the 3rd pick.
The Knicks need vet PG from Trades and FA in the offseason .. we already have a young combo-guard Galloway, and a young big-guard in Thanis (Ariza) to defend 3 position.
Or is Russell the big combo-guard for the 7ers?
Yes .. I want the 76ers to select one of the above PG with the 3rd pick.
The Knicks need vet PG from Trades and FA in the offseason .. we already have a young combo-guard Galloway, and a young big-guard in Thanis (Ariza) to defend 3 position.
mafra
Legend
It's like the NFL: if I'm going to miss on a high draft pick... miss taking the QB, LT, or pass rusher... not on a WR or CB.
We know what Mudiay, WCS, and Pirzingis are... they have a position. What is Winslow? Too small for a SF, not good enough shooter to be a SG... he's the classic tweener.
NOW... I realize he's only 19... and flashed enough offensive potential to make it intriguing... BUT, you have to be sold on his impending stardom to take him at 4... You cannot squander this opportunity on a system/role/complimentary player. I don't care about best fit for this upcoming season... If that is the thinking... trade the pick for a proven talent AND to dump Calderon's contract.
Wargames
Starter
Do you realize that Mudiay also has the highest bust potential of all the players mentioned at #4 so far? Hell if Mudiay doesn't fit the system the knicks play that also means for the next few seasons his growth might be stunted and then if we move on to a new system then what? what if the knicks run the triangle for the next 4 years? what if the move to a new system and he doesn't fit there either? We have no idea if he'll become a star he's not a freak of nature like Westbrook, rose, or wall was. He's just a bigger PG like MCW, tyreke evans, and Exum are with good court vision but bad shooting (almost exactly like tyreke evans was coming in the league).
The knicks have 3 back to back seasons of having money to add significant pieces in FA. Unless they don't improve now (by getting rookies who will need time to figure out the system or might bust) they will also be running the triangle for all of those season. That alone should mean they are in a win now mode because that $$$ means they can improve without fear of becoming a treadmill team. So getting a guy who fits now should be the priority.
The knicks have 3 back to back seasons of having money to add significant pieces in FA. Unless they don't improve now (by getting rookies who will need time to figure out the system or might bust) they will also be running the triangle for all of those season. That alone should mean they are in a win now mode because that $$$ means they can improve without fear of becoming a treadmill team. So getting a guy who fits now should be the priority.
mafra
Legend
All valid points... I see your argument, and agree for the most part. These are all young (19 yrs-old), relatively unknowns (Okafor, Towns, Russell, Pirzingis, Mudiay, Winslow). The safest plays, based on system/need, are Willie Cauley-Stein or Frank Kaminsky.
WCS spent 3 years @ Kentucky; Frank is a senior. Both are legit 7-footers... Both are triangle guys, who would flourish in the system... Frank would be like Horace Grant - L.Odom - L.Walton, with his arsenal of offensive skills. WCS would be like J-Noah... his rim protection and versatility on defense is special/unique, and something Phil is on record saying he covets. You can say these same things about Winslow (who could be our Rick Fox / Scottie Pippen)... The difference is, WCS & FK are the safer bets to contribute... play a role... this upcoming season.
I do believe... despite fact Mudiay, Pirzgingis, Herzonia are all highly-touted... With Phil-Melo and our cap space... We have 4 guys on our board: WCS, Winslow, Stanley Johnson, Kaminsky. I think we have a big board that had 2 guys on tier-1 (Okafor, Towns), 1 guy on tier-2 (Russell), 7 guys on tier-3 (but 3 of those either too risky / not best fit).
NOW THE QUESTION IS... How much do we like the tier-3 prospects? Do we prefer one in particular, or more especially? If not, then we can comfortably pick in the 4-10 range... so why not hope to trade back and pick up an asset or dump Calderon. If we don't love the potential of the tier-3 prospects... then we see what sort of assets are being offered to trade this pick.
Personally, I think 75:25... if we stay at 4... We go Winslow/WCS.
Wargames
Starter
I like Herzonia a lot. He reminds me of a younger Melo in his game and I wouldn't be mad at all getting him because I think he could be that future star everyone is looking for. The knicks have spoken about having a lot of scouts in Europe so I wouldn't be surprised if Herzonia or Pirzgingis are on their draft board. They said they saw players over in Europe who they would love to add to the knicks.
Also the more I go over these draft picks the more I agree with you. Unless one the supposed top 3 falls or one of the lower tier guys impress the hell out of in their workouts. I wouldn't be surprised if the knicks trade back 2 - 3 spots to get an asset and a later pick(s). the Kings and the Nuggest could both use a change in PG.
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Wargames
Starter
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Knowing the knicks luck that would be how this all ends up if they draft for potential. Mudiay becomes an All Star at the same time Melo and Monroe are washed up.....
What are you talking about? Mudiay was rated 2nd coming out of high school. When we talk IQ his basketball IQ is solid but he is still raw. He went to China because of bad grades and in eligibility.
I reccomened you watching the McDonald's all American game where he shined brighter than towns, okafor, and Winslow. He was maybe the best player on the floor. He can ball.
Imagine the uproar if Phil used the 4th pick lm a European player? I doubt Phil goes that way.
Hezonja and Prozingis will be good players but they are projects and Phil wants a NBA ready player. The most NBA ready at 4 in my opinion is Winslow
I think you're right on, the guy who can contribute immediately and who best fits the triangle will be the top priorities with the pick.
Winslow probably fits that profile better than Mudiay.
Mudiay just via default will be NBA ready because whoever selects him(team need), he starts and takes on a larger role than Winslow and as much a role as Towns/Okafor/Russell. Unless you'd feel Mudiay would absolutely flop first yr, there's really no weight to the argument of NBA ready between he and Winslow.
And once again you can't skate around the fact he's actually played against NBA talent..... most of the players in this draft haven't. I know it's hard to embrace and grasp amidst all the lesser caliber asians in the league but it doesn't totally nullify the field in it's entirety.
Matter of fact using our team as an example, Mudiay would start before Winslow if it came down to it.
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If the kid were ready to play at the level of Mirotic, it wouldn't be preposterous. We're the same fan base overall, cool with drafting Gallo and even willing to draft Rubio(with the risk to wait). Herzonja could be much better than both of them. He could be the next biggest Euro prospect to come along since Dirk/Ginobli/Parker.
Even if we draft any of the said mix of prospects in play....here's what many of you are going to find out. Many of the prospects we don't pick, you're gonna wish we had. Either next yr or the couple yrs to follow.
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Those are big "maybe" you are throwing out there. Few euro players have had the impact those you mentioned have had. For now Hezonja is a trigger happy guard with bad maturity and an incredible skill set. Porzingis is a super skinny big man with an outside shot and plays with tenacity.
However one needs to grow up personality wise and the other needs to grow up physically. Both long term projects. Not so much NBA ready to contribute from day one. Phil wants a ready player since Melo isn't getting an younger.
Not denying this, but just because of our circumstance and what we feel the suits want may not be in the best interest of the franchise say 10-15yrs down the road. Fans talk like Phil is gonna be around until he's 100yrs old. We need as close as possible to a generational type talent if said player is in this draft.....not a pick we can feel emotionally satisfied with. Because such feeling of satisfaction is very likely to be fulfilled by other teams picking. We need just as much Upside in the pick as NBA ready, I'd argue even more so. Keep in mind Melo does have an opt out 2yrs after next season concludes.
For the record I do feel the organization is feeling pressure with Melo factor looming but I'm of the mindset I hope as time goes by we'll have someone like a la Brandon Suhr talking sense into Phil and telling him make the pick aside from Melo and aside from free agency.
mafra
Legend
This is what Chad Ford said about our pick: "Alex (New York): If you are Phil Jackson what is your draft day plan for #4?
Ford: Be patient. Take whoever falls. I think there are five guys worthy of the No. 1 pick. At four you?ll have your choice of two of them. Of the five guys, I don?t believe Towns or Russell will be there. But there are scenarios where Okafor, Mudiay or Porzingis will be there. And I hear that Justise Winslow has some strong support in New York. And two different sources today told me the Knicks are also looking strongly at Willie Cauley-Stein. They want a strong defender in New York which explains the Winslow and Cauley-Stein interest."