The Knicks' offer sheet to Tim Hardaway Jr. has to be the WORST contract in 2017

There was no way the Hawks were going to resign THJ to 4 yr at $40M .. Hawks are not matching that ridiculous offer!

We are TANKING each of the next 4 seasons .. Stupid is what stupid does!
Tim Hardaway don't play a lick of defense .. opponents score on THJ at will.
I do not want corny THJ performance taking rookie Dotson playing-time minutes because of this ridiculous pay raise contract. I would have been ok resigning Holiday.
I thought we were trying to sign Rondo & Simmons !!!

Not just 2017, considering the circumstances the back story behind Hardaway and the knicks, this contract is ridiculous in an Epic way. I like Timmy, got to watch him a lot down here in Atlanta, the fans liked him. good kid, but this is a bad contract, and no surprise comming from the knicks.. As I said, the knicks problems were deeper, than Phil Jackson.

Teams have to overpay to snag a RFA, and some sort of poison pills are always involved. THJr is a 12-15 mil type player, at best.... obviously NYK grossly overpaid.... but we are NYK and this is what we do best.

New NYK motto.... a re-branding under Mill:

"We don't just F-up; we F-up like nobody can imagine."

mafra said:

https://www.postingandtoasting.com/...-tim-hardaway-jr-is-a-good-move-by-the-knicks

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Tim does some good things like the article says but the Pistons renounced KCP because there was a question of value, SVG said do I want to pay a guy max money when he didn't even shoot 40%. The overwhelming majority of fans don't like this deal but the Knicks think he's going to be a very good player and part of the future, time will tell who is right.

tiger0330 said:

Tim does some good things like the article says but the Pistons renounced KCP because there was a question of value, SVG said do I want to pay a guy max money when he didn't even shoot 40%. The overwhelming majority of fans don't like this deal but the Knicks think he's going to be a very good player and part of the future, time will tell who is right.

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listen, maybe he will be a good player for us. that would be great. he has potential.
nevertheless, we don't need time to know this was an awful contract. it doesn't matter how good you think a guy is GOING to be. you offer what he's worth right NOW. i have not seen one report saying that anyone was offering him anything close to this kind of money.
but i have to agree with kiya on this. timmy's going to be taking minutes away from dotson, and that's probably not going to be a good thing if we want to really develop the younger guys. and apparently mills had stated that was part of the main goal for this season.
and let's say timmy ends up playing really well, AND dotson turns out to be good for us too. now let's say another team is really interested in trading for timmy by ASB. why the hell did we include that 15% trade kicker?! maybe i'm misunderstanding the way those kickers work? LMAO.

and1 said:

listen, maybe he will be a good player for us. that would be great. he has potential.
nevertheless, we don't need time to know this was an awful contract. it doesn't matter how good you think a guy is GOING to be. you offer what he's worth right NOW. i have not seen one report saying that anyone was offering him anything close to this kind of money.
but i have to agree with kiya on this. timmy's going to be taking minutes away from dotson, and that's probably not going to be a good thing if we want to really develop the younger guys. and apparently mills had stated that was part of the main goal for this season.
and let's say timmy ends up playing really well, AND dotson turns out to be good for us too. now let's say another team is really interested in trading for timmy by ASB. why the hell did we include that 15% trade kicker?! maybe i'm misunderstanding the way those kickers work? LMAO.

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I agree with you about not paying a guy anymore than another team is willing to pay a player. Definitely a reach to pay Timmy 71M if no one else had an offer like that on the table. Seems an odd signing because it runs counter to what we heard about what Mills wanted to do in the off-season which was to sign a vet PG to help Frank and to avoid splashy big $ FA contracts. It was out of the blue as well, never heard THJ name linked with the Knicks at all. Seems like one of those WTF signings that the Knicks always do.

As far as taking away minutes from Dotson, Timmy has size at 6'6" so he can play the 3 so we can run Dotson and him together so him taking away minutes from Dotxon shouldn't be an issue. I think wer're going to score in buckets with THJ and Dotson on the floor together.

No reason Dotson and THJr can't share the court.... I don't like the contract but I like the pick-up. Prime years ahead, has good background, can shoot and help kP score and we have our 1st rounder back.

We always deal away our picks.... glad we are building around our first rounders....

Like TIG said, NYK feel his best years are ahead of him. Who cares about cap space bc we never even get B free agents to sign with us...

If we made an offer of 4/30 or 4/40, there's a chance ATL matches. So, for an extra 5-6 mil a year we made sure we got the guy we wanted.

If Frank, Dotson, THJr, KP, WHG for a nice core 4, with their offensive potential.... we'll live with this.

We have to see what other moves are made but NYK now protected themselves from fans saying we traded for Rose for nothing....

We got THJr back.... so, almost like Phil never dealt him.

Had THJr played well for us last 2 years, and we just signed him to this extension.... it wouldn't look
As bad.

Alright, I went to Hoopshype and looked at NBA players' salaries to find deals to compare with THJ's 4 years for 71 million (approximately 17.7 million per year). Here's what I found:

Victor Oladipo - 4 years for 84 million (21 million per year) - 25-years-old, averaged 15.9 ppg last season.

Evan Fournier - signed a 5 year for 85 million contract last season, has 4 years for 68 million remaining (17 million per year) - 24-years-old, averaged 17.2 ppg last season

Dennis Schroder - reported as a 4 year for 70 million contract, which should be 17.5 million per year, but for some reason Hoopshype has it listed as 15.5 million per year (math?) - 23-years-old, averaged 17.9 ppg and 6.3 apg last season

That's it. Those are the only guards I could find who have 4 year contracts (or 4 years remaining) that aren't still on rookie contracts or aren't max contract players making at least 10 million more per season.

My conclusion, the NBA payscale is broken and if you are judging THJ only by his numbers as a starter for Atlanta last year (18.5 ppg on efficient shooting) and his age, 25-years-old, this, sadly enough, might actually be market value for him.

Still, this contract is nuts.

htr10 said:

Alright, I went to Hoopshype and looked at NBA players' salaries to find deals to compare with THJ's 4 years for 71 million (approximately 17.7 million per year). Here's what I found:

Victor Oladipo - 4 years for 84 million (21 million per year) - 25-years-old, averaged 15.9 ppg last season.

Evan Fournier - signed a 5 year for 85 million contract last season, has 4 years for 68 million remaining (17 million per year) - 24-years-old, averaged 17.2 ppg last season

Dennis Schroder - reported as a 4 year for 70 million contract, which should be 17.5 million per year, but for some reason Hoopshype has it listed as 15.5 million per year (math?) - 23-years-old, averaged 17.9 ppg and 6.3 apg last season

That's it. Those are the only guards I could find who have 4 year contracts (or 4 years remaining) that aren't still on rookie contracts or aren't max contract players making at least 10 million more per season.

My conclusion, the NBA payscale is broken and if you are judging THJ only by his numbers as a starter for Atlanta last year (18.5 ppg on efficient shooting) and his age, 25-years-old, this, sadly enough, might actually be market value for him.

Still, this contract is nuts.

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Dying to see what a team offers KCP. He was looking for a max contract but what rookie wouldn't be. I think the Hawks might offer him a similar deal to what Timmy got. Not going rule out they match either despite the fan outrage, they lost a lot of players and have a number of free agents that might not be back, ATL might match out of necessity.

tiger0330 said:

Dying to see what a team offers KCP. He was looking for a max contract but what rookie wouldn't be. I think the Hawks might offer him a similar deal to what Timmy got. Not going rule out they match either despite the fan outrage, they lost a lot of players and have a number of free agents that might not be back, ATL might match out of necessity.

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Yeah, the more I look at other players' contracts, the more I think that it's not so crazy that Atlanta, who gave their starting PG Schroder 4 years 70 million, might be willing to match 4 years 71 million for THJ, who finished the season as their starting SG and thrived in that role.

In the end, if we didn't have that big Noah contract and we were planning to move Lee and Melo without taking back anything longer than a 2-year deal in return, you could view this THJ offer as a calculated risk on a young player by a bad team. Instead, it's a bad team using what's left of its cap space to get a guy who doesn't move the needle enough.

I mean the THJ offer might not be that bad on its own (NBA players everywhere are overpaid...Mike Conley got 130 million despite never making an all-star team in his life) but the problem here is that the Knicks suck

If we sign THJ we get into that hell where we're good enough to *maybe* make the playoffs and win 40 games. We'll make it into the playoffs, get swept by the Cavs or the Celtics, get the 17th pick in the draft, which is good enough to get us a mediocre player like Jerian Grant. This way we'll suck forever until KP finally decides to leave and we rebuild for real

The biggest problem with the THJr signing I have is this:

We have PHil make the draft pick, then fire him.

We have Mill make this signing, knowing he won't be GM moving forward. Well, now that new GM will be stuck with this cap hit for 4 years.

It's like Dolan didn't learn from
His previous mistake, when the last interim GM made that awful Bargnani trade.... when that probably sabotaged the Melo era (bc we would've traded for Lowry instead).

It makes no sense. Would Mill draft Frenchie? Will the new GM want 4 years of THJr at 19 mil per?

mafra said:

The biggest problem with the THJr signing I have is this:

We have PHil make the draft pick, then fire him.

We have Mill make this signing, knowing he won't be GM moving forward. Well, now that new GM will be stuck with this cap hit for 4 years.

It's like Dolan didn't learn from
His previous mistake, when the last interim GM made that awful Bargnani trade.... when that probably sabotaged the Melo era (bc we would've traded for Lowry instead).

It makes no sense. Would Mill draft Frenchie? Will the new GM want 4 years of THJr at 19 mil per?

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that is indeed another issue. i guess we have to assume that mills is going to be our GM for the foreseeable future.
either that, or someone else gets hired and they end up shaking up the roster and once again we'll be experiencing more inconsistency.
i'm at the point where there is no way i would bet on what i think the knicks will do next, but i am getting the feeling that mills is going to be the guy for a while.

NY Post:

"Young, long and athletic. The Knicks? primary goal next season is growing their young core, more so than snatching the No. 8 playoff seed. If it means having a nice spot in the lottery for Missouri?s Michael Porter Jr., so be it.


According to an NBA source, the Knicks want to build their team around prospects Kristaps Porzingis, new point guard Frank Ntilikina, center Willy Hernangomez and the 6-foot-6 Hardaway ? if Atlanta does not match the generous offer sheet by Saturday night.

That?s three Europeans and a Michigan alum Knicks scouts fell in love with in 2013. The Knicks drafted him 24th before Jackson arrived to clean house with the coaching staff and roster. Nevertheless, the Knicks scouts are still here ? Alan Houston, who has Mills? ear, Mark Hughes, Mark Warkentien, Walker Russell, Jamie Matthews.

Porzingis turns 22 in August. Hernangomez is 23. Ntilikina turns 19 in two weeks. Hardaway is 25.

It?s the new plan, and one not darkened by the cloud of Jackson?s triangle offense or his feuds with Carmelo Anthony and Porzingis. Remember after the season Jackson said he was not looking for ?athletes who can jump out of the gym?? but guys who could fit into a team system. Mills is seeking athletes.

f the Knicks snag Hardaway, it will accelerate their youth movement, with intentions of creating a high-speed, pace-and-space offense for the millennial generation and one Jeff Hornacek implemented in Phoenix.

Hardaway, who was a candidate for Most Improved Player this year after being a first-team All-Rookie as a Knick, is a better fit than Dion Waiters. Mills went after Waiters first because the Syracuse product is unrestricted.

Hardaway, in Jackson?s eyes, didn?t fit into the cerebral, triangle-savvy, pass-first philosophy. And Hardaway and former coach Derek Fisher were at odds.

Vaulting into the starting lineup of a playoff-team Hawks and learning to care about defense under Atlanta taskmaster Mike Budenholzer, Hardaway still has room to grow.

Knicks officials are well-acquainted with Hall-of-Fame finalist Tim Hardaway Sr., who was around the organization a lot during his son?s rookie year before he landed on the Pistons staff. Hardaway Sr. and Knicks officials staged conversations at the Orlando summer league, the father assuring them his son would love a second chance.

There was considerable fan outrage over the size of the Hardaway offer sheet, but this is an investment. And for the first time in three years, it?s not an investment in the triangle.

A little over 12 hours until the midnight Saturday deadline for Atlanta to match THJ's offer sheet.

If they match, we are literally coming away with nothing from this free agent period. If they don't match, we have a heck of a lot of cap space invested in a team that is not going to scare anyone.

htr10 said:

A little over 12 hours until the midnight Saturday deadline for Atlanta to match THJ's offer sheet.

If they match, we are literally coming away with nothing from this free agent period. If they don't match, we have a heck of a lot of cap space invested in a team that is not going to scare anyone.

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Bembry scored 22pts in the Hawks SL game. Tim's replacement for way less money. THJ is a Knick at midnight.

tiger0330 said:

Dembry scored 22pts in the Hawks SL game. Tim's replacement for way less money. THJ is a Knick at midnight.

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I'm shocked how people on this forum keep citing Summer League performances as evidence that a guy is NBA ready.

I'm on the fence how this is going to play out. No one wants THJ's contract on our books, but neither the Knicks nor the Hawks have any other free agents clamoring to join them and that is unlikely to change in the next 2 years.