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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by htr10
    Totally agree. I’m trying to not come down too hard on Mudiay because I spent an entire year bashing the kid his rookie season, but yeah, I don’t think he’s all that great. Burke should at least get a chance for us to find out if his success is a fluke or not.
    I don't disagree Burke is the best lead guard(clearly) we have, but I totally disagree with you and Mike as to who plays with who. I don't care who starts really if the mix of players is right. Maybe it could work for a yr since #kporzee is down featuring Burke but he/#kporzee/Kanter/THJR is not a good mix for offensive efficiency...Sorry. Burke dancin and prancin trying to get his and maximizing equal to better talents around him probably isn't a real working recipe. He has to be a clear feature

    Especially if we draft another player who is really offensively gifted in some way it will only complicate matters. Actually the way we're using Burke is perfect no need to tinker with it at all. He's a feature with the 2nd unit. Might not get off as well if he starts. I believe he will get a chance to start again before season's end but I like how he's used. There's no need to limit any of our young guards minutes, I would like to see Mudiay and Knits play more together to force them to do more offensively.

  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by Broadway
    I don't disagree Burke is the best lead guard(clearly) we have, but I totally disagree with you and Mike as to who plays with who. I don't care who starts really if the mix of players is right. Maybe it could work for a yr since #kporzee is down featuring Burke but he/#kporzee/Kanter/THJR is not a good mix for offensive efficiency...Sorry. Burke dancin and prancin trying to get his and maximizing equal to better talents around him probably isn't a real working recipe. He has to be a clear feature

    Especially if we draft another player who is really offensively gifted in some way it will only complicate matters. Actually the way we're using Burke is perfect no need to tinker with it at all. He's a feature with the 2nd unit. Might not get off as well if he starts. I believe he will get a chance to start again before season's end but I like how he's used. There's no need to limit any of our young guards minutes, I would like to see Mudiay and Knits play more together to force them to do more offensively.
    Burke shouldn’t be punished for the rest of our team being a bunch of incomplete players. Burke should start over Mudiay, Ntilikina should start over Lee, and if we had any guts, we’d start Troy Williams over Beasley. In my mind, whoever starts at wing is a placeholder anyway because that’s the position we’re drafting and with a top 10 pick we have a good chance to get a guy who could be good enough to start day 1 next year.

    We can worry about the fit with KP a year from now.

  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by htr10
    Burke shouldn’t be punished for the rest of our team being a bunch of incomplete players. Burke should start over Mudiay, Ntilikina should start over Lee, and if we had any guts, we’d start Troy Williams over Beasley. In my mind, whoever starts at wing is a placeholder anyway because that’s the position we’re drafting and with a top 10 pick we have a good chance to get a guy who could be good enough to start day 1 next year.

    We can worry about the fit with KP a year from now.
    Burke isn't being punished in any way. He's played the most minutes he's ever played in consecutive games since his arrival and is a clear feature on offense and it's working. This coming all off the bench. Starting is really over played in many respects. We actually need to get the most out "all of the young players" not any 1 particular. Including seeing more of Dotson. They did say during last telecast Knits and Burke might start at some point which I would like to see. If they all play their 20-30min starting is more window dressing than anything.

    When you take into consideration the +/- which you're a big proponent on...Burke had the most negative of the bench players last game, so it may matter who a player is playing with.

    I agree let's see less of Beasley and Thomas. I want to see Burke with Dotson and Mudiay with Knits, I do not care who starts with the pairings as long as they get minutes. T-Will will work with any group I believe, he's a flat out hustle make something happen type player with his athleticism

  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by Broadway
    Burke isn't being punished in any way. He's played the most minutes he's ever played in consecutive games since his arrival and is a clear feature on offense and it's working. This coming all off the bench. Starting is really over played in many respects. We actually need to get the most out "all of the young players" not any 1 particular. Including seeing more of Dotson. They did say during last telecast Knits and Burke might start at some point which I would like to see. If they all play their 20-30min starting is more window dressing than anything.

    When you take into consideration the +/- which you're a big proponent on...Burke had the most negative of the bench players last game, so it may matter who a player is playing with.

    I agree let's see less of Beasley and Thomas. I want to see Burke with Dotson and Mudiay with Knits, I do not care who starts with the pairings as long as they get minutes. T-Will will work with any group I believe, he's a flat out hustle make something happen type player with his athleticism
    I do love personal plus/minus. If you look at that game against Boston, it really shows you that Boston won because of Kyrie and to a lesser extent Tatum.

    Ntilikina had the 2nd highest plus/minus for us behind Lance Thomas who, while being a limited talent, has been playing his guts out in the 2 games since the All-Star break.

    This fan base is going to be split for the next year between fans who think Mudiay is part of our future and fans who think Mudiay is not good enough to keep past the end of his current contract. Personally, I think Mudiay coming off the bench against backups at least might give him a chance to have a career.

  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by htr10
    Burke shouldn’t be punished for the rest of our team being a bunch of incomplete players. Burke should start over Mudiay, Ntilikina should start over Lee, and if we had any guts, we’d start Troy Williams over Beasley. In my mind, whoever starts at wing is a placeholder anyway because that’s the position we’re drafting and with a top 10 pick we have a good chance to get a guy who could be good enough to start day 1 next year.

    We can worry about the fit with KP a year from now.
    Trey Burke has been a 2018-19 KEEPER since the GLeague !!!
    Burke is not being punished .. Dolan n Front office n Hornacek are tanking for a 1 to 10 Lottery pick in June.
    Mudiay n THJ need to get plenty minute together in the backcourt having Kanter as their PnR man.
    Burke n Knits need to be tandem in the backcourt to bring a winning energy off the bench the remainder of the season having Quinn as their PnR man.

  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by htr10
    I do love personal plus/minus. If you look at that game against Boston, it really shows you that Boston won because of Kyrie and to a lesser extent Tatum.

    Ntilikina had the 2nd highest plus/minus for us behind Lance Thomas who, while being a limited talent, has been playing his guts out in the 2 games since the All-Star break.

    This fan base is going to be split for the next year between fans who think Mudiay is part of our future and fans who think Mudiay is not good enough to keep past the end of his current contract. Personally, I think Mudiay coming off the bench against backups at least might give him a chance to have a career.
    With exception to the Boston game, Lance Thomas has actually been god awful in the +/- past half dozen games or so in totality(dating back to the Bucks game, go check for yourself...no lie prior to trade deadline).

    Mudiay is on the wrong side of this metric himself..lo and behold playing them together is probably not a good thing because they have bad +/- as starters and bench players. Starting them "together" is a definite NO NO! They've already played too many minutes together IMO but these are things coaching staffs hopefully sort out in the long run.

    Lebron James had the worst +/- of all starters in the NBA for a whole month did you know that? It was a heavy topic on Undisputed leading right up to IT and the gang being traded.

    +/- is very tricky, it has to be kept in context because it really does matter who you play with and/or against. For some players it is a tell all but I wouldn't recommend getting into a habit drawing full conclusions as a rule on how to judge players in general.
    Last edited by Broadway; Feb 26, 2018 at 07:53.

  7. #37
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    As of now Burke is our Lou Williams. At least that's how I see him, let's see if this is a role he excels in or is it something else

    Lou Williams currently comes off the bench for the Clippers(has started several games for them this yr) and has come off the bench for the majority of his career, although he's probably always been a Top 5 player on any team he's been on.

    I do feel he could be coming off the bench at this point because Clippers probably want him to win 6th Man award. With that being said Lou Will still gets busy nevertheless at over 30min/gm and dropped 35 last time out. Austin Rivers starts at 2 guard instead. Austin had a +/- of 8 in the green Lou had a +/- 2 in the red. +/- is definitely a context stat maybe of all metrics out there, I implore be careful with it...lol

  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by Broadway
    With exception to the Boston game, Lance Thomas has actually been god awful in the +/- past half dozen games or so in totality(dating back to the Bucks game, go check for yourself...no lie prior to trade deadline).

    Mudiay is on the wrong side of this metric himself..lo and behold playing them together is probably not a good thing because they have bad +/- as starters and bench players. Starting them "together" is a definite NO NO! They've already played too many minutes together IMO but these are things coaching staffs hopefully sort out in the long run.

    Lebron James had the worst +/- of all starters in the NBA for a whole month did you know that? It was a heavy topic on Undisputed leading right up to IT and the gang being traded.

    +/- is a very tricky, it has to be kept in context because it really does matter who you play with and/or against. For some players it is a tell all but I wouldn't recommend getting into a habit drawing full conclusions as a rule on how to judge players in general.
    I only mentioned LT for the Boston game as an aside because Ntilikina had the 2nd highest +/- to him. LT stinks, but he plays hard.

    I think you guys keep downplaying personal plus/minus, but if you look at it every game, it tells more of a story than you think. You might argue that it is the easiest way to see the value or detriment of guys who are doing things out there other than recording traditional stats. Tyson Chandler never put up big numbers in blocks or steals, but he made teams better when he was on the court.

    I think we have a few guys who make us better when they’re on the court. Unfortunately, one of them is O’Quinn and he is gone at the end of the season most likely.

  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by htr10
    I only mentioned LT for the Boston game as an aside because Ntilikina had the 2nd highest +/- to him. LT stinks, but he plays hard.

    I think you guys keep downplaying personal plus/minus, but if you look at it every game, it tells more of a story than you think. You might argue that it is the easiest way to see the value or detriment of guys who are doing things out there other than recording traditional stats. Tyson Chandler never put up big numbers in blocks or steals, but he made teams better when he was on the court.

    I think we have a few guys who make us better when they’re on the court. Unfortunately, one of them is O’Quinn and he is gone at the end of the season most likely.

    You really think O'Quinn is gone? I think he could opt in this summer, he is a Perry guy. I was never enamored with the acquisition of KO but he's done his part when given the chance

  10. #40
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    Originally Posted by Broadway
    You really think O'Quinn is gone? I think he could opt in this summer, he is a Perry guy. I was never enamored with the acquisition of KO but he's done his part when given the chance
    I assumed he could get more money elsewhere. Hmm, maybe not.

  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by Broadway
    You really think O'Quinn is gone? I think he could opt in this summer, he is a Perry guy. I was never enamored with the acquisition of KO but he's done his part when given the chance
    KOQuinn has been the Knicks best player for the PF position the past 3 seasons .. the Knicks had plans on TANKING those 3 season so they give KO'Quinn 18 minute per game at the center position in lineups with 3 to 4 Guards lineup.
    The Knicks could have had a winning season having Quinn n Noah in the 2nd unit lineup with Mcderm or Beasley at SF and THJ at SG and Knits at PG. But the Knicks started the 2017-18 regurlar season TANKING with the 0-3 start !!!

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