Current Knicks Defense and Off ratings

Through 17 games on off court Def and Off ratings along with net diff.

Best Defensive players off/on court Thomas and Dotson. Nits -4.9 in line with Trey, Vonleh and MRob. Hardaway the worst defensive diff, a terrible +17, Mudiay and Kanter are poor defenders as well. From NBA.com

Based on the above the logical choice at PG would be Trey when Fiz finishes tinkering.

So many agendas within the fans base...not KO per say


1 yr we go from talking up lock down defenders ~ Shumpert & Douglas

Another yr we go from talking up hockey assists ~ Melo

Another yr from talking about need for a stretch 4 X factor piece ~ Bargnani

Another yr from talking about positive signs attracting free agents ~ Afflalo

Another yr from talking about having a unicorn ~ #kporzee

Another yr about how great our drafting is ~ #kporzee, Cleanthony, Thanasis, Jordan, Grant, Knits, Dotson, Willy

Another yr about +/- on off court overall

Another yr about +/- on off court defense

LOL @ this Fan Base.

Quite funny we're stuck on the Defensive Net rating when there's currently an article discussing our lottery pick who I remind everyone blew Miles Bridges out of the water during a workout showing same tendencies in college for not staying connected(LOW MOTOR) in a game and then the ongoing issue of a "so called" point guard who never started at this position overseas who can't score or hit a 3 to save his life in a league that made it easier to score and emphasizes the 3 ball...:?

But this is what we're discussing as paramount currently? For the record I do like our picks a little more than the previous bunch but if they are what we think they are we should be avoiding the continual lottery results.


Oh and don't let things slip like some of us are accustomed to doing when making player comparisons but Trae Young snuck a 25/17 game on the league the other night but I'm sure Atlanta constantly shows him how he can't score on Knits to keep him grounded :teeth:

More advanced stats on our players. This one off of NYKFP.com from ESPN. I think these stats are more useful than when Tommy Beer tweets when Knits plays 30 mins or more we're 3-1 and when he plays less we're 1-13 or something like that as an endorsement of Nits because these stats say he borderline stinks. It's early in the season and with Fiz juggling his lineups we don't have large enough sample sizes on guys to really determine their impact as a caveat about any statistic.

Knicks' ranks out of 430 total players in ESPN's Real Plus-Minus (RPM):

92. Hardaway Jr.
93. Vonleh
97. Robinson
206. Thomas
221. Burke
232. Kornet
267. Mudiay
308. Baker
332. Dotson
359. Kanter
411. Ntilikina
413. Trier
424. Knox
425. Hezonja

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With Ntilikina on the court, we lose 100 to 90. With Ntilkina off the court, we lose 130 to 120. We just keep losing, which will continue until the last 2 weeks of the season when we win 5 of our last 6 and end up with the 7th pick in the draft.

htr10 said:

With Ntilikina on the court, we lose 100 to 90. With Ntilkina off the court, we lose 130 to 120. We just keep losing, which will continue until the last 2 weeks of the season when we win 5 of our last 6 and end up with the 7th pick in the draft.

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Spoken like a long term suffering Knicks fan. lol

Its kind of hard to rate any Knick players after Fizdale's fake coaching for 17 regular season games, and preseason games.
The science behind Fizdale's many changes in the starting lineups and the many different game rotation in less than 17 games in the season, plus Fizdale selected a starting lineup to start the regular season that Fizdale never put on the court in any of the preseason games .. its hard to rate the 5 game starting lineup or the individual players in the lineup. Why? So many NBA teams started out slow this season but kept their same lineups and game rotation. Example: Look at the Houston Rockets they just won 4 straight games after taking one player out of their rotation 4 games ago.

The 17 game Knicks does not have a Game-Plan, nor do they have a basic system the team rely on in offense or defense.

Here's the current real +/- ESPN numbers for the Knicks players. Nits , Zo and Knox with abysmal real RPM stats, currently ranked 471, 472 and 473 respectively out of 475 NBA players in real RPM. I did read a comment that the Knicks hoped that Nits and Knox stats were not a a true indication of their abilities but Triers poor showing is new. BTW, the best real RPM player is Harden, the worst is Sexton of the Cavs.


New York Knicks

Thanks Tig, I'm going to use this on Twitter and tag some people. They aren't going to like what they see. I don't care for RPM but I'm going to post this to prove a point. BTW aren't the numbers quite different than when the season started?

Broadway said:

Thanks Tig, I'm going to use this on Twitter and tag some people. They aren't going to like what they see. I don't care for RPM but I'm going to post this to prove a point. BTW aren't the numbers quite different than when the season started?

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Like all stats you have to take them with a grain of salt but this real RPM is what ESPN uses in their team predictions for the season and I believe they have been accurate in predicting how teams would perform but I would think the Wiz will be an outlier this season so no stat is perfect but it has been good in predicting the Knicks win loss record the past several seasons.

tiger0330 said:

Like all stats you have to take them with a grain of salt but this real RPM is what ESPN uses in their team predictions for the season and I believe they have been accurate in predicting how teams would perform but I would think the Wiz will be an outlier this season so no stat is perfect but it has been good in predicting the Knicks win loss record the past several seasons.

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I posted it about and hour ago and no reply to it and I know exactly why. Tagged about 10 accounts. It's hilarious how quiet they are on this front

I actually hope people are starting to get the point to not get doped/liquored up by stats, especially advance stats. The Blogs, Elias Sports, Sabermetricians, DraftKing era has IMO corrupted the way people view sports and why they watch. It's taken so much out of the pure aspect, of what being a fan is supposed to be about, away.

I'm trying to reverse course to help change this type of thinking and get back to eye test matching it with quality review and meaningful discussions. I'm not saying don't ever use stats, they are very much needed but use them correctly and judiciously.

I was debating with Stefan Bondy today(probably irritated him) nevertheless it dawned on me when looking at numbers...did Knick fans know every player on this team has started except Ron Baker and had he still been around I believe he would've. That's crazy and people are writing think pieces on what could be the cause of our current record trying to single out players and excuse others...:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:

Broadway said:

I posted it about and hour ago and no reply to it and I know exactly why. Tagged about 10 accounts. It's hilarious how quiet they are on this front

I actually hope people are starting to get the point to not get doped/liquored up by stats, especially advance stats. The Blogs, Elias Sports, Sabermetricians, DraftKing era has IMO corrupted the way people view sports and why they watch. It's taken so much out of the pure aspect, of what bing a fan is supposed to be about, away.

I'm trying to reverse course to help change this type of thinking and get back to eye test matching it with quality review and meaningful discussions. I'm not saying don't ever use stats, they are very much needed but use them correctly and judiciously.

I was debating with Stefan Bondy today(probably irritated him) nevertheless it dawned on me when looking at numbers...did Knick fans know every player on this team has started except Ron Baker and had he still been around I believe he would've. That's crazy and people are writing think pieces on what could be the cause of our current record trying to single out players and excuse others...:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:

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With the Knicks you may have a point as far as eye test, I guess you're going to argue THJ is not as good as his RPM albeit he has a negative one but it is one of the better ones on the team and Nits, Zo and Knox are better than their numbers.

I'm surprised about Knox's numbers because he just won the rook of the month so you would think he would have improved from his early season numbers but don't think they have. I'd like to hear from your sources about the trend of KKs numbers over the course of the season and the explanation of why his RPM hasn't improved when he had a sensational month of DEC. Knox doesn't worry me because he seems to have a foundation he can grow from, a body that looks like he can get stronger and athleticism. Nits I don't know until he can string a few games together, nothing stands out about him even his D though he's conscientious about his D. Zo even if he doesn't develop into a rotation player, you haven't lost much as an undrafted player.

tiger0330 said:

Here's the current real +/- ESPN numbers for the Knicks players. Nits , Zo and Knox with abysmal real RPM stats, currently ranked 471, 472 and 473 respectively out of 475 NBA players in real RPM. I did read a comment that the Knicks hoped that Nits and Knox stats were not a a true indication of their abilities but Triers poor showing is new. BTW, the best real RPM player is Harden, the worst is Sexton of the Cavs.


New York Knicks

PLAYER	ORPM	DRPM	RPM	WINS	PREDICT
Tim Hardaway Jr.	1.46	-2.37	-0.91	1.80	1.13
Noah Vonleh	0.23	2.24	2.47	3.96	0.99
Mitchell Robinson	-1.18	1.15	-0.03	0.95	-0.06
Luke Kornet	-0.45	0.73	0.28	0.54	-0.77
Enes Kanter	-0.31	-1.26	-1.57	1.08	-1.09
Courtney Lee	-1.07	-0.03	-1.10	0.19	-1.73
Trey Burke	0.13	-1.72	-1.59	0.54	-1.85
Damyean Dotson	-1.10	-1.08	-2.18	0.48	-2.15
Mario Hezonja	-2.78	-0.10	-2.88	0.10	-3.13
Frank Ntilikina	-3.29	-2.30	-5.59	-1.18	-3.50
Emmanuel Mudiay	0.38	-1.35	-0.97	1.25	-3.60
Lance Thomas	-2.57	1.38	-1.19	0.30	-3.72
Allonzo Trier	-2.34	-2.96	-5.30	-1.03	-5.15
Kevin Knox	-2.24	-3.78	-6.02	-1.69	-5.69
Sorted by predictive RPM

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The only Knick players receiving consistent minutes, where the ratings above speak clarity of their performance are 3 Knick players .. Timmy, Mudiay, and Knox.
The rest of the Knick players has been receiving spot-minute playing-time (2 to 4 minute a quarter), plus DNP for several games, it's hard to rate their +/- performance when they are never on the court long enough to warm up with the teammates in the line-up or to the opponents lineup.
When a Knick player receive 8 to 19 minute of playing time from Fizdale in a game, game after game .. receiving under 5 minute of playing-time each quarter. Com'on! That is not a sign of "Developing Young-core players !!!
Thats TANKING !!!

I?ve backed off on advanced metrics.

Honestly, I?m not sure what to say other than that. I still try to watch every game, but this year?s team has really been hard for me to get behind. Much more than past seasons. Advanced metrics or not, only player who I am still 100% behind is Mitchell Robinson. Dude is the real deal. With improved health and experience, he is going to be a winner.

htr10 said:

I?ve backed off on advanced metrics.

Honestly, I?m not sure what to say other than that. I still try to watch every game, but this year?s team has really been hard for me to get behind. Much more than past seasons. Advanced metrics or not, only player who I am still 100% behind is Mitchell Robinson. Dude is the real deal. With improved health and experience, he is going to be a winner.

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The only thing stopping Robinson are his health and poor decisions in regards to fouling excessively.

Imagine him with KP on defense?


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htr10 said:

I?ve backed off on advanced metrics.

Honestly, I?m not sure what to say other than that. I still try to watch every game, but this year?s team has really been hard for me to get behind. Much more than past seasons. Advanced metrics or not, only player who I am still 100% behind is Mitchell Robinson. Dude is the real deal. With improved health and experience, he is going to be a winner.

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I too, has backed off of using the metric rating for reason of Fizdale many ways on how to Tank the season.
There has been NO development in Fizdale's tactics of coaching the Knicks in the first half of the season.
Rookie MitchRob happen to be my best 2018 Knicks draft pick.
And I dont like how Fizdale has been coaching & substituting MitchRob in the rotation, plus never tandem MitchRob & Kornet in a lineup alongside a 3 guard offense, so Kornet could learn to switch from being a stretch-5 to a stretch-4 in a lineup, and MitchRob could learn to switch from the 5 spot to the 4 spot in a lineup.

The game in London became a FIZDALE's suspect as a head-coach in the final 3 seconds of the game when the Wizards called a time-out having the ball while the Knicks were up by one point in the game with 3.3 seconds left in the game .. why didn't Fizdale have the Knicks best defensive center (MitchRob), and the Knicks best defensive PG (Frank), along with Dotson & Vonleh & Kornet on the defensive-end of the court for STOPS in those final seconds of the game ???
Fizdale has showed consistently throughout the season he has no winning strategy on offense or defense on how to teach young-core players how to win games !!!

Kiyaman said:

I too, has backed off of using the metric rating for reason of Fizdale many ways on how to Tank the season.
There has been NO development in Fizdale's tactics of coaching the Knicks in the first half of the season.
Rookie MitchRob happen to be my best 2018 Knicks draft pick.
And I dont like how Fizdale has been coaching & substituting MitchRob in the rotation, plus never tandem MitchRob & Kornet in a lineup alongside a 3 guard offense, so Kornet could learn to switch from being a stretch-5 to a stretch-4 in a lineup, and MitchRob could learn to switch from the 5 spot to the 4 spot in a lineup.

The game in London became a FIZDALE's suspect as a head-coach in the final 3 seconds of the game when the Wizards called a time-out having the ball while the Knicks were up by one point in the game with 3.3 seconds left in the game .. why didn't Fizdale have the Knicks best defensive center (MitchRob), and the Knicks best defensive PG (Frank), along with Dotson & Vonleh & Kornet on the defensive-end of the court for STOPS in those final seconds of the game ???
Fizdale has showed consistently throughout the season he has no winning strategy on offense or defense on how to teach young-core players how to win games !!!

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Mentioned this in the game thread. Fiz is well liked by his young guys because he gives them playing time they don't deserve but a coach that is trying to win games and not popularity contests like Carlisle of the Mavs would had his best defensive team in there. Not much of a tactical coach from what I've seen so far, I hope him and his staff are better teachers.

tiger0330 said:

Mentioned this in the game thread. Fiz is well liked by his young guys because he gives them playing time they don't deserve but a coach that is trying to win games and not popularity contests like Carlisle of the Mavs would had his best defensive team in there. Not much of a tactical coach from what I've seen so far, I hope him and his staff are better teachers.

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Coach Carlisle put together Detroit Piston Championship starting lineup, plus won a championship with no-defense Dirk.
I wouldn't say Fizdale is liked by all the young players, maybe ball-hog Timmy, and low B.ball IQ Mudiay.
I'm sure Burke and Frank put Horn's way of coaching above Fizdale's no strategic offense/defense system.
How well has rookie Knox been coming along on the offensive-end of the court in Fizdale's development?
Has Knox learn to distribute the ball to teammates?
Does Knox move without the ball to create screens for ball-movement?
How many design plays have Knick fans seen the 4 PG Mudiay/Frank/Burke/Zo perform in a half of season? NONE!
How many pick n roll or give n go design plays has anyone seen rookie Iso-Zo run throughout the first half of the season? NONE!
Trier's pick n roll and give n go performance with Knox & MitchRob in the SLG got Trier the invitation to Training-Camp.
MitchRob's B.Ball IQ as a NBA athletic Bigman has a very high potential in his raw performance for not playing in a league last season (That's the reason, I were hoping/mentioning we should hired Bosh or Rasheed Wallace to our coaching-staff for this Knick developing-season.).
Kornet should have been in the rotation at the start of the season tandem to MitchRob in a lineup, the two could've been learning each other weakness/strength performing together in a lineup to create on both sides of the court in the many 34 losses in a half a season. Remember if both Kornet & MitchRob are here next year than both will have to know how to switch-position 4 +5 in lineup with KP.