Payton can?t shoot worth a damn but he?s an upgrade at the position over Mudiay, better defender, better passer, should have better ball movement with him. We overpaid him at 8M/yr but that was the price to get him on a 1 yr deal with a team option for his second. I think Fiz gives Payton the nod over DSJ as the starter for his D and passing, DSJ best chance is to exploit Paytons shooting weakness and become the knock down shooter EP isn?t if he wants the starting PG spot.
The Knicks Process: Where do we go from here?
- Thread starter jimkcchief88
- Start date
mafra
Legend
The Knicks haven't had a single first-round pick get a multiyear second contract with the franchise since Charlie Ward, who was drafted 25 years ago.
This fact suggests we should?ve taken back contracts for picks... but getting young assets (lottery prospects) and 3 vets (to help shape mentality) isn?t a bad idea either.
This fact suggests we should?ve taken back contracts for picks... but getting young assets (lottery prospects) and 3 vets (to help shape mentality) isn?t a bad idea either.
mafra
Legend
The newest Knick, Bobby Portis, has become a health-food fanatic and workout demon. He has a stake in a healthy-snack company and is known for his 12-hour workouts in June and July in the Los Angeles suburbs when many NBA players are taking it easy.
That is why, during Dwyane Wade?s miscast 2016-17 season in Chicago, the 6-foot-11 Bulls power forward got his hackles up when the Miami legend famously called out the young Bulls to the press for not working hard enough after a loss. The next day, a team meeting was staged, with Wade explaining his comments to his teammates. According to an NBA source, as Wade talked, Portis stared him down.
?Wade finally says, ?What?s up, Bobby???? the NBA source said. ?Bobby laid into him, saying, ?You might be a better player, but don?t ever challenge my work ethic.? He accused Wade of not working hard enough by not practicing.??
The fire in Portis? belly is one reason the Knicks on Sunday lavished a whopping one-year, $15 million deal on Portis with a second year as a team option. That came despite Portis being a backup through much of his rookie contract.
?Bobby is truly the hardest-worker type,?? the source said. ?Not just that he says it. That?s why he got frustrated and snapped at Wade.??
?Actually Bobby?s usually a fun guy and that fight was an aberration,? the source said. ?It was more Mirotic trying to show he was a tough guy in the locker room. Portis was told that day by someone the Bulls were going to make Mirotic the starter even though Bobby was beating him out. They wanted to showcase Mirotic. It was regretful. Players were a lot closer to Bobby.?
?He couldn?t shoot at all when he came to the team and has developed a nice shot,?? the source said. ?But it?s a black hole. He rarely passes.??
Most scouts see a backup player or marginal starter. Portis, whose goal is to be an NBA scout after retirement and who has a stake in a stat analytical firm, has come off the bench in 200 of his 249 games. Julius Randle, also signed by the Knicks on Sunday, is slated to start at power forward with second-year man Mitchell Robinson at center.
Knicks coach David Fizdale, who is close with Wade, is said to love Portis? passion.
That is why, during Dwyane Wade?s miscast 2016-17 season in Chicago, the 6-foot-11 Bulls power forward got his hackles up when the Miami legend famously called out the young Bulls to the press for not working hard enough after a loss. The next day, a team meeting was staged, with Wade explaining his comments to his teammates. According to an NBA source, as Wade talked, Portis stared him down.
?Wade finally says, ?What?s up, Bobby???? the NBA source said. ?Bobby laid into him, saying, ?You might be a better player, but don?t ever challenge my work ethic.? He accused Wade of not working hard enough by not practicing.??
The fire in Portis? belly is one reason the Knicks on Sunday lavished a whopping one-year, $15 million deal on Portis with a second year as a team option. That came despite Portis being a backup through much of his rookie contract.
?Bobby is truly the hardest-worker type,?? the source said. ?Not just that he says it. That?s why he got frustrated and snapped at Wade.??
?Actually Bobby?s usually a fun guy and that fight was an aberration,? the source said. ?It was more Mirotic trying to show he was a tough guy in the locker room. Portis was told that day by someone the Bulls were going to make Mirotic the starter even though Bobby was beating him out. They wanted to showcase Mirotic. It was regretful. Players were a lot closer to Bobby.?
?He couldn?t shoot at all when he came to the team and has developed a nice shot,?? the source said. ?But it?s a black hole. He rarely passes.??
Most scouts see a backup player or marginal starter. Portis, whose goal is to be an NBA scout after retirement and who has a stake in a stat analytical firm, has come off the bench in 200 of his 249 games. Julius Randle, also signed by the Knicks on Sunday, is slated to start at power forward with second-year man Mitchell Robinson at center.
Knicks coach David Fizdale, who is close with Wade, is said to love Portis? passion.
jimkcchief88
All Star
Portis is very athletic I think SEC player of the year(I double checked SEC player of the year 2015). Bulls stole him late in the 1st round, but never really gave him a real chance. That was part of the beef between Portis and Mirotic. Then I guess Mirotic tried to punk Bobby on top of that and the rest is history. So Bobby is tough for sure no nonsense and is a surprisingly good 3 point shooter. So goes the life of us long suffering Knicks fans. It?s like that old SNL skit:?lowered expectations?
SSj4Wingzero
All Star
You know what I like about Bullock, Gibson, Ellington, and Portis, and Randle?
All of them are players whose NBA careers took some time to develop.
Bullock - traded twice, sent down to the D League, and it wasn't until his 3rd year in Detroit that Stan Van Gundy was able to mentor him into a starting-caliber PG
Gibson - For years he was a non-factor on offense and then he finally improved his free throw shooting so now he's not as easily exposed
Ellington - rode the bench in Minnesota for years, kept working on his shot, finally got more touches once he was traded
Randle - his PPG has gone up every year and so has his shooting percentages
Portis - RPG, PPG, 3-Point % have gone up every single year
We might not win a lot of games next season but we brought in a bunch of players who have shown that they're committed to working on their games and improving themselves as players. That's exactly the type of people you want around a really young team like the Knicks have. If we're worried about Knox and Frank and DSJ developing as players to take their game to the next level, who better to have on the team than a bunch of guys who didn't come into the league as great players and had to work for it?
All of them are players whose NBA careers took some time to develop.
Bullock - traded twice, sent down to the D League, and it wasn't until his 3rd year in Detroit that Stan Van Gundy was able to mentor him into a starting-caliber PG
Gibson - For years he was a non-factor on offense and then he finally improved his free throw shooting so now he's not as easily exposed
Ellington - rode the bench in Minnesota for years, kept working on his shot, finally got more touches once he was traded
Randle - his PPG has gone up every year and so has his shooting percentages
Portis - RPG, PPG, 3-Point % have gone up every single year
We might not win a lot of games next season but we brought in a bunch of players who have shown that they're committed to working on their games and improving themselves as players. That's exactly the type of people you want around a really young team like the Knicks have. If we're worried about Knox and Frank and DSJ developing as players to take their game to the next level, who better to have on the team than a bunch of guys who didn't come into the league as great players and had to work for it?
You didn’t mention Payton?
SSj4Wingzero
All Star
Eh he was a lottery pick who got started as a rookie and he hasn't really improved that much from his rookie season to now so not really the same thing
mafra
Legend
Payton's presence also may impact Frank Ntilikina. The Knicks talked to at least one team about a trade involving Ntilikina and the return of an early second-round pick. They also discussed deals around the return of a late first-round pick. Some teams considering Ntilikina were wary of making the trade before the draft because his salary ($5 million) would impact their cap space in free agency and they couldn't be sure of what they were getting in Ntilikina, who has dealt with injuries and inconsistent performances/minutes allotment in New York.
It is unclear if the Knicks will continue to try to move Ntilikina.
It is unclear if the Knicks will continue to try to move Ntilikina.
Well I guess you think he sucks and will backup DSJ. I think he starts.
mafra
Legend
Ian Begley, SNY.tv | Twitter |
Kawhi Leonard signing with the Clippers makes it official: the Knicks have missed out on all of their top targets in free agency. But the biggest free agent they landed, Julius Randle, believes that fans will grow to appreciate the 2019-2020 team.
"We've got dogs. We've got dudes who don't back down, who have killer mentalities. And that's what we need," Randle said on Friday night. "Getting back to the old school. Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, all of those guys. Toughness. A fight breaking every night. So, we're excited about that. That's our identity of our team, not backing down from nobody."
Randle offered his thoughts on several topics in a chat with reporters in Las Vegas:
On why he chose the Knicks in free agency: "I had a lot of options. I just felt like this opportunity was the greatest opportunity. I felt like there's no fan base and organization is starving and hungry to win more than the Knicks in the NBA. And I don't think there's a better place in the NBA to win than with the Knicks and New York. So, for me, it was a no-brainer. And like I said, every day I wake up, I pinch myself because I'm excited."
On the Knicks' pitch to him in free agency: "Just how they wanted to use me. Me being the leader on this team, the lead guy, and the young core that we already have. Me and (coach David Fizdale), we really thought alike. He said one of the things when he took this job was there's no better place to win, in New York. He said this is the best place in the NBA to win and I felt the same way. And I felt the same thing. When he asked me what I wanted out of this I said the exact same thing. So, we thought alike. And the opportunity for myself as a player too, I'm excited about it. We've got a lot of good guys on this team. I can go down the list of all the guys I'm excited to play with, the young guys. I've been in this situation, a couple years ago that is very similar to what they're in, just trying to establish themselves in the league. But I like what I see out there and those guys are playing great, they're playing together and I'm excited."
On the idea that some Knicks fans are disappointed about not landing Kevin Durant, Leonard or Kyrie Irving: "I understand it. I'm not going to take it any way. That fan base is starving to be competitive every night. For guys who are going to compete every night to win. So, for me, it's that. That's what it is. I'm going to work my butt off to get to that point."
Randle signed a three-year, $63 million deal with the Knicks. The contract has a team option in the third year. He's the biggest free agent signee for New York in a 2019 class that includes Reggie Bullock, Wayne Ellington, Elfrid Payton, Bobby Portis and Taj Gibson. All players outside of Randle are on two-year contracts with a team option in the second season.
So the club did not commit long-term money to any free agent this summer, maintaining future cap flexibility. (But based on their new players' recent track record, it's hard to see this Knicks team defending well.)
The best-case scenario for the Knicks is this: their young players (RJ Barrett, Kevin Knox, Mitchell Robinson, Allonzo Trier) continue to grow and develop, making the club more attractive to future stars. And maybe some of the players they sign, like Randle, play well enough to be added to that young core moving forward.
The perfect timeline for the Knicks? Putting together a title contender once the star-studded teams in Los Angeles and Brooklyn break up. And yes, Russell Westbrook may become available via trade in the wake of Oklahoma City's Paul George trade. It's unclear if the Knicks would be interested, but trading for Westbrook would be a questionable move without a second (or third) bona fide star coming with him.
We also know that Anthony Davis plans to test free agency next summer. If things don't go well in Los Angeles, it's logical to think the Knicks could be on his radar. Davis was open to re-signing with the Knicks if they'd traded for him this offseason, per sources.
Kawhi Leonard signing with the Clippers makes it official: the Knicks have missed out on all of their top targets in free agency. But the biggest free agent they landed, Julius Randle, believes that fans will grow to appreciate the 2019-2020 team.
"We've got dogs. We've got dudes who don't back down, who have killer mentalities. And that's what we need," Randle said on Friday night. "Getting back to the old school. Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, all of those guys. Toughness. A fight breaking every night. So, we're excited about that. That's our identity of our team, not backing down from nobody."
Randle offered his thoughts on several topics in a chat with reporters in Las Vegas:
On why he chose the Knicks in free agency: "I had a lot of options. I just felt like this opportunity was the greatest opportunity. I felt like there's no fan base and organization is starving and hungry to win more than the Knicks in the NBA. And I don't think there's a better place in the NBA to win than with the Knicks and New York. So, for me, it was a no-brainer. And like I said, every day I wake up, I pinch myself because I'm excited."
On the Knicks' pitch to him in free agency: "Just how they wanted to use me. Me being the leader on this team, the lead guy, and the young core that we already have. Me and (coach David Fizdale), we really thought alike. He said one of the things when he took this job was there's no better place to win, in New York. He said this is the best place in the NBA to win and I felt the same way. And I felt the same thing. When he asked me what I wanted out of this I said the exact same thing. So, we thought alike. And the opportunity for myself as a player too, I'm excited about it. We've got a lot of good guys on this team. I can go down the list of all the guys I'm excited to play with, the young guys. I've been in this situation, a couple years ago that is very similar to what they're in, just trying to establish themselves in the league. But I like what I see out there and those guys are playing great, they're playing together and I'm excited."
On the idea that some Knicks fans are disappointed about not landing Kevin Durant, Leonard or Kyrie Irving: "I understand it. I'm not going to take it any way. That fan base is starving to be competitive every night. For guys who are going to compete every night to win. So, for me, it's that. That's what it is. I'm going to work my butt off to get to that point."
Randle signed a three-year, $63 million deal with the Knicks. The contract has a team option in the third year. He's the biggest free agent signee for New York in a 2019 class that includes Reggie Bullock, Wayne Ellington, Elfrid Payton, Bobby Portis and Taj Gibson. All players outside of Randle are on two-year contracts with a team option in the second season.
So the club did not commit long-term money to any free agent this summer, maintaining future cap flexibility. (But based on their new players' recent track record, it's hard to see this Knicks team defending well.)
The best-case scenario for the Knicks is this: their young players (RJ Barrett, Kevin Knox, Mitchell Robinson, Allonzo Trier) continue to grow and develop, making the club more attractive to future stars. And maybe some of the players they sign, like Randle, play well enough to be added to that young core moving forward.
The perfect timeline for the Knicks? Putting together a title contender once the star-studded teams in Los Angeles and Brooklyn break up. And yes, Russell Westbrook may become available via trade in the wake of Oklahoma City's Paul George trade. It's unclear if the Knicks would be interested, but trading for Westbrook would be a questionable move without a second (or third) bona fide star coming with him.
We also know that Anthony Davis plans to test free agency next summer. If things don't go well in Los Angeles, it's logical to think the Knicks could be on his radar. Davis was open to re-signing with the Knicks if they'd traded for him this offseason, per sources.
jimkcchief88
All Star
jimkcchief88
All Star
Translations:
Julius Randle on why he chose the NY Knicks:?Nobody else wanted me and was dumb enough to offer me 60 million dollars.?
NY Knicks on their pitch to Julius Randle:?Nobody else worth a **** wants to come here. Do you want 60 million dollars to come play here with NO EXPECTATIONS of winning??
I was wondering why we hadn?t heard much from Fizdale this off-season and it seems the Knicks brass put a muzzle on him according to this quote.
?They?re holding me hostage,? Fizdale said, when asked why he has been mum.
Really didn?t like him and his wife predicting great things for the Knicks last season before FA played out. This isn?t an AS team the Knicks spent their $$ on but it?s a deep team that over 48 minutes should compete so Fizdale has enough to win some games. Perry said he wants to win because ?institutionalized losing? isn?t good for a team, the honeymoon is over for Fiz so he better come out of training camp with a set rotation, improved play from our young players, defense, a style of play that fits. Tired of all this losing, keep Fizdale on short leash and expect him to produce otherwise cut your losses and replace him if we?re on track to a 20 win season again.
?They?re holding me hostage,? Fizdale said, when asked why he has been mum.
Really didn?t like him and his wife predicting great things for the Knicks last season before FA played out. This isn?t an AS team the Knicks spent their $$ on but it?s a deep team that over 48 minutes should compete so Fizdale has enough to win some games. Perry said he wants to win because ?institutionalized losing? isn?t good for a team, the honeymoon is over for Fiz so he better come out of training camp with a set rotation, improved play from our young players, defense, a style of play that fits. Tired of all this losing, keep Fizdale on short leash and expect him to produce otherwise cut your losses and replace him if we?re on track to a 20 win season again.
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Why? Why? Why didn't the Knicks try to trade for Chris Paul big contract on draft night when the Rockets were ready to give CP3 up for a couple of future first round picks? Especially, when the Knicks knew they weren't gonna sign a injured KD.
The Knicks getting CP3 in a trade would've had starter center DJ resign asap, giving the Knicks two strong leadership all-star players on July 1st.
What did the Knicks front office do in the offseason to enhance the growth of their young-core players?
Well, the Knicks front-office did nothing to be able to stop the 3 top winning teams (76ers, Raptors, Nets) in the Atlantic Division.
The Knicks new Starter lineup consist of:
PG- Elfrid Payton
SG- Wayne Ellington
SF- Frank Ntilikina
PF- Marcus Morris
C- Julius Randle
2nd Unit:
PG- Dennis Smith Jr.
SG- Reggie Bullock
SF- RJ Barrett
PF- Bobby Portis
C- Mitchell Robinson
3rd Unit:
PG- Kadeem
SG-Dotson/Trier
SF- Knox
PF-Taj Gibson
C- Noah Vonleh
The Knicks getting CP3 in a trade would've had starter center DJ resign asap, giving the Knicks two strong leadership all-star players on July 1st.
What did the Knicks front office do in the offseason to enhance the growth of their young-core players?
Well, the Knicks front-office did nothing to be able to stop the 3 top winning teams (76ers, Raptors, Nets) in the Atlantic Division.
The Knicks new Starter lineup consist of:
PG- Elfrid Payton
SG- Wayne Ellington
SF- Frank Ntilikina
PF- Marcus Morris
C- Julius Randle
2nd Unit:
PG- Dennis Smith Jr.
SG- Reggie Bullock
SF- RJ Barrett
PF- Bobby Portis
C- Mitchell Robinson
3rd Unit:
PG- Kadeem
SG-Dotson/Trier
SF- Knox
PF-Taj Gibson
C- Noah Vonleh
I actually believe ....
None of the 2019 off-season Star FA, or star FA role-players believe Iso-system David Fizdale will ever become a winning head-coach in the NBA.
mafra
Legend
Some betting site has 27.5 as NYK over/under for 2019 win total.
I have a question, since NY was ragged on for ?tanking? last season...
Aren?t the same folk now praising Presti and OKC? Aren?t they, in essence, tanking? They didn?t have to trade PG or RW. Now they?ll tank next 3 years.
I have a question, since NY was ragged on for ?tanking? last season...
Aren?t the same folk now praising Presti and OKC? Aren?t they, in essence, tanking? They didn?t have to trade PG or RW. Now they?ll tank next 3 years.
28 wins and most likely the worst team in a very strong Atlantic division. There never has been a team that finished last in a division that made the playoffs. Maybe we can beat a Nets team without KD.
Yeah .. it's not gonna look good for the Knicks at the end of next season when they couldn't get one win against any team in the Atlantic Division.
But then again, I think the Nets would be a better and much stronger team if they kept Russell over Kyrie.
mafra
Legend
Emmanuel Mudiay has faith in the Knicks.
The 22-year-old guard may no longer be on the team, agreeing to a one-year deal with the Utah Jazz this summer, but Mudiay believes New York should be excited about some of the pieces the organization has, starting with head coach David Fizdale.
"This year wasn't the year to judge him for his work, but he's taken teams to the playoffs before," he told Kristian Winfield of the New York Daily News. "So I think it's only a matter of time. If they keep putting the right people around him, then he'll flourish."
Mudiay was certainly able to flourish under Fizdale. After a disappointing three years in Denver, which led to him getting traded to New York during the 2017-18 season, the point guard resurrected his career last season with Knicks.
While the team went a franchise-worst 17-65, Mudiay averaged a career-high 14.8 points per game and shot career-highs of 44.6 percent from the field and 32.9 percent from beyond the arc.
The Knicks would love to see a jump in production in second-year forward Kevin Knox, and Mudiay is confident he can deliver.
"Just kept telling him to stay confident, don't get too low on yourself," Mudiay said. "With him, it's been learning the speed of the game, but every rookie goes through it. ... You're going to have your ups and downs, and you just have to stay steady."
Knox averaged 13 points per game and shot 37 percent from the field and a mere 34.3 percent from 3-point range.
"The man still averaged 13 points," Mudiay said. "He's a natural scorer. I think this year he'll take a little jump to get a little more comfortable."
Mudiay saved his highest praise for Mitchell Robinson, though.
The 21-year-old was a defensive force as a rookie last season, averaging 2.4 blocks per game and earning Second Team All-Rookie honors. The center continued to show his potential these past few weeks, being named to First Team Summer League.
"The sky's the limit for that boy," Mudiay said. "I see about two or three Defensive Player of the Year awards for him over the course of his career."
The 22-year-old guard may no longer be on the team, agreeing to a one-year deal with the Utah Jazz this summer, but Mudiay believes New York should be excited about some of the pieces the organization has, starting with head coach David Fizdale.
"This year wasn't the year to judge him for his work, but he's taken teams to the playoffs before," he told Kristian Winfield of the New York Daily News. "So I think it's only a matter of time. If they keep putting the right people around him, then he'll flourish."
Mudiay was certainly able to flourish under Fizdale. After a disappointing three years in Denver, which led to him getting traded to New York during the 2017-18 season, the point guard resurrected his career last season with Knicks.
While the team went a franchise-worst 17-65, Mudiay averaged a career-high 14.8 points per game and shot career-highs of 44.6 percent from the field and 32.9 percent from beyond the arc.
The Knicks would love to see a jump in production in second-year forward Kevin Knox, and Mudiay is confident he can deliver.
"Just kept telling him to stay confident, don't get too low on yourself," Mudiay said. "With him, it's been learning the speed of the game, but every rookie goes through it. ... You're going to have your ups and downs, and you just have to stay steady."
Knox averaged 13 points per game and shot 37 percent from the field and a mere 34.3 percent from 3-point range.
"The man still averaged 13 points," Mudiay said. "He's a natural scorer. I think this year he'll take a little jump to get a little more comfortable."
Mudiay saved his highest praise for Mitchell Robinson, though.
The 21-year-old was a defensive force as a rookie last season, averaging 2.4 blocks per game and earning Second Team All-Rookie honors. The center continued to show his potential these past few weeks, being named to First Team Summer League.
"The sky's the limit for that boy," Mudiay said. "I see about two or three Defensive Player of the Year awards for him over the course of his career."