Explaining Evolution And Why GOD is NOT LIKELY

So then, what Paul1355 was saying is incorrect. There is no hell. And the images of hell those people saw (fiery and hot) on their deathbeds were created in their heads. Which supports my theory. Thanks Knicks4life you helped my argument.

So, essentially I'm good to go. Thanks. I'll continue living my life the way I have.

Hell technically exists, but it's not a fiery place of torment like most believe.
But you're not really good to go as you say. There is a prospect of being alive forever, vs dead forever that everyone still faces. You basically saying you're good to go, ignoring God is what can possibly be your permanent death (meaning no resurrection and possible life forever) Why would you want to be dead forever, when you can live forever?
 

LJ4ptplay

Starter
I'D REALLY LIKE YOU TO DISCUSS THE FOSSIL RECORD POST IN THE RELIGIOUS THREAD ON THE LAST PAGE I PUT UP. I cannot understand how you have not once addressed it, yet say I should believe in evolution based on it.

I take your opinion seriously on this matter because it appears you have done extensive research on this. So please let me know what you think of that write up in that section.

I will. I haven't been back to that thread in a while. I promise I will read it and get back to you. Right now though, I must sign off for a while. My parents are coming into town to visit me. Give me a week or so and I will read it thoroughly and respond with my impressions.

Overall, I have enjoyed these discussions. It has forced me to dig up information. Knowledge is power my friend.
 

LJ4ptplay

Starter
Hell technically exists, but it's not a fiery place of torment like most believe.
But you're not really good to go as you say. There is a prospect of being alive forever, vs dead forever that everyone still faces. You basically saying you're good to go, ignoring God is what can possibly be your permanent death (meaning no resurrection and possible life forever) Why would you want to be dead forever, when you can live forever?

It doesn't bother me either way. Cheers.
 
I will. I haven't been back to that thread in a while. I promise I will read it and get back to you. Right now though, I must sign off for a while. My parents are coming into town to visit me. Give me a week or so and I will read it thoroughly and respond with my impressions.

Overall, I have enjoyed these discussions. It has forced me to dig up information. Knowledge is power my friend.

And that is a fact! Knowledge is power! We agree :)

Looking forward to seeing what you think on that. It's on the last page and it's the last post, so it will be easy to check. Lata
 

TunerAddict

Starter
I thought of something today thinking about this thread.

Lyfe, you make great arguement when you can post those prophecies and show their correlation to the history. Great proof, right?

Wrong.

I'm not saying that the Bible is wrong on these occurences. I'm supporting your notion that the book was indeed right.

However, while these are evidence to the fact that the Bible has truth to it, they in no way serve as proof to any other parts to the bible. Alexander conquering some land as prophesied has NOTHING to do with Jesus being the son of God or any such thing. Because there are correct things in the Bible does not mean the book as a whole is infallible.
 
You're Right!

I thought of something today thinking about this thread.

Lyfe, you make great arguement when you can post those prophecies and show their correlation to the history. Great proof, right?

Wrong.

I'm not saying that the Bible is wrong on these occurences. I'm supporting your notion that the book was indeed right.

However, while these are evidence to the fact that the Bible has truth to it, they in no way serve as proof to any other parts to the bible. Alexander conquering some land as prophesied has NOTHING to do with Jesus being the son of God or any such thing. Because there are correct things in the Bible does not mean the book as a whole is infallible.

Just because the book is right about one thing does not make it infallible. But if the bible can be right about something as intricate as the details to a world rulers life and demise and aftermath, would you not tend to at least give an ear to other things to see if in fact it is correct on other accounts?

There are many things prophesied about in the bible concerning Jesus. He fulfilled all the things concerning those as well. I mean, even the Pharasees and Saducees who had the Hebrew scribes could not argue against the things Jesus did during his life.

All I have ever said my whole time during any of these threads is that one would need to just have an open mind to be taught the true meaning of the bible to have a chance of understanding it. IF YOU DON'T DO THAT YOU NEVER WILL BECAUSE IT WILL ALL APPEAR TO BE A FAIRY TALE.

It is easiest to get people who do not believe to look at the Bible in a different light if you can make them understand some of the truths in it. Like Prophecy and scientific facts that hold up even today. For instance, it seems minute when you think of it, but the bible stating the earth is a sphere that hangs on nothing begs to ask a simple question... How would those guys know this for sure? I told my brother once that the bible had such things and he did not believe me. That is because most people are not being properly taught to understand the bible, so most scoff. And who could blame them with the way most bible based religions go about their business of teaching?

Take LJ4PTPLAY for instance. All his life he was made to understand that God puts people in an eternal torture chamber for sinning and ignoring his wishes, for what, a max 70-80 years of human life? AND THAT EVEN DEPENDS IF YOU HAD THE CHANCE OF KNOWING THE TRUTH! What if you were living somewhere where the bible was not prevalent? You were doomed, no way out. But God loves you!

See from that angle, I can TOTALLY understand why people lack faith! Look at what is being taught! But you know who hates it the most? Jehovah himself. In fact, he blames false religion more than anything else to why mankind is in the state that it's in. That is why, very soon he is going to put into the hearts of the leaders of the world to abandon all forms of false religion. If you pay close attention... You could actually see it unfolding now. Mega Churches are losing their luster. Some forms of government are already outlawing certain religious groups. People in general basically ignore religion. Even people who claim to have a religious background!

But I rambled on a bit. Sorry. I get what you're saying about the bible not being infallible, but because of all the prophecies that I understand about, along with historical, scientific and the basic laws and principles found in it, It leads me to believe that a higher source had to be hind this book. There is no way, 40 different writers from a span of over 1500 years of written human history could have been this harmonious and accurate. And most of them have never met each other..
 

KnicksFan4Realz

Benchwarmer
Let's talk about this bible for a moment some are unfortunately behind enough to say is accurate. When it comes to the issue of prophecy it's far to convenient to say well someone wrote something 2000 years ago, and THEN WHEN its re-interpreted to FIT today's context call it a true propechy. Prophecies must be specific.

Edgar Cayce would be a better example to use if you were going to use one. He was specific he gave specific names, dates, years, months, places..etc. He didn't plop down and just say generic things or in some kind of poetic prose code, like much of the Bible uses and people do till this day. Nostradamus wrote thousands of prophecies...how come no church is worshipping him today? How come his writings are not reveared as insight into the eyes of GOD..after all if you believe his works to be truth?

The bible is a collection composing of 62 books not including the Apocrypha. Such a document can't ever be the inspired word of a GOD. For example, Nehemiah, calls for the preservation of racial purity by the prohibition of inter-racial marriages, while Ruth has for its heroine a Moabite woman who married a Jew. As another example, the book of Proverbs extols living the good life which it says is God's reward for righteous living while Ecclesiastes says life is meaningless and prosperity is accidental.

The New Testament stands in an uneasy contrast with the Old. The Old Testament says that the Jews are the chosen people of God. This God may sometimes abandon them as a punishment for their unfaithfulness but the severance was always only temporary. Yet in the New Testament we are shown that the Jews are completely severed from God and are in fact responsible for the murder of his Son.

The Bible is nothing more than a collection of stories crammed in from other cultures, that were given a glossier coating of BS. None of the ideas in it are original, they come from ancient Persia...as well influenced by Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians.

The books of the Bible are books of testimony. Unlike treatises on mathematics and logic, where the correctness of the argument can be inferred from the written sources themselves, testimonials invariable involve a person or persons telling you something actually happened. Thus the integrity of the person giving the testimonial is of utmost importance. For that integrity is what makes us trust what he or she says. The Bible makes testimonies about things that are, by any reckoning, out of the ordinary.

There are testimonials about the appearances of God to some of his prophets, about tremendous miracles such as the parting of the Red Sea and even about a man walking on water! Surely on such incredible testimonies, the integrity of the person telling the stories must be scrutinized very very closely.

Remember the old maxim: extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

As a corollary to that, we should demand that the incredible stories demand impeccable integrity on behalf of the storyteller to be believed.

The first step towards examining the integrity of a person is, of course, to know his or her identity. It is therefore not surprising that Jewish and Christian traditions ascribed the authorships of the books in the Old Testaments to well known Jewish kings and prophets: the very characters mentioned in the Bible. To Moses, certainly the most important figure in Judaism, was attributed the authorship of the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

In a similar trend, Joshua, Moses' successor, was supposed to have penned the book that has his name as the title. Other important figures in Jewish history, such as David and Solomon, also have books attributed to them.

There is a similar trend in the New Testament. Most books in the New Testament had their authorship attributed to the disciples of Jesus, or at least their immediate followers. For examples the two letters of Peter were supposed to have been written by the apostle himself, while the gospel of Mark was presumed to have been written by one of Peter's followers.

These attribution of authorship were accepted, almost without question, by Christians for close to two millennia. In the 19th century, with the use of the methods critical historical research to the books of the Bible, these traditional beliefs were slowly but relentlessly eroded. The research has reached a point where almost all the books in the Bible are no longer held to be written by the people tradition thought them to be.

This valid discovery, however, is very rarely communicated to the lay public. When it is conveyed at all, it is normally preceded with attempt on behalf of the scholars to cushion the "blow" on the reader. As a result, to this day most lay Christians and (of course) all fundamentalists hold firm to these traditional attribution of authorship.

Just gonna use Genesis as an example....

For many centuries, both Christian and Jewish theologians believe that the stories were given by God and thus owed their origins purely to divine inspiration. However in the nineteenth century, British archaeologists unearthed seven tablets containing the Babylonian myth of creation known as Enuma Elish.

Like the famous Epic of Gilgamesh, archaeologists have assigned the date of composition of this work to around 2000 BC. Although the story differs in specifics to that told in Genesis, the similarities in the general tone has convinced archaeologists that the Genesis account had been fundamentally derived from the Babylonian one. Some of the similarities include:

The reference to the initial state as being a disordered chaos of water.

Genesis 1:1 refers to the ?darkness? upon the face of the deep. In the Babylonian myth, in the beginning there was only Apsu, the sweet water ocean and Tiamat, the salt water ocean. In fact, archaeologists have generally acknowledged that the Hebrew word for the chaos of the waters or ?the deep?, tehom, is actually derived from the Akkadian Tiamat.

The creation of a firmament to separate the waters above from the waters below.

In Genesis 1:6-8 God is said to have created the firmament on the second day of creation. In the Babylonian myth, Marduk, son of the Ea the god of wisdom, killed Tiamat and split her into two. The upper half of Tiamat was fixed onto the sky to keep the waters above in place.

The sequence of successive acts of creation.

In the Babylonian myth, after Tiamat was killed, the firmament was created by Marduk to separate the waters above from below. Then he created the sun, the moon, the planets and the stars. Finally man was created. This order is very closely paralleled in Genesis I where the firmament was created on the second day, the sun, moon and stars on the third day and man on the sixth day.

It thus cannot be denied that the creation myth from Genesis must have been derived from the Babylonian one.

To quote the late Professor S.H. Hooke (1874-1968) an expert on Old Testament Studies:

"In spite of the complete transformation of the Babylonian material effected by the priestly writer, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the original form of the creation story upon which he is depending is ultimately of Babylonian origin".
 

KnicksFan4Realz

Benchwarmer
The Sumerian paradise is called Dilmun. (It should be noted, however that Eden (edinu) was also originally a Sumerian word, meaning ?plain? or ?steppe?.) Dilmun was a divine garden where sickness and death do not exist. We will now follow Hooke?s paraphrasing of the Sumerian paradise myth;

According to Sumerian myth the only thing Dilmun lacked was fresh water; the god Enki (or Ea) ordered Utu, the sun-god, to bring up fresh water from the earth to water the garden.

In the myth of Enki and Ninhursag it is related that the mother-goddess Ninhursag caused eight plants to grow in the garden of the gods. Enki desired to eat these plants and sent his messenger Isimud to fetch them. Enki ate them one by one, and Ninhursag in her rage pronounced the curse of death upon Enki.

As the result of the curse eight of Enki?s bodily organs were attacked by disease and he was at the pain of death. The great gods were in dismay and Enlil [the chief god] was powerless to help. Ninhursag was induced to return and deal with the situation. She created eight goddesses of healing who proceeded to heal each of the diseased parts of Enki?s body. One of these parts was the god?s rib, and the goddess who was created to deal with the rib was named Ninti, which means ?lady of the rib?.

The similarity between the above myth and that of Genesis? is obvious to see. The similarity include:

* The setting- a garden in paradise.
* The watering of the gardens with water from the earth.
* The consumption of forbidden fruits, by Adam and Eve in Genesis and by the god Enki in the Sumerian myth.
* The curse upon the person (s) who ate the fruit.
* The creating of a female from the rib of the male in Genesis and the creating of a female to heal the rib of the male in the Sumerian precursor.
* The name of the female thus created. In Genesis, Eve, or in its original semitic form Hawah, means life. In the Sumerian myth, the word ti from the name Ninti has a double meaning; it could mean either ?rib? or ?life?. Thus Ninti can be rendered as ?lady of the rib? or ?lady of life?.

That is not all, the Babylonian myth, the Epic of Gilgamesh also contains an episode that doubtless also influenced the writers of Genesis. In it Gilgamesh, in his quest for immortality, was told by Utnapishtim (the Babylonian ?Noah?) that there exists a plant at the bottom of the sea that has the property of making the old young again.

Gilgamesh dived into the sea and brought up the plant. However the plant was stolen while he was taking bath. The thief who stole the plant of everlasting youth away from him was none other than the serpent!

That Babylonian myths should influence the stories in the Bible is really not surprising. The Babylonian empires were influential throughout the whole middle eastern region for over three thousand years. The history of Jews is also very closely tied to Babylon. For it was there that the Jews were taken into exile in the year 587 BC.
 

Paul1355

All Star
I believe that after I die...I'm dead. Nothing. I rot in the ground like every other creature. I believe we are no different than any other living thing on the planet. Do you believe that dogs, monkeys, fish, insects go to heaven? Probably not. Why would they? There is no heaven for these creatures. But you believe humans are special, where I believe we are all part of the ecological process.

I have also met people that have come close to death and one person who actually died twice! He was in a car accident one time and he was struck by lightning the other time. Both times he was pronounced dead, but did not see anything. No beautiful light, no hot firey place, nothing. I bet you though, all those people your dad treated were raised in a christian society. Athiest or not, in this society we are pounded with the message of heaven and hell. And you're right, some people may doubt their atheism at their death bed and may believe they saw the bible's version of heaven or hell. I don't doubt that. The mind can do crazy things, especially at a time of near death. When people have near-death experiences in other cultures, they see their versions of "heaven" too.

Why do you worship a being that punishes you for not worshipping him? Is fear the main reason you worship him? Fear of burning in hell? I would hope an all-powerful being would be more understanding. I've been a good person my whole life. I've treated others with respect, helped those in need, and plan on dedicating my life to protecting the environment. But if I go to hell because I don't worship him, then that is a truly sad, egotistical, self righteous being.

I do believe that creautres that God made go to heaven if he created it, then it must go to his domain. If there is a God then we shoudl fear him becuase he rules all and in return you will have everlasting happiness. If you were God and a group of people didnt believe in you and spoke down on you and influenced others to not believe in you, would u let him have the same result as the peolpe that do believe in you and do influence others to believe in you? If he let everybody go to heaven then there wouldnt be a point in worshipping him becuase everyone would go to heaven. It's not fear of God it's fear of Hell. If you ever watch a movie a person is powerful either through fear or love, the God i believe in is a god of forgiveness and love. Even though, you should fear him or else you will spend eternity in Hell. Now in my belief, every person will have a choice to belive in him when you die u will see him and he will ask you "do you still believe in me?" being what u said before saying if u see him you'll believe i believe u have a decent shot. But some people who have been evil their whole life might not get that chance and will be in Hell in a split second, and even from Hell, God can save you. He is a god of forgiveness and you wil get a 2nd chance but if u refuse him again then you wil be lost forever. In the Bible there is only two choices...God or no God and NO GOD results in HELL, period. There is no in between but if you have refused God countless times when he was there for you then he will bring that up and if you do go to Hell dont be surprised. All God wants you to do is ask for forgiveness and believe in him from there you dont have to do anything to get into heaven. The differene between my belief and every other in the world is that Christianity is not a work-based religion. Meaning you dont have to buy your way or work your way into heaven, interesting. Just ask for forgiveness and believe in him and your good. Now in heaven theres another story becuase he says your works on earth will refelct who you are in heaven meaning the more people you save and the more you do for the Lord the happier you'll be in heaven and the more treasures etc you will get. So i hope i answered you question. Some people will never believe and there is always a consequence. Even the coldest of murders get saved so if they can do it you surely can. Look at the Son of Sam remember him? He is now preaching the Bible in prison. many people that were lost in every category still got saved and many that killed many people sitll got saved. conluding this, you will have a chance when you die but if you refuse him your whole lfie it will be harder to get into heaven. So there is alwways hope so he isnt a God of what you think he is. He can forgive you only if you ask for his forgiveness and mercy ad believe in him. He gave us free will for a reason. So that he wouldnt force people to believe in him.
 

Paul1355

All Star
So then, what Paul1355 was saying is incorrect. There is no hell. And the images of hell those people saw (fiery and hot) on their deathbeds were created in their heads. Which supports my theory. Thanks Knicks4life you helped my argument.

So, essentially I'm good to go. Thanks. I'll continue living my life the way I have.


I have said in other posts that we came from the earth so i wasnt wrong there. And if a christian says we dont go to heaven then he obviously has over looked much of the Bible, then he doesnt know what he is talking about.
 
And if a christian says we dont go to heaven then he obviously has over looked much of the Bible, then he doesnt know what he is talking about.

This is clearly where we'd disagree, because I read the bible THOROUGHLY, and there is way too much ample evidence to go against all people who worship in God going to heaven. There is a select few chosen however to rule as Kings with Jesus over the 12 tribes of Israel during Judgement day, or the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Jesus spoke of it some here in Luke 22:28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

If those who go to Heaven with Jesus will be Kings along with him to judge Tribes of Israel, who is the tribes? Kings have subjects to rule over. But if everyone goes to heaven, there would effectively be no one to rule over, as all the bad people are in hell supposedly.


But a simple way to rationally look at it is this way.

God told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree, they would postively die. Now what God did not say was even more important, as a person with discernment would clearly see that if Adam and Eve would have never eaten from the tree, they would postively what? LIVE!!!

God did not set an ending to Adam and Eve's lives unless they ate from the tree. So logic has it, had they never eaten, they would have lived forever. Plus, all of God's purposes for Adam and Eve had to do with the earth.

Gen 1:27 And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

Be fruitful-translation, make babies, enough to fill and even subue the entire EARTH. Notice, earth not HEAVEN. And all animals will be in subjection to humans, and where do animals live? Earth.


So nowhere in the plan for the first parents was heaven in view for them. God also says whatever he utters must come forth. here look.

Isaiah 55:11 so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.

That implies that whatever God's purpose is he fulfills it. It appears that he purposed for mankind to live on the earth, and nowhere else. In fact, here is another...

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.

It appears that Jehovah created the earth to be inhabited. Gosh darnit, there are people on earth! Even animals! Heck organisms we have not even discovered yet! It appears he purposes life to inhabit the earth!

This begs a serious question then. If all the Good people go to heaven, and all the bad people to hell, who or what then inhabits the earth? Could one argue if what I just mentioned happens, God is a liar since he said he did not create the earth for nothing?

How would one who who hopes in heaven rationally explain why the Psalmist said in 37:29 the righteous themselves will inherit the earth, and reside forever upon it? Would not all righteous people expect a heavenly reward instead?
 
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Giving worship to a GOD one must fear. Love cannot come out of fear.


That is not true. You can have Godly fear which is not fear in agitation or danger. Look.

from answers.com
fear


  1. A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
  2. A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.
  3. A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.
  4. Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power.
This is a healthy fear, a loving fear.
 

Paul1355

All Star
This is clearly where we'd disagree, because I read the bible THOROUGHLY, and there is way too much ample evidence to go against all people who worship in God going to heaven. There is a select few chosen however to rule as Kings with Jesus over the 12 tribes of Israel during Judgement day, or the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Jesus spoke of it some here in Luke 22:28 ?However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

If those who go to Heaven with Jesus will be Kings along with him to judge Tribes of Israel, who is the tribes? Kings have subjects to rule over. But if everyone goes to heaven, there would effectively be no one to rule over, as all the bad people are in hell supposedly.


But a simple way to rationally look at it is this way.

God told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree, they would postively die. Now what God did not say was even more important, as a person with discernment would clearly see that if Adam and Eve would have never eaten from the tree, they would postively what? LIVE!!!

God did not set an ending to Adam and Eve's lives unless they ate from the tree. So logic has it, had they never eaten, they would have lived forever. Plus, all of God's purposes for Adam and Eve had to do with the earth.

Gen 1:27 And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God?s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: ?Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.?

Be fruitful-translation, make babies, enough to fill and even subue the entire EARTH. Notice, earth not HEAVEN. And all animals will be in subjection to humans, and where do animals live? Earth.


So nowhere in the plan for the first parents was heaven in view for them. God also says whatever he utters must come forth. here look.

Isaiah 55:11 so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.

That implies that whatever God's purpose is he fulfills it. It appears that he purposed for mankind to live on the earth, and nowhere else. In fact, here is another...

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: ?I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.

It appears that Jehovah created the earth to be inhabited. Gosh darnit, there are people on earth! Even animals! Heck organisms we have not even discovered yet! It appears he purposes life to inhabit the earth!

This begs a serious question then. If all the Good people go to heaven, and all the bad people to hell, who or what then inhabits the earth? Could one argue if what I just mentioned happens, God is a liar since he said he did not create the earth for nothing?

How would one who who hopes in heaven rationally explain why the Psalmist said in 37:29 the righteous themselves will inherit the earth, and reside forever upon it? Would not all righteous people expect a heavenly reward instead?

God knew what would happen every event from the time you were born, he knew every step you'd walk every thing u would say becuase he created u. ANd your last statement talks about the New Israel after God destroys the Universe and Earth and makes a new one. We will be able to move from heaven to earth whenver we want to but the people that are saved after the rapture will only be able to stay on Earth, making the benefit for God's people for whoever beleived him before the rapture. i know being able to move from heaven to earth whenever you want sounds crazy, but if all the Bible said happened with the Trbulation and the Anti CHrist, the beast, Armageddon if that all happened and i believe will happen in the future, then something like that will surely happen.
 
God knew what would happen every event from the time you were born, he knew every step you'd walk every thing u would say becuase he created u.
While I agree that God has the ability to see into the future concerning us, I disagree that he always uses that ability. Clearly he would have to use it at times or there could be no accurate prophecy. But it appears you're saying God made flawed creations. If he Knew Satan would be Satan, why make him? Clearly he does not always fast forward.


ANd your last statement talks about the New Israel after God destroys the Universe and Earth and makes a new one.
And why would God destroy the earth? What did the planet earth do to hinder God's plans that he must destroy not only the earth, but also the Universe?

But I always like to consult the scriptures. After God flooded the earth he once made this promise.

Gen 8: 20 And Noah began to build an altar to Jehovah and to take some of all the clean beasts and of all the clean flying creatures and to offer burnt offerings upon the altar. 21 And Jehovah began to smell a restful odor, and so Jehovah said in his heart: ?Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man?s account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done.22 For all the days the earth continues, seed sowing and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, will never cease.?

Now I don't know about you, but if God destroys the earth, he would certainly appear to be going against his own heart according to that scripture. And he said this after the deluge. How much more damage would be done if he destroyed the Universe? And why would he destroy the Universe on Man's account? What purpose would that serve logically?
So logically, when it says "For all the days the earth continues" that would have to mean the earth will be here forever, because before sin, that seemed to be his plan anyways.

But other scriptures that help.

Psalms 119:90 Your faithfulness is for generation after generation.
You have solidly fixed the earth, that it may keep standing.

Ecc 1: 4 A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite.

Isa 45:18 For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who
formed it even to be inhabited: ?I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.

None of these can apply logically to a NEW EARTH in the sense you mean, because it does not say NEW EARTH for one, and also because it speaks of an earth that is already in existence, not one forthcoming.

However, the bible does speak of a new Heavens and a new earth. But I will just try and clear up the New Earth part. If it is God's plan to have the righteous inherit the earth as he says it is in pslams 37:29, would he not have to rid the earth of WICKEDNESS in order for that to take place? If God rid the earth of wicked people, and only righteous people lived here, could that be constituted as a NEW EARTH in a way? If God fixes all the wrongs ecological wrongs with the world, renews the ozone and such, could it be said that the earth is RENEWED? If you take an older model car, and renew every nuke and cranny from the body to the smallest screw, would your car be considered NEW?

I ask all of that because it appears God plans to do that very same thing concerning the earth.
Psalm 37:
10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

That sounds like God is evicting certain unruly tenants, but allowing others to stay. And if that's the case, the earth will SURELY be new! There will be abundant peace! THAT'S VERY NEW!


We will be able to move from heaven to earth whenver we want.
What scripture eludes to such?

to but the people that are saved after the rapture will only be able to stay on Earth, making the benefit for God's people for whoever beleived him before the rapture.
Jesus said the rewards are the same for all who put faith in him. Life. Somehow, you seem to be adding benefits to a certain group. Show me where it says that only some will be able to go from heaven to earth. And does the word RAPTURE appear in any bible? Ever?
i know being able to move from heaven to earth whenever you want sounds crazy.
Nah, not crazy to me the devil was able to do it for centuries.
Job 1:6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.
7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: ?Where do you come from?? At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: ?From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.? So it is possible for angels to go from heaven to earth.

but if all the Bible said happened with the Trbulation and the Anti CHrist, the beast, Armageddon if that all happened and i believe will happen in the future, then something like that will surely happen.

Jesus said to his disciples that if the tribulation was not cut short, no FLESH would be saved. (MAT 24:22) So it appears that God plans to cut the days short of the tribulation for the sake of saving FLESH. Why if he plans to just destroy the earth and bring all the holy ones to heaven anyways? Be the point in saving any flesh?

The Anti Christ is all around you. What do you think the beast is? And when does armegeddon happen?
 

Paul1355

All Star
While I agree that God has the ability to see into the future concerning us, I disagree that he always uses that ability. Clearly he would have to use it at times or there could be no accurate prophecy. But it appears you're saying God made flawed creations. If he Knew Satan would be Satan, why make him? Clearly he does not always fast forward.



And why would God destroy the earth? What did the planet earth do to hinder God's plans that he must destroy not only the earth, but also the Universe?

But I always like to consult the scriptures. After God flooded the earth he once made this promise.

Gen 8: 20 And Noah began to build an altar to Jehovah and to take some of all the clean beasts and of all the clean flying creatures and to offer burnt offerings upon the altar. 21 And Jehovah began to smell a restful odor, and so Jehovah said in his heart: “Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man’s account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done.22 For all the days the earth continues, seed sowing and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, will never cease.”

Now I don't know about you, but if God destroys the earth, he would certainly appear to be going against his own heart according to that scripture. And he said this after the deluge. How much more damage would be done if he destroyed the Universe? And why would he destroy the Universe on Man's account? What purpose would that serve logically?
So logically, when it says "For all the days the earth continues" that would have to mean the earth will be here forever, because before sin, that seemed to be his plan anyways.

But other scriptures that help.

Psalms 119:90 Your faithfulness is for generation after generation.
You have solidly fixed the earth, that it may keep standing.

Ecc 1: 4 A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite.

Isa 45:18 For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who
formed it even to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.

None of these can apply logically to a NEW EARTH in the sense you mean, because it does not say NEW EARTH for one, and also because it speaks of an earth that is already in existence, not one forthcoming.

However, the bible does speak of a new Heavens and a new earth. But I will just try and clear up the New Earth part. If it is God's plan to have the righteous inherit the earth as he says it is in pslams 37:29, would he not have to rid the earth of WICKEDNESS in order for that to take place? If God rid the earth of wicked people, and only righteous people lived here, could that be constituted as a NEW EARTH in a way? If God fixes all the wrongs ecological wrongs with the world, renews the ozone and such, could it be said that the earth is RENEWED? If you take an older model car, and renew every nuke and cranny from the body to the smallest screw, would your car be considered NEW?

I ask all of that because it appears God plans to do that very same thing concerning the earth.
Psalm 37:
10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

That sounds like God is evicting certain unruly tenants, but allowing others to stay. And if that's the case, the earth will SURELY be new! There will be abundant peace! THAT'S VERY NEW!


What scripture eludes to such?

Jesus said the rewards are the same for all who put faith in him. Life. Somehow, you seem to be adding benefits to a certain group. Show me where it says that only some will be able to go from heaven to earth. And does the word RAPTURE appear in any bible? Ever? Nah, not crazy to me the devil was able to do it for centuries.
Job 1:6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.
7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” So it is possible for angels to go from heaven to earth.



Jesus said to his disciples that if the tribulation was not cut short, no FLESH would be saved. (MAT 24:22) So it appears that God plans to cut the days short of the tribulation for the sake of saving FLESH. Why if he plans to just destroy the earth and bring all the holy ones to heaven anyways? Be the point in saving any flesh?

The Anti Christ is all around you. What do you think the beast is? And when does armegeddon happen?

I'll answer each argument.

First argument...Lets first discuss the destruction of the old earth and universe to make a new one.

Isiah 65:17 "I create new heavens and a new earth and the form of things that shall not be remebered or come to mind."
Isiah 66:22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before me," declares the Lord.

Peter sums it up quite nicely...you'll read that in a second.
The purpose of this to happen (the destruction) is because evil will be so bad that he will have to come and when he arrives on the Mount of Olive in Israel, the mountain will split and from that point the entire earth and heaven will be cleansed of evil and sin and as the Bible says an evil and adultrous world. A world of sin.
Let's see destory and destruction: 2nd Peter 3:7 "But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgement, and destruction of ungodly men"
In 2nd Peter chapter 3 verse 10; "But the day of the Lord will come like a theaf, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the Earth and it's works will be burned up.

Also in 2nd Peter, FYI, he answers your entire argument Knick4lyfe.

After verse 10, 2nd Peter 3:11-13 says "Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives." 12 then says "as you look forward to the day of God and speed it's coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in heat." Then 13 says: "But keeping with his promise we are lookin forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness."

When he says "Heavens" its plural which is the Universe and it's Galaxies.


2nd argument...I meant that access to both heaven and earth "sounds crazy" to an un-believer since i was talking to an unbeliever in the argument. Because an un-believer would look at that statement as nonsense or "crazy."

3rd argument...the word RAPTURE not in the Bible...the event is still mentioned and will happen.

This arguement was answered by doctors/scholars, H.L Willmington, Valvoord and Dwight Penticost when the same question was asked to them in a letter one day. They said "In answering this letter I agreed that he was indeed correct, inasmuch as the word rapture is nowhere to be found among the 774,747 words in the King James Version of the Bible. But I then pointed out that neither are the words Trinity, demon, Bible, or grandfather mentioned in that version of the Word of God. But there is a Trinity, there are demons, grandfathers do exist, and the rapture is a reality! Actually the word rapture is from rapere, found in the expression "caught up" in the Latin translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. However, if on so desires, the rapture could be scripturally referred to as the harpazo, which is the Greek word translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:1. The identical phrase found in Acts 8:39, where Phillip was caught away by the Holy Spirit, and in 2 Corinthians 12:2,4, when Paul was caught up into the third heaven. Or, if you'd rather, the rapture could be known as the allasso, from the Greek translated "changed" in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52. Allasso is also used in describing the final renewal and transofrmation of the heavens and the earth(see Hebrews 1:12). So then, use whatever name suits your fancy. Ofcourse, the important thing is not what you name it, but rather, can you claim it? That is, will you participate in it? Thus, the next scheduled event predicted in the Bible will take place when the Savior himself appears in the air to catch up His own!"

4th argument...there is a reward system...not everyone will have the same rewards.....

since my computer was freezing i will send this part now and i will continue this with another post.
 
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pat

Starter
A)
B)The universe had a beggining so therefore it had a cause
C)The only two possibilities are that there is NO beggining or there is a beggining.

That argument of course only works if you assume that that we indeed live in a universe. As soon as you believe in a multiverse theory in witch universes come into existence like bubbles in a foam bath and vanish similarly, infinity becomes a valid physical and philosophical option. Cause becomes an obsolete concept. The multitude of possible option makes the junk yard argument fit like the piece of a puzzle: In numerous other -- almost parallel -- universes the evolution could have, but did not -- take place. It al boils down to likelihood and pure chance. Quantum mechanics is more than one hundred years old and indeterminacy and pure chance have become valid categories in physics by now. On a quantum level, processes take place that seem to be completely unrestricted by any laws of physics. These processes on a micro level might produce -- on a macro level -- a multitude of outcomes in a infinite universe, which allows for evolution despite its relative unlikelihood.
 

Paul1355

All Star
Before i get to the 4th argument, you tried to prove me wrong by saying that logically Isiah never talks about a NEW EARTH. Sir dont stop your reading because in the start of the last post, i mentioned in Isiah chapters 65 and 66 he said that there will be a new Heaven and Earth so to use Isiah against my argument is very unwise. Isiah 45:18, which you mentioned talks about Earth as of this one as it is and as we know it now, in Isiah's time. He then later talks about the future becuase Isiah is a prophetic prophet, in chapters 65 and 66 as i metnioned just read what i wrote you in my last post you'll understand.

Also the first thing you argued to me about, the very first thing, when you said that I'm appearing to say that God made "flawed creations". I said that God knew every thing would happen from DAY ONE you said you disagree because of his "flawed creations". You mentioned Satan as an example?....GOD GAVE LUCIFER FREE WILL. Lucifer wanted to be like god, Ezekial 28:13 and forward....and Isiah 14:12 and forward, discuss Lucifer. God made Lucifer the highest angel, the most beautiful angel, made Lucifer second to God. BUT Lucifer HAD PRIDE which created his downfall.

I am amazed that you can put God in a box.

To show God's fore knowledge, Romans 8:28-31 explains it, just read it. It is the doctrine of fore knowledge and pre-destination. The Bible said it and I believe it.

On to the 4th argument...the reward system...not everyone gets the same rewards.

The Bible is clear that the believers works, since salavation(not his sins), will be judged at the judgement seat of Christ. Which is refered to many times in the Bible; its mainly mentioned in Second Cornthians 5:10. Every member will have to go before the Bemacy for the purpose of examining each person and giving the proper reward to each. That means that me and you might not have the same reward.
Look at 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 it shows that there is a reward system and what i mentioned before, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Example of the different rewards: There are different crowns which is the incurruptable crown, the crown of rejoicing, the crown of life, crown of righteousness, crown of glory, and many more which you can gain. Also rewards can be taken away which is in, 1 Corinthians 3:15, which i mentioend before.

Another argument...You also mentioned the cutting short of the Tribulation. I will answer your quesion.
you asked :"Why if he plans to just destroy the earth and bring all the holy ones to heaven anyways? Be the point in saving any flesh?" MY ANSWER: Becuase it is God's purpose to rescue Israel. Revelation is the revealing of Jesus as the Messiah to the Jew.

Your other question about who the Beast is and when Armageddon is. MY ANSWER: About Armageddon... The tribulation period is 7 years long and will commense after the rapture. The first 3 1/2 years will be a false peace that the Anti-Christ will make with Israel. During this false peace many or most of the nations surrounding Israel will look to destroy Israel. The Anti-Christ will then come to rescue Israel at the 3 1/2 period of the Tribulation, the half way point. And will proclaim himself as God, the so-called, Abomination of Desolation. And Israel will know they have been betrayed by a false treaty. Then proceeds 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation which is manifested by immense horror, destruction and death such as no man has ever seen. This will eventually lead to the armies of Satan, Anti-Christ, and the False Prophet that will gather in Megeddo with the armies from all nations to be gathering against Israel. Then Jesus will come on a white horse and appear with his army. The armies of heaven will follow Jesus also riding on white horses. Out of the mouth of Jesus came a sharp sword which he will defeat all the nations.
The Beasts are many but the one i refered to is the mark of the Beast 666 which will be Satan in the form of a human just like Jesus, this shows that Satan tries to be like God..refer to the Isiah 14, how Satan always tries to be like Jesus.

What you have done on Earth will pass, only what you have done for Jesus will last.
 
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Paul1355

All Star
That argument of course only works if you assume that that we indeed live in a universe. As soon as you believe in a multiverse theory in witch universes come into existence like bubbles in a foam bath and vanish similarly, infinity becomes a valid physical and philosophical option. Cause becomes an obsolete concept. The multitude of possible option makes the junk yard argument fit like the piece of a puzzle: In numerous other -- almost parallel -- universes the evolution could have, but did not -- take place. It al boils down to likelihood and pure chance. Quantum mechanics is more than one hundred years old and indeterminacy and pure chance have become valid categories in physics by now. On a quantum level, processes take place that seem to be completely unrestricted by any laws of physics. These processes on a micro level might produce -- on a macro level -- a multitude of outcomes in a infinite universe, which allows for evolution despite its relative unlikelihood.

Pat, read the rest of what I said. Dont take something out of context and try to prove it wrong. I stated something, than i gave my explanation.
 
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