Duhon = bad? No suprise here

KBlack25

Starter
The first time I saw him do that I was laughing and said it must have slipped but then I saw him do it at least three more times and that's when the words 'bum' and 'bench' come out of my mouth.
Not to mention the recent barrage of turnovers...7,6, 5, 7. Are you kidding me? I don't give a shit how tired you are or if you are injured. If you are that damn tired or injured that you start the game turning the ball over 4 consecutive times to the point that your damn team can't even get a shot up, you need to sit your bum ass down and tell coach i'm too tired or injured for this shit and I don't want to jeopardize my team right now b/c if I start off that bad it usually trickles down to the rest of my teammates. I GUARANTEE that if it was Marbury playing the way Duwho is playing right now, they'd want to hang him.

Agreed, which goes back to my point that Marbury would have made $21 million and Duhon makes the MLE. If we got what we are getting out of Duhon for $21 million, or really anything other than the mid-level exception, of course NY would be calling for his head on a post. But, since we didn't, and got him for C-Level money, his C-Level play is at least understandable, if not expected.
 

metrocard

Legend
This is a first, me and metro finally agreeing. Duhon and Lee's Numbers both are inflated due to Mike D, BOth of those players can get lost, teh only players who really earn their stats on this team are Harrington, Chandler, Gallo and nate, 4 guys who can create their own shots, and dont depend on a play being run for them to get to the basket.

Duhon and Lee depend on eachother, when duhon is in the game he over doses on that stupid pick and roll that got scouted out by every nba team 2 months ago. But duhon knows nothing else, he has no athleticism to get to the rim at will, he cant cross players over, and he has no mid range game what so ever. dudes dropping almost as many turnovers as assists since the all star break while nate is coming off the bench to be the 5th leading scorer in the league. and did any one notice

last two games, Lopez, and Okafor both shitted on lees head all game long.

BYE BYE LEE.

Nah.

Lee produced the same type of numbers from previous seasons, nothing much has changed except his ppg.
Lee would average 16 ppg even with you on PPG. This is what happens when you drop Curry/Crawford.

Lopez/Okafor > Lee.

Doesn't make Lee terrible because two very good young big men are better than him(well at defense)

amilion, nice.
 
Nah.

Lee produced the same type of numbers from previous seasons, nothing much has changed except his ppg.
Lee would average 16 ppg even with you on PPG. This is what happens when you drop Curry/Crawford.

Lopez/Okafor > Lee.

Doesn't make Lee terrible because two very good young big men are better than him(well at defense)

amilion, nice.


AGAINNNN i THINK i HAVE DEFENDED MY WORDS 100 TIMES ON THIS SITE LOL, i NEVER EVER SAID LEE IS TERRIBLE. i JUST SAID LEE IS NOT A PREMIER STARTING PF. COULD YOU IMAGINE THE NUMBERS A PREMIER PF WOULD PUT UP FOR MIKE D..OOO WAIT...AMARE 25 10 3 AND 2 . YEP. PREMEIR SAME AGE. LEE IS NOT THAT AND NEVER WILL BE, PEOPLE FORGET HE WILL BE 27 NEXT YEAR. TWENTTTTY SEVENNN, HE DOESNT HAVE THAT MANY MORE YEARS THE WAY HE BANGS HIS BODY AROUND TO IMPROVE ON THIS SEASON, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE WILL EITHER BE TRADED TO ANOTHER TEAM WITH MORE TALENT AROUND HIM WHERE HIS ROLE PLAYER ABILITIES WILL BE PUT TO THE FOREFRONT, OR THE KNICKS WILL HAVE MORE TALENT AROUND HIM AND SAME DIFFERENCE, LETS JUST HOPE WE DONT ALLEN HOUSTON HIS CONTRACT...I THINK WE ALL REMEMBER THE LAST TIME A PLAYER PUT UP BIG NUMBERS ON A LOSING TEAM HOW BADLY THAT SCREWED US, BACK TO DUHON. ONE SENTENCE EXPLAINS IT ALL

WE NOW KNOW WHY FOR THE FIRST FOUR SEASONS OF HIS CAREER HE WAS A BACK UP PG.

WITH THAT BEING SAID, HE IS 26 AND THIS IS ALMOST LIKE HIS ROOKIE YEAR AT BEING A STARTING PG, PLAYING THESE MINUTES, AND RUNNING AN OFFENSE ON HIS OWN, SO HE CAN GO ONE OF TWO WAYS, STAY WHERE HE IS NOW, OR ACTUALLY IMPROVE WITH MORE EXPERIENCE. GOOD THINK DONNIE WALSH IS A GENUIS

2 YR CONTRACT.

UNTIL THEN.,
 

Paul1355

All Star
Chris Duhon- 38 minutes per game...the guy is being over used, cut his minutes by about five and give them to Nate the great.

Duhon has been an A this year...he's worth a mid level exception and has exceeded all odds and speculation against him. If he had a better shooting team, he'd have over 9 to 10 assists a game. The Knicks are one of the worst shooting teams in basketball people, that hurts Duhon's numbers as a PG if his passes dont go down as assists when they should.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Chris Duhon- 38 minutes per game...the guy is being over used, cut his minutes by about five and give them to Nate the great.

Duhon has been an A this year...he's worth a mid level exception and has exceeded all odds and speculation against him. If he had a better shooting team, he'd have over 9 to 10 assists a game. The Knicks are one of the worst shooting teams in basketball people, that hurts Duhon's numbers as a PG if his passes dont go down as assists when they should.

They've already cut Duhon's minutes, he's only played 32/game in March. The only reason it's 38 mpg on the year is because he played 40 mpg in October and November.
 

KING~POETIQ

The One and Only
You are getting too hung up on who starts and who comes off the bench. Whoever starts doesn't matter, it's who gets the minutes. In the last 10 games Duhon and Nate have had equal time on the floor, on the season Duhon only gets 8 more minutes per night than Nate. This includes games where Duhon played almost all 48 and got over 20 assists.

Don't hang yourselves up on who starts and who comes off the bench. Just look at who plays in critical minutes. That's what counts.

Actually who starts does matter. We would be more aggresive early on if we had nate pushing the ball instead of duhon. We wouldn't be trailing with teams that are on our level (bobcats, nets, etc.) Duhon makes our offense more stagnant, especially by the second half of the game.


Kblack, I am well aware of duhon's 20+ assist game, but do you have to keep on mentioning it? If it was done on a consistent basis then it would be a valid argument, but its not because it won't happen again. Eddy Curry has a better chance of becoming MVP of the league than duhon having another 20+ assist game.
 

KING~POETIQ

The One and Only
I bring up the point because when Duhon was playing well, nobody was sitting here crying about him. The second things go a bit awry for a week or two, everyone jumps on him. They don't complain when he does well, they complain when he plays poorly.

Isn't that to be expected? The guy gets paid millions, right? If he plays below his skill level he should be criticized. He's suppose to play good in this league.



Its like that rant by Chris Rock "I take care of my kids". Ballers want praise for doing their job?! F*ck outta here!
 

jimkcchief88

All Star
I know what's going on here. Jamal is gone and E-city is on the bench so now the masses have to find another player to **** on. So tag Duhon is it. Are the turnovers acceptable. Heck no. But look at what he has been through this season. You go from being a back up for the Bulls averaging not even 20 minutes a game for a career to a starter. Then you run half the season with 7-8 man rotation while playing in D'antoni's 7 seconds or less system. Of course you are going to hit the wall down the stretch. Metro is right Augustine would have been perfect fit, but D'antoni drafted his buddies kid with the 6th pick who was not even physically ready to play NBA ball until halfway through the season. Not to mention "Starbury" flat out refused to play when offered to share the minutes. So that's it. As good as N8 is, its tough to start a 5'8" PG in the NBA. The bottom line is Duhon was brought in to hold down the spot until better options are availible in 2010 for cheap money. Not too often do you get a Rolls for a price of a Yugo.
 

metrocard

Legend
I know what's going on here. Jamal is gone and E-city is on the bench so now the masses have to find another player to **** on. So tag Duhon is it. Are the turnovers acceptable. Heck no. But look at what he has been through this season. You go from being a back up for the Bulls averaging not even 20 minutes a game for a career to a starter. Then you run half the season with 7-8 man rotation while playing in D'antoni's 7 seconds or less system. Of course you are going to hit the wall down the stretch. Metro is right Augustine would have been perfect fit, but D'antoni drafted his buddies kid with the 6th pick who was not even physically ready to play NBA ball until halfway through the season. Not to mention "Starbury" flat out refused to play when offered to share the minutes. So that's it. As good as N8 is, its tough to start a 5'8" PG in the NBA. The bottom line is Duhon was brought in to hold down the spot until better options are availible in 2010 for cheap money. Not too often do you get a Rolls for a price of a Yugo.

Marbury wasn't given a chance before he "refused to play"...you need to stop this bias nonsense and take your head out of your ass...seriously...every silly Marbury hater will continue to bring up he refused to play and totally ignore the fact he was never given a chance to be apart of this team from the beginning of preseason.

Its not tough to start a 5"9 PG, Nate plays like a 6"5 man...you need to stop playing into height as the determining factor...sometimes height doesn't matter with your abilities and the level of dynamic play you provide...Duhon is 6"2 and has a 9 inch vertical leap...Robinson plays bigger than him and is stronger than him also.
 

richtree

Rotation player
The thing is with Duhon your not gettnig a star -- alot of people overvalued him because of his assts per game stat --

the reason why people get mad quicker when duhon isn't playing well is because when you bring in a pass first, simple, run the team type player --- it is a easy task to accomplish.
All he has to do is play def, and not turn the ball over, and else is a bonus but his isn't doing anything right at this time....plus he looks tired, injured and lacking Mikey D's key word "energy"

I just hope D'antoni has the stones to sit him for long stretches and play nate at the point with Hughes
 

KBlack25

Starter
Actually who starts does matter. We would be more aggresive early on if we had nate pushing the ball instead of duhon. We wouldn't be trailing with teams that are on our level (bobcats, nets, etc.) Duhon makes our offense more stagnant, especially by the second half of the game.


Kblack, I am well aware of duhon's 20+ assist game, but do you have to keep on mentioning it? If it was done on a consistent basis then it would be a valid argument, but its not because it won't happen again. Eddy Curry has a better chance of becoming MVP of the league than duhon having another 20+ assist game.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true.

1) Duhon's chances of having another 20+ assist game are infinitely better than Eddy Curry's chances of becoming an MVP, don't be foolish.

2) You can't take the game of basketball in a vacuum. As I stated earlier, in the games Nate has started, and has received 10 more minutes per game, his stats only jumped up a marginal amount. Were Nate to start at PG, he would be running against fresh legs. Coming off the bench, he runs fresh against tired legs. There's a significant difference here. If the man guarding Nate has fresh legs, it takes away a lot of Nate's game. Basketball is unique in that, substituting one guy for another changes a whole lot more than just that one player on the court. It changes defensive and offensive schemes.

Baseball is a sport more suited toward your analysis. In baseball you can see what a team of 9 A-Rods would do merely based on average and stats. In basketball, a team of 5 Yao Mings just doesn't work, it might look like you'll score a lot of points, grab a lot of boards, but it just simply won't work out.

My point is, there are certain non-measurable facts that come with making changes like this to a starting lineup. You can't measure things like fatigue, you can't measure how well Nate is able to take advantage of a tired defense. I realize what the stats say, but the stats in basketball do not tell the whole story. A guy like Shane Battier puts up seemingly marginal numbers, but his impact on defense is something so immeasurable that you really have to sit and analyze game tape to understand it.

I am not criticizing Nate, I love his play (no homo). But there are certain intangibles, impossible to measure by mere statistical analysis that comes into play. I'm not on the floor with the Knicks, but neither are you. We don't know really what kind of leadership or energy or intelligence that Duhon brings to the other 4 guys on the floor. You are right, the offense does appear to run better when Nate is on the floor, but this is also because Nate's speed is amplified.

3) I understand what you are saying about ballers want praise for doing their job, but it's really simple. This team was a joke last year and the year before. They were literally the laughing stock of the league. Now, thanks in large part to Duhon's play early on, we are at least in consideration for a playoff berth. The guy helped this team, at least partially, rise above the level of a joke. Doesn't that deserve some kind of praise?

4) D'Antoni recently admitted that he has worn Duhon down. He admitted Duhon is playing tired, he just appears worn out. I realize this is an excuse, but it's similar to what Joe Torre did in his Yankee years, wearing down his bullpen to where in August the bullpen looked exhausted. At the same time, people criticized the members of the bullpen for playing poorly. D'Antoni has admitted fault here and has subsequently cut Duhon's minutes.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Marbury wasn't given a chance before he "refused to play"...you need to stop this bias nonsense and take your head out of your ass...seriously...every silly Marbury hater will continue to bring up he refused to play and totally ignore the fact he was never given a chance to be apart of this team from the beginning of preseason.

Its not tough to start a 5"9 PG, Nate plays like a 6"5 man...you need to stop playing into height as the determining factor...sometimes height doesn't matter with your abilities and the level of dynamic play you provide...Duhon is 6"2 and has a 9 inch vertical leap...Robinson plays bigger than him and is stronger than him also.

In fairness metro, maybe you should stop the bias toward Marbury. If you are going to criticize one man for his bias, you should take a look in the mirror and find your own.

Let's be honest son, you love guys like Francisco Garcia and Carlos Arroyo because of where they were born. I guarantee if Francisco Garcia was named Chet Ridgely and he was from Greenwich, CT, and was pale-white but with the same skills as Garcia, you'd be hating on him. You have bias just as much as the next man.
 

clumsy

Rotation player
Duhon is Rafer Alston without the ability to create. I personally wouldn't want Rafer to start on a team i was building. You guys will see in the playoffs what i am talking about (Rafer is a very mediocre pg despite his "Intangibles").

DO NOT GET CAUGHT UP IN THE HYPE KNICKS FANS just like you have with all these other players cuz they are knicks. Sports analyst have created things

Called the Eddy Curry Stat Line
http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/nba/news?slug=mb-bigpic_111507

and the Jamal Crawford Phenomenon
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090309

Don Nelson has already asked Jamal to opt out of his contract cuz he realizes how trash he is.
http://slamonline.com/online/nba/2009/03/don-nelsons-ultimatum-for-jamal-crawford/
 
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KING~POETIQ

The One and Only
I'm not sure that's necessarily true.

1) Duhon's chances of having another 20+ assist game are infinitely better than Eddy Curry's chances of becoming an MVP, don't be foolish.

2) You can't take the game of basketball in a vacuum. As I stated earlier, in the games Nate has started, and has received 10 more minutes per game, his stats only jumped up a marginal amount. Were Nate to start at PG, he would be running against fresh legs. Coming off the bench, he runs fresh against tired legs. There's a significant difference here. If the man guarding Nate has fresh legs, it takes away a lot of Nate's game. Basketball is unique in that, substituting one guy for another changes a whole lot more than just that one player on the court. It changes defensive and offensive schemes.

Baseball is a sport more suited toward your analysis. In baseball you can see what a team of 9 A-Rods would do merely based on average and stats. In basketball, a team of 5 Yao Mings just doesn't work, it might look like you'll score a lot of points, grab a lot of boards, but it just simply won't work out.

My point is, there are certain non-measurable facts that come with making changes like this to a starting lineup. You can't measure things like fatigue, you can't measure how well Nate is able to take advantage of a tired defense. I realize what the stats say, but the stats in basketball do not tell the whole story. A guy like Shane Battier puts up seemingly marginal numbers, but his impact on defense is something so immeasurable that you really have to sit and analyze game tape to understand it.

I am not criticizing Nate, I love his play (no homo). But there are certain intangibles, impossible to measure by mere statistical analysis that comes into play. I'm not on the floor with the Knicks, but neither are you. We don't know really what kind of leadership or energy or intelligence that Duhon brings to the other 4 guys on the floor. You are right, the offense does appear to run better when Nate is on the floor, but this is also because Nate's speed is amplified.

3) I understand what you are saying about ballers want praise for doing their job, but it's really simple. This team was a joke last year and the year before. They were literally the laughing stock of the league. Now, thanks in large part to Duhon's play early on, we are at least in consideration for a playoff berth. The guy helped this team, at least partially, rise above the level of a joke. Doesn't that deserve some kind of praise?

4) D'Antoni recently admitted that he has worn Duhon down. He admitted Duhon is playing tired, he just appears worn out. I realize this is an excuse, but it's similar to what Joe Torre did in his Yankee years, wearing down his bullpen to where in August the bullpen looked exhausted. At the same time, people criticized the members of the bullpen for playing poorly. D'Antoni has admitted fault here and has subsequently cut Duhon's minutes.

Alright, let me break it down for you:



1. The eddy comment was just an exageration, black. what I meant with it was that duhons 20 assist game is of no value. Now if he was doing that on a consistent basis, then you have a case.

2. Your giving me numbers in your second point. Stats aside, what nate would bring is the energy that duhon lacks.


Nate is one of the fastest and most agile ballers in the league. Don't you think the opposing starting PG would be more fatigued from having to guard nate instead of duhon? Duhon keeps the opponent well-rested. Nate coming off the bench was good, but starting him would be better.


You also contradict yourself with point #2. You talk about how intangibles are important, yet in this thread you mentioned duhons 20+ assist game and his averages of 12 and 7 many times.


3. Duhon was a part of our success but he was not the major part. We can thank D'antoni for being that. As for praising, even a-rod gets shitted on when playing bad and he's a first ballot hall-of-famer. If duhon would be consistent with good games then maybe we praise him. But with him its on and off (he's been off for the last month). So no praise is due.


4. Cutting his minutes is OK, but sitting him on the bench is even better. Excuses are for the weak. He should play hurt and stop bitchin'.


So you see, backing up duhon is a waste of time for you, Kblack. Don't waste your time and energy on our future back up point guard.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Alright, let me break it down for you:

1. The eddy comment was just an exageration, black. what I meant with it was that duhons 20 assist game is of no value. Now if he was doing that on a consistent basis, then you have a case.

Of course it's of some value. It shows that Duhon has at least the potential, when things go right, Duhon can be one of the most productive PGs in the league. I know it hasn't happened consistently, but it shows he's not complete inept as you would have me believe.

2. Your giving me numbers in your second point. Stats aside, what nate would bring is the energy that duhon lacks.


Nate is one of the fastest and most agile ballers in the league. Don't you think the opposing starting PG would be more fatigued from having to guard nate instead of duhon? Duhon keeps the opponent well-rested. Nate coming off the bench was good, but starting him would be better.


You also contradict yourself with point #2. You talk about how intangibles are important, yet in this thread you mentioned duhons 20+ assist game and his averages of 12 and 7 many times.

And intangibles are important. Look, would you rather have a 100% Nate run for 30 minutes against a guard at 85% or 100%? In the last 10 games, Nate and Duhon have played the same or a comprable amount of minutes. Nate runs past guards who are slightly fatigued or are the backup. Even if Duhon doesn't wear down the defense, there's significant running in basketball, and people get tired. Bringing Nate off the bench amplifies his best attribute: his speed, because the other guys on the floor are tired. Starting him neutralizes, at least partially, his best attribute.

It's really simple, you can play Nate, who is explosive, against the other team's starter at 100% or you can play nate, who is explosive, against the other team's starter at around 85% and that starter's backup. Some players (see: Manu Ginobli) are just better suited to come off the bench. I think Nate is one of those players.

I didn't contradict myself because I didn't say stats were UNimportant, I just said that they don't tell the whole story. In the case of replacing Nate for Duhon, they do not. If I were to say "stats don't matter at all", that would then be a contradiction. Please look up the definition of words such as contradiction before using them.


3. Duhon was a part of our success but he was not the major part. We can thank D'antoni for being that. As for praising, even a-rod gets shitted on when playing bad and he's a first ballot hall-of-famer. If duhon would be consistent with good games then maybe we praise him. But with him its on and off (he's been off for the last month). So no praise is due.

So he was A part of our success, which is what I said. Did I say he was solely responsible for early success? No I did not. Don't put words in my mouth.

4. Cutting his minutes is OK, but sitting him on the bench is even better. Excuses are for the weak. He should play hurt and stop bitchin'.

Excuses like, "Stephon Marbury never had a team around him"? Seems like a double standard. Look, D'Antoni has admitted that Duhon's play was partially his fault. You want Nate to play all 48 minutes? That will just tire him out too.

You seem to be a lot of talk, you think you could go run around out there against NBA opponents for 40 minutes a game and play hurt and on top of that be expected to produce big time numbers? Don't give me "I'm not an NBA player", because after all "Excuses are for the weak".
 

Red

TYPE-A
Duhon is garbage. A stop gap bench player, worn down due to the stubborn decisions of another Knick coach. D'Antoni had Marbury, N8, Roberson on the bench and could of substituted accordingly, instead he over-played Duhon and now Duhon's lack of skill and athleticism are on display. Not surprised.

Can't blame Duhon, he doesn't make the decisions.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Duhon is garbage. A stop gap bench player, worn down due to the stubborn decisions of another Knick coach. D'Antoni had Marbury, N8, Roberson on the bench and could of substituted accordingly, instead he over-played Duhon and now Duhon's lack of skill and athleticism are on display. Not surprised.

Can't blame Duhon, he doesn't make the decisions.

Right, the rotation should have had Anthony Roberson and Mardy Collins playing more minutes and Duhon seeing none. That makes sense
 

Red

TYPE-A
Marbury wasn't on the bench...you silly boy...

To start the season he was. {But I know what you mean}

Chris Duhon owned the first-half MVP for the Knicks this season. He quickly grasped
D'Antoni's system, thrived in the floor general roll and was one of the league's most efficient and effective point guards through the holiday season.

But his game has noticably, and quickly, deteriorated in the second half to the point where Mike D'Antoni didn't even use his starting point guard for most of the second half and none of the final 10 minutes of Saturday's game.

Duhon, who used to regularly log 40-to-48 minutes a game for D'Antoni earlier in the season, played just 25:44 and had five points and three assists with three turnovers. He now has 30 turnovers in his past seven games, which is a concerning average of 4.2 per game.

The former Dukie is also struggling with his shooting -- 22 for 56 (39.2 percent) from the floor over the past seven games -- which, along with the turnovers, points to fatigue. And that doesn't bode well for the Knicks, with seven back-to-backs (including this weekend's, which ends tonight against the Nets).

D'Antoni, who earlier in the season said Coach K told him Duhon never gets tired, pointed to Duhon's lack of "pop" and "pep" in his game on Saturday. So is it a result of Duhon, a former backup in Chicago, breaking down from the heavy workload in the first half of the season? Or is it the effects of opposing defenses focusing on stopping him and the pick-and-roll with David Lee, which had been so effective through the middle part of the season?

"You'll have to ask him about that, I don't know," D'Antoni said of his usually-reliable (and hand-picked) point guard.

Duhon spoke in general, though pointed, terms when he said, "We, for whatever reason, didn't have the energy . . . It was tough to win when you don't play with a lot of energy."

Duhon has played with a sore back for most of the entire season. You often see him trying to stretch it before games and it's impossible not to notice his lack of explosiveness on drives to the basket (as a result, he almost always will look to pass on the pick-and-roll play, which opponents have picked up on).

But this lack of durability has to be an issue to discuss during the offseason, when Donnie Walsh and Mike D'Antoni talk about what to do with the roster going forward. If you're looking for desperately-needed leadership, Jason Kidd will be a free agent this summer and likely could be had for the mid-level and there's also a decision the capped-out 76ers need to make on free agent Andre Miller.

And, of course, the Phoenix Suns have a decision to make on Steve Nash, for whom the team has a $13M option for next season. Will they try to extend him or will they decide to part ways with the former two-time MVP?

As for an under-the-radar name to consider, keep an eye on Milwaukee's Ramon Sessions. He's done an outstanding job for Scott Skiles and the Bucks and his athleticism, defense, shooting and playmaking ability make him a potential target with the MLE.

[Please, Fixers, no one mention free agent Allen Iverson as an option. Not even a consideration.]

Nate obviously benefits from Duhon's struggles because he reaps the minutes, but is anyone else getting the sense that less is more with N8 the Gr8? As his popularity and role have increased simultaneously this season, so have his extra-curricular activities. The chest-thumping and the primal screams are one thing, but Robinson is starting to wear out veteran officials with his constant chatter. Joe Forte, one of the best referees the NBA has, T'd him up in the second quarter against Charlotte for making a hand gesture to show how he was fouled and continued to verbally make his case while running back on defense. Forte didn't like the visual and slapped him with his ninth technical of the season. It was also Nate's third in the past two weeks.

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/blog/
 
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