Official Jordan Hill Thread

JayJ44

Starter
Chris Bosh, Amare, and KG are fluid on the court. Hill is clumsy and mechanical. Hill doesn't play smart. He commits dumb fouls, and isn't a very good one-on-one defender. He's athletic, so he's a good weak side defender. But he doesn't know how to use his body on defense. Very Chris Wilcox like.

These comparisons to Bosh and Amare are really ridiculous. Amare is arguably the most explosive guy in the NBA. Hill is athletic but not on his level. Bosh is a skilled offensive player. Hill is a clumsy offensive player, with little post moves or offensive polish.

I'm not trying to bash Hill. He's a Knick, so I support him. But people thinking he will be a franchise player, or even an all-star caliber player, will be disappointed. I honestly see him as a good role player, to bring energy off the bench. I truly hope he proves me wrong, and develops into a franchise caliber player. But I don't see it.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Chris Bosh, Amare, and KG are fluid on the court. Hill is clumsy and mechanical. Hill doesn't play smart. He commits dumb fouls, and isn't a very good one-on-one defender. He's athletic, so he's a good weak side defender. But he doesn't know how to use his body on defense. Very Chris Wilcox like.

These comparisons to Bosh and Amare are really ridiculous. Amare is arguably the most explosive guy in the NBA. Hill is athletic but not on his level. Bosh is a skilled offensive player. Hill is a clumsy offensive player, with little post moves or offensive polish.

I'm not trying to bash Hill. He's a Knick, so I support him. But people thinking he will be a franchise player, or even an all-star caliber player, will be disappointed. I honestly see him as a good role player, to bring energy off the bench. I truly hope he proves me wrong, and develops into a franchise caliber player. But I don't see it.

You are comparing a rookie just drafted to seasoned veterans who have matured already and reached their potential. Of course he is not on their level YET and may not EVER be on their level but the similarities at this point in their careers is easy to see.

The Knicks are due up for a sleeper star to be drafted and Hill just might fit the bill. He has enormous upside and a tremendous body and athleticism. He started playing organized b ball in the 9th grade and missed his junior year of HS because of grades. The dude is no where near his ceiling and is very similar to Aamre at this stage.

BTW, he is not clumsy and is showing great footwork in his workouts. What he lacks is polish and a left hand. Both can be and will be taught. In our system this guy is going to be a beast. It's obviously my prediction and I could be wrong but my predictions are in no way outlandish.

Just watch the vidz!
 

JayJ44

Starter
You are comparing a rookie just drafted to seasoned veterans who have matured already and reached their potential. Of course he is not on their level YET and may not EVER be on their level but the similarities at this point in their careers is easy to see.

The Knicks are due up for a sleeper star to be drafted and Hill just might fit the bill. He has enormous upside and a tremendous body and athleticism. He started playing organized b ball in the 9th grade and missed his junior year of HS because of grades. The dude is no where near his ceiling and is very similar to Aamre at this stage.

BTW, he is not clumsy and is showing great footwork in his workouts. What he lacks is polish and a left hand. Both can be and will be taught. In our system this guy is going to be a beast. It's obviously my prediction and I could be wrong but my predictions are in no way outlandish.

Just watch the vidz!

Hill can't be compared to Amare coming out of high school. Amare was a beast, even when he was in high school. Hill is weak, especially in his lower body. He was able to bully around the guys in college, but he won't be able to that at the next level. It's a lot easier to show great footwork in workouts, rather than in actual games. In his games in Arizona, he showed that he's clumsy and mechanical. Some quotes from draft express:

Jordan Hill had another productive game that did a good job highlighting his strengths as a prospect, as well as his shortcomings. One on hand he displayed his excellent athleticism with a number of terrific finishes off pick and roll plays and in transition, running the floor extremely well and exploding off the ground in impressive fashion. He also knocked down a 20 foot jump-shot, the most range we?ve seen him show thus far, and converted on a decent looking turnaround jumper in the post.

On the other hand, Hill?s poor skill-level was very much evident in this game, as he looked very raw and mechanical trying to post up Cleveland State?s undersized defenders in the post, being stripped on one possession and also throwing up some ugly looking bricks. You would have expected him to dominate this game considering the huge advantage he holds in terms of size/athleticism against the 6-5 and 6-6 big men he went up against, but he really wasn?t able to consistently take advantage of his natural gifts. Defensively, Hill has potential but clearly is lacking in the fundamentals department, having a hard time rotating over effectively to guard the paint and picking up some questionable fouls. His basketball IQ is clearly nothing to write home about, and unless he?s able to significantly improve his skill-level over the next few years (not out of the question considering how far he?s come), he looks a lot more likely to develop into a solid energy guy/role-player rather than the game-changing presence you might expect from a potential top-5 pick. With that in mind, the fact that his rebounding rate has fallen significantly recently, going from over averaging over 12 boards per contest in the first 20 games, to just 9.3 rebounds in last 12 games, is not a great sign.

What good are natural gifts if he doesn't know how to use them? We know he's athletic and he can shoot, but he hasn't shown he can use that to his advantage. I don't like these project bigmen, who are drafted purely off of physical tools. They rarely work out well. Statistically, it seems Hill is merely an average player:

Looking over the numbers of our top power forwards, we noticed a number of players who are projected as lottery picks that don?t look the part on paper. Sitting just behind Griffin in our rankings, we find Jordan Hill, who?s overall Points Per Possession of.94 places him slightly below the mean of .98, not quite what one would expect from a potential top-5 draft pick. Looking deeper, we realize that Hill ranks right around the average in a number of areas. He surprisingly connects on just 63.87% of his finishing opportunities not including post ups, and only scores on 49.6% of his logged possessions ?sitting just off the mean in both categories. Much of Hill?s lack of efficiency can be attributed to the fact that he only gets fouled on 10.4% of his possessions and gets very few touches in transition (16th at 1.1 Pos/g) and basket cut situations (15th at 1.8), two scenarios where he?s effective ( 1.33 and 1.43 PPP respectively). The other factor working against Hill is his jumper, which we?ll discuss later.

Clearly teams are valuing Hill?s upside quite a bit. He?s already a productive rebounder and has a lot of potential long-term as a defender, but his offense doesn?t stand out amongst his peers. He?s raw, but some teams see his physical profile and athleticism and assume he will be a player that develops into a bigger threat on the next level.

You know what they say, when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. Jeff Goodman from Fox sports on Hill:

I saw Hill play more than most people. He is very raw and athletic, but he is mechanical. In an ordinary year, Hill goes in the 20?s. He is a hit-or-miss prospect. I do not know if he can handle NY. He is a deep south kid, and he might be eaten up in NY. As a defender, Hill is not very smart. He leaves his guys open on a block sometimes and allows for easy lay-ups. He is just okay as a defender. He?ll help as a shot-blocker though. Hill is foul prone at times. He commits dumb reach-in fouls consistently. He doesn?t know how to use his body well. I see Hill as more of a good big man off the bench.
http://www.theknicksblog.com/2009/06/26/foxsports-jeff-goodman-on-draft-trades-etc/

I'm more than willing to give him a chance. But there's overwhelming evidence that Hill will be a bust.
 

LJ4ptplay

Starter
People seem to get excited when they hear 6'10" and athletic. There's more to a good big man in the NBA than just size and athleticism.
 

mafra

Legend
poor mans chris bosh

i really didnt get this draft. the glaring weakness coming in was center and 2 guard and we ended up with a backup combo guard not really starting material and created yet another log jam at forward

were potentially losing a 4 and 1 so we draft to replace the 4 and 1 spots. but fail to adress the missing pieces at the 2 and 5 positions

were just telling everyone sit back and wait for 2010 yet were going to potentially yield a worse team then this season without the reward of a pick. then were gonna expect a superstar to want to come and play here with what we have

we better have enough bread to sign 2 stars for sure cause if not no one is gonna be eager to come. and even if they 1 star wont make with what is left into a legit team

To be fair, I think we have to wait and see what happens during free agency (and with trades) before we see what product DW throws out there for the 2009 campaign, and what that means for 2010.

Jordan Hill was the 2nd rated big man in this draft. He can play PF & C in D'ant's system. Yes, we replace Lee with Hill.... BUT, we'll also get something for D-Lee as we send him somewhere.... BUT, it's more than that.

The Knicks hope Hill is somewhere between Boris Diaw & Amare Stoudmire. Lee was never a guy who fit this system, and he was really bad on defense, and had zero offfensive game when it mattered most.

Lee has a better jump shot, is more athletic, is cheaper, taller (?) and is a guy who has improved every uear, and like Lee is a workhorse who is willing to put in the ffort to improve.

NOW, we could have grabbed Henderson instead. He could have been our Bell... Our SG. BUT, to be honest, as a Duke fan, Henderson suffers with fatigue (asthma) and is not really a can't-miss type guy... So, when in doubt go BIG. Why not?

Like you.... I was ticked when they called Hill's name. After Harden got selected 3rd, I thought it was a LOCK we were getting either Evans, Rubio, Curry or Flynn. It didn't work out.... NO sense reaching at 8.... NEVER A BAD THING to pick the 2nd best big man in any draft.

As for Toney Douglas... The kid is good. ACC leading scorer, defensive player of the year, beat UNC, played great against the tough competition.... He's a more all-around player than Nate, and cheaper....

SO, it doesn't hurt replacing Nate & Lee with Douglas & Hill. Nate & Lee were 2 of our best players, so they needed to be replaced. You might even say, the two new chaps are better fits for our system, and both play better defense.

LOOK AT IT THIS WAY: Being we drafted at 8 & 29.... We should be PSYCHED we got these two guys.... their talent is better than where they were drafted. You cannot complain.

PLUS, we did address the C position: we got Darko. We'll probably sign Gortat, and that gives us three Cs (if you count Curry).

We still need a PG & a SG... but, what was really available to us? AND, we have to wait and see what comes next month.

SO, Henderson might turn out to be a solid player, & Hill a bust. Those are the risks.... BUT, Henderson would have been a reach at 8.... Hill was not.
 

mafra

Legend
Hill can't be compared to Amare coming out of high school. Amare was a beast, even when he was in high school. Hill is weak, especially in his lower body. He was able to bully around the guys in college, but he won't be able to that at the next level. It's a lot easier to show great footwork in workouts, rather than in actual games. In his games in Arizona, he showed that he's clumsy and mechanical. Some quotes from draft express:



What good are natural gifts if he doesn't know how to use them? We know he's athletic and he can shoot, but he hasn't shown he can use that to his advantage. I don't like these project bigmen, who are drafted purely off of physical tools. They rarely work out well. Statistically, it seems Hill is merely an average player:



You know what they say, when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. Jeff Goodman from Fox sports on Hill:


http://www.theknicksblog.com/2009/06/26/foxsports-jeff-goodman-on-draft-trades-etc/

I'm more than willing to give him a chance. But there's overwhelming evidence that Hill will be a bust.

I was hoping GSW took Hill, so we would get Curry... After Curry went, I was sort of pulling for Henderson. He would have been the safe pick.... not sexy or excellent, but safe.

To me, Hill is not Amare, but he mgiht be a Diaw. If we get something in between we did well. Again, not much left for us to pick from. Why not grab the #2 Big man than the 5th PG?

Terrence Williams would have made sense... BUT, like Henderson... not really worth the #8 selection.

At least we can say we got one of the guys we wanted.... We'll see if it works. BUT, I do not think this kid will crumble. He's sounds like he's tougher than some people thing.

AND, it might amaze people (especially after the IT years).... BUT, just maybe we coach a player up and help them improve?

Darko-Hill are better than what we had last year, at least in D'ant's system.
 

SSj4Wingzero

All Star
Yeah everybody keeps saying in a draft rich with PGs we should've taken a PG but they seem to ignore the fact that all the PGs the Knicks brass wanted were gone by the time it was our turn to draft. The 1-7 choices couldn't have gone any worse than they did. What were the odds of Flynn, Rubio, Curry, AND Evans all being selected before #8?
 

JayJ44

Starter
I was hoping GSW took Hill, so we would get Curry... After Curry went, I was sort of pulling for Henderson. He would have been the safe pick.... not sexy or excellent, but safe.

To me, Hill is not Amare, but he mgiht be a Diaw. If we get something in between we did well. Again, not much left for us to pick from. Why not grab the #2 Big man than the 5th PG?

Terrence Williams would have made sense... BUT, like Henderson... not really worth the #8 selection.

At least we can say we got one of the guys we wanted.... We'll see if it works. BUT, I do not think this kid will crumble. He's sounds like he's tougher than some people thing.

AND, it might amaze people (especially after the IT years).... BUT, just maybe we coach a player up and help them improve?

Darko-Hill are better than what we had last year, at least in D'ant's system.


I would have liked Williams or Henderson. I don't buy this stuff "not worth" the 8th pick. If there's a player you think fits well on your team, and you think will be a good player, who cares where he's projected to go?

Diaw? Diaw was a point forward, with ball handling skills and court vision. Hill is more of a post player. There nothing alike.

Actually, I'm not sure Hill can handle NYC. He's from the South, maybe the big city is too much for him. Plus, I've heard reports that he likes to party. NYC might have too many distractions for him.

Hopefully the coaching staff will help him improve. But he has SO much work to do in order to be an elite player. I rather draft guys who are NBA ready, rather than project big men who will take 5 years to reach their potential.
 

mafra

Legend
I would have liked Williams or Henderson. I don't buy this stuff "not worth" the 8th pick. If there's a player you think fits well on your team, and you think will be a good player, who cares where he's projected to go?

Diaw? Diaw was a point forward, with ball handling skills and court vision. Hill is more of a post player. There nothing alike.

Actually, I'm not sure Hill can handle NYC. He's from the South, maybe the big city is too much for him. Plus, I've heard reports that he likes to party. NYC might have too many distractions for him.

Hopefully the coaching staff will help him improve. But he has SO much work to do in order to be an elite player. I rather draft guys who are NBA ready, rather than project big men who will take 5 years to reach their potential.

"If Hill's play is even half as good as his personal story, he's going to be one tough competitor. The 6-10 power forward fought his way to the top of the NBA's draft class after surviving a difficult childhood that began when his mother died of breast cancer when he was 3.

His father gave up a career as a cross-country truck driver to care for Jordan and his siblings, but a back injury suffered while he was working for South Carolina's Department of Transportation left the family struggling to live off social security and disability checks. Hill's father went back to trucking and others pitched in to help out. Jordan had four residences and six primary caregivers before finishing high school.

"I went though a lot. It's tough," Hill said after donning a Knicks cap for the first time. "I managed to have the right people behind me and the right supporting cast behind me."

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spbarb2612921202jun25,0,1416580.column

Diaw was a few inches smaller, and yes had a better handle.... Could also shoot the 3. I was thinking about impact, and contributions.... not so much their style of game.

ANYWAY.... let's not be racist, and think a small country hick cannot handle the big city... I think growing up w/out a mother is tougher than hearing chorus of boos b/c of a bad game or two.

HIll fought and earned everything he now has; while Henderson was the son of an NBA player. I LOVE DUKE, and even I say henderson is no lock to be a solid NBA player. I like him, wanted him, but didn;t think he fit this style-tempo D'ant runs. Henderson needs his rest.

I also liked Terrence Williams and Ty Lawson.

I threw up in my mouth a little when I heard HIll's name.

I just think you can't argue with the thinking- if 2-5 guys have their pros/cons, then go BIG.... Can't go wrong.

NOW, if he likes to party.... then there might be trouble. This pick will only work if he works to improve his game... BEEF UP.... all that.
 

JayJ44

Starter
"If Hill's play is even half as good as his personal story, he's going to be one tough competitor. The 6-10 power forward fought his way to the top of the NBA's draft class after surviving a difficult childhood that began when his mother died of breast cancer when he was 3.

His father gave up a career as a cross-country truck driver to care for Jordan and his siblings, but a back injury suffered while he was working for South Carolina's Department of Transportation left the family struggling to live off social security and disability checks. Hill's father went back to trucking and others pitched in to help out. Jordan had four residences and six primary caregivers before finishing high school.

"I went though a lot. It's tough," Hill said after donning a Knicks cap for the first time. "I managed to have the right people behind me and the right supporting cast behind me."

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spbarb2612921202jun25,0,1416580.column

Diaw was a few inches smaller, and yes had a better handle.... Could also shoot the 3. I was thinking about impact, and contributions.... not so much their style of game.

ANYWAY.... let's not be racist, and think a small country hick cannot handle the big city... I think growing up w/out a mother is tougher than hearing chorus of boos b/c of a bad game or two.

HIll fought and earned everything he now has; while Henderson was the son of an NBA player. I LOVE DUKE, and even I say henderson is no lock to be a solid NBA player. I like him, wanted him, but didn;t think he fit this style-tempo D'ant runs. Henderson needs his rest.

I also liked Terrence Williams and Ty Lawson.

I threw up in my mouth a little when I heard HIll's name.

I just think you can't argue with the thinking- if 2-5 guys have their pros/cons, then go BIG.... Can't go wrong.

NOW, if he likes to party.... then there might be trouble. This pick will only work if he works to improve his game... BEEF UP.... all that.

Racist? Racism=prejudiced against one's ethnicity. I just think he might not be prepared for NYC, judging from where he's from. It's not just getting booed. It's a huge culture shock coming from the South to one of the biggest cities in the world. I'm not saying that in and of itself will make him a bad player, it's just something to think about. I feel sorry for him because of his past, but that doesn't necessarily prepare him for what lies ahead in NYC.

Yeah, Henderson definitely has his flaws too. I would of preferred Terrance Williams over him, and Ty Lawson over both of them.

But it depends what kind of cons a prospect has. Hill's cons scream bust. Foul prone, low basketball IQ, little offensive polish, lack of defensive fundamentals, very little passing skills. A guy like Ty Lawson's cons are things like height, which can easily be overcome.
 

Knicker23

Benchwarmer
yah that makes a lot of sense. you can teach lawson to grow 5 inches, he'll be able to do that real quick...

quit your bitching already
 

JayJ44

Starter
yah that makes a lot of sense. you can teach lawson to grow 5 inches, he'll be able to do that real quick...

quit your bitching already

He doesn't need to grow 5 inches dumbass. The best PG in the world, CP3, is around the same height.

It's a forum. I'm not allowed to discuss our draft pick? stfu
 

mafra

Legend
Racist? Racism=prejudiced against one's ethnicity. I just think he might not be prepared for NYC, judging from where he's from. It's not just getting booed. It's a huge culture shock coming from the South to one of the biggest cities in the world. I'm not saying that in and of itself will make him a bad player, it's just something to think about. I feel sorry for him because of his past, but that doesn't necessarily prepare him for what lies ahead in NYC.

Yeah, Henderson definitely has his flaws too. I would of preferred Terrance Williams over him, and Ty Lawson over both of them.

But it depends what kind of cons a prospect has. Hill's cons scream bust. Foul prone, low basketball IQ, little offensive polish, lack of defensive fundamentals, very little passing skills. A guy like Ty Lawson's cons are things like height, which can easily be overcome.

I hear 'ya. I cringed when I heard Jordan Hill. I guess it could be worse, it might have been Jrue Holiday.

The good news, it's not like last year when Gordan was selected with the next pick. I mean, I liked Williams & Henderson as well, but it's not like they were taken 9th/10th.... They did fall back a few slots, which tells me a few other teams didn't rank them highly either.

Williams is good but is he a fit for this team, in this system? Maybe, maybe not. Henderson might have been a better fit, but TRUST ME, D'ant knows coach K really well- I'm sure they labored over this pick.

They thought HIll was the better fit.... the better player. I'm trying to look past all the negative flaws in Hill's game and focus on what he does do- he runs the floor really well, he has a mid-range jump shot and he's a quality help defender who can block shots.

The Knicks needed all those traots, and with Lee likely headed out the door, they needed a PF. A scoring big is harder to find that a PG, and their are plenty of options for the Knicks.

I mean, what if the felt/knew.... all along.... Rubio was being traded to them?
 

JayJ44

Starter
I hear 'ya. I cringed when I heard Jordan Hill. I guess it could be worse, it might have been Jrue Holiday.

The good news, it's not like last year when Gordan was selected with the next pick. I mean, I liked Williams & Henderson as well, but it's not like they were taken 9th/10th.... They did fall back a few slots, which tells me a few other teams didn't rank them highly either.

Williams is good but is he a fit for this team, in this system? Maybe, maybe not. Henderson might have been a better fit, but TRUST ME, D'ant knows coach K really well- I'm sure they labored over this pick.

They thought HIll was the better fit.... the better player. I'm trying to look past all the negative flaws in Hill's game and focus on what he does do- he runs the floor really well, he has a mid-range jump shot and he's a quality help defender who can block shots.

The Knicks needed all those traots, and with Lee likely headed out the door, they needed a PF. A scoring big is harder to find that a PG, and their are plenty of options for the Knicks.

I mean, what if the felt/knew.... all along.... Rubio was being traded to them?

I'll try to be optimistic about Hill. You're right, at least we didn't pick Holiday. We'll see how Hill does in summer league, preseason etc. It does look like we're gonna end up with Rubio, so we're in pretty good shape. Assuming we get Rubio, our lineup looks like this:

PG-Rubio
SG- Hughes?
SF- Gallo
PF- Hill
C- Darko

Not too bad.
 

mafra

Legend
Id rather keep Chandler if we have the ability


I'm starting to think we might get Rubio for a package like:

Nate Robinson
Larry Hughes or Al Harrington
Cutino Mobley
1st rounder in 2011

MIN will get a 1st rounder back; they'll also get to wipe out 9 mil from the books this year.... They could use that money to go sign a free agent (maybe HT from ORL?)...

It probably boils down to who they like more Nate or Lee, Hughes or Harrington....

I'm sure we could do this w/out Chandler. Maybe.
 

SSj4Wingzero

All Star
All that for Rubio?

Aren't there rules about how salaries have to match up in an NBA trade? We'd probably get Etan Thomas or somebody like that I assume. But yeah Larry Hughes and Cuttino Mobley make absolutely excellent sense for the Timberwolves; the T-Wolves need a 2 guard and Mobley's contract is basically like handing them 9 million dollars which they could use to sign Turkoglu as a SF like you said. Would you trade a draft pick for Turkoglu and Larry Hughes? Who wouldn't? Especially when those two players fill your BIGGEST NEEDS

If Minnesota gets a starting lineup of:

PG - Flynn
SG - Hughes
SF - Turkoglu
PF - Jefferson
C - Love

(I'm not sure whom they play at PF and C but whatever). That'd be quite the intimidating starting lineup if I do say so myself, that'd easily throw them into playoff contention. Sigh, hopefully Kahn pulls the trigger on it, he has little to gain by sitting around and waiting for two years for Rubio when he can get himself Larry Hughes, Turkoglu, and Nate Robinson, three players who fill glaringly huge gaps in the T-Wolves' lineup
 

mafra

Legend
I think that's the extent NY will go... NO MORE. I doubt they even toss in Chandler into the mix- from what we've read, the Knicks don't love Rubio.... Sure, they'll pursue him but they want go ga-ga and druel over him.

SO, they wont beg.
 

LOIOSH30

Benchwarmer
I'm starting to think we might get Rubio for a package like:

Nate Robinson
Larry Hughes or Al Harrington
Cutino Mobley
1st rounder in 2011

MIN will get a 1st rounder back; they'll also get to wipe out 9 mil from the books this year.... They could use that money to go sign a free agent (maybe HT from ORL?)...

It probably boils down to who they like more Nate or Lee, Hughes or Harrington....

I'm sure we could do this w/out Chandler. Maybe.




As good as that sounds, it won't work. The Knicks would have to take back 25+ million in salaries...The Wolves would be giving up half their team and Al Jefferson, which obviously they won't do.

The only way we get Rubio is to S&T Nate and Will, for Rubio and someone like Cardinal or Corey Brewer...
 

smokes

Huge Member
As good as that sounds, it won't work. The Knicks would have to take back 25+ million in salaries...The Wolves would be giving up half their team and Al Jefferson, which obviously they won't do.

The only way we get Rubio is to S&T Nate and Will, for Rubio and someone like Cardinal or Corey Brewer...

Nah, Etan Thomas has a 7.5 mil contract that can be used to balance.
 
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